OPINION – Democrats’ healthcare and small business

Cal Beverly's picture

Part 2 of the continuing horror

I’m reading the thousand-plus-page House healthcare act from the perspective of a small-business person running a business of under 20 employees.

So I’m coming to the project with this out-in-the-open bias: How is this proposed change in healthcare going to affect one small company, its employees, me and my family?

I said last week that the bill yet to be voted on by the full House is even worse than its opponents have painted it to be.

In the first few pages, I’ve read that the bill’s purpose is to “set standards guaranteeing access to affordable coverage, essential benefits, and other consumer protections.”

What’s “affordable”? A Ferrari is “affordable” to some folks. It’s not “affordable” to me. Should Congress pass a law mandating that the only automobiles allowed to be sold must cost under ... what? $40,000? $30,000? $20,000? See the problem?

If you say, “Well, it’s not the government’s business to set prices for cars,” I’d reply, “Exactly. So why are the Democrats trying to do that very thing for medical care?”

I’ve seen the argument that requiring every American to submit to either paying for a health policy or paying a tax penalty in lieu of that coverage is analogous to the state requiring every driver to possess a minimum amount of automobile liability insurance.

That’s a false argument. If I choose not to own or operate a car — relying on the much ballyhooed “public transit” option — no law is going to force me to pay for car insurance. Driving is considered a “privilege,” allowing the state to require insurance.

Healthcare coverage is no more a “privilege” than life insurance coverage is, however wise it might be to carry life coverage.

And why has healthcare suddenly become a “right,” occupying a higher notch even than the also recently discovered “right” to housing?

Where is such a “right” enshrined in our nation’s constitution? A right is something that you innately possess, to exercise or not to exercise as you choose. A right is not something for which you can present a bill to a government and demand payment for your “right” from other citizens, even if those other citizens object to paying for your “right.” But I digress.

In pages 15-16 of HR 3200, we’ve discovered that the current health plan that my business partially pays for must — within five years — meet the Democrat Commissar’s standards (see last week’s installment for explanations of the Commissar and her vast powers).

We’ve found that my current plan is grandfathered in for those five years, with an important exception: After HR3200 becomes law, my health plan cannot enroll any additional employee that I may hire.

So what happens to the new employees? More on that later.

On pages 17-18 is what nobody is telling you: Yes, you can choose whatever plan you can pay for — for five years.

What nobody is saying is this: After year five, “an employment-based health plan in operation as of the day before the first day of [year] one must meet the same requirements as apply to a qualified health benefits plan” as decided by the Commissar.

In other words, all — ALL! — plans must offer essentially the same coverages, with the same benefits and with the same “consumer protections.”

Cookie-cutter plans — and that’s what Obama calls “choice”?

Like Henry Ford famously said about color choices among his early automobiles: “They can have any color they want, so long as it is black.”

Starting on page 19, the bill mandates that insurance companies cannot refuse coverage because of your pre-existing conditions. Then it sets up “insurance rating rules.”

You read correctly: The free market, private system of every company determining its own levels of acceptable risk in exchange for issuing insurance will be against the law.

Instead, the government will now take over that function.

One size fits all. Obama knows best — better than any actuary, better than any insurance company, better than you. The Commissar will enforce this specialized form of government price-fixing.

On pages 21-22, the Commissar and her helpers will “conduct a study of the large group insured and self-insured employer health care markets. Such study shall examine the following:

“(A) The types of employers by key characteristics, including size, that purchase insured products versus those that self-insure.

“(B) The similarities and differences between typical insured and self-insured health plans.

“(C) The financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure by employer size.

“(D) The risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent.

“(E) The extent to which rating rules are likely to cause adverse selection in the large group market or to encourage small and midsize employers to self-insure.”

I quoted that in its entirety because it is so breathtaking in its invasive scope. The Democrats’ Commissar will launch audits of any company she so chooses. Why?

Page 22-23: “Such report shall include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers.”

Starting on page 24, the Commissar will inspect “provider networks” (that’s doctors and hospitals, all of them) to bring these tens of thousands of private businesses into line with the Commissar’s rules.

That is simply breathtaking. To use a favorite teen word: This is an “awesome” expansion of government power over private enterprise.

Beginning on page 25, the Democrats and their appointed Commissar will determine what “essential benefits” will be covered.

No arguments or free market choices, now, you unruly mob of Rush Limbaugh-controlled miscreants. Obama — and his army of bureaucrats — know what benefits you should have and you will get them whether you like them or not.

No messy shopping list of optional benefits and multiple levels of coverages now available under our free market system. Be glad to escape such confusing choices — the Democrats will choose for you.

We examined the Health Benefits Advisory Committee (and its admirable inclusion of at least one practicing doctor among its expert panelists) in last week’s installment.

And we covered the “additional consumer protections” last week as well, including the penalty section that allows any employee of just about any size small business to file a federal complaint against the employer under the Consumer Product Safety Act (!).

I wonder how much my yearly liability insurance premium will get jacked up by this new set of federal healthcare violations risks. No Obama bailout money is available for me to pay that new, increased business expense.

The bill spells out beginning on page 57 the Commissar’s requirements for “financial and administrative transactions.”

That innocuous language will mean that innumerable doctors’ offices and hospitals and clinics will have to line up their billing practices with the new federal regulations. Goodbye, paper; hello, standardized computers — in every medical office, in every state — within five years.

I suspect the Democrats don’t expect tax money to pay for those mandated small-business expenses.

OK, here’s the first really scary personal intrusion part: Page 58.

The medical care billing rules require the following (and this is verbatim from the bill):

“(D) Enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card; ...”

Folks, read that paragraph again and tell me you don’t see a government computer terminal bureaucrat scrutinizing your name, your financial and medical history and your national ID card — while you are standing in line, awaiting her determination — before she allows you to get medical care at that particular doctor’s office.

If that does not qualify as scary, I don’t know what would scare you.

Pressing on to page 65, we find the U.S. government setting up a $10 billion “reinsurance” fund “to assist participating employment-based plans” in paying for health benefits for retirees, spouses and dependents.

Now who are these “retirees” that get such additional government money?

Some of you may have guessed that “union” is the hidden word in this Democrat payoff. Yep, union retirees are more special than other retirees, worthy of receiving specialized added tax “investments.”

The bill on page 80 defines who gets hit in three categories: “Smallest employer” has 10 or fewer employees; “smaller employers” are those small businesses with between 11 and 20 employees; and “larger employers,” which is every other business in America with more than 20 workers.

Here comes another Commissar audit. She will require every business to give exhaustive details of what health benefits the business is offering to its workers, how much it costs and its “affordability” (I guess the Commissar will determine the dollar amount that is presumed to meet the “affordability” standard).

In addition the Commissar will (and this is verbatim) “examine ... the affordability-test standard for access of certain employed individuals to coverage in the Health Insurance Exchange.”

Now, that seems to mean that the nosy Commissar will require workers who decline coverage to explain what their finances are and why they are not participating in ObamaCare.

Section 203 on page 84 gets into the nitty-gritty of what plans may be offered. It’s not complicated:

“Required offering of basic plan — The [insurance company] offers only one basic plan for such service area.”

If the insurer offers a basic plan, then it may offer one — and only one — “enhanced” plan for that service area.

If the insurer offers its one “enhanced” plan, it may also offer one — and only one — “premium” plan for that area.

If the insurer offers its one — and only one — “premium” plan, then it may also offer one or more (!) “premium-plus” plans for that area.

What is a “premium-plus” plan? One that offers “adult oral health and vision care, approved by the Commissioner” (Commissar).

What differentiates the other lower grade plans: something the Democrats call “tiered cost-sharing.” More on that later.

Here’s an interesting little kicker to this section: “The [insurer] shall provide for culturally and linguistically appropriate communication and health services.”

Can’t you just see it now — your insurer sends you your benefits package in all the languages determined to be present in your census tract, from Spanish to Swahili, from Arabic to Zulu. And you’ll meet a swarm of translators required by law to be present at the front desk of every doctor’s office in America.

And Obama is going to save billions and trillions with this plan? But, hey, job creation is job creation, right?

And in Section 205 beginning on page 95: The Commissar “shall establish and carry out an enrollment process for Exchange-eligible individuals and employers, including at community locations ... Such process shall provide for enrollment through means such as the mail, by telephone, electronically, and in person.”

Obama the community organizer, organizes America. Line up in front of Publix and Kroger to get your mandatory federal health ID card issued, on the spot, with your finances checked to see which plan you get.

Don’t want to participate? How about automatic enrollment? The Commissar “shall provide for a process under which individuals who are Exchange-eligible ... are automatically enrolled under an appropriate Exchange-participating health benefits plan. Such process may involve a random assignment or some other form of assignment that takes into account the health care providers used by the individual involved or such other relevant factors at the Commissioner may specify.”

I can’t make such stuff up. It’s right there in HR 3200, pages 97 and 98, in plain text.

Now comes the part you’ll really love, because it involves taking extra money right out of your paycheck or your company payroll.

On page 109, the Democrats create in the “treasury of the United States a trust fund ... to make payments to operate the Health Insurance Exchange ...”

You might ask, where does that money for this new “trust fund” come from? I can’t make this up; it’s right there in HR 3200:

“(A) Taxes on individuals not obtaining acceptable coverage ...

“(B) Employment taxes on employers not providing acceptable coverage ... relating to employers electing not to provide health benefits.

“(C) Excise tax on failures to meet certain health coverage requirements ... with respect to failure to meet health coverage participation requirements.”

That provides me with an authentic and heart-felt “Oh, my God” moment.

Obama and the Democrats are hell-bent on taxing us into oblivion.

