Dems point fingers over Mass. Senate race

“White House, Coakley staff trade barbs, blame for campaign”

And don’t forget to read “How the Union deal went south”

House may be considering passing unamended Senate health care measure.

“Washington (CNN) -- A top House Democrat said Tuesday that the Senate health care bill is "better than nothing," an indication that the House of Representatives is considering passing the more conservative Senate measure with no alterations.”

“The House Democratic leadership may resort to that course of action if Massachusetts Republican state Sen. Scott Brown wins Tuesday's race to fill the vacancy created by the death of Democratic Sen. Ted Kennedy.”

I dont begrudge the Unions for what they have won here, but what about the middle class folks that are not Union members! There are a lot more of them than those in the Union. Additionally, what ever happened to the Government employees eating what they cook?

What about the small employer who has high premiums on his group due to health issues of his employees and their dependents?

This is out and out Class discrimination. First the Louisiana purchase, then the Husker handout. Now the rest of the middle class can grab their ankles.

why should Unions get special treatment? And what happened to the promise of "No new taxes on individuals who make up to $125,000 or couples who make up to $250.00? Another broken promise--I guess if it happens often enough enough, you get numb but it is a sad commentary indeed.

So they struck a deal with the President in which a 40 percent excise tax would not apply to policies covering workers in collective bargaining agreements, state and local workers and members of voluntary employee benefit associations through Dec. 31, 2017. Union membership represents only 14% of the work force.

They're not thinking of the middle class they're just screwing us. And that - with all do respect to the office - stupid louse of an idiot that was elected doesn't get the fact he just threw everyone not covered by a collective bargaining agreement under the bus. Thank you Barry Obama!!!!
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"And that - with all do respect to the office - stupid louse of an idiot that was elected doesn't get the fact he just threw everyone not covered by a collective bargaining agreement under the bus."

I vehemently disagree with that statement. Oh, not the "stupid louse of an idiot that was elected" part. That louse gets EXACTLY who it is that he is throwing under the bus. This is payback to the unions who helped elect him. In case you haven't figured this process out yet, it is now simply about two things. Power and legacy. This opportunity may never present itself again, so it may well be now or never. Slick Willie failed to get this BS passed and it is his legacy (well, besides Monica's stained dress and the meaning of "is"). At this point Obama would drive that bus you mentioned over anyone and any group who stands in the way of this "king maker" called health care reform.

It should read "with all due respect to the office". I'm so upset, I missed that in the original proofing. Grrrrrrrrr.
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Politicians
A busload of politicians were driving down a country road when, all of a sudden, the bus ran off the road and crashed into a tree in an old farmer's field.

The old farmer, after seeing what happened, went over to investigate. He then proceeded to dig a hole and bury the politicians.

A few days later, the local sheriff came out, saw the crashed bus and asked the old farmer where all the politicians had gone.

The old farmer said he had buried them.

The sheriff asked the old farmer, "Were they ALL dead?"

The old farmer replied, "Well, some of them said they weren't, but you know how them politicians lie."

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Repeat this to yourself and pass it along to others - all the way to November 2010 when sanity returns.

I assume you are not middle class. Who is the "us" who are being screwed?

We are not all businessmen and managers.

And the President is a liar. So much for transparency. A backroom deal was struck.
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...only you had raised at some point over the last 8 years. After all the lies told regarding Iraq, oil prices, the economy, etc., why didn't you raise the issue? Oh well, guess we are just becoming immune to political lies. All depends if it is my politician or yours. Too bad statesmanship is dead.

"Those who trade freedom for security deserve neither."

"Those who trade freedom for security deserve neither." is very telling and can be applied liberally. I am sure that you mean it as the central state invasiveness of the security apparatus-things like warrantless wiretaps and the like. But let's apply your moniker to the healthcare debate. Healthcare is the ultimate form of security. It is personal security. A universal healthcare right or even the currently constituted healthcare bill allows for the payer (the federal government) to eliminate whatever freedoms they desire. It would start small perhaps, mandating coverage for all and financial or personal libery penalties for noncompliance. Once money becomes tight, perhaps freedom of doctor choice would be eliminated. Or maybe dietary restrictions to go along with other restrictions such as tobacco or alcohol.

