Ozone and health: Where’s the science?

Tue, 05/30/2006 - 3:44pm
By: The Citizen

By JOEL SCHWARTZ

Americans spend tens of billions dollars each year on measures to reduce emissions of smog-forming pollutants from motor vehicles, power plants, and a host of other sources. Costs continue to rise over time, as the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) tightens its ozone standards and adopts ever more stringent regulations.

These costs might be worth bearing if ozone were exacting a large toll on people’s health. But even as environmental activists have become more strident in raising health alarms, evidence has mounted that ozone at current levels is causing little or no harm, even in the most polluted areas of the country.

For instance, the prevalence of asthma nearly doubled during the past 25 years — but at the same time, levels of ozone and other air pollutants sharply declined. Emergency room visits for asthma are at their lowest in July and August — when ozone levels are at their highest.

The government’s own research even undermines ozone regulations. A government-funded study of thousands of children in California found children who grew up in the highest-ozone areas had a 30 percent lower risk of developing asthma, when compared with children in low-ozone areas.

More recently, epidemiologists claimed thousands of Americans die prematurely each year due to ozone. The claim is based on small statistical correlations between daily ozone levels and daily deaths. But correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation, as recent embarrassing medical reversals have shown.

For example, based on correlation studies, medical experts presumed that hormone-replacement therapy (HRT) and Vitamin A supplements prevent heart disease, calcium supplements prevent osteoporosis, and a low-fat diet reduces cancer risks. But randomized trials showed these claims are either greatly exaggerated or downright false. In fact, Vitamin A turned out to increase cardiovascular risk.

The ozone-mortality claim should be treated even more skeptically. First, it is based on the same unreliable methods that have led medical authorities astray in other areas. Second, even though ozone was correlated with higher premature mortality on average, ozone seemed to protect against death in about one-third of cities. How could ozone kill people in some cities and save them in others? More likely, both results are chance correlations rather than real effects.

According to an EPA fact sheet, “ozone can irritate lung airways and cause inflammation much like a sunburn ... People with respiratory problems are most vulnerable, but even healthy people that are active outdoors can be affected when ozone levels are high.”

But these alarming claims stand in stark contrast to EPA’s own estimates of the actual health effects of ozone. In the journal Environmental Health Perspectives, EPA scientists predicted that going from ozone levels during 2002, which were by far the highest of the past several years, down to national attainment of the stringent new federal eight-hour ozone standard would reduce respiratory-related hospital admissions and emergency room visits by no more than a few tenths of a percent.

Likewise, researchers from USC followed nearly 1,800 California children for eight years. They found ozone had no effect on lung development, even though the study included areas that exceed the federal ozone standard more than 100 days per year.

Despite the evidence, in its State of the Air report, the American Lung Association claimed, “Almost half of all Americans are living in counties where [ozone] places them at risk for decreased lung function.”

Regulators and environmental activists don’t maintain their jobs, power, and funding by admitting we’ve solved the problems that justify their existence. Rather, they stay in business by creating an appearance of serious and pervasive harm from air pollution, regardless of whether such alarms are justified. Unfortunately, journalists pass along the false health alarms with little or no critical review.

Even many health experts and medical researchers contribute to air pollution scares. Despite the evidence against air pollution as a cause of asthma, public health authorities around the country continue to cite air pollution as a key factor in rising asthma prevalence.

None of this would matter if reducing air pollution were free. But Americans will have to spend more than $100 billion per year — about $1,000 per household — just to attain the current eight-hour ozone standard. EPA is now considering an even tougher ozone standard that will be even more costly.

That money — or more correctly, the labor, capital, and know-how that money represents — would otherwise go to health care, food, housing, education, leisure, and other things Americans value and that would genuinely improve their welfare. Instead, for this stupendous sum we will eliminate at best a few tenths of a percent of all respiratory disease and distress.

Joel Schwartz (joel@joelschwartz.com) is a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and a policy advisor to The Heartland Institute in Chicago (www.heartland.org).

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Submitted by snark on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:56pm.

If you're an Ann Coulter fan at all, she'll be on Jay Leno tonight.

kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:01pm.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 2:49pm.

Okay, that was pretty ignorant.

Shame on you Mr. Schwartz for leading astray those people that don't know any better.

I think it is hilarious that you are presented as a scholar and yet you contradict every scholarly publication on the subject. I love how you twist bits and pieces out of actually credible publications to get the answer you want. Oh wait... You are from "heartland.org" ah.. now it all makes sence.

Heartland hardly has a reputation for their scientific integrity. Heartland has a reputation for unbridled optimism and faith in the market. Any opinion that doesn't make it through their rose colored glasses get thrown away.

Dear editor, why are we posting articles from "conservative" think tanks. I am a conservative, I supported Bush last election.. but I'm not an idiot. Please don't insult my intelligence by posting ultra right wing propaganda.

How about some real science?


Submitted by Harvey on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 7:15pm.

Okay. I feel like I feel asleep in biology and woke up to a really bad instructor. Where did he come from and how do we get rid of him.

Submitted by Harvey on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 7:17pm.

Sorry.

Submitted by snark on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 3:21pm.

Ahhh, a conservative and a Bush supporter, eh? Good, because I thought you were one of those crackpots who spend the day on Google trying to debunk science.

kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 3:53pm.

Until a few years ago I bought the ultra right wing "research" without questioning it.

I started doing my own research and found that I had been deceived.

Neither of the extremes really have a handle on reality. The center of scientific thought (yes there is a center) is where I aim to be.

Look at the heartland website, after you have had your fill, try reading some peer reviewed scientific publications (you might have to go to a college library) You will find that these people are not dealing with reality.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 7:46pm.

Silly goofball kohesion. Conservatives don't suddenly lose it and become left wing wackos. It's the libs that finally grow up and become more conservative. I used to be one of you and now I'm a proud extremist. It's funny how far left you guys tend to drag the boundries of the so called center. You are hardly center. People in the center don't stand for squat. They sit on the fence and blow around with the wind. You hardly do that. I give you credit. At least you stand strongly for your views so your nowhere near the center.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 11:02pm.

I am not center.. I am a green conservative.

I am prolife, I believe the clergy should be straight, I believe in small government. I believe people who continue to have children they can't support should be castrated (I have been accused of being ultra conservative, ultra liberal, fascist etc for this opinion)

I also believe that we should care for God's creation. I am rather green. I don't drive unless I have to. I eat organic food some of which I will be growing myself.

I have listened extensively to Rush Limbaugh, Janet Parschall etc but I also listen to NPR and read environmental publications etc. I put all the pieces together because I think all sides have something to contribute.

I am of of the most opened minded persons you will ever meet. (don't even start with that brain leaking out bit) I get along in most circles (other than the extreme left / right)

Sorry, conservatives do swing more to the center on occasion. My wife and I certainly have and so have many of our acquaintances. I think it is a generational thing. The entire emergent church movement is a swing away from extreme conservatism (not that this is the purpose of the emergent movement)

You are right that people usually become more conservative when they are older but I think we are talking about a different kind of conservative. I am already morally conservative. I am not conservative when it comes to the environment. I am rather radical. It seems that alot of young conservatives are becoming rabid environmentalists. Well, maybe rabid is to strong.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 9:27am.

A green conservative sounds like some kind of a John Kerry line. What the heck are you really. And I'm asking that in a respectful manner.

1. You state that you are a researcher of the Bible and that you believe it's teachings. Yet you have an extreme viewpoint of and support evolution very staunchly while disregarding the bible teachings of the issue.

2. You claim you are a rabid environmentalist. Everyone knows their agenda is truly of a socialist nature. They hate and fight against all things that make this country a great place to live and work. (As a Conservative I also want to take care of our environment and be a good steward of our land. The differnence is that I do not use my stewardship of our resources as a political weapon).