Margaret Thatcher, then prime minister of Great Britain, said, “The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

We have reached only page 111 of 1,017 pages. Can it get any worse? Yes, as you’ll see in my next installment.

— Posted Aug. 13, 2009, 11:53 p.m.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Addendum, Saturday, Aug.8, 2009: A discussion of "rights"

Let’s have a reasoned conversation based just on the facts and the logic of the healthcare reform issue and its philosophical (or ideological) underpinnings.

Buck, you state that the “essence of the debate starts with the notion that ‘affordable and quality healthcare for every American citizen in our country is a right ... not a privilege.’”

I disagree with the starting point (I think the more fundamental debate is the proper role of government in our constitutional republic), but let’s take your argument on its merits.

Who says that healthcare is a right? Is that open to debate with you, or is that kind of a religious position, unassailable by logic or facts or an examination of our country’s history?

But again, taking your position on the merits, let’s define our terms, starting with “right.”

Is it a right of the same type as the 1st amendment right to free speech, or the 2nd amendment right to bear firearms or the 3rd amendment right ... ? Well, you get my point.

If your right to healthcare is a constitutional right, would you please point out where it is expressed in the U.S. Constitution? Or even a federal court ruling?

If healthcare is — on the other hand — an “unenumerated” right that has to be discovered in the Constitution’s “penumbra” by the U.S. Supreme Court, could you specify where that ruling might be found?

I think the answer to the above questions is that nowhere is such a right recognized by our founding document or by our highest court.

So then, if it’s not in the Constitution or our laws (yet), when did such a “right” show up on the American scene?

More to the point, when did you — Buck — discover YOUR right and MY right to — not just any old healthcare, but “affordable” and “quality” healthcare?

Is this a relatively recent right? It must be, because I’ve got gray hair and I don’t remember anybody — and I mean anybody — asserting such a right until very recently. (Gosh, we need a scorecard to keep up with all of these recently discovered “rights.”)

Or is this a “right” that only people of a certain income or ethnicity or general put-upon-ness or down-and-out-ness may rightly possess and not us self-absorbed types?

Did somebody one day discover this healthcare right? I think I may safety assert that George Washington would have been unaware of such a right, as would Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and all those old guys we don’t pay much attention to anymore. I even have a sneaking suspicion that John F. Kennedy would have been unaware of such a “right,” and he was a pretty progressive fellow.

Buck, do you disagree with the argument so far? If so, specifically what do you disagree with and state your logic behind your position.

You said, “You either believe that and embrace the notion, or you don’t.” I totally agree with your assessment in that statement. You assert and I disagree that healthcare is a right.

I point out what should be self-evident to you: You and I can have all the “notions” we choose to indulge, but our respective “notions” don’t rise to the level of “rights” just because we claim them to be rights.

Or just because we harbor the “notion” that we are morally superior to other, less enlightened, self-absorbed folks.

But to take your argument even a farther step, if there is indeed such a “right” as you assert, how may that “right” be enjoyed by all who possess that new unalienable right?

Like my “cars and healthcare” analogy, Buck, I’ll alert you to this: the following is an analogy.

Suppose that I assert that my 1st amendment right to print what I believe doesn’t end at MY pocketbook.

Suppose I assert that, in furtherance of my 1st amendment right, I must confiscate — let’s say — $20 a week from your bank account so that I may enjoy my 1st amendment right to its fullest extent.

I set $20 because I want to remain “affordable” but I also want my asserted product to be what I consider “quality.”

(By the way, old self-absorbed “I” made that determination about what’s “affordable” and what’s “quality.” You didn’t get to have a say in that determination, did you? How do you feel about that?)

Now further suppose I have sufficient enforcement power to take your $20 a week whether you wish to give it to me or not and that you have no recourse but to submit and let me have it.

After all, it’s only $20 a week. You spend that much a week on morally superior coffee. But your coffee right is inferior to my 1st amendment right and need. You know — the greater good.

So, Buck, what’s wrong with this picture?

Do you really think my “right” extends so far as to require money out of your pocket, without your consent?

Now remember, the rules of this game — which power-hungry and self-absorbed “I” set without any input from you — don’t allow you to resist my taking of your money for my “rightful” purposes.

If the scenario I described above were to really happen, do you suppose you might become a strong advocate of the 2nd amendment and take strong measures to keep me from taking your $20 a week, from here on out, for the rest of your life?

I assert, Buck, that you and your liberal friends on this thread cannot make a coherent, logical, fact-based argument to prove that healthcare is an unalienable right (you remember “unalienable,” don’t you?).

And beyond that, you cannot assert a moral basis for your right to reach into my pocket to steal my money in order for you to pay for treating your ingrown toenail.

You assert a “greater good.” Who gets to determine that “greater good”? Liberals who want to take my money to make themselves feel better about themselves as morally superior to all us self-absorbed moral midgets?

I assert a greater good is freedom of the individual from the coercive and often foolishly ignorant and destructive power of the state — Mr. Obama and the Democrats being the visible agents of such misguided power.

I assert that freedom from the state’s arbitrary and unbridled power is a right — one of those unalienable ones — that is greater than your johnny-come-lately “right” of affordable healthcare at my expense.

If you and your friends have a higher “right” than freedom, then appeal to it and declare its basis.

Otherwise, another one of those old, old rights is your right to feel morally superior to others who disagree with you. It is one of those lesser “rights” nestled in the much bigger one called “freedom.”

From my “self-absorbed” perspective, I think such moral superiority more likely is smug self-righteousness. But, hey, you’re free to disagree.

[The above is a copy of a comment by the author in this thread.]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

If healthcare is neither a right nor a privilege, then what is it? It is a commodity

Healthcare is an artificial construct, a quick policy shorthand for a vast and intricate interrelated set of of products, services, buying and selling decisions and capital.

Individual pieces of that construct are in fact just like bread and milk and truck driving and wholesalers and farmers and buyers and sellers, etc. — individual commodities and individual services offered for sale in a capitalistic free-market economy.

Do you have a "right" to bread? Do you have a privilege to eat bread you neither bought nor baked yourself?

Make an unemotional, fact- and logic-based case for your general and unfettered right or privilege to walk into a grocery store and steal a jug of milk without paying for it.

If you don't have a "right" to something as basic as bread (find that in the Constitution) why do you have a right to free or taxpayer-subsidized services and products from these millions of individual sellers of their services and products?

How should healthcare be distributed? The same way bread and milk are distributed: The individual with the product or service reaches an uncoerced agreement to sell the product or service to the willing buyer at a mutually agreed-upon price.

That's called free-market capitalism. That's what got us this amazing "healthcare" system in the first place.

Charity for truly needy cases should likewise be an individual, noncoerced decision. You have no God-given or otherwise-given "right" to reach into my pocket to take what I worked for and convert it to your own uses without my permission. If I deny permission, get your hand out of my pocket.

My argument is based on the concepts of individual freedom and individual property rights. What is yours based on?

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merleliz's picture
Submitted by merleliz on Wed, 08/26/2009 - 12:51pm.

I just joined here so that I could say thank you for so succinctly expressing what is so very, very wrong with this proposed bill.

Our company has been in business since 1976...due to the recession and horribly slow sales we have been forced to drop our healthcare coverage, it was either that or not pay the phone bill, electric bill, payroll...something had to go if we were to survive. We are a small company, under 10 employees...and we put it to a vote, everyone unanimously agreed that the healthcare coverage was less important to us than our continued survival as a business.

Now, or five years from now, we will be forced to reinstate it, and probably it will cost us more, since it will now be mandatory to have it...or in the alternative we will be taxed and penalized for not having it. We will go under. Then we not only won't have healthcare, we won't have jobs, we'll lose our homes, and we'll be bankrupt.

So much for our "rights" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Submitted by bowser on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 9:32am.

Once again Cal, you make an unwittingly good case for far more radical change than that which is on the table.

Health insurance should not be the concern of businesses large or small. Period. The fact that you are analyzing healthcare reform proposals from the standpoint of how it would affect your small newspaper business highlights the absurdity.

This set-up is a drag on the economy and limits both business vitality and individual freedom, despite the delusion that we control our own destinies and have lots of "choices." Our choices are to buy insurance through whatever plan our employer offers and accept all of its conditions, or not.

This creates far too many cracks in the system in terms of portability etc. The truly "private" market is a horror show of outrageous premiums and skimpy coverages -- not because the people involved are evil but because it has to be to make money. Medical bills cause or contribute to more than 1 million personal bankruptcies a year in the United States. That is a national disgrace -- not mention a further drag on the economy. And 40-50 million are uninsured for one reason or another, which means the costs of their treatment for injuries or illnesses trickle down to those of us who are insured in the form of higher premiums or co-pays. Why we would not want to get these people into the system -- whatever it is -- and have them put some skin in the game is a mystery to me.

Moreover, the employer-benefits model doesn't match the direction of the workforce, which is toward more mobility and flexibility. The current model is at odds with that because it discourages people from career-switches and throws up a potentially huge obstacle for those who would be more productive, build more wealth and contribute more to the economy in a new role. It also compounds the challenges and stresses for a breadwinner who gets "rightsized."

We need a national health care system -- whether government run or not -- that is detached from employers. That would leave businesses free to focus on what they do and workers free to pursue their careers independent of health insurance concerns.

meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 11:06am.

"Health insurance should not be the concern of businesses large or small."

