You'll get no argument from me. Still, I see it as a political ploy to regain 'capital' lost over the past year.

Would you agree that it is somewhat of a deja-vu from 1977 and the appointment of Clifford Alexander where an over correction was made to remedy previous wrongs?

One thing I notice is no one has polled the troops, what we believe don't mean diddly, it's what the troops think that should be the driving force in this discussion.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

@

"no one has polled the troops"

Actually brother, under the current policy we cannot ask if the troops have been polled or not .

Hack

That don't make it right, they should have a say.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

A bro of mine was in a big meeting, and a guy stood up and actually said this,

"I'd like to take a poll real quick."

It took him a minute to figure out why the room of guys erupted in laughter.

Now do you get my don't ask don't tell humor? For the record, I have NEVER been polled.

Hack

Is that must be AF humor. Went right over my head.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

another way to spell "poll".

I got it, well, I mean I understood it after he pointed it out. Like I said, AF humor.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Humor me...

Your first question needs no response hence the title of the current policy. This was adopted and promoted by the Arkansas Playboy when he realized that he'd struck a political landmine.

Your second can only be answered by taking an inventory of what is contained in the hearts/minds of those in uniform. That content, I would point out, has been placed there by lifetimes of cultural development. To the majority of those serving this 'change' is a direct affront to that culture from which they came.

Your third deals with the chain of command, each of the Joint Chiefs serve at the pleasure of the President for periods of three years and none have command authority over troops in the field. These uniformed members, with few exceptions, fall under the command of the CINC's who report directly to the SECDEF. If this were not a game, the order simply would have been issued.

Your point of honesty is indeed valid, but I point out to you that the culture in Europe and the remainder of the countries of the NATO Alliance is much different than in the USA. My question back to you would be:

Are you willing to risk your children's pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to reach your goal?

And I'm very glad for that. My sideline observation is this won't change anyone's life, liberty, or pursuit of anything. The reality is these folks are already serving. Unacceptable behavior will continue to be punished, but as for who these folks are at their cores; they are already serving. I dare say most folks in the service can think of a few they know already. I don't think anyone hit with a sniper's bullet, or apprehended in a raid, or shot down/bombed by an aircraft, wondered if their adversary was gay or straight. I don't have very strong feelings on this one. If the policy stays? Fine. If it changes? Good for those who can stop lying about who they are. But one thing I know for a FACT is they are already wearing the uniform and serving their country.

Cheers,

Hack

WHY NOW?

That's what makes it political..

Obama is playing a little slight of hand.. Here look over here at this hand while I hide the real issue over there...

This is not a HOT topic... So the question beds to be asked why screw around with the Military right now. Obama doesn't have the most sterlin reputation with us over the Military.. So why now?

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them. ~~Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Corborundum"

it was a campaign promise to secure votes from the gay rights crowd---and now it's payback time, just like it was for the Unions.

We need every single American capable of serving right now. The area of linguists is one of the most needed and most affected fields with respect to service of gay Americans. So why NOT now? When should we bring it up? We've been putting this off for 17 years. And let me re state that gay and lesbian Americans are already serving. And military folks are intuitive enough to know that these people they see day in and day out are gay.

I like the argument that straight troops are going to leave the military in droves if we let gay and lesbian Americans stop lying about who they are.

WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GO? The airline industry? No gays there, right? Retail sales? Beauty school? Tell me where they will go to run from gay and lesbian Americans. I can see it now: "There is no way I will ever fly another F-16 flight now that I know there is a gay translator in the intel shop!"

I just don't see that happening.

Cheers mate!

Hack

I honestly don't have a dog in this fight.. But with that said.. I don't hear anything from Commanders in the field saying their battle readiness is hampered because Gays can't openly be Gay???

I mean what does it mean to be openly Gay? Are we talking about the guys who are ready to burst into flames or just walking around with a big red "G" on their shirts..