3. You claim you listen to NPR radio and Rush Limbaugh and you "put the pieces together" to formulate a thought process. (As a Conservative I can't understand how you can listen to NPR for more than 5 minutes.)

4. You claim Conservatives "swing to the center on occasion". Conservatives do not "swing around on issues". Most of them I know are anchored in truth and proven methods until proven wrong. (I as a Conservative will change my opinions when proven wrong but I will not "swing around" and "dangle in the wind" to support what seems to be the fashionable stance at the moment).

I'm sorry kohesion but I'm having a hard time buying into what you claim you are. I am tired of all the environmental and economic hype and panic that the Left has attempted to scare me and everyone else with over the years. In the 60's and 70's it was the the cooling of the earth and we were going into an ice age....never happened. Then it was acid rain in the 80's and we were going to lose all the trees and plants and the earth would become barren....never happened. In the 90's it was the ozone layer and we were all going to burn up and die....gee the ozone hole has been getting smaller. In this decade it's all about global warming and the debate goes on as to whether it is caused by us evil people (conservatives) or we are in natural cycle or perhaps because of the sun's intensity peaking out or whatever.

The crap and rhetoric we have thrown at us daily is just meaningless and exhausting anymore. Each morning we wake up to the "scare of the day". Whoopee! for a change how about showing me a rabid evironmentalist that will get off his or her ass and grab a trash bag and spend a day or two a month picking up trash off the side of the road or out of a stream. Show me one that will put their I-Pod down and get off their cell phone and crawl their lazy ass out their air conditioned apartment and go out and trim a tree to preserve it's health or take on a plot of kudzu to preserve a forested area. They ain't gonna do squat because all they do is use the environment and evil business to blame everyone else for everthing in an effort to take the attention away from their own pathetic, lazy and unproductive lives.

Same way with business. Everyone's whining about the so called oil shortage. Remember the coffee and sugar shortages years ago. Oh..No.. Only the rich will be able to buy it from now on. Think about all the shortages that we have freaked out about over the years and after a little while the hoopla dies off and the prices moderate and it's business as usual.

How about all the health scares we get slammed with daily? This flu or that flu that's going to wipe us out. Fat is bad for you- Fat is good for you. Vitamins are good for you - Vitamins are bad for you. The same could be said for beef, eggs, medicines, exercise. Heck these so called scientists that scare us with this crap all the time are just "swinging around" without any solid proofs backing the Bull Shirt they spew out at us daily.

Did it ever occur to anyone that in the scientific community there are producers and then there are leaches? The scientist that are producers solve problems, discover and create medical cures, invent products that solve problems, and accomplish great things. Then there are the leaches that can't get real jobs in the scientific community. So they latch on to the money trees of government and the educational systems to justify their existences and their importance. They then come up with all the Bull Shirt they use to push whatever political or social agenda that excites them and then attempt to scare the hell out of the rest of us to get their way.

If your a Conservative Kohesion then quit swinging and get grounded.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 9:40am.

1) My interpretation is only extreme in Southern US Baptist circles. Travel a little bit and you will find my position is pretty mainstream world wide. You don't think I made this position up do you? Alot of people have a similar position.

2) Yeah, I used to think that environmentalists are wackos to... Some of them are, maybe alot of them are, but not all of them.

3) I used to hate NPR, it made me mad to listen to it. I found that NPR gave me more in depth news rather than little 10 second tidbits. I got used to it. Also, I didn't realize until recently that NPR content is somewhat is regional. NPR is MUCH more conservative down here than it is in DC where I got used to listening to it.

4) Well I can't argue with a silly statement absolute statement like that. You have seen what you have seen and I have seen what I have seen.

I am the same way, I can change my opinion with good evidence. That is why I have changed sides on a few things.

Yeah, I got fed up with false prediction to. The thing is that the predictions are true but sometimes the timing is off. Remember Jimmy Carter thought we were going to run out of oil by 1985 and he told us that. Well, everyone says he was wrong.. Yeah, he got the date wrong.. waaay wrong but the concept is right. One day we will have an oil shortage, probably quite soon.

Someone from NASA came to our school in first grade, told us that if we didn't make changes, we were going to have a climate crisis. (in so many words) It made me so mad, I didn't believe it. Now I can see it happening and I know they were right. They were about 5 to 10 years off on their timing though as they said it would happen by the year 2000.

The people on this board are not just conservatives. You guys (and girls) are ultra right wingers. Have you noticed that every (or nearly every) elected official from the republican party either bad mouths or avoids Ann Coulter like the plague? Yet on this board, several seem to be fans. I grew up with conservatives and ultra right wingers. I know the difference.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 12:14pm.

On point number one mainstream doesn't mean right. And I'm not a Southern US Baptist but PTC Guy is right on this issue. If you believe the Bible and you believe who Jesus says he was then you must accept the premise that the Bible is truth. Jesus backed the creation theory as fact and not as a parable. That's the point of all these discussions that confuses me on these issues is how people claim to be believers yet they contradict what the Bible teaches. Now Basmati you do not need to start trashing me because I discussed this point. We already know you HATE Christians. My point is in this post that you can't just "swing to the center" on this. Either you believe the Bible is fact and you believe in creationism or the Bible is a fable which would give the evolution theory much less competition.

As to your comments on Ann Coulter the only reason politicians avoid her is because they are afraid of pissing off a few voters. I read her in Human Events and find her very sarcastic and funny at the same time. I probably wouldn't be as blunt as she is but...you know what...people are buying it.


mudcat's picture
Submitted by mudcat on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 7:09pm.

Ann Coulter says what most of us are thinking, but are afraid to say at work or in public. She has the whole liberal victim mentality, income redistribution, baby killing, anti-American, atheist, anti-achievement, Bush-hating agenda down pat (no disrespect intended for Mrs. Nixon)

No politician should ever try to do her shtick, but she is an extremely talented writer and you have to laugh at the funny stuff - especially the discrediting of the liberal "mind" and religon.

That being said, she is way over the top with her baiting comments and the world would be a better place if she went away and took Al Gore, John Kerry and Hillary with her. Then we could call it even and get on with it.
meow


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 8:20pm.

Yeah, the thing is that it is even harder to pin a "liberal" down than a conservatives. Liberals are all over the map. It is one of their weaknesses.

Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaughs stereo typical "liberal" is rather ridiculous. If all (or even most) liberals fit the description, I would probably agree more. Liberals don't really have a uniting force like conservatives (especially Christian conservatives) do. You really can't pin them down.

Only someone with an overly simplistic world view would lump everyone they don't like into the "liberal" category.

Maybe if if people would listen more and talk less there would be more understanding. Rush and Ann certainly don't help the sitation.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 12:23pm.

Yeah, I'll give you that she is hilarious and a genious. I also think she is ridiculous on purpose to sell more books.

Yeah.. That is a hard place to be isn't it. Calling yourself a Bible believing Christian and being intellectually honest with the evidence.

It is hard to make it all add up so I don't even try. I am just happy to believe both. As I've said before, it is only the western world view where very thing has to be figured out and make sence. I am content to say I don't know how everything fits together. It was really rather freeing to get over my western upbringing in this way.

I learned this when I was in Asia. You see, if you want to be an affective missionary in China, you don't attack evolution. They don't really care about the debate. What they want to see is how does your faith impact your life.

Why must we figure everything out in life, especially when we don't have all the information. We see things through a glass dimly right? Then why do we have to have such strong opinions on things like evolution.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 1:04pm.

Trouble is you don't look at all the evidence. You look at the conclusions they declare.

And you reject the Bible in the light of prejudiced science. Real telling on your claim to be Christian.

As said before, bye. Time to get off the Merry-Go-Round.

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 8:12am.

Definitions can get in the way.

I am a moral conservative in all things.

That means I do not agree with conservative meaning pro big business in all things.