Maybe in the progressive utopia you pursue, but not in the real business world. Corporations use paid health insurance as a major ingredient of compensation packages. The better the compensation package, the better talent you attract and retain. Just like pensions, paid life insurance, paid sick leave, paid vacations, 401k matching, etc, etc. When choosing companies to apply to, I did a careful benefits comparison. Good benefits are everything. That is why I work where I do. I studied and prepared myself to be an attractive hire by companies like mine. It was a decision I made, for my own future. I don't look to jump jobs, but if it ever presents itself the benefits package is the next thing I investigate after salary.

Anybody else is free to do the same preparation and investigation. You want health insurance and other good benefits? Make something out of yourself and give corporations a reason to hire you. Or, you can just sit on your ass and wait for someone to give it to you. How has that worked for them so far? Oh never mind, it's looking better than ever for them now. Can I get mines too???


Robert W. Morgan's picture
Submitted by Robert W. Morgan on Wed, 08/19/2009 - 7:04am.

The idea that an employer has to offer health insurance to attract top talent is an old idea dating to the 1950's and it finally died out about 15 years ago. The new reality (especially now with 10% unemployment) is that there are 100 candidates for every job and some of your best talent comes from someone really willing to work and learn new things as opposed to promoting from within and hoping that employee cares as much about your company as you do.

The other trend is to go to contract employees with no benefits at all. Best move I ever made.


Submitted by Bonkers on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 10:47am.

So I take it that the government must run the citizen's insurance which would be totally portable wherever one worked.

The businesses would not have to pay anything for one's health plan anymore?

Or would they contribute according to number of employees and dependents as they do now for unemployment insurance?

Actually nobody wants to pay for such costs as we now have for medical care. Nobody. Yet we don't want to cut down on the health industry's income nor cut our quality short! Impossible without efficiency changes.

Buckwheat Rules's picture
Submitted by Buckwheat Rules on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 9:46am.

Congrats to Bowswer on what is undoubtedly the best post in this list of retorts. These first couple of paragraphs totally nailed it and should be read by everyone.

Bowser said:

Health insurance should not be the concern of businesses large or small. Period. The fact that you are analyzing healthcare reform proposals from the standpoint of how it would affect your small newspaper business highlights the absurdity.

This set-up is a drag on the economy and limits both business vitality and individual freedom, despite the delusion that we control our own destinies and have lots of "choices." Our choices are to buy insurance through whatever plan our employer offers and accept all of its conditions, or not.

Love it ... absolutely love it because there is no debate to sound logic.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 10:00am.

you're happy right.. See Cal's response to BOWSER/BUCK? ... Sort of shot down his/hers/their arguments quite well...

The issue is we do not want what is being proposed right now.. NOT reform in some form, but what is being shoved down our throats is wrong.It is not Constitutionally sound and it is Morally wrong..
America is gagging on this.. and we are fighting back.. Don't like the feeling do you.. You Progressives have had it your way for so long in the "protest" arena that you just cannot grasp the fact that regular Joes are just not rolling over anymore..
WE want them to read the BILL..
WE want a detailed examination of that BILL...
WE want to see how it will really affect US?
WE want the promised TRANPARENCY..
WE want the PROMISED no NEW TAXES (READ MY LIPS)OBAMA
WE want the CONTROL... not the BUREAUCRATS..
WE want the Government out of our lives and OUR MONEY..
WE want them to listen to us.. OR ELSE...

Try that Logic on for size then get back to me..

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 11:00am.

WE want them to listen to us.. OR ELSE...
Understood, and I could not agree more, since both sides of this argument (I would like to call it a discussion, but that would be like calling Dick Cheney a careful shooter) feel the same way. I like the points that Bowser brought up (power to the individual!), to illustrate the view that neither side appears to be considering: it is possible for both sides to be wrong. With the current level of medical care, or lack thereof, the US is currently ranked 50th in life expectancy (CIA The World Factbook), so it is possible that both sides are on the wrong playground for this game.
I have to have respect for President Obama for even taking on this subject and doing what he can to overcome the obvious inertia regarding our current health care (or rather sickness care?) system.
One little tidbit to add: the carbonunit thinks that, regardless of the issues of rights and privileges, a better health policy is a good idea.

It's not easy being the carbonunit


Submitted by bowser on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 10:23am.

note the times on the posts. cal's response below is to someone else,not me.

but i do look forward to his thoughts, as well as to him answering the question i posed farther down.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 10:27am.

I thought his and Muddles response to you and Bonkers clearly stated that fact.. Maybe it's just me.. but.. I don't think so..

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Buckwheat Rules's picture
Submitted by Buckwheat Rules on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 4:20pm.

Affordable and quality healthcare for EVERY American in a country as great and as wealthy as our's .... is ABSOLUTELY a right and not a priviledge!

Every single American should and will be covered. That's the United States of America that I believe in.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 8:31pm.

Please tell me where WE find those RIGHTs?
Are these RIGHTs written anywhere?
Please show me where the Right to Healthcare is written?

I await your response with breathless anticipation..

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 8:39am.

.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 8:27am.

Decide for yourself

Do you know who is supporting opposition to this bill?

Like the publisher of The Citizen, we should all analyze how this 'reform' will help our business and our family. But first, we must separate fact from fiction. Nothing this important should be so poorly written and difficult to understand and/or interpret.

Cal Beverly's picture
Submitted by Cal Beverly on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 1:58am.

Let’s have a reasoned conversation based just on the facts and the logic of the healthcare reform issue and its philosophical (or ideological) underpinnings.

Buck, you state the “essence of the debate starts with the notion that ‘affordable and quality healthcare for every American citizen in our country is a right ... not a privilege.’”

I disagree with the starting point (I think the more fundamental debate is the proper role of government in our constitutional republic), but let’s take your argument on its merits.

Who says that healthcare is a right? Is that open to debate with you, or is that kind of a religious position, unassailable by logic or facts or an examination of our country’s history?

But again, taking your position on the merits, let’s define our terms, starting with “right.”

Is it a right of the same type as the 1st amendment right to free speech, or the 2nd amendment right to bear firearms or the 3rd amendment right ... ? Well, you get my point.

If your right to healthcare is a constitutional right, would you please point out where it is expressed in the U.S. Constitution? Or even a federal court ruling?

If healthcare is — on the other hand — an “unenumerated” right that has to be discovered in the Constitution’s “penumbra” by the U.S. Supreme Court, could you specify where that ruling might be found?

I think the answer to the above questions is that nowhere is such a right recognized by our founding document or by our highest court.

So then, if it’s not in the Constitution or our laws (yet), when did such a “right” show up on the American scene?

More to the point, when did you — Buck — discover YOUR right and MY right to — not just any old healthcare, but “affordable” and “quality” healthcare?

Is this a relatively recent right? It must be, because I’ve got gray hair and I don’t remember anybody — and I mean anybody — asserting such a right until very recently. (Gosh, we need a scorecard to keep up with all of these recently discovered “rights” that require somebody else to pay for those rights.)

Or is this a “right” that only people of a certain income or ethnicity or general put-upon-ness or down-and-out-ness may rightly possess and not us self-absorbed types?

Did somebody one day discover this healthcare right? Who might that have been? Did it come in a dream or during a protest for other rights?

I think I may safety assert that George Washington would have been unaware of such a right, as would Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and all those old guys we don’t pay much attention to anymore. I even have a sneaking suspicion that John F. Kennedy would have been unaware of such a “right,” and he was a pretty progressive fellow.

Buck, do you disagree with the argument so far? If so, specifically what do you disagree with and state your logic behind your position.

You said, “You either believe that and embrace the notion, or you don’t.” I totally agree with your assessment in that statement. You assert and I disagree that healthcare is a right.

I point out what should be self-evident to you: You and I can have all the “notions” we choose to indulge, but our respective “notions” don’t rise to the level of “rights” just because we claim them to be rights.

Or just because we harbor the “notion” that we are morally superior to other, less enlightened, self-absorbed folks.

But to take your argument even a farther step, if there is indeed such a “right” as you assert, how may that “right” be enjoyed by all who possess that new unalienable right?

Like my “cars and healthcare” analogy, Buck, I’ll alert you to this: the following is an analogy.

Suppose that I assert that my 1st amendment right to print what I believe doesn’t end at MY pocketbook.

Suppose I assert that, in furtherance of my 1st amendment right, I must confiscate — let’s say — $20 a week from your bank account so that I may enjoy my 1st amendment right to its fullest extent.

I set $20 because I want to remain “affordable” but I also want my asserted product to be what I consider “quality.”

(By the way, old self-absorbed “I” made that determination about what’s “affordable” and what’s “quality.” You didn’t get to have a say in that determination, did you? How do you feel about that?)

Now further suppose I have sufficient enforcement power to take your $20 a week whether you wish to give it to me or not and that you have no recourse but to submit and let me have it.

After all, it’s only $20 a week. You spend that much a week on morally superior coffee. But your coffee right is inferior to my 1st amendment right and need. You know — the greater good.

So, Buck, what’s wrong with this picture?

Do you really think my “right” extends so far as to require money out of your pocket, without your consent?

Now remember, the rules of this game — which power-hungry and self-absorbed “I” set without any input from you — don’t allow you to resist my taking of your money for my “rightful” purposes.

If the scenario I described above were to really happen, do you suppose you might become a strong advocate of the 2nd amendment and take strong measures to keep me from taking your $20 a week, from here on out, for the rest of your life?

I assert, Buck, that you and your liberal friends on this thread cannot make a coherent, logical, fact-based argument to prove that healthcare is an unalienable right (you remember “unalienable,” don’t you?).

And beyond that, you cannot assert a moral basis for your right to reach into my pocket to steal my money in order for you to pay for treating your ingrown toenail.

You assert a “greater good.” Who gets to determine that “greater good”? Liberals who want to take my money to make themselves feel better about themselves as morally superior to all us self-absorbed moral midgets?