And what about people that trade for the security found in a labor union/collective bargaining agreement?

I believe that you are correct in your assertion. People that trade freedom for security definitely deserve neither.

BUT, unions are the cause of many businesses going over the border to mexico or out of the country for cheap labor. Those millions of jobs will never come back. So yes there was a time that unions really helped out but now they are killing jobs. So many people now would be glad to work for half. Its better than zero.

..unions are the cause of many businesses going over the border to mexico or out of the country for cheap labor

It is management that is moving the jobs out of the country, not unions. Management created the need for unions, unions did not create the need for management. So the unions cut a deal for the benefit of their members: duh, that is what they are supposed to do. Every current American worker has a lot of reasons to thank the past efforts of unions. That being said, this whole health care debate has become the very definition of pathetic, and Americans deserve better from their elected representatives. There are plenty of reasons to have a health system that is not headed towards a steep path that eventually few will have the traction to tread. There are plenty of resources available to fund it, the most obvious being stopping the waste in the current health system and curtailing the bloated defense budget. United we will stand, divided we will fall.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

I agree that in most parts of the country, a successful union drive in a manufacturing facility is the sign of an noncommunicative management. I disagree that the loss of jobs overseas is a pure management issue. Unions in manufacturing have outpriced their skill level. We can blame, in addition to management, also consumers and shareholders. The consumers invariably push for commodity pricing for most goods and seek the lowest price. Throw in the mutual fund managers who push for the highest returns from their investments and their zeal to gain the highest ebitda from the companies. It is an unholy alliance that is eroding our manufacturing base.

Now come on there Carbon, a UAW mechanic in a brake facility in Romulus Michigan could easily clear $120,000 a year with built in overtime and a slow down on work pace. The Unions also made it very hard for the car companies to cut costs to regain competitiveness. They killed the golden calf

I am not equating all unions with angles in heaven and I agree that they have caused their share of problems. American car companies had it to lose and they did, and inept management tops the list of reasons why. Detroit was much more concerned about making money than making a good car. During the 70s and 80s they made nothing but rolling junk. I remember the first Honda Civics that were imported. Little bitty things, three cylinders, closer to a motorcycle than a car. Now, they remind me of the little mammals that were running around when the big ole dinosaurs were in charge. Dinos could not adapt, the little mammals did, and the rest is history.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

Ha, the Rambler Nash did that first!!

Remember this song?

Jane1 does.....
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Do you mean the Nash Metropolitan? 1954-1962. And don't forget the Henry J.

had the tincan award....

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

Had an account in Virginia. They made rubber sheets for Goodyear.
Their Union went on strike.. vowing to "Shut them down".

These guys already made more than 75% of the average in the area, but it still wasn't enough.

The Companies owners tried everything they could but finally the Unions got their wish.. They shut them down.

I will never forget the look on the Union thugs face when a reporter asked him.. "Now What"?

The end result 425 hard working Virginians were out of a Job.. None of which EVER found a job making as much as they had.

Oh.. and the Union Thug well he went back to Chicago.

I don't have anything against the workers themselves.. They are for the most part hard working Americans. The Leadership however is something else. They are corrupt and no longer have the best interest of the workers at heart.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

Exempting unionized workers whether they be public or private and mandating taxation on the remaining private workforce just opens yet another means of challenging this bills constitutionality. Requiring 49 states to increase payments into Medicare while exempting Nebraska does the same. Any lawmaker voting for this vile piece of legislation is asking his constituency to bring tar, feathers, and a rail to Washington.

who's got the feathers and a rail?

Cy is absolutely correct.. 14% of Americans are in the Unions so that means the rest of us get the screw.. as in screwed.

This is more of the same old bribes and kickbacks..

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

S.Lindsey, what are you saying? You want to tar and feather the 14% of Americans that belong to a union?

In case you didn’t know, there are plenty of union members in the community. Pilots, Flight Attendants, Machinist, Postal Workers, Government Employees, and probably more that I don't know about. You can start with you neighbors?

By the way, I like your teapot picture better than your old picture with the democrat riding on your back. I did notice that your teapot didn’t have any steam coming from the spout. I guess it must be empty?

I think you are being obtuse for a reason? Maybe.. maybe not..