But that does not make me liberal either. I believe in personal responsibility and reject shades of gray.

And I believe in a responsibility in caring for the earth.

But that does not mean we do not use it. It means we use it wisely.

So, you are not alone in not fitting traditional molds and definitions.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 9:51am.

Great, we are making progress then.

I always said I was "for taking care of creation" but I burned gas and used electricity as if there was no environmental impact. I was wasteful, didn't recycle (that one is still hard around here)

I was talking the talk but not walking the walk when it came to taking care of creation.

Now I am closer to where I should be. I haven't turned my AC on yet. (although I might today) I walk, or take a golf cart almost everywhere. I drive a vegetable oil car (once or twice a week). I use almost no electricity (my laptop is 30W max) I buy local produce when I can. I think it is a much better way to live.

I used to reject shades of grey. Now I embrace them. I think there are some essentials that are black and white. I think there are alot more gray areas than black and white ones. I have found that many Christians who profess "black and white" actually live in shades of gray.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 1:06pm.

Yep, many do.

But there are no shades of gray. No situational ethics.

Things are made up of many smaller issues quite often. Each is black and white. That makes the outcome complex.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 4:32pm.

Be careful, Kohesion! Failure to adhere to a rigid belief in ultra right wing "research" may put you at odds with The Citizen forum's two most prominent faith-based scientists, GitReal(and assorted aliases) and PTC Guy.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 7:50pm.

No matter what the conversation is the cat eater - hate monger has to make it a point to make sure everyone clearly understands that he despises anyone that has a link to Christianity. And that would be anyone that does not agree with him.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 4:58pm.

Thats okay, Jesus was at odds with the religous people of his day.

I don't know of any faith based scientists who are prominent.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 5:42pm.

I posted links to a site that give you some, below.

Here is a quote with some names.

Other prominent signatories include U.S. National Academy of Sciences member Philip Skell; American Association for the Advancement of Science Fellow Lyle Jensen; evolutionary biologist and textbook author Stanley Salthe; Smithsonian Institution evolutionary biologist and a researcher at the National Institutes of Health’s National Center for Biotechnology Information Richard von Sternberg; Editor of Rivista di Biologia / Biology Forum --the oldest still published biology journal in the world-- Giuseppe Sermonti; and Russian Academy of Natural Sciences embryologist Lev Beloussov.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 10:03am.

Having a problem with Darwinian Evolution does not imply being a "faith based" scientist.

I am related to two scientists on that list and while both don't believe in evolution, neither one is a "faith based" scientist. They actually believe in facts.

Neither of them have looked at the evidence for evolution I might add. Not recently anyway. One of them is top 10 in the world in his field, one of them is not. While they might know ALOT in their niche, they know nothing about biology. Neither of them are well read on evidence for evolution, infact, both of them avoid it like the plague, they would rather just contradict it and not think about it.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:10pm.

I bet I could find hundreds...

Stop being desceitful (or is it ignorant)

Scientific concensus is against you. Deal with it and stop lieing to yourself and everyone else.

You obviously care more about defending your conservative viewpoint than the truth. Stop taking the easy way out. The world isn't black and white, it isn't as simple as you think.

Learn to admit that you might (sometimes) be wrong.


Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 7:45pm.

Have you ever heard of Project Steve?

It's a parody of a long-standing creationist tradition of amassing lists of "scientists who doubt evolution" or "scientists who dissent from Darwinism." This is a favored tactic of the creationists. The evolutionists sought out scientists ONLY with the first name of "Steve" and got them to sign their names in support of Darwin's theory of evolution. Because "Steves" are only about one percent of scientists, it incidentally makes the point that tens of thousands of scientists support evolution. I think the current total is 367 "Steves" supporting evolution, which correalates to about 36,700 evolutionists.

Here's the link
Project Steve: An Intelligent Designers Worst Nightmare

Oh, and as far as PTC Lie goes, I wouldn't take him too seriously. I base my opinions on facts, he bases his facts on his opinions. I gave him documented studies that 95% of all scientists support evolution in some form, he dismissed it right away because it didn't fit in with his preconceived notions of science. When you really get him worked up, he'll start spouting off about how science is actually a religion.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 10:35pm.

You know what is sad? These people who are detracting from evolution are the ones that are drawing the line. There doesn't have to be this huge God vs Science debate.

I wonder if something is wrong with the water down here?

Are you from PTC or a transplant?


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 8:08am.

There doesn't have to be this huge God vs Science debate.

Really?

The Bible says those who claim to be Christian are subject to being judged, corrected and rebuked by others in the Church (Body of Christ, not RCC on any other denomination) when the hold to, preach and teach false doctrine.

We are to defend Sound Doctrine.

Theistic Evolution is very unsound doctrine.

How can any earnest Christian say it doesn't matter?

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Submitted by Sickened on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 4:09pm.

How can any Christian question anyone else's faith? Judge not lest ye be judged. A true Christian does not spew hate and filth. Ever.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 5:02pm.

Thanks so much. You've been on here a whopping hour and twenty minutes and have you have cleared things up for all of us confused folk here. Thanks for your refreshing words and perspective on judging.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 4:25pm.

How can any Christian question anyone else's faith? Judge not lest ye be judged. A true Christian does not spew hate and filth. Ever.

Ah, the New Christianity mantra.

Obviously you have not studied. If you had you would know you took that portion of a verse passage totally out of context.

Christ and the Apostles command us to judge. But judge righteously.

We are also commanded to rebuke and correct false teachings. That demands judgement first.

We are told to defend Sound Doctrine. To defend requires one to first recognize unsound doctrine.

This issue is covered by verse and language on CTZ. I am not going to repost all the material here.

Christ most assuredly denounced the Pharisees and Sadducees. The Apostles most assuredly wrote letters to the churchs often raking them over the coals for error.

How does on preach to convert someone if they do not judge their beliefs and fate?

No one that has read the Bible in earnest can honestly hold your position.

We are truly in the times warned about. When many with itching ears would turn to false teachers declaring pleasing things. When Christ would be on many tongues but far away in most hearts. When Sound Doctrine would not be bearable.

Look at the churches of Revelation. The warnings. And what is the last church told during the last age? Change or get spit out.

Many will be in the Tribulation Period because they will not change and will embrace the itching ears religion of the Anti-Christ.

Verses, and more, on this issue are posted on CTZ. You will find your position is anti-Biblical.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 8:26pm.

And you have no preconceived notions of science, no faith and all you have is facts?

Basmati, you still cannot even get quotes and restatements right.

No. Science is not a religion. But Humanism sure is. As is Atheism.

Both have doctrines, faith statements and gods. And both pretend Science is their Holy Writing that can answer it all.

Psst. Still waiting for the answer on Ultimate Beginnings from your all knowing science.

But not holding my breath since you will not answer because you cannot answer. No more than any Humanist or Atheist can.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:45pm.

A favored tool of those who have no answers.

I am not ignorant and it is obvious I have studied the issue far more than you.

I began as an evolutionist and found it could not hold water.

You call yourself a Christian, but I see zero evidence, here, to support that claim.

I ask again, evolution is totally denied in the Bible. Obviously you do not uphold the Bible.

It is easy to call oneself Christian. But the proof is in the pudding, as the old saying goes. And I see no proof coming from you since your only answer to my challenge has been anger and ad hominem attacks.

By the way, scientific consensus rejects Christ is God incarnate. In fact rejects God altogether.

So, are you going to be consistant and back those claims as well?

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 4:48pm.

We have been through this before, basmati.

You magically disappeared when you could not reply to the fact Atheistic and Evolutionist scientista are operating by faith, not fact.

Still waiting for your scientific explanation of Ultimate Beginnigs. And you just declaring you don't feel like getting into that proves my point.

You are hypocritical on the faith issue. Quick to try to declare that as the sole functionality of those who disagree with your declaraton. But silent on admitting that you are operating on faith as well.