I assert a greater good is freedom of the individual from the coercive and often foolishly ignorant and destructive power of the state — Mr. Obama and the Democrats being the visible agents of such misguided power.

I assert that freedom from the state’s arbitrary and unbridled power is a right — one of those unalienable ones — that is greater than your johnny-come-lately “right” of affordable healthcare at my expense. (I know you haven't read HR3200, but have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? That raw assertion of rights contained therein probably would shock you into an agitated state of even more pronounced moral superiority.)

If you and your friends have a higher “right” than individual freedom, then appeal to it and declare its basis.

Otherwise, another one of those old, old rights is your right to feel morally superior to others who disagree with you. It is one of those lesser “rights” nestled in the much bigger one called “freedom.”

From my “self-absorbed” perspective, I think such moral superiority more likely is smug self-righteousness. But, hey, you’re free to disagree.

Cal Beverly
publisher
The Citizen
Fayetteville, Ga. 30214


Buckwheat Rules's picture
Submitted by Buckwheat Rules on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 9:41pm.

Here you go Cal, since you asked where it was in our constitution

"THE RIGHT TO BASIC HEALTH CARE IS AFFORDED TO EVERY CITIZEN OF TILE UNITED STATES."

Amendment (XXVIII) (2009)
Constitution of the United States of America

Of course there is no 28th Amendment to the Constitution. As a matter of fact, health care is not a right afforded to every citizen in our country at this current time.

Quality health care has largely been a privilege attainable by the wealthy, a benefit provided solely at the discretion of an employer, a government subsidized insurance plan for the elderly or a charitable gift provided based on the goodwill of others.

The Founding Fathers declared that we are "endowed with unalienable rights, among them are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." There is no question that in order to have life we must have health, good health to live a long and happy life. Yet there has been only limited constitutional language specific to this right.

The "cruel and unusual punishment" clause of the 8th Amendment to the Constitution has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to require prisoners, as part of their humane treatment during detention, to be guaranteed the right to health care. Therefore, believe it or not, prisoners are the only group who are specifically granted the right to health care at this time. It is probable that the founders of our country, if they could have predicted the importance of health care, would have granted that the same standard of humane treatment be extended to every citizen? Cal, do you think our founding fathers had the foresight to envision a country who's citizens had to choose between perscription medication or food for th family in order to make ends meet?

The truth of the matter is, that at the time of the framing of the Constitution--though meager in its scope compared to today's standards--health care was generally available to all citizens. There was no major issue of lack of affordability or lack of access to care.

Framers of the Constitution, such as Thomas Jefferson, were heavily influenced by their personal experiences. Thomas Jefferson's personal physician, Robley Duglison, was aware of his patient's general distrust of medicine. Duglison wrote, "Mr. Jefferson has often told me he would rather trust to the unaided or uninterfered with efforts of nature than to physicians in general."

Based on a realistic view of the impotent and poorly organized health care as it existed in the 1700s, Jefferson and the Founding Fathers probably found no reason to include health care as a specific right in the Constitution. They had no way to predict that health care would grow to be an integral part of the fabric of modern life and essential to the pursuit of life and happiness. Moreover, they wouldn't have had a clue on how costs would come into play.

There's no denying thtat our country and its health care system are radically different now than at the time of the Revolutionary War.

We are now blessed with a system that has enormous potential for the improving the quality and quantity of life. Life expectancy at birth has jumped from 39 years in 1850 to over 76 years in 2001.

There have been enormous numbers of health care interventions that improved the quality of life. However, the improvements in quantity and quality of life occurred in concert with costs that increased both absolutely and relative to the wealth of the country.

Fast forward to today: To say that our health care system is now extremely expensive is an understatement. The system itself is costing us, our collective country, over a trillion dollars a year! This is a number that represented approx 13.5% percent of our gross domestic product in 2004.

Over the years as the costs and complexity of health care rose, we responded by developing creative interim methods to fund health care for most of the citizens. Now, even as the capability to relieve suffering and prolong life is growing, the financial ability to provide these services to all of our citizens is eroding. Couple that with massive job losses in our current recessions, etc.

The disconnection between valuable health care and the financial ability of every citizen to access that healthcare brings into focus the essential question of health care as a right or a privilege.

If we want this country to succeed in the 21st century then we have to lay a new foundation for lasting prosperity. And health insurance reform is a key pillar of this new foundation. Because this economy won't work for everyone until folks aren't pushed to the bankruptcy brink by medical expenses; until companies aren't slashing payroll and losing profits to pay for health insurance; until every single American has the security and peace of mind of quality, affordable health care.

Perhaps it's the basic humanitarian side of me that thinks quality and affordable health care must be a basic right in this country, perhaps its my feeling that at the end of the day, we are all countrymen on the same team.

When I pass, I want it to be said that I held up my end of the bargan when somebody very special asks, "Have you been your brother's keeper?"

Cal, I'll close with this, but let me say that I've enjoyed the discussion on a topic that touches all of our lives in a profound way.

Preamble

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

----------­----------­-------

promote the general Welfare

This, and the next part of the Preamble, are the culmination of everything that came before it — the whole point of having tranquility, justice, and defense was to promote the general welfare — to allow every state and every citizen of those states to benefit from what the government could provide. The framers looked forward to the expansion of land holdings, industry, and investment, and they knew that a strong national government would be the beginning of that.


Submitted by CitizenD on Thu, 10/15/2009 - 6:47pm.

I have the right to life, but no one gives me that. As a matter of fact, I have to pay for my own life and also pay for so many more lives...through very high taxes. I have the right to liberty....after 911, does anyone doubt that we have to pay for that? I have the right to pursuit of happiness.....hmmm, I pay again. Why do you think that health care should be free? I can name a lot of unemployed, crack dealing democrats that park their $60,000 car on mommas lawn that don't have no insurance because it costs too much. I know that sounded racist, but look. I set my priorities for my family. let other people set their own priorities (btw. I drive a 12 year old truck and have good health insurance. It's just my priority)....and I don't think health care costs too much. But I do think we are forced to use it. Why the hell do prescriptions exist in the first place? Also, I think the $5 co-pay should be outlawed. Those are the real drivers of high health cost.
>CitizenD

Submitted by MYTMITE on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 12:19pm.

and for your reply to Buck. I have to shake my head and wonder where all these 'rights' have come from. I was born during FDR's time in the White House, so I go back some. We were a rather large family and really did not have much--but we never expected it to be taken from those that had it to give to us. It seems that all those thinking the wealth should be spread are those who have not worked for it or are in a position of power (politicians) who seem to be exempt. They pass laws regarding taxes but somehow forget to pay theirs. Gee, too busy passing laws to realize I haven't paid taxes in six years. "They" say that the medical insurance and attention they receive is the same as any government employee. If you believe that you are not only naive but stupid. Do you really think a lowly government secretary can go into Walter Reed and/or get the same attention that a Ted Kennedy gets? Sure, and I believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa. Serve five years and you get a pension for life and all the other perks. Most of us poor suckers have to work twenty years at least or reach 62/65 for SS. When is the last time you could hop on a plane and take the missus to dinner in the Big Apple and have the secret service accompany you and Uncle Sam pay for it? No, we do not all have the same 'rights'.

In my America, you have the right to go to school (free), get an education(free). Get the best job you can and make the best salary you can. If you are a super achiever and I am a slacker, if I work hard, start my own business, work fourteen hours a day, seven days a week and become a success and you decide to drop out of school and take a low paying job, never doing anything to better yourself, why is it my duty to take care of you? Education is there for all at affordable prices. In school you can be eligible for free breakfast, lunch, snack, afterschool care---paid for with taxes. One thing the government cannot do is make parents be parents, no matter how much money or how many programs you make available. Until people are made to face their responsibilities and stop whining, we will continue down this slippery slope as a nation. Our forefathers must be weeping. Oh, Cal, before one of your detractors mention it--I think you meant inalienable right not unalienable--even tho' I like yours better! Thanks for all you do.

Submitted by Bonkers on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 8:08pm.

You are losing the main point!

Nobody wants a slacker to make as much money as a hard worker for the job they do.
Nobody wants everyone to work in a sewer tunnel, just those who can't find anything better to do.
Nobody wants everyone to have a 350,000 dollar home, just those who can afford one of those.
and on and on.

However, everyone should be able to be as much pain free as is possible and live as long as your body will allow you if taken care of by doctors.
But, when you are the sewer worker or just a bum and your chest hurts something awful you should be able to get the same treatment for that as anybody else and not have to beg for it.

And while you are in the hospital you should be able to eat as much chicken and steak and juice as the bank President who might be there.

I hope that is enough examples to indicate what is needed.

You can still have your fine home, plenty of good food and restaurant meals and a Mercedes and diamonds and Hawaii vacations, but old Jim in the sewer should be able to eat enough protein, milk, and oranges to live healthy enough to enjoy his 2 BR paper sided home that needs paint.
Right now too many can't because we are afraid we will lose ours (all) to him.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 2:39pm.

Your points are well taken. In a normal economic situation, your reasoning would be understandable. Today, people who worked hard, achieved much, invested well, saved money - THEY ARE OUT OF WORK. THEY ARE WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE. Much in this poorly written legislation leaves a lot of questions - but there is a need for healthcare reform in this country. It appears you feel that those who have not made good choices are those without healthcare insurance - but in this economy, this is not NECESSARILY the case. Even those who qualify for COBRA, if they don't have an income, cannot pay the lower COBRA PREMIUMS. It is important for our legislators to know our fact-based concerns - and to make sure that these concerns are addressed.