I mean the first group probably would not be in the Military anyway and the 2nd group probably could not care less..

Unless the troops readiness is being hampered by Gays stuck in a closet then what is the issue besides just a political sleight of hand??

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them. ~~Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Corborundum"

According to the carbonunit significant events calculator, this will be a non-issue in very short order.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

Unit cohesion is critical in the military.

I suggest that if gays are allowed to serve openly that servicemen and women who are homophobic and think they cannot serve their country with gays in their units be given an opportunity (a six month window for example) to resign with an honorable discharge.

Then, by your stance readiness is not a consideration-or could it be that all these openly gays will fill the void left as the 'experience' departs.

Just a wee bit hasty, are we not?

Readiness. And apart from being skilled at using skewed logic, I suspect Lion has not had much (if any) military experience. My take is that Lion is only interested in Social Engineering, not military readiness.

I think you underestimate our servicemen and women.

Our servicemen have adapted to African-Americans and women in the military. I think the overwhelmingly majority would easily accept gays also.

And not that it is relevant to have an opinion on these things. I wore the uniform of our country for eight years. None of those years was in combat so I do not presume to have made the sacrifices of those who have.

not only with the military but with society as a whole. But you have the right to your opinion. And thanks for your service.

...who is out of touch with society:

"Americans are six percentage points more likely than they were four years ago to favor allowing openly gay men and lesbian women to serve in the military..."

Of course the South continues to lag behind this national trend, holding on to crass, homophobic stereotypes just as they did during the Civil Rights era when those "uppity" blacks were demanding equal rights.

GALLUP

Gallup Footnote: "The only exception to the trend in favor of openly gay service members is seen among those with a high school education or less..."

Wow, what shocker. *insert sarcasm*

I remember when I was in jump school, the barracks had a latrine with 2 troughs and 8 stools oriented in two rows of 4 about 30 inches apart all around. Absolutely no partitions. Very close and personal. So my mind wonders as to why we have separate men and women restrooms? If it is not for sexual purposes, then I guess these arrangements would be okay regardless of orientation. I am not hard core on this one way or the other, but to think that this comes without serious accomodations is to think in error.

Hey, Wedge. I was starting to wonder where you were.

I don't lean too far on one side of this either, but using your latrine story, would you rather know the guy next to you is gay? or would you rather be blissfully ignorant?

and I still am. In the light infantry and in the rangers you got yourself in very nonmodest moments. whether it was 10 people in a large shower room with multiple showerheads. I was experiencing that latrine situation for three weeks. I would rather not know what the guy next to me is thinking. It is easier to assume that everyone is viewing the situation in as unlicentious way as possible.
To me it begs the question of the multisex bathroom. If a woman and a man sitting side by side in unpartitioned stools gives you no pause, then the gay situation would be equally easy for you to deal with. If you have trouble with the situation described, then why wouldn't you have trouble with the latrine example above?

It was like that in ALL units! And then you never thought about the sexual orientation of your next-stool/shower buddy--you knew! And besides you were usually asking each other "Just why in the hell did we eat that Mexican food last night? Females weren't in play, except for "downtown". I still don't think Sergeants should smell good!

you were gonna say that the end product from both was the same!

That is very funny. It fits as well, and even better

Great source you've got--telephone interviews that don't reveal level of Education of interviewees but draws a negative conclusion about the opinion of Southerners with HS or less education. Well, here's a flash for you: I'm in the College educated, over 70 white male group whose culture and life experiences (including 21 yrs of Active Duty) tell me it's not a good idea. If you know what the rules are and can't abide by them, don't join. The foxhole is no place for "amor du jour"! The comittment Soldiers have to each other must not be driven by sexual attraction but by the desire to be successful in the mision and win whatever battle in which you are engaged.

You're over 70?!! Let me just say that you don't look it. It's funny, the older you get - the older your idea of old becomes.