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 5:02pm.

That is a rather simplistic continuum. Who said evolutionist and creationist are diametrically opposed. Why is evolutionist lumped together with athestist.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 3:29pm.

Seems pretty easy to do these days. It's kind of like watching the weather. If you don't like what one scientist says just change the channel and get another opinion from another so called expert. If he doesn't fit your agenda just move on to the next one. Kind of like shopping for shoes. Try shopping your science to fit your way of thinking.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 3:55pm.

Actually, if you only listen to consumer media, you will be reconciling continual contradictions. The media takes a study, looks it over and summerizes it in a 10 second to 30 second blip. If you think about it, study results are very complex.

Read science journals. You will find that there is actually quite a bit of concensus on many topics. Even if there is disagreement, it usually isn't on fundamentals.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 4:26pm.

Science is valuable and needed.

BUT, anyone who followed it for years knows there is an 'elite' that determine what these supposed consensuses, on push button issues, are.

If you disagree with them, good luck getting your degrees, being published, continuing to be published and getting key jobs.

Look at evolution. The elite have anointed it as fact when even some of the most die hard, but honest, evolutionists, will tell you flat that is a faith statement, not a reality.

As one has said, the best evidence, which is still subject to challenge, can fit in one pile in one corner of a casket. His words, now mine.

Statistical analysis, best minds in the world, using the best computers have declared it impossible. The equivalent of a fully functional resulting from a lightening strike on a junk yard.

And Punctuated Equilibrium, supported by many, acknowledges the evidence is not there to support Darwinian ism. Yet Darwinianism is sacrosanct to many.

Or, ultimate beginnings. You cannot shove die hard evolutionists to take on that issue. Why? Because it totally defies science.

Then the issues of the ozone layer and Global Warning. One camp declares the sky is falling. Another rightly shows this group conveniently overlooks historical cyclical sun activity, magnetic activity and a large number of other facts.

Do I think over deforestation hurts the earth? Yes, I do.

Do I think use of fossil fuel is as destructive as claimed. No. Historical examination of Europe, when wood was used to heat, and such, in unbelievable quantities, was far more damaging and widespread.

Fossil fuels are incredibly clean in comparison.

Does that mean we should stop trying to make them clean? Or find better alternatives? No.

I even remember reading, in the vaunted science journals, that homosexuality was natures natural step to homosexuality overpopulation. And raping was a natural genetic drive to ensure reproduction.

So, what is my point? The scientific elite have agendas. And they promote them aggressively. Therefore, don't just swallow everything said as 'fact.'

Often those fundamentals are based on agendas. Not solid fact.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:44pm.

Yeah, 10 years ago you could argue that and even then you were stretching things. To do so now just shows that you have not kept up with the research. There is nothing cyclical about the massive acceleration of climate change we are seeing.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:52pm.

Your ignorance is showing.

We just reached the peak of the sun's activity, in example.

By the way, are our environmental issues causing the melting of the polar caps on Mars as well? Or is the sun cycle?

Other cycles last over 100 years. Some thousands of years.

You don't have a clue. You are just babbling cliches and rhetoric you have picked up.

The more you try to salvage your statements and positions the more confused and ill informed you are looking. You need to admit you are wrong or just go silent.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:58pm.

Actually, I am a full time researcher.

Does your personal attack mean that you give up? Why don't you educate me instead, if there is something I don't know, I would love to learn about it. I am a veracious learner.

Why don't you send me a science journal on this. I will send you any study you want to support what I have said so far.


Submitted by snark on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 8:41pm.

A full time researcher. Did I call that one or what? Smiling

But hey, that stuff about how you used to believe in creationism and you're a conservative is good. Because, really, no one's caught on to that ploy yet. I think it's original with you.

Anyway.. I knew as soon as the subject shifted to evolution PTC Guy would take it from there.

Query to PTC Guy - Have you read Ann Coulter's new book Godless? I'm about a third of the way through and haven't gotten to her evolution-debunking chapters yet. I'd be interested to know what you thought of it.

(And I'm sure I know what you think of it, Full Time Researcher, so please don't let me take up any of your valuable time.)

kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 10:19pm.

"The ethic of conservation is the explicit abnegation of man's dominion over the Earth. The lower species are here for our use. God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet -- it's yours. That's our job: drilling, mining and stripping. Sweaters are the anti-Biblical view. Big gas-guzzling cars with phones and CD players and wet bars -- that's the Biblical view."

I don't think I need to add anything else. She makes a fool out of herself without any help from me.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 10:55am.

Sorry Ann, looks like noone is stepping up to the plate to defend you. (big suprise there)

Bad Ann, stop that hissing, go crawl back in your hole.

You see, the problem with Ann isn't so much that she is conservative, more that she is just plain mean. I think she just wants to sell books. Why else would she say such outrageous things on television. I guess it is possible she has tourettes syndrome.

Ann Coulter = Michael Moore in my book. They both have some good points but neither one is fair or even kind. Both sow seeds of discord.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:40pm.

Is that supposed to be a slant?

Actually, I own a software company and a small rental company. I worked my butt off to get where I am thank you very much.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:48pm.

None of those things make you right on the issues.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Submitted by lifeinptc on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:46pm.

There is something strange about your arrival.

kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:54pm.

You are right. I am not real, I am a figment of your imagination.

I live in PTC sorry, I am real and I'm not going away. Smiling


Submitted by snark on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:53pm.

He is a full time researcher, he owns a software company, a rental company and maybe some full time other things I'd discover if I read all his posts. Maybe we should be more respectful.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 10:29pm.

Hey guys good call. This dude isn't real. It looks like the gay guy from last week has reinvented himself. This dude has more handles than I used to. (Thought you might like that one Basmati the Christian Hater)


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 10:43pm.

This is funny. Now I am gay. Can you hear the lisp when I write?

Actually, I am happily married. Other than the fact that my wife thinks I'm too conservative.

You probably know me, I am somewhat active in the community.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 8:54pm.

Query to PTC Guy - Have you read Ann Coulter's new book Godless? I'm about a third of the way through and haven't gotten to her evolution-debunking chapters yet. I'd be interested to know what you thought of it.

Sorry, have not read it.

I have heard a lot of what she has said on TV. Made a lot of good points on other issues.

I have so much going on I don't believe I will get to read it.

I will ask on the site in my profile if anyone has read it. See what they say.

By the way, the wiser convert angle is a very old forum stunt. Old and worn out by those who have seen it over and over.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Submitted by snark on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:05pm.

Thanks PTC Guy.

PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:15pm.

You are welcome.

HERE is a link to the question.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Submitted by snark on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:33pm.

Thanks. I'll try to keep watch on the thread.

By the way, I believe there are 3-4 chapters instead of just 1.

Submitted by snark on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:06pm.

I've missed his posts.

PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:16pm.

I am sure if around he would have posted on this.

Must be very busy or away.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 8:05pm.

I repeat, if consensus among scientist equals fact, then Christ was not God? YES or NO?

And where in the Bible, since you claim to be a Christian, is evolution supported? It isn't.

Educate you? Hmmmm. You never did show me a transitional living species. Because there are none.

But you did claim evolution was going on all around us. So there MUST be multiple ones.

Stop being a hypcrite on this issue. On the ultimate Beginnings you plead Christian and Creator. But on evolution you reject the Bible and plead pure science.

Science CANNOT handle the Ultimate Beginnings question. It is a supernatural issue by definition.

I began an evolutionist. From a purely scientific standpoint, it does not withstand analysis. And from a Biblical standpoint it is totally rejected.

Your dodging my questions on Christ and the Bible declares you know you are stuck and cannot answer.

So, trying to dodge and move to periphrial issues is your only avenue of escape. Your only place of comfort.

Read my sig line. Ain't happenin'.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:52pm.

Scientists should not be dealing with the God question just as clergy should not deal in science.