Submitted by MYTMITE on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 4:33pm.

to go to this extreme. Some people who really deserve disability have to fight and fight to get it, others who are not deserving walk away with it, plus all the extras, food stamps, etc. I have not been able to figure this one out. A situation I am aware of the person collects disability, unemployment, and Medicaid medical assistance. They use ambulances likes free taxis to go to the hospital for any little thing. Even though they only worked for a short period while collecting disability, they received unemployment, with all the extentions given to those who were really deserving. Why some get away with this cheating and other deserving people get kicked to the curb is a mystery to me. There is a lot of abuse in Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, section eight housing and many other government programs. I can't believe it would not be less expensive to hire people to weed out these dead-beats than to just say they don't have the means to catch them. Then we have all these glorious plans that were put into effect in the past couple of months without enough forethought to prevent mishandling---same thing with health reform. No one has really taken the time to work out all the kinks. It's being made up as we go along and that is crazy. Why the rush? Why not spend time really working on a program that would work? We have people who are going to vote on these life changing issues who have not even read part of it much less all of it and did those who read it understand all the nuances? Not! Clean up the messes we already have, use our money more wisely, then we can talk intelligently bout doing something about health care. We are spending money like we have our own printing press--0h, wait we do--and not worrying about what we have to back it up. When I play Monopoly I do not care if I pay 200% more than something is worth--after all it is only funny money---well, our money is fast becoming funny money if we continue on this foolish path.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 5:00pm.

I think it's called 'oversight', 'regulation', monitoring how our funds are spent. This hasn't been happening for a long, long time. I think the Town Halls and citizen input will put an end to this. A lot of thoughtful ideas are being shared on Twitter. Maybe our legislators put the cart before the horse on this one. Town Halls should have been held first with an understandable summary of the proposed legislation. Then meaningful input could have been given without the obvious manipulative myths from both sides of the aisle. The 'funny money' game was OK when the interest paid on investments was in the 15% bracket. Now with CD's earning less than 2% and property values decreased - the 'funny money' game is not so funny. Right? Healthcare is an important part of recovery of our economy - and it must be done right. I think most agree on this point. I hope citizens will see how important it is to stay involved! Legislators are learning that we are not going to roll over and follow blindly along. We need meaningful affordable health care. This is far more important than partisan politics.

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 3:25pm.

It is understood how dire times have become and that honest hard working people are struggling to survive at the moment. I truly do empathize. I have a good friend that has suffered from ulcerative colitis for years now. She lost her job because she had to take too many sick days and lasted for a while on Cobra. Then that ran out. Most days she is in too much agony to even look for a new job (if she could even find one in the first place) and has lost the confidence she needs to interview well. She has even talked of suicide to escape the pain.

Her point is that: "What should I tell them? I'm a good worker but, hey, I may need to take time off every week for doctor visits and some days can't even get out of bed. Oh, and by the way, my doctor keeps me doped up on pain medicine all the time so I may not always be coherent.".

For reasons I am unaware of, she has not yet been approved for disability. How does a single mother take care of her health needs and that of her children when she can hardly take care of herself?

I REALLY DO FEEL FOR ANYONE LIKE HER!!!

However, like you point out, I do not feel that "poor legislation" is the way to go. No one that is against this health bill denies that something has to be done. We can not afford to do nothing. I just don't feel that giving the government this kind of power is the right way to go and am not willing to sell my soul or my liberty for a plan that will also be tremendously flawed. I have to wonder why the desperate push to get this done pronto. I know something needs to be done expeditiously but feel that our Senate should be allowed the appropriate time to READ, DEBATE, AND REVISE. Otherwise, one can't help but to speculate on a hidden agenda.

It is imperative to remember that CHANGE can be good - but it can also be very very bad.

Best wishes to you, Davids mom, have a good weekend.

"Any nation that would trade a little liberty for a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin


Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 3:42pm.

that our Senate should be allowed the appropriate time to READ, DEBATE, AND REVISE.

We're on the same page here! I think these Town Hall's and the citizen participation is a great step in seeing that this is accomplished. Debate and UNDERSTANDABLE revision/clarification is absolutely necessary. My prayers go out to your friend. Have a great weekend!

Cal Beverly's picture
Submitted by Cal Beverly on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 12:48pm.

Good question. The following is copied from ushistory.org:

The question is often asked, “Is the word in the Declaration of Independence unalienable or is it inalienable?”

The final version of the Declaration uses the word “unalienable.” Some earlier drafts used the word “inalienable,” which is the term our modern dictionaries prefer. The two words mean precisely the same thing.

According to The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style from Houghton Mifflin Company:

The unalienable rights that are mentioned in the Declaration of Independence could just as well have been inalienable, which means the same thing. Inalienable or unalienable refers to that which cannot be given away or taken away.

Here is a listing of known versions of the Declaration, showing which word is used:

The Declaration on parchment, now in the Department of State — unalienable

The Declaration as written out in the corrected Journal — unalienable

The Declaration as printed by Dunlap under the order of Congress — unalienable

The draft of the Declaration in the handwriting of Jefferson now in The American Philosophical Society, in Philadelphia — inalienable

The Declaration in the handwriting of Jefferson now in the New York Public Library — inalienable

The draft of the Declaration in the handwriting of Jefferson now in the Massachusetts Historical Society, in Boston —inalienable

The copy in the handwriting of John Adams of the “Rough draught” of the Declaration, now at the Massachusetts Historical Society — unalienable

In a footnote in “The Declaration of Independence: A Study in the History of Political Ideas” by Carl Lotus Becker, published 1922, we learn:

The Rough Draft reads “[inherent &] inalienable.” There is no indication that Congress changed “inalienable” to “unalienable”; but the latter form appears in the text in the rough Journal, in the corrected Journal, and in the parchment copy. John Adams, in making his copy of the Rough Draft, wrote “unalienable.” Adams was one of the committee which supervised the printing of the text adopted by Congress, and it may have been at his suggestion that the change was made in printing. “Unalienable” may have been the more customary form in the eighteenth century.

— The Independence Hall Association (IHA) “owns the website ushistory.org, which supports our mission to educate the public about the Revolutionary and Colonial eras of American history, as well as Philadelphia generally.”

Cal Beverly
publisher
The Citizen
Fayetteville, Ga. 30214


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 10:51am.

Whether healthcare is a right or privilege? What an idiotic argument this has become.

As citizens of this country, is clean water a right? No. Because, by your logic, the right to clean water is not included in the wording of the Constitution. However, you *conservatives* would scream bloody murder if mud dribbled out of your faucets, therefore, we have laws to protect us all and we pay for clean water, through utility bills and government entities that protect our water quality, paid for by ALL of us through taxes.

Is healthcare a right or privilege... is this really the argument now?


Joe Kawfi's picture
Submitted by Joe Kawfi on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 1:03pm.

No, Main Stream - we just wouldn't drink it.

However, most liberals would as long as it was free and provided by the government.

One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. Most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it.

Ronald Reagan - 1961


Submitted by bowser on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 9:03am.

In your original post and here you assert health care is neither a right nor a privilege.

Well, what IS it then?

And how, in your view, should its benefits be distributed among a population of vastly varying means and circumstances? I'm curious...

Cal Beverly's picture
Submitted by Cal Beverly on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 1:27pm.

Healthcare is an artificial construct, a quick policy shorthand for a vast and intricate interrelated set of of products, services, buying and selling decisions and capital.

Individual pieces of that construct are in fact just like bread and milk and truck driving and wholesalers and farmers and buyers and sellers, etc. — individual commodities and individual services offered for sale in a capitalistic free-market economy.

Do you have a "right" to bread? Do you have a privilege to eat bread you neither bought nor baked yourself?

Make an unemotional, fact- and logic-based case for your general and unfettered right or privilege to walk into a grocery store and steal a jug of milk without paying for it.

If you don't have a "right" to something as basic as bread (find that in the Constitution) why do you have a right to free or taxpayer-subsidized services and products from these millions of individual sellers of their services and products?

How should healthcare be distributed? The same way bread and milk are distributed: The individual with the product or service reaches an uncoerced agreement to sell the product or service to the willing buyer at a mutually agreed-upon price.

That's called free-market capitalism. That's what got us this amazing "healthcare" system in the first place.

Charity for truly needy cases should likewise be an individual, noncoerced decision. You have no God-given or otherwise-given "right" to reach into my pocket to take what I worked for and convert it to your own uses without my permission. If I deny permission, get your hand out of my pocket.

My argument is based on the concepts of individual freedom and individual property rights. What is yours based on?

Cal Beverly
publisher
The Citizen
Fayetteville, Ga. 30214


Submitted by bowser on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 8:00pm.

For the response. I now realize I misunderstood your original post. You were using “right” and “privilege” as synonyms, both as in an entitlement. I think of privilege as the opposite – something you earn or acquire on merit or through certain behavior. So your position seemed contradictory and I was asking, if it’s not something you’re entitled to and not something you earn, what is it? Anyway, my bad coach.

So we don't have any argument over healthcare as a constitutional right; it clearly isn't one. On the other hand, a hospital by law cannot deny treatment to someone who needs emergency care. Insurance policies must cover certain things. Etc. Etc. So we have established, and continue to revise through the political process, legal rights involving health care.

Your other points are interesting. I assume you do not literally mean that, as a free-market commodity, health care should go only to those who can afford the market price and be withheld from those who cannot. That is economic rationing to the extreme. In that world, would the daughter of a billionaire “deserve” treatment for a brain tumor while the son of an uninsured welfare mother would not? Or would the latter have to find some “non-coerced” private benefactor to pony up on his behalf?