"The most beautiful things in life cannot be seen or even touched, they must be felt with the heart." - Helen Keller

for the kind words. And BTW you don't look like you NEEDED to lose those 5 Pounds!

"The commitment Soldiers have to each other must not be driven by sexual attraction..."

That is one of the more ignorant statements I've heard regarding the DADT argument. A soldier's commitment to his/her fellow soldiers does not come from sexual desire...come on Gym. It's this kind of paranoia and ignorance that keeps gays in the closet in the first place and it's that same ignorance that kept women and blacks from voting and having equal rights.

An honest question: How many gay friends or family members do you have? Any? If you do, are you afraid to be in the same room with them, alone? Afraid they might hit on you?

If Gays do not like the policy they do not have to sign up.. Simple.

It’s like if you don’t like to run should we stop running in the Military?

Let’s say you have an issue with fatigues.. Should they be optional?

You don’t like Olive Green… Pick a color?

Gays serve everyday.. Brilliantly I might add… I don’t see an issue here..

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them. ~~Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Corborundum"

First, you seriously misquoted my post, inserting your own words to suit your persuasion. And the answer to your question is: ZERO--which should come as no surprise to you. You clearly have no understanding of the military ethos and therefore, zero credibility in my view when discussing this issue. Accordingly, this will be my last post in response to anything you write regarding homosexuals in the military.

"You clearly have no understanding of the military ethos..."

And you clearly have no understanding about gays and their community, reinforced by the fact that you haven't been exposed to too many homosexuals during your lifetime.

Gays aren't out to get you, Gym, or grab your buttocks or try to convert you to gay-ness...chill out!

Yesterday a man told me he loved five guys, but it turned out he was talking about the burger joint

Now I have no stats to prove this, but I think if you explore it , you will most in the military have a high school or less education. As far as Georgia goes, I think you'll find more riots or demonstrations over segregation in Boston then you did here. Of course that doesn't fit your stereotype, I know. I do feel bad that you have to live in a place you so desperately seem to hate.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

I don't hate it here! I've settled in quite nicely, really, and have found a wonderful group of atheists and humanists within our community...we are plotting the takeover of Fayette County...you cannot resist us...bwwwaahahahahahahahaha!

Got room for an agnostic with attitude? I'm not sure what a humanist is.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

We've got some agnostics in the group too (and I love your attitude). If you're really serious, email me about upcoming meetings...

Just kidding, not about the agnostic with attitude, but, I'm not a joiner. Groucho said I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member, and, I resemble that remark. But, thanks anyway.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

No problemo...I wasn't a joiner either, until I moved to PTC...now I find "safety in numbers" in this sea of religiosity, awash in fish emblems on every other car...haha. Email me if you ever want to meet us heathens for margaritas!

"I do feel bad that you have to live in a place you so desperately seem to hate."

Not me buddy. Just knowing she is miserable here makes me laugh. She'd bitch wherever she lived, about something.

Shhhhh though, I guess she doesn't know McDonalds has franchises in lots of "progressive" states. Her french-fry cooking skills are highly portable and in demand up north.

On a side note: I'm glad you are feeling better!

...and you better check your Big Mac before you chow down next time

I don't patronize McDonalds, just because I know you work there. Besides, why would you ever eat a Big Mac with a Five Guys Burgers franchise in the area????

And a Wendy's Baconator is light years ahead of the McGut bombs as well. Just wish we had a BK closer.

Hack

I hadn't met you I'd never eat another Big Mac again.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

When you were sick a couple of weeks ago, was it a stomach virus? I'm recovering from one myself. Yesterday I thought I had been possessed by demons and spent the day praying to the porcelain god! Good news is that I lost 5 pounds yesterday!

"The most beautiful things in life cannot be seen or even touched, they must be felt with the heart." - Helen Keller

No, mine was a respiratory type thingy. Tim and Jean missed you last night. Hope your doing better.

I yam what I yam....Popeye