Evolution is actually not mentioned in the bible. We are given a very small picture of creation and that is it.

Actually, I did find you a missing link. Four of them. Would you like for me to send you the research? You never asked when I offered.

Which question about "Christ and the bible" did I not answer?

Actually, there is no comfort in thinking. I wish I was ignorant. Ignorance is bliss. As Solomon says, with knowledge comes sorrow. (paraphrase)

Honestly, I think this is a waste of time. I need facts to convince me, you have none. I can't convince you because you are so stuck on your "conservative" world view. I have told you over and over again that I believe in creation but aren't hearing me. I also believe in evolution which you can't seem to grasp. It's really not that complicated I promise.

How did we get here from energy? That's what I really wanted to talk about.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 8:02am.

Scientists should not be dealing with the God question just as clergy should not deal in science.

A stupid politically and anti-God based statement from the elite who have taken over science and perverted it.

Now, instead of seeking the truth on ALL issues, it is an agenda driven search to eliminate God by far too many.

Problem is there are too many scientist who reject this agenda.

Evolution is actually not mentioned in the bible. We are given a very small picture of creation and that is it.

That is right. Not only not mentioned but fully rejected in the creation accounts.

No. We are given a full Big Picture of creation. It is original creation, not creation via evolution.

I don't see you on CTZ presenting your position there with Biblical analysis.

Fact is the Hebrew makes it quite clear all life was created in species directly from the ground.

Actually, I did find you a missing link. Four of them. Would you like for me to send you the research? You never asked when I offered.

I cited Lucy and the facts around her in response. If yuo have names, name these supposed 4 links.

And you never gave any living intermediates because they do not exist.

Which question about "Christ and the bible" did I not answer?

You pled the majority among scientist for evoltution as proof of evolution.

I replied that the majority also rejects God's existence, thus by your criterion you must believe he also does not exist. And asked you if you agree, YES or NO.

You never responded to any of my challenges on that point.

Actually, there is no comfort in thinking. I wish I was ignorant. Ignorance is bliss. As Solomon says, with knowledge comes sorrow. (paraphrase)

Indeed. And Solomon also said the wisdom of Man is foolishness in the eyes of God.

That does not mean ignorance is bliss. Igorance of God and his truth was death and foolishness as well to Solomon.

Honestly, I think this is a waste of time. I need facts to convince me, you have none.

Running away from my invitation to CTZ, I see.

Fact is there are posts there on evolution already. And posters who will gladly respond and refute your positions point by point.

And, if you post politely they will respond politely. But if you come on swinging sledge hammers, as you have here, you will still get answers, but attached to sledge hammers.

I simply am not going to even try to do so here because this is a Blog script. It lacks the editor and such required to allow full and proper responses.

Totally unable to post fully formated defintions and so on. But on the WYSIWYG editor you can.

I can't convince you because you are so stuck on your "conservative" world view.

I told you 40 some years ago I was an evolutionist. But studies in science showed me it is false.

I am not stuck. I still read and study. But I read and study all. Not just the narrow confines of the elitist.

And as a Christian, if you are in more than name, you have a duty to God to try to honestly and truthfully reconcile the Bible and Science.

I can rconcile them. Statistical Analysis, finding in biology, archaeology and so on, when seen on the pure findings level, endorse original creation.

And I believe in Pre-Adamic Creation. As shown on CTZ, not some of the nut case doctrines out there.

Go there and read. You may get you stuck in the liberal viewpoint shocked into thinking again.

I have told you over and over again that I believe in creation but aren't hearing me. I also believe in evolution which you can't seem to grasp. It's really not that complicated I promise.

And you do not 'get it.' I know what Theistic Evolution teaches.

But I also know it is in total violation of the Bible. It requires a totally non-literal interpretation and perversion of the Hebrew and Greek to embrace it.

How did we get here from energy? That's what I really wanted to talk about.

Valid question.

It got here because YOU linked those who disagree with you position on that issue to those who are 'stupid' enough to also reject evolution.

There is where you went totally wrong.

I began by responding to the enegry issues. By the way, you never did answer what the alternatives are to fossil fuels when I asked and pointed out research has been going on for 30 years and the alternatives have major problems of environment impact as well.

Really. Go to CTZ. I am here going at it with you. But you refuse to go there and debate. So who is the one with the actual closed mind?

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 11:03am.

I cited Lucy and the facts around her in response.

"Facts"? I didn't see any "facts" in your response. Just a global declaration that the Lucy fossil has somehow been "proven" to be a fraud. You offer no concrete evidence to back up your spurious claim (as usual). I suspect the reason you don't accept the research surrounding the "Lucy" fossil is because it's existence runs contrary to your faith-based scientific beliefs, as such, it is by definition apostasy and must be ridiculed and dismissed.

I found that there is a considerable amount of research devoted to disproving the "Lucy" fossil, originating almost exclusively from creationists. What a surprise.

For the most part, they tend to reference one or more of three parties:

The Solly Zuckerman bipedal research, which was conducted in the 1950s (twenty or so years prior to the "Lucy" find). Zuckerman himself admitted later that new evidence has shown his 50 year old conclusions do not withstand scientific study.

The Charles Oxnard research, which claims to debunk the "Lucy"-as-bipedal theory. Why? Because he used a computer to tabulate his findings, and computers don't lie. (Ah, how blissfully ignorant we all were in the halycon early days of computers). No less than 30 scientists have shown that Oxnard's methodology was utter slop and was designed to specifically support a predetermined conclusion.

This leaves the "research" of creationist John Morris and Gary Parker as the sole remaining debunker of "Lucy". These two rabid creationists rely upon quotes taken out of context, conclusions unsupported by facts, half-truths and distortions to "prove" that the "Lucy" fossil was an ape and not a transitional species.
Here is a link showing creationist efforts to debunk "Lucy"
Here's a link documenting all very old fossils found in the past 50 years

It's important to point out that science has, to date, NOT found conclusive evidence that homo hablis is a common ancestor of modern man.

It's equally important to note that, contrary to PTC Guy's wishful "conclusion" above, science has not DISPROVED homo hablis as a common ancestor of modern man.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 12:47pm.

Negative proof demands are invalid as evidence. You should know better.

And you have not researched enough. Numberous non-creationist scientist have rejected Lucy as not being homo or missing link anything.

You throw statements up that there are missing links without one shred of evidence. I reply in kind and my statements are invalid, but your are valid.

Bipedal does not make anything human. That is nuts. Being hominid does not make them homo anything.

Lucy is Australopithecus afarensis, not homo anything.

Research it. Plenty of science sites pop up when you do.

http://www.asu.edu/clas/iho/lucy.html

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 2:52pm.

"Lucy is Australopithecus afarensis, not homo anything". Phew...glad to know that. I never thought Lucy was a homo either. It's also nice to know that I was wrong on kohesion too. Smiling


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 1:02pm.

Sorry bud. Already researched it. Lucy is still valid. I think this has already been addressed, see previous posts.

Your position has been blown SO far out of the water it isn't even worth discussing any more.

Some people still believe the earth is flat. There comes a point when you just have to write them off as idiots.

The only way to hold your position is if you believe there is a vast conspiracy against your position.

I don't have time to deal with delusional people.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 1:10pm.

Researched exclusively from your list of approved sources.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 11:13am.

Good to have all that information in one place. Thanks for providing that. I know you won't convince those experiencing acute religious psychosis but perhaps other more reasonable people will check it out the facts for themselves.

I have seen the evidence myself in a British Museum. It is hard to argue with 10 skulls (no they weren't fake) right in front of your nose.


Submitted by McDonoughDawg on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 9:21am.

What year to you think God created Adam in the Garden of Eden? Give me your best ball park guess.

PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 1:16pm.

You must remember I am a Pre-Adamic believer. That means the earth was created long before the First Day of Creation. And included dinosaurs.