And where does your "get your hands out of my pockets" stance leave you with Medicaid or any other public health program? If someone opposes that program or the treatments it provides, should they be able to withhold “permission” to have their taxes used for it? If so, why wouldn’t that be the case for any government enterprise, say, foreign aid or wars or space flights?

Submitted by Blah Blah on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 6:55am.

It is time the billionaires are given equal healthcare with the people that they earn their money from. Call me what you want but equalize the wealth and healthcare now. Cut the military and let the goverment have more say and even owneership in companies. then we can save them and make their earning go to taking care of all of our people as it should be. Peace and health should be what our country stands for for its people.

A system of limitless individual choices, with respect to communications, is not necessarily in the interest of citizenship and self-government.

Submitted by normal on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 10:29am.

I sure hope you didnt breed and spread your ignorance. What a sad article you wrote.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 7:13am.

There you go spewing your brand of socialism again. I wonder how many more are like you.

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 10:21am.

"I wonder how many more are like you."

Not enough to be a credible threat and that's all that matters.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 1:15pm.

I hope you're right; however, sometimes I wonder.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 1:26pm.

He just might try to retaliamate. Shocked

I can see your posting being forward to the Whitehouse.gov Fishing Site.

Obama.... The Bernie Madoff Of Washington


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 1:42pm.

I hope he will. You know we need something like another IDRIVESOFAST to liven things up.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 3:34pm.

and using this phony blah blah for bait, I'd have me quite a catch. I'm just sayin'. Of course, being a true conservationist, I am a catch and release type of unit.

It's not easy being the carbonunit


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 7:12pm.

Don't seem any worse to me then boo boo, both want something for nothing.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 5:17pm.

Don't forget about using those "barbless" hooks. I'm just sayin'. Smiling
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 9:43am.

and still does not get it...
Cal here is an example of "what I call" Trying to teach a pig to sing...
Frustrates you and just pisses off the pig..

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Submitted by pomsmom on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 10:22pm.

If obama would try to overhaul medicaid fraud and leave the paying public out of this nightmare people would be a lot more receptive to him. I know of people who pick-up their phone, make a 911 call for a free ambulance ride to the free Grady to pick up their free precriptions. This is why the paying public is so unhappy with his healthcare solutions. Fix what is broken first. It would be a lot cheaper to deliver the prescriptions to the people who can't get downtown. This is just a small part of the waste going on every minute. FIX THIS FIRST AND KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR PRIVATE INSURANCE AND MY END OF LIFE CHOICES. OBAMA IS NOT GOD. HE HAS NO BUSINESS TRYING TO CONTROL THIS PURELY PRIVATE MATTER.

Buckwheat Rules's picture
Submitted by Buckwheat Rules on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 9:54pm.

You're so self absorbed and enamoured with "what's in if for me" that you're totally overlooking the foundational reason the majority of Americans want, and realize we need, health care reform to begin with.

The essance of the debate starts with the notion that "Affordable and quality health care for EVERY American citizen in our country is a right .... not a priviledge "

You either believe that and embrace the notion, or you don't. Health care is not a car Cal, so your comparisons to making an automobile purchase are moot and somewhat nonsensical.

I have good health care through my employer (obviously it could be better ... not what it once was), but I have it nonetheless. I can either say, "Hey, I have mine ... screw everybody else," or I can stop and realize that over 40 million Americans aren't as fortunate as I am. This country knew we had serious flaws in our health care well over 50 years ago and yet we did nothing about it. Until now ... the sands of the hourglass have run out and we're now in a position that it must be fixed now, or it never will. If it doesn't get fixed, you'll have people wishing we did actually have these mythical "death panels" because Americans won't have the financial means to continue on.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 10:43pm.

I have stated this one before.. but strangly no answers..
If we have a Healthcare CRISIS.. please show me the waiting lines.. the Dead bodys in those lines.. and all the homeless draging broken body parts because they had no access to care..

Show me these few things and then I will admit we have a CRISIS..
Remember TARP was a CRISIS too..!!!

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 10:22pm.

Why did Congress exempt themselves?
Why are there provisions for Minority rights in a Health Bill?
Why after 5 years do you lose your private options and must sign onto the public option?
Why has groups like Acorn been given access to the crafting of the bill and vast sums of money will be transferred to Acorn?
Why are Hospitals banned from expansion with out approval from the Government?
and lastly WHY WON"T THEY READ THE DANG THING?

Well????

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 12:01pm.

The "Complete Life" system consuling has now been removed form the Bill... One down.. a whole lot more to go...

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 12:40pm.

No "death panel" ever was there.

Besides congress is not in session to remove anything!

Nothing has even been approved by both houses and the President!

zoes's picture
Submitted by zoes on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 12:27pm.

I hope they heard themselves when they said, "because of the misunderstanding of [this], we were concerned it's purpose would be misused' or something like that. Basically, if people don't understand what we mean, they won't do what we meant.

If only they can apply that to the rest of the bill..........

ZoeS

"Never love anything that can't love you back."


PhilPTC's picture
Submitted by PhilPTC on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 9:12am.

First, want to thank Cal for enlightening me about the bill - don't see too many people taking the time to actually read the legal jargin and trying to make sense of it.

My devious mind can't help but think that there may be a bigger game going on. Could it be that this health bill, with all its incredibly anti-freedom language, proposing consistent violation of individuals' and private enterprises' rights, actually be an intentional bluff in order to stir the pot to make change happen voluntarily by the health care industry? Fear is potent motivator, I'd say.

Obama is an attorney by trade, I believe, as are most of Congress. They live and breathe and were taught how to persuade a jury in order to win, regardless of right or wrong. It is their duty to their client, is it not? (An image of the OJ trial just popped into my head.) They bluff, they shout, they speak with trembling lips, eyes watering, and put on quite a show all to influence the decision of the jury in their favor.

Could this be the case?

Alternate solutions - If you're looking for alternate solutions to health care, try reading "Real Change" by Newt Gingrich. You can find an audio book on CD at the PTC library. I was very surprised how progressive it was, considering I thought Newt was a hard line conservative; seems I was mistaken after absorbing his ideas.

-PhilPTC

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
- Joseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945


Submitted by idk_revisited on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 6:08am.

Cal:

This is my opinion statement:

Just because you're the publisher of a newspaper covering local topics doesn't mean that you should use your position to whine about how your business is going to be affected. Why in the world does anyone actually care what you have to say, just because you have the financial backing to throw a fishrag on our driveways once a week and operate a website that continues feeding the paranoia and mindlessness that are the hallmark of what's wrong with today's society?

But if you are going to continue asserting your opinion, how about answering this: You can spout off every little thing you hate about what you've read , but is there anything you like?

Why, oh purveyor of provocation, don't you take a crack at making a plan that can ensure that people who have "pre-existing conditions" or are otherwise unable to get health care get a choice they can actually pay for? Or find ways to levelize costs, make it easier for doctors and hospitals to have medical histories for people, and possibly reform the industry that keeps so many so rich.

Really? No response? You don't have all the answers? I'm shocked!!!!

Quit throwing stones without presenting alternatives....oh wait, let's do nothing - THAT's always helpful.

I wish the Today in PTC updated their website more, then I wouldn't ever have a reason to visit this wasteland.

Someone start an alternative to the Citizen, please!

Buckwheat Rules's picture
Submitted by Buckwheat Rules on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 10:02pm.

and the TRUTH shall set you free.

Cal has "I, ME, MY, MINE" syndrome and can't see the bigger issue at hand.


Submitted by Bonkers on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 3:08am.

Newspapers for most places are having a hard time right now. Most are going broke or are useless for various reasons.

You can't blame The Citizen for not wanting to supply anything else to their employees or any one else's! I don't know if The Citizen supplies up to $16,000 per year for total major medical---whether they pay 25% or 50% for the employee, but I doubt the employee of a newspaper could afford even a 25% contribution. They are not AT&T.

Chances are they have a deductible of some large proportion and limited coverage just as many have now. Also the owners must have a living.

You have to understand that wanting others to have what they need but not wanting to participate is understandable.

That is Why it is one of those things like the army, social security, national defense, most major roads, etc., are government run.

That is why national health care is necessary. It has nor succeeded in 60 years in serving everyone. Trying to make jobs mostly and some wealthy. Not serving 50 million correctly for whatever reason is not success.

Submitted by MYTMITE on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 4:14pm.

Why don't YOU start an alternative to the Citizen if you are unhappy with Cal's postings or the paper in general? Why don't you beseech Today in PTC to update faster and more often--and last but not least why do you continue to visit 'this wasteland' or read "this fishwrap"?
Someone twisting your arm?

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 8:03am.

and you seem very blissful..
What do you want solutions too?? It is enough that Cal is exposing what is in the bill.. It is imperative that we know.. what the Government is trying to do.. then we can work towards fixing what is really wrong.. If we allow the GOvernement to run roughshod over us then we surely deserve the bill we get...
Cal is only doing what our Politicians will not do.. READ THE DANG BILL..

Oh and btw idk.. Don't move that pesky thing called a mouse to that link to the CItizen...then you want be bothered by the "Wastelanders"

Buh bye now
"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Submitted by boo boo on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 3:20am.

I read this medical care billing rule more than once. I really see no difference in how our insurance works now, when we go to the Dr. Office. First thing they want is your insurance card. You see the Dr. if you have the correct insurance card. You see the Dr. You pay your bill or copay. If you need to go to see a specialist you better have that referral from your regular Dr. or you won't get to see that specialist. Experienced this first hand, more than once. Our insurance Pkg from our employer basically gives you one choice to pick from in your pkg. You pick that specific one, no insurance, or out of network. When ever you go to a Dr. for the first time they want your Social Security number and that is practically the first question they want you to answer. I always gripe about that and they always tell me "well we have to have it".
Just as a side note. My friend's spouse had surgery at a hospital up in Atlanta. On the same day as her spouse arrived home, they had no sooner walked into the door and she got a phone call from the Hospital, yep they wanted their $1,000.00 right then. They have the same insurance as we. I imagine there are many others out there with Health-care, that have their own stories. We at least have Health Insurance and I am grateful for that, there are so many who have none.