Did you just read my post or all the rest included? I think we want to run the Politicians out.. the Unions are just doing what they always do.. Hold out their hands for more.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

I find it most interesting how the POTUS supporters dance around and fail to acknowledge his failed campaign promises - aka lies.
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It is amazing how many Americans will willingly jam their heads in the sand exposing their butts.. while wondering why we are always screwed.

Thankfully America is sick and tired of the same old crap and is finally saying they have had enough.. Well welcome to my world..

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

S.Lindsey, you sent out the call for 'Tar and Feathers.’ I was just pointing out that many of your neighbors belong to unions and you could start your 'Tar and Feather' terror campaign locally.

Tell me, is your call for 'Tar and Feathers' your own idea or is it the official "Tea Party" position?

Obtuse, me? Actually I consider you our local master. The Svengali of Obtuse! (Svengali,... don't tell me that's what the S is for in S.Lindsey?)

By the way, your last post was the most polite response I ever received from you. I hope you start feeling better and get back to being your old self again very soon.

Please look above my "I'll bring the TAR" post at Mike King's post last line..

You just might see where my response comes from.. but when someone has an agenda I guess facts get lost in the translation..

But then again facts mean little to you anyway.. How was that for being my old self.. You get what you give..

Have a nice day..

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

Of course, you are correct regarding the agenda thing, but Gort may well realize that between the two of us, you are the nicer.

S.Lindsey, I know union bashing when I see it and I was observant enough to notice you didn’t answer my questions. As usual, your reply was as phony as the fake Latin in your tag line, "Illegitimus non Carborundum.”

But, I’m glad you are feeling better and you too, have a nice day. See you in the funny papers.

Maybe you can tell me why the unions deserve to be excluded from the taxes on the insurance, just what makes them so special that they are above the rest of the middle class, or any class for that matter.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

hutch866, I think it's because, in the current political environment, the union guys have better representation in Washington than the rest of us. Our senators have decided to sit on the sidelines for the sake of party unity, mug it up for the crowds, and recite the populist dogma. This is the safe bet to ensure their next election and increase their seniority. The more seniority they have the more pork they can bring back to their friends. If you got a gripe about not being on the receiving end, its not me you should be talking to.

The question was WHY do the unions DESERVE to be excluded from the insurance tax, not how it's come about. You're the one accusing people of union bashing, so please tell me why they deserve better treatment, not how it's come about.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

hutch866, we are talking about a subject in the political arena not the school yard. When the tables are turned, and as time passes they always do, the other side of the aisle won’t mind rewarding its supporters or sucker punching the opposition. It’s legal, ethical, but not always pleasant to the opposing party or their constituency. Deserve has nothing to do with it. I didn’t invent it and I don't defend it, that’s just the way it is.

So am I to believe you have no opinion of your own? You seem to dance around this subject, telling me how the politics are played out, fine forget I asked, obviously you have your talking points and that's all you bring to the table. Maybe you can send in a letter and they'll send you back something to say. BTW, you were defending it, when you came out with the union bashing comment. As far as you not inventing it, I can believe that, to invent it you would have to have an original thought, and it appears you haven't been able to find one yet.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

to trot out that "Fairness" mantra that they are so fond of chanting--or is this just not the right moment! For my part, it's blatant cronyism without any forethought about how many voters will be alienated. Huge rookie mistake.

I don't think Gort/Hack will ever answer that one for obvious reasons.
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Cyclist, as I see you call the President of the U.S. more names than an Al Qaeda operative (all due respect to the office [eyes rolling]), I have had a hard time differentiating you from mudcat, USarmybrat, or fred garvin. You've become one of those "I'm pissed cause I lost" bitter bloggers. That is absolutely fine. But let me address the question I was not asked.

As a member of ALPA, I am part of collective bargaining. My union is why I don't fear calling in sick; saying I can't fly this leg; saying "this doesn't make sense and I don't feel it is safe to do." Along with having no fear of being punished for doing what I, the company person who would die in the crash (as opposed to management),feel is right, I also have a small say in how I'm compensated. I could receive less cash and better hotels or crew meals. I could trade work rules for cash. I could receive less money but better health care.... and that is what we have done.

If you are not a Union member, I don't know by what process you traded cash to receive better health care.