No, before someone does it again. I do not believe there was a race of humans then. There was a company of flesh beings, which is far different from a race.

I would say, and it is a guess based on Biblical data, that the 6 Days, which include the creation of of Adam and Eve, were approximately 7,000 years ago. But could be upward to 10,000.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Submitted by McDonoughDawg on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 2:33pm.

That sure leaves a huge gap in things from your point of view. Seems this will go nowhere in discussion. Going to agree to disagree.

At least you don't think it was like the Flintstones. We do agree on that.

Dinosaurs have been gone for around 65 Million Years at the least. I think humans have been walking upright for around well over 200,000 years, probably MUCH longer than that.

PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 3:51pm.

I agree on the agree to disagree.

But rememeber, the dating of humanity and dinos keeps getting later and later in history as better dating techniques are developed.

And it is the THEORY of Evolution. Just supporting a theory does not make it real.

I love real science. Not the proposition papers many create with their interpretation of evidence.

Here is an interesting one for you to think about.

Egyptologists say the Great Pyramid is the youngest pyramid and theorize the others were step by step developments leading to it.

BUT, examination by other scientists reveals it is the OLDEST pyramid. Astronomy shows the spirit paths pointing to the stars of the king and Queen are closer to 10,000 years old than the very recent date accepted by Egyptologists.

Further, the Sphinx has been proven to have been damaged by water, not wind, as previously endorsed by Egyptologists.

Again, that area of the world ceased to be wet closer to 10,000 years ago.

All of the other pyramids were built in the current Dry Age.

Now, look at this Biblically. Prior to the Flood there was one land mass per Genesis. And it was all watered.

Then was the Flood and after, during the time of Peleg, the one land mass was divided (continental drift at a faster rate than scientists claim).

That changed the climate of Egypt from wet to dry.

Think about that implications this has for the accuracy of these Humanistic scientists. That the Pre-Flood people accomplished many things and those that came after copied them.

And no, the scientists were not Christians who contradicted they Egyptologists.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 1:26pm.

This is so funny. The creationists can't even keep the story straight between them. What happened to dinosaur footprints next to human foot prints. What about the "biblical evidence" for dinosaurs on the ark? Are you saying that the 6000 to 10000 year old earth model is wrong?

Okay so how many different Creationism schisms are there. Do you fight about the evidence with them to? Maybe you should because CRI is attacking the position you just put forth.

Isn't it funny that even creationism positions seem to evolve over time.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 4:11pm.

This is so funny. The creationists can't even keep the story straight between them. What happened to dinosaur footprints next to human foot prints. What about the "biblical evidence" for dinosaurs on the ark? Are you saying that the 6000 to 10000 year old earth model is wrong?

The footprint issues were proven to be a form of dino print that weathered to look like a human print.

There is no Biblical evidence for dinos coexisting with Man. Read the topic on CTZ on Pre-Adamic and you will find evidence.

Unfortunately, many denominations have never shed all the erroneous doctrines inherented from when Catholicism was 'Christianity' by force of arms.

As science has those who have beliefs set in concrete, in spit of evidence, so does Christianity on the Christian issues.

I repeat, read the Pre-Adamic topic. It gives verse and linquistics on the issues.

Okay so how many different Creationism schisms are there. Do you fight about the evidence with them to? Maybe you should because CRI is attacking the position you just put forth.

There is Old Earth with each of the 6 Days being an Age, not a sunrise and sunset day as demanded by verse.

There is Old Earth with Theistic Evolution. Totally unsupportable in the Bible.

There is Old Earth with a number of Pre-Adamic views. Read the CTZ topic.

There is Young Earth which places Gen 1:1-2 within the First Day, in complete violation of the Hebrew. So the earth is no older than 10,000 years.

Isn't it funny that even creationism positions seem to evolve over time.

Actually, the Theistic Evolution is the by far newest view. The rest have been around for a very long time. As in thousands of years.

That is why it is important to analyse the issues linquistically and literally. Problem is so many refuse to read literally because it does not suite their desired thinking.

None of this gives you a legitimate excuse to claim to be Christian and then dismiss the Bible. The errors are in the forced intepretations, not the Bible.

It is obvious from all you have said a literal Bible has no place in your thinking.

Science is great tool for testing Biblical claims. But when one refuses to even consider the Biblical claims they are in no postion to declare the Bible a lie. Nor are they when the try to force the Bible to fit Humanistic theories.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 10:13am.

If you want to see this as your own little personal victory, so be it. I have spent years arguing from your perspective. I am done arguing, I am done making excuses for a 6000 to 10000 year old earth.

You are right, I won't debate you on your website. I did check it out and decided pretty quickly that the people there are too deep in to think in a straight line.

I am sure that sounds ridiculous to you. Don't forget that I have been there. I was fighting along side you for years. I know all your arguments (trust me on this one, I really do) It also know that it is impossible to convince you people of most anything.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 12:59pm.

Just on the Bible issue alone you would get ripped to shreds.

No one can legitimately claim to be a Chrisitan while rejecting and dismissing what the Bible says.

After numerous challenges on the Scientist rejecting there being a God, it is telling you are shopping cart you beliefs and statements.

Further, you also did not reply to the question of Christ being God in the flesh. Very, very telling.

You are also too blinded to understand NO scientist of the ilk you want to site are going to seek any explanations to life origins other than evolution. It is not even a possiblity to consider to them.

Get it? Anyone who rejects God has not other place to go but evolution. Even when they cannot answer the question of the Ulitimate Beginning.

And will not even venture a statement, which is very very telling.

So, they violate science by immediate excluding a possibility. Thus there research is tainted immediately.

And is shown as such when there are no transitional life forms. And they have to jump to totally amazing irresponsible theories such as Puncuated Equilibrium to try to get around that fact.

Bye. Of course you will not discuss it in FULL. Your mind is closed.

As you said, no point in continuing. Later on something else maybe.

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 4:58pm.

Just on the Bible issue alone you would get ripped to shreds.
Translation: I’m getting my keister kicked discussing physical science here, I better change the topic to religion ASAP.
No one can legitimately claim to be a Chrisitan while rejecting and dismissing what the Bible says.
Translation: My view of Christianity is the ONLY valid view of Christianity. I’m a better Christian than you are, even if I can’t spell the word “Christian”.
After numerous challenges on the Scientist rejecting there being a God, it is telling you are shopping cart you beliefs and statements.
Translation: MY mind isn’t clouded by uncertainty or facts. All science is known. Just read your Bible.
Further, you also did not reply to the question of Christ being God in the flesh. Very, very telling.
Translation: Christ-is-God-in-the-flesh is an integral part of the evolution debate. Who said so? Me!
You are also too blinded to understand NO scientist of the ilk you want to site are going to seek any explanations to life origins other than evolution. It is not even a possiblity to consider to them.
Translation: Darned science and their reliance on empirical data!
Get it? Anyone who rejects God has not other place to go but evolution. Even when they cannot answer the question of the Ulitimate Beginning.
Translation: No Evolution, Know God. Know Evolution, No God. Science must fit on a bumper sticker. God says so.
And will not even venture a statement, which is very very telling.
Translation: I wanna discuss RELIGION, DANGIT!
So, they violate science by immediate excluding a possibility. Thus there research is tainted immediately.
Translation: The Bible should be the core of all scientific research. End of Discussion.
And is shown as such when there are no transitional life forms. And they have to jump to totally amazing irresponsible theories such as Puncuated Equilibrium to try to get around that fact.
Translation: I gotta hope no one will remember that Basmati proved me wrong about transitional fossils the other day. I’ll just keep repeating something (“no transitional fossils”) as a mantra and these weak minded sheep will eventually buy it. An excellent public speaking tip I picked up reading Mein Kampf
Bye. Of course you will not discuss it in FULL. Your mind is closed.
Translation: “in FULL” of course being defined as discarding scientific research that does not support my preconceived opinions.
As you said, no point in continuing. Later on something else maybe.
Translation: My kind has to get the last word in. Always. We are Legion.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 8:31pm.