I see nothing new really, in that paragraph from the bill, with the health insurance we have now. I would venture to say there are thousands in this County that have the same health insurance as we do.

I, of course, don't know how your insurance works or will work with a new Health-care bill. I am hopeful if we do get a Health-care plan it will work for everyone and especially small businesses. They are the back bone of this Country.

Submitted by Doug on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 12:21am.

The devil is in the details. You got it right.

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Thu, 08/13/2009 - 11:17pm.

I looked up HR3200 today - couldn't print it because I don't think I have that much ink in my printer.

While reading sections of this atrocity, I was reminded of Himler's Warsaw papers.

There is no way that our Senators could possibly read this entire bill and translate the nuances of such said bill as proposed by the bill writers in a timely manner in which to be able to make informed intelligent decisions on behalf of said citizens. Wow, that's a mouthful.

"Any nation that would trade a little liberty for a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin (spoken in plain English!!)


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 7:11am.

Do you currently have good fully covered health insurance?

Who pays for it?

Do you want some insurance?

If so don't you want everyone to have it?

Submitted by MYTMITE on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 1:17pm.

I do not feel it is the government's place to provide them for me. Should the government provide a house for everyone? If so, should everyone have the right to the same house? Why should Mr. Wealthy Guy have a million dollar home while I live in a tiny one bedroom house--shouldn't I have the same? Should the government provide me with a car if I don't have one? If so should it be a "clunker" (oops, government is paying to do away with clunkers--even tho' some of those clunkers I saw on TV look pretty good to me!)or as nice a car as Mr. Jones with the great job who lives down the street drives? Who provides the coverage to that car? Shouldn't I be entitled to the same coverage as well-to-do Mr. Jones? Where does it end? Muddles needs to run for office and straighten out this mess or at least explain the Constitution to those who continually misinterpret it.

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 7:33am.

Yes, I am covered under my husband's insurance plan. A few years ago my husband wanted to pursue another company that paid a few dollars an hour more than he makes. Turns out, the other company did not contribute to the insurance plan, offered less vacation, and was 30 more miles out of the way. He kept the job he has BECAUSE of the benefits package.

The problem with the Obamacare fans is that they assume anyone who opposes this bill or any form of socialized health care is greedy with insurance. They claim that we "don't want everyone to have it". The truth of the matter is that most will admit that their are problems with the current system - show me any system that isn't flawed. I simply believe that it would be more constructive to FIX the current system rather than scrap it and start all over with something that gives the government even more power over our lives.

Anyone that truly wants this power given to our government is, in my opinion, UNPATRIOTIC.

"Any nation that would trade a little liberty for a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 9:31am.

Your solution to allow those who now control insurance to fix it isn't working, and won't work.

They have had about 50 years to fix it and the uninsured list continues to grow and the health industry is now about 30-35% of our total economy! That business plan will eventually totally fail.

Somebody has to have the guts to do something about it, now!

Congress will always have the ability to make any corrections necessary to it.

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 11:38am.

You know, Bonkers, maybe you're right. Maybe we should just let the government do it all for us. After all, they NEVER screw anything up. We can let them own our mortgages, our private enterprise, let big brother come into our homes to search for weapons or items of anti-Obama propaganda, and while we're at it ... let's just do completely away with the whole 2 term thing. What's that for anyway? Hell, Pelosi could even be Obama's version of Himler. She could head the bureau that keeps all us proletarians in line so that we don't do anything unpatriotic. If we do we'll go on the list - you know what that means. After all, you can't have utopia if there is dissent.


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 12:47pm.

Fog the issue with gun invasions, owning of mortgages, etc., when the problem is health insurance for 50 million!

Typical republican method of defeating people in favor of corporations.

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 1:10pm.

Please explain which part of my post is not true. Hmmm....the government does not have ANY ownership in ANY private enterprise?
They don't advocate buying up of bad mortgages (even my man McCain was for that)? Big Brother isn't pushing to control health care in this country? Oh, and I'm sure it must just be gossip that Obama wants to do away with the 2 term limit on holding public office? Obama is not proposing an annual fee for each firearm in a person's home - how will this be inforced? There's not a White House data base with the email addresses of private citizens? Maybe you could ask Gibbs about that, I'm sure he'll have a really good articulate answer.

Hmmm.....typical liberal dung and denial.

I recall you once claimed to be a veteran of the Korean War. It is beyond me how anyone that has worn our nations uniform could forget all those who have fought and died for our freedom and our ideals in favor of more government control which will, whether by intention or by design lead to loss of freedom.


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 2:29pm.

I don't claim to be a veteran, I am.

I did a little more for our freedom than I think you ever have.

I don't follow sheep over a cliff however.

The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 5:59pm.

"I don't claim to be a veteran, I am. I did a little more for our freedom than I think you ever have." Being a little pissy there, huh? I have read numerous posts from you disparaging our current military operations, yet you wrap yourself up in the cause of our freedom over Korea? How was containment action in Korea different than operations in Iraq and Afganistan? How is your Korean War era service worthy of our freedom, but today's action is not? And you can't be veteran superior with me, Boink. After reading your posts now and the silly vitriol you spew, I view you like a mess hall donut-a three dimensional zero with very little taste. I should know, I am the Wedge, the simplest tool known to man.


Submitted by Bonkers on Sat, 08/15/2009 - 2:50am.

You simply can't separate the soldier form the politician and the war itself!

Of course Korea was as crappy a war as is Iraq. What soldiers they sent obeyed orders and did the best they could even with many incompetent civilian leadership and generals! Either incompetent or afraid to speak up.

Some will in books now that they are retired.

If you can't see the difference in our soldiers and those incompetent idiots then we will always have such wars.

Care to go back to hamburger hill a few times with those kids? Just to abandon it again.

Showing pride and patriotism for Washington is stupid these days.
Even Cheney is beginning to see the light--at least long enough to sell his upcoming book!

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 3:05pm.

"I did a little more for our freedom than I think you ever have."

I'll grant you that. I know, from being the daughter of a Vietnam veteran and the granddaughter of a WWII veteran, the sacrifices our men and women in uniform have faced. And, contrary to my previous post, I do have a great deal of respect for those who have fought to give me the right to think as I see fit and to speak as I see fit. It is a debt that I could never repay. I try to repay that debt by defending these freedoms that are doused in the blood of my countrymen.

You are like a few that I know who think that their service has bought them the badge of honor, without realizing that true honor is in how one treats others and their countenance. Is it honorable to be completely belligerent and antagonistic to everyone - always being that vile pathetic excuse of a man that is only happy when stirring the pot? Is it noble to say something to insinuate that MY life is probably not worth saving - refer to your post this morning. Now, am I supposed to honor you?

As the daughter of a very honorable man and the mother of a boy I hope to instill with that same honor, I believe that I have given of myself. I contribute with the honor that comes from being a mother. You seem to assume that the daughters, wives, and mothers of those who serve do not sacrifice. Is that your point?

I know that words like honorable and noble don't mean much these days but I would think that an old man like yourself would know the meaning of these ideals.

No, I do not follow sheep either. Especially not those CNN type sheep. We are already over the cliff, hanging on by a rope.


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 5:57pm.

I am for Motherhood, Chevrolet and apple pie!
I don't know about how the coattails of your relatives serves you! Women can't use relatives as attenuators!

Oh, I forgot pathetic excuse of a man! Pot stirrer and an insinuator.

As to CNN sheep, I often prefer FOX due to the coral of stalls in the back room full of long-legged short-skirted women who are paraded out and positioned in high chairs for a good view. Then they spout what they were told. Interesting to watch though. One can't be against anything unless you know what the anything is all about.

You know not of that which you speak about health care needs!
You ARE a sheep.

I will just let you see the changes to come about over the next few years. You lost the election!

hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 1:24pm.

If I'm not mistaken, and I'm not, YOU lost the election too my hypocritical, women hating aged friend. Even though you believe in everything Obama stands for, since you couldn't vote for either a woman or a black man, you had to vote Republican.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 1:38pm.

Given all the meds you take, I heard one pill can give you a condition that might exist for more than four hours after which you need to seek medical care. Have you? Smiling
-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 8:51pm.

I believe that pill would take what little blood is reaching his brain and divert it elsewhere, he'd probably be wearing a sling the next day.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 12:57pm.

Why is it that when someone like yourself has nothing left to fall back on you resort to playground retorts like: "We won - You lost."?

That's what I expect to hear after a football game. Football is a game based on friendly competition (unless it's Auburn v/s Georgia). Politics is not, at least it shouldn't be, a competition. When making important decisions that affect all citizens - this should NEVER be viewed as competition. That is unless you have your own agenda that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the well being of the public. Then I guess it would be considered sporting. Huh?

Obama won the election. Hell, I was over that by Thanksgiving and had really hoped that he would be successful. After all, it's what's best for this country that MOST of us want. He has fallen very short of these expectations in my opinion.

Now, to address the issue of respect. I believe that respect is not something that someone has to EARN. Respect should be given to everyone only to be rescinded if a person has revealed that they are not worthy. You, sir, are not worthy. For the past year you have done nothing but spout sexist, antagonistic, vile, posts not only to me but to most of the bloggers on this board. You have never been remotely respectful to anyone here.

By the way, I just love how you showed your colors with remarks like those made about the female anchors on Fox. As a matter of fact, I would be willing to bet my health coverage that Meagan Kelley is more educated and more intelligent than you could ever fake. You just think about that the next time you sit on your coach in a darkened room watching Fox news with a hand towel by your side.

Further, when I speak of the sacrifices that my "relatives" have made for this country, it is obvious that I could never fully comprehend the horrific things that they have seen or endured. But I do know OF these sacrifices. Not trying to "ride the coat tails" of anyone. On that point either you misunderstood me or I didn't articulate my meaning well.

Since you are the only person in America that has fully read all 1000 pages of this insane bill and completely understand it's every nuance - why don't YOU just lead all us lowly sheep to the wolf.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Ben Franklin


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 8:10am.

"By the way, I just love how you showed your colors with remarks like those made about the female anchors on Fox. As a matter of fact, I would be willing to bet my health coverage that Meagan Kelley is more educated and more intelligent than you could ever fake. You just think about that the next time you sit on your coach in a darkened room watching Fox news with a hand towel by your side."

Dawn, a couple of things. Great choice of Megyn to illustrate your point. She was in fact a practicing lawyer before joining FOX. A battle of wits between those two would be over before it started.

I will say your imagery of Bonker$ with his hand towel while watching FOX made me laugh. Probably looks like Homer Simpson's boss Mr. Burns while sitting there. In any case, he's the one who told on himself. Keep up the good work!!


Submitted by Bonkers on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 8:04pm.

Elections have meaning---even South Carolina's Senator said that when he voted for Sotomayor!

If one party screws up so bad that they alienate every common citizen then they deserve to lose at least until many injustices and mistakes can be cleared.

If Obama has gotten any respect whatsoever from you or any other conservative on here, I haven't seen it.

I have said many times many conservatives on here have correct--when they were. They got the respect they deserved. Not agreeing with everything is not disrespect! Faking smiles and half-truths to make someone like you is not showing respect

As to female anchors on FOX (I don't feel correct in calling them anchors) reading from screens just like everyone else on TV who isn't capable of giving the news as it should be, I can't agree that very many of them indicate great intelligence over a day's time.
But that isn't what bothers me--they obviously are there to be the attraction and that is cheap.

As to "reading" congressional bills they are written by lawyers so that they will be implemented as intended. I just can't fine Euthanasia, paid abortions, elimination of Medicare, and all of the other lies being bloviated to the public as anything but trying to work up the simple minded Bible-thumpers and Sarah Palin!

Now, if I have ever used as much foul language and disrespected anyone as much as you have in your missives to me--then I will go tending bar. I do know how! Putting up with the language, thugs and drunks is the part I can't do.

meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 8:57am.

"If Obama has gotten any respect whatsoever from you or any other conservative on here, I haven't seen it."

He is getting the respect he deserves from us. After everything you and your kind said about Bush, you're lucky we're this civil.

"I just can't fine Euthanasia, paid abortions, elimination of Medicare, and all of the other lies being bloviated to the public as anything but trying to work up the simple minded Bible-thumpers and Sarah Palin!"

Being called simple minded by a deranged old fool doesn't hurt. FYI...


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 8:18am.

"As to female anchors on FOX (I don't feel correct in calling them anchors) reading from screens just like everyone else on TV who isn't capable of giving the news as it should be, I can't agree that very many of them indicate great intelligence over a day's time.
But that isn't what bothers me--they obviously are there to be the attraction and that is cheap."

Kind of an interesting observation that they are 'the attraction and that is cheap". Since you were the one who said:

"As to CNN sheep, I often prefer FOX due to the coral of stalls in the back room full of long-legged short-skirted women who are paraded out and positioned in high chairs for a good view."

Kinda makes you look cheap, since you fell for the attraction and cheapness.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 5:23pm.

Damn you go girl.. Well said hoorah

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Sun, 08/16/2009 - 1:24pm.

I can't help it. This bonkers man brings out the fight in me.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Ben Franklin


Robert W. Morgan's picture
Submitted by Robert W. Morgan on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 6:27am.

The quick and cute answer to that is that my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are all taken away by any nationalization of our health care system. Sure it needs changing, but so does the car business and the housing business. Does government rush in there and try to fix an entire industry in 3 weeks? Oh wait, it did. Cash for clunkers. Hope and change. More of the same. Let's just trust government to suddenly become efficient.

Back to rights. I think the 10th Bill of Rights or 10th Amendment says it best - hands off! Power belongs to the states or the people. What could be more obvious.


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 08/14/2009 - 7:14am.

Right to life and happiness is in the constitution, is it not?

I can't be either if I am sick and no insurance.

Submitted by skyspy on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 6:16pm.

The beauty of this country is you are free to work hard. You have the ability to make the most of your life. Our country was built by people who wanted to be free from the torture of socialism/facist way of life. They wanted to be free to work hard.

Since when did something that is a benefit that some companies provide as an added incentive to attract the most qualitfied people become a "right"?. Is it listed in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution of the United States of America??.

Using the "logic"??? of the extremist liberals we should all be driving company cars as well. After all some companies provide company cars as a perk. So using the "logic" of the extreme liberals it is now my right to have a government car for my use. It is my birthright. I deserve it. After all the big companies provide it for all of their employees so......I need my reparations, I need my fair share of what everybody else is getting.

You can get insurance very economically. Check out Kaiser HMO. You also might want to check out how they ration out care so you can get a good look at what you will get from our guuuvvvment.

Submitted by MacTheKnife on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 3:38pm.

Besides, if ignorance truly id bliss, you would be simply giddy.

I guess using your logic all of the dead have a right to be disappointed that the Declaration of Independence let them down.

Funny, how bad your logic is, you brave democrats will kill an innocent unborn child but won't water board a terrorist attempting to kill Americans.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 3:59pm.

A Human FETUS or a Baby SEAL?

They have no problems opening the skull of a Human Fetus to suck their Brains out but hurt a baby Seal OMG will they have a fit...
Their selective "Outrage" is comical at times and others stomach churning..

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Submitted by Bonkers on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 4:30pm.

But don't you want local citizens to decide for themselves what to do and not have Washington telling them?

I thought that was your political philosophy!

Maybe they should tell you HOW MANY KIDS YOU CAN HAVE?

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 4:40pm.

I do NOT want the Government telling us what we can or cannot do in our lives.. If the people in say Georgia wants to Legalize Abortion then we live with it.. If they vote to regulate it... then the State should be able to do so..without interference from the Government...
The US Government has a certain set of responcibilities that the Consitution has laid out.. Beyond that the 10th Admendment applies..
Abortion is not a RIGHT and neither is Healthcare.. Thus the US Government has no Constitutional ARTHORITY to do either..

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Submitted by lion on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 5:41pm.

"States Rights" has a sordid history.

States rights meant justification for slavery. States rights meant justification of Jim Crow laws. States Rights meant you did not want your children to go to school with black children. I could go on and on.

The concept of "states rights" has not led this country forward. It has been a refuge for those opposing progress in America.

All Americans are entitled to healthcare. Their access to healthcare does not depend upon which state they live in. We are all Americans--not Georgians, Montanians, Iowans, etc.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 8:51pm.

Please share your research sources on that.. Just how did "States Rights" cause all the woes you mentioned??

"All Americans are entitled to healthcare."

At whose expense.. What responcibility does the individual hold?
How are they "entitled" to it?
Who gave them that "entitlement"
What re-course does the individual have to collect their "entitlement"?
How far does the "entitlement" go? Does the Government have the right to force the collection of the "entitlement" for re-distribution?

Talking points are easy.. it's the answers that is hard... But give it the old college try..

Oh and you might want to take a look at this.. I would not be blaming every woe on States Rights, because if you do.. then you are blaming the democrats themselves.. Read a little history before you go blaming it on one group..

Democrats for segregation and States Rights

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 08/17/2009 - 10:40pm.

Just where in the definition and history of 'states rights' is Lion wrong? The 'southern states' were the Dixie Democrats - not the Democrats of today. . .and history appears to be repeating itself, unfortunately. Labels mean little. It is actions, deeds, etc., which define American citizens today. Forget entitlement! We identify ourselves as the most compassionate country in the world - yet we have allowed too many citizens during this horrific time of unemployment to be without adequate healthcare. The cost of staying healthy in this country has reached an outlandish number - and many citizens cannot afford decent healthcare without some assistance. This debate has been fruitful! Smaller insurance companies are realizing the need, and offering the insurance programs that supposedly may be offered by the public option. If the insurance companies can offer reasonable health insurance -then let the public option go for now - and lets get our health care within reason and our citizens assured of being able to afford decent care. . within their budget. Too many people today are unemployed and without benefits that they would have if they had a job. Do we let them die? Do we keep paying higher premiums to cover the cost of ER rooms being used without payment?

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 08/18/2009 - 7:46am.

That is what this is about... 93% of Americans have Health care or access to it...
80% rate their Healthcare as Good or Excellent...

Where is it written that the GOVERNMENT must make me my "brothers" keeper...?

Morally we should be.. but where does the Government have the arthority?

The problem DM is the Government.. REGULATIONS... you cannot shop your insurance across State lines.. why.. the Government will not let you...

As to Lion...and States Rights.. how did that cause Jim Crow? The Politicians read DEMOCRATS did the deed not the 10th Admendment...

Just like the 2nd Admendment does not cause someone to commit Murder...

"Any People who expect to be both IGNORANT and FREE, in a state of CIVILIZATION, expects what NEVER was and NEVER will be."
THOMAS JEFFERSON


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