Great job man.

Thanks for the translation.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 06/15/2006 - 5:15pm.

That was an awful rebutal. But I do have one question. Let's say your right about PTC Guy. Do you think he would have stole the Mein Kampf idea from the DNC? Seems they have perfected that method over the years.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 4:52pm.

Okay, that is a sack of lies about the lack of evidence for evolution. I used to agree with that, only because my faith demanded it, not because I disputed the research. What a liar I was to myself.

Now I realize that the evidence for evolution (darwinian or otherwise) is overwhelming and my faith will have to adjust. Sorry, the missing link DOES exist. I decided that it was less Christian to believe a lie (no good evidence for evolution) than to be honest with myself.

Evolution happens everyday. Ever heard of bird flu or the aids virus? I'm not even going to go there with you. It is hard to argue with someone who has bought into a lie and is in denial of the truth.

You obviously are not aware of the current environmental degradation. I didn't believe in this either until the game department where I lived posted warnings about eating fish out of the river in front of my house. Beautiful Shenandoah.. polluted to the point you can't eat out of it. I started looking around and found out that the pollution is everywhere, not just in my river. ( I live in PTC but have a cabin up there ) Just because you can't see it or smell it doesn't mean it won't hurt you.

Fossil fuel is clean? Natural gas is clean but not the other fossil fuels.

Mining coal rapes the environment. Trees grow back, mountaintop removal for coal extraction doesn't correct itself. Burning and mining coal releases mercury. Have you actually seen pictures of what is happening in VA, WV, PA, OH? Here is a link to some pictures:
http://www.ohvec.org/galleries/mountaintop_removal/index.html

Sorry, wood burned cleanly (not in a bon fire) is much cleaner than coal. Also when trees regrow, they take CO2 out of the atmosphere, a close looped system.

Sure some people have an agenda, some "elite" have an agenda, you seem to have an agenda (perhaps subconciously) I certainly have an agenda, I want to know more of the truth. I am tired of being lied to. Do you have any peer reviewed scientific journals to back up your statements? I do, lots.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 5:21pm.

Okay, that is a sack of lies about the lack of evidence for evolution. I used to agree with that, only because my faith demanded it, not because I disputed the research. What a liar I was to myself.

The old lies accusation. How predictable.

Now I realize that the evidence for evolution (darwinian or otherwise) is overwhelming and my faith will have to adjust. Sorry, the missing link DOES exist. I decided that it was less Christian to believe a lie (no good evidence for evolution) than to be honest with myself.

A big claim that if true would render the THEORY of Evolution the LAW of Evolution.

No. There are no missing links.

Name ONE fossil and ONE living.

Evolution happens everyday. Ever heard of bird flu or the aids virus? I'm not even going to go there with you. It is hard to argue with someone who has bought into a lie and is in denial of the truth.

That is not evolution. It is adaption.

At least learn the terms before you try to debate.

You obviously are not aware of the current environmental degradation. I didn't believe in this either until the game department where I lived posted warnings about eating fish out of the river in front of my house. Beautiful Shenandoah.. polluted to the point you can't eat out of it. I started looking around and found out that the pollution is everywhere, not just in my river. ( I live in PTC but have a cabin up there ) Just because you can't see it or smell it doesn't mean it won't hurt you.

I never said there were not issues.

But now you are trying to equate chemical and other dumping to using fossil fuels.

I can list issues caused by tachonite mining and other issues. But those are NOT fossil fuel issues.

Fossil fuel is clean? Natural gas is clean but not the other fossil fuels.

Now, of course, the misquoting begins. I never said clean.

Get it right before you quote.

I said cleaner than wood burning.

Mining coal rapes the environment. Trees grow back, mountaintop removal for coal extraction doesn't correct itself.

Actually it does over time. It weathers, soil accumulates and plants regrow.

But it does take time.

Burning and mining coal releases mercury. Have you actually seen pictures of what is happening in VA, WV, PA, OH? Here is a link to some pictures:
http://www.ohvec.org/galleries/mountaintop_removal/index.html

I am fully aware of coal mining.

I never said I liked it.

But, to stop using it one must have an alternative. As will all fuels.

Sorry, wood burned cleanly (not in a bon fire) is much cleaner than coal. Also when trees regrow, they take CO2 out of the atmosphere, a close looped system.

Totally ill thought out.

Hardwoods for lumber and such now mainly come from overseas and South America. They take so long to grow they are actually protected from cutting in many states.

Further, wood does not burn cleanly. It is a long standing fact many lung conditions are found in those heating via wood.

If you are heating with wood you better do some research.

Even further, hardwoods are the desired wood to burn, because you have to use far less than when burning softer woods.

Bottom line is that wood cannot be regrown fast enough to replace it just for lumber. No way could it be regrown to keep up with if used as a primary source of heating.

Sure some people have an agenda, some "elite" have an agenda, you seem to have an agenda (perhaps subconciously) I certainly have an agenda, I want to know more of the truth. I am tired of being lied to. Do you have any peer reviewed scientific journals to back up your statements? I do, lots.

Sigh. Broaden your journal sources. You will find collision and oppostion.

Consider this. One PHD, wish I could remember his name, was constantly published UNTIL he published findings that went against evolution.

Was it debated? Were there follow up articles? No. They fired him and banned him from publishing again.

It is a known fact if you let any Christian leanings out you will get blocked from getting an advanced degree, even if your field has nothing to do with creation/evolution.

Since you have it all figured out tell me how the Universe Ultimately began? There are only three options.

1. Always existed. But this violated science. They know matter, eneragy and such have life spans. And the very idea violates the Law of Causuality.

2. Appeared out of nothing. Again, violates science.

3. Was created by something. Which either violated science by being created by something that always existed or just pushes the question back a step, without negating it.

Tell me how it all came to be in the Ultimate Beginning.
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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 5:43pm.

Okay, one fossil, one living thing...

Well in the last 10 years there have been I believe 4 missing links in the human chain filled in. I have researched every one of them. If you insist on me looking them up and sending you the info I can.

Honestly, I am not an expert (yet) on wood burning so although I still think I am right from the little I have read, I will not debate that with you because I don't know enough to really speak with confidence. I do know that there are new wood burning technologies (such as catalyst burners) which have cleaned wood substantially.

I thought I was aware of coal mining as well until I discovered mountaintop removal. It differs radically from other methods. If you are aware of coal mining you should be able to explain how each of the three common methods of removal contribute to stream pollution with heavy metals.

I know plenty of evangelical Christians with PHDs. In VA anyway. PHDs seem to be more rare in GA. Young and old PHDs. Maybe the person you are mentioning needed an excuse for his poor performance.

So how is it that you have come to think I am an atheist? Do you think everyone who believes in evolution is an atheist? Is the world that black and white? I am a Christian actually. So I would have to pick option 3 obviously.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:12pm.

Okay, one fossil, one living thing...

Well in the last 10 years there have been I believe 4 missing links in the human chain filled in. I have researched every one of them. If you insist on me looking them up and sending you the info I can.

Hang on, now. You said, before, there were absolute known links. Not maybes.

Hmmm. You are obviously referring to the Lucy Family.

Sorry, but they have already gone out the window. Gone the way of Piltdown and Nebraska Man.

Honestly, I am not an expert (yet) on wood burning so although I still think I am right from the little I have read, I will not debate that with you because I don't know enough to really speak with confidence. I do know that there are new wood burning technologies (such as catalyst burners) which have cleaned wood substantially.

Yes, they are getting better. But it still is not pure clean.

I thought I was aware of coal mining as well until I discovered mountaintop removal. It differs radically from other methods. If you are aware of coal mining you should be able to explain how each of the three common methods of removal contribute to stream pollution with heavy metals.

My family came from coal mining territory in Kentucky. A ton of beheaded mountains in that area.

I never said it was clean mining. And will not.

But neither is strip mining, gravel pits, granite and marble cutting or any of the rest.

What you are missing is Man needs things. And if you tried to stop all activities that Man needs, Man would die.

I know plenty of evangelical Christians with PHDs. In VA anyway. PHDs seem to be more rare in GA. Young and old PHDs. Maybe the person you are mentioning needed an excuse for his poor performance.

No. He was a prolific writer and getting published until that ONE article.

It is common to happen. You need to research that fact. It is interesting the politics within the scientific community.

It is long, but you will see the censorship illustrated HERE.

So how is it that you have come to think I am an atheist?

Because of your strong rejection of Creationism because it is 'faith' based.

Even a Theistic Evolutionist knows their belief is faith based.

Atheistic Evolutionists are the only ones who pretend they are not faith based.

Do you think everyone who believes in evolution is an atheist?

Nope.

Is the world that black and white? I am a Christian actually. So I would have to pick option 3 obviously.

Hmmm. And yet you put down faith based and here declared faith based.

The confusion is coming from you, not me.

Also, as a Christian what is your source of believing in evoltion? Sure not the Bible.

The Bible totally rejects it.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:29pm.

I didn't say maybes, I said absolute links. If you have new information, please send it. "Gone out the window?" Must be some new research, please point me to it.

I still think wood is cleaner than coal. Until I research it more, I will let that one rest.

Man needs things, sure. Here in the US, we "need" all too many things. For example, we (5% of the world population) use 25% of the oil. I don't think we will die if we use less. Every (and I do mean every) other country seems to be doing fine with less.

Well let me know when you can provide me with the name of this mysterious PHD. I'd like to know more.

That is funny that I would reject creationism when I believe in it. I believe that God has or may have a constant hand in creation. I also am willing to admin that there are many things I don't know, especially when we get into the metaphysical (is that the right word) realm. That doesn't mean I don't believe, it just means, I don't have absolute confidence that I (or anyone) can know how the interface between the creator and creation works.

I wish Christians would be more willing to say "I don't know" occasionally instead of throwing away the science and pretending to know everything about how the world works. I don't have to remind you that many Christians didn't believe that man actually landed on the moon in the 60s. Do you believe that man landed on the moon?

You are right, if not taking a firm stance either way means I am confused then okay, call me confused. I will never be intellectually dishonest. Until I see good evidence against evolution, I will embrace the truth as I see it.

That this is even an issue is funny to me. Outside of the western world, it would not be such a big deal. Only westerners have to try to make everything add up. Why can't I believe in creation and evolution? I think they work well together.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 5:36pm.

HERE is a site dealing with those with a Ph.D. in engineering, mathematics, computer science, biology, chemistry, or one of the other natural sciences.

Meaning those who hold degrees relevent to this issue. Not just any degree.

HERE is a list of such scientists who have been willing to express their disagreement with evolution openly.

Are these dismissable scienists? Or do they demonstrate this is far from a settled issue even within the scientific community?

Other sites have other scientists who also disagree. And they are NOT all Christians.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:02pm.

Well thats funny, an aweful lot of those people are involved with Campus Crusade. Isn't that a funny coincidence. Well, you were right, they aren't ALL Christians, only most of them.

Must be pretty desperate to put Computer Science PHDs and Mechanical Engineering PHDs on there.

Wow.. I know some of the people on this list. Isn't the Christian community a small place.

This is deceitful. Out of all the scientists in the world, you found maybe 100 who have issues with "Darwinian" evolution. (As if all evolution were Darwinian) A drop in the proverbial bucket.

What a coincidence, they are all teachers.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:38pm.

Well thats funny, an aweful lot of those people are involved with Campus Crusade. Isn't that a funny coincidence.

And that negates their degrees exactly how?

Amazing, you claim to be Christian but attack Christians while defending Atheists on this issue. Hmmmmm.

Well, you were right, they aren't ALL Christians, only most of them.

And you know that exactly how with such a brief reading?

Must be pretty desperate to put Computer Science PHDs and Mechanical Engineering PHDs on there.

No, it is very logical. BOTH of those sciences deal with complex systems. Modeling and analysis.

You are desperate to disqualify all opposition as incompetent. Why?

Wow.. I know some of the people on this list. Isn't the Christian community a small place.

And that is relevant the issue... how?

This is deceitful. Out of all the scientists in the world, you found maybe 100 who have issues with "Darwinian" evolution. (As if all evolution were Darwinian) A drop in the proverbial bucket.

Either you didn't read the material or you are lying.

There are over 500 names on that list. Nor does it include every scientist who disagrees with evolution.

Ad homenim attacks are the sign or a desparate argument to discredit facts. And that is all you are doing here as concerns their credibility.

What a coincidence, they are all teachers.

And what a coincidence many such teachers are also researchers or come from the research field. More attempts at discediting.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:52pm.

I'm not desperate to prove or disprove anything. I have nothing to lose other than my time. You on the other hand have much to lose as your world view hangs in the balance.

How do I know they are predominantly Christians? A combination of name recognition and random lookups on google. If I see a "testimony" page, I assume they must be Christians. A random sample came back with a high percentage publically professing their faith.

Sorry as a thinker, I can't throw away a coorelation between their worldview and their science position, especially because I know some of the people on the list and I know how they think. Heck I am related to a couple of them.

If you want to argue facts then don't send me a list of people who subscribe to an opinion. Lets talk facts.

No matter what, I can put together a list of more prominent scientists 1000 times (maybe 10000 times) larger than yours. Easy.

You are missing the point of scale. I don't care if there are 100,000 detractors, because if there are, there are 100,000,000 supporters. Its the ratio that matters not the number. How does this not make sence?


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 6:54pm.

So, numbers make right?

The Christ was wrong, correct?

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 7:07pm.

The teachings of Christ don't contradict evolution. Infact, only conservative evangelical protestants seem to be stuck on this idea.

The reason I like the orthodox church so much is that they don't try to fight science. They have no problem (generally speaking) with the evolution. It's not a big deal.


PTC Guy's picture
Submitted by PTC Guy on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 8:16pm.

I was wondering when you would admit you are not in a Bible following a believing church.

Yep. Your justification does not come from the Bible. It comes from edicts, law, traditions and so on from men.

Genesis, among other books, most assuredly rejects evolution.

You really have never studied the Bible in depth, have you? You just accept the doctrines and dictates from your church's hierarchy without question because you want to believe, by faith, in evolution.

It is a big deal when one claims to be Christian but rejects what the Bible teaches.

Go the link in my profile. Start a topic on evolution there and say the Bible does not reject evolution.

You will be shown Christ never embraced evoltion.

Hmmm. You still did not answer me on the majority of scientists rejecting God making that a fact as well.

But, you are not. So, it is a waste of time to continue with you, since you have proven my points.

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.


kohesion's picture
Submitted by kohesion on Wed, 06/14/2006 - 9:35pm.

The orthodox church is not a bible believing church?

Well, there you go folks. I can't argue with this level of ignorance.

Actually, I go to a presbyterian church, infact, I may even go to your church on occasion (I help out at a few churches in the area)

I merely like the Orthodox church and may start attending one since I they seem to be able to think in a straight line for the most part.

Sorry, I have studied the bible in depth for my entire life. I would wager that I know more about the bible than you. I have memorized portions of it (entire chapters). In fact, I bet I own 10 times as many theology books as you (do you own any at all?)You see, I read the bible the way it was intended which is not as a science book.

Not everyone interprets the bible exactly the same way you do. Maybe you should get around to other denominations occasionally. Not all Christians are baptist. Jesus certainly wasn't.


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