One thing that is interesting to me is this: The federal budget is the federal budget. Taxes pay it. We go to war? Taxes pay the bill. We build a road, launch a shuttle, buy B-2s and F-22s? Taxes. Now, when the wealthiest Americans got a tax cut in this country while the Federal government doubled in size, you and your fellow republicans did not say a darned thing! Where was your bewilderment? How did you expect troops to have MRAPS and body armor? Where did you think the money would come from?

No problem with Rush Limbaugh getting a tax cut while we fought two wars, but fail to tax a union who surrendered pay for health care and here comes the presidential name calling.
Well, Cyclist, Hack is showing you guys the hand...talk to it. You stand shoulder to shoulder arguing CIGNA and ETNA and Bluecross and Blueshield's position with them.... I'm going to stand on the side of people who feel something in the way we administer healthcare needs to change.

By the way, the bill isn't signed yet. You're complaining about the taste of stew that's still in the crock pot.......

like a boxer and that's what the Demos are doing. Fending off criticism and disregarding campaign promises he made like no new taxes on the middle class and posting all bills for 72 hours before he signs and, and, and, and. You know, you can only bob and weave so much. I suspect the good people of Massachusetts finally seen through it.

Kevin, while I might across to a liberal as right wing nut, I'm really just right of center. I suspect that many in Massachusetts feel the same way I feel. I'm sorry you feel the way you do.

Anyways, sorry I didn't respond sooner but I was down in Fort Lauderdale and I hate blogging via a blackberry.
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Can someone in one breath call The Commander in Chief a"stupid louse of an idiot" and then in the next breath say "I'm really just right of center." Yes. And The Taj Mahal is a quaint little structure. You can call the Pres what ever you want of course. I'm not arguing that you can't or that it is even wrong to make up names and insults to toss at the PResident or the opposing side's politicians. But I love the populism which your side claims at the same time. The "just slightly right of center" facade. We're just regular old folks in the middle; heartland Americans. independent minds. This isn't partisan. This is a fight for the middle class!

REALLY now..... You are fighting for the middle class to continue to enjoy health care dictated by large pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies who MAKE MONEY BY NOT PAYING CLAIMS.

How much have your taxes gone up due to legislation our President has signed, Cyclist? Give us an idea of a percentage.... How much? If health care reform cut your medical expenses by $1500 a year and your plan was taxed $100 a year, would that be a good thing for you or a bad thing? If your net health care costs decreased due to healthcare reform, regardless of tax or fee structure, would that be GOOD for you or BAD for you?

You don't know what the end game will be, Cyclist. You are hopping mad because of something someone reported on in unfinished and very likely dying legislation. Amazing.

As for bills not being signed before being on line 72 hours: Well, if that hasn't happened, that's just a deal breaker. I mean, that is H U G E! It is so important, that I think I'll be forced to evaluate a potential impeachment. What a non-issue......

Hack

For Bush's last 2 or 3 years in office, when sniffles, Bas, and Main continuously hammered him, especially during the election season, I must have missed your situational outrage at the insults and names they
hurled at him and for that I truly apologize. In fact when Sniffles came out and called McCain a traitor to his country for succumbing to torture, I never saw a word about it from you.....go figure.

BTW, we missed you Saturday, poor old Carb had to defend the Dems all by himself, but he made a good showing.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

I didn't ask cyclist about what S.L. said. I addressed what he chose to blog. I don't hold you responsible for the words of another. I won't hold Cyclist responsible for the words of another. I do not believe that if someone does not counter the outrageous, they must agree with it. so when I start asking you why you didn't complain about Cyclist calling The President names, call me out. Otherwise do what I did. Call main or sniffles out for what they say.

You may notice in my post I say There is "nothing wrong" with calling the President names. Just don't pretend to be a centrist.

Wish I could have been at the coffee. It would have been a very, very long drive.

Hack

You said" have had a hard time differentiating you from mudcat, USarmybrat, or fred garvin. You've become one of those "I'm pissed cause I lost" bitter bloggers." Pardon my confusion.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

I'm pissed all right. But it ain't about losing, like it's some silly game! What Hack and many of the others here can not see (through their total blindness) is the fact that I, and many of the others here, are worried sick about this country and for our children's future. We have our eyes wide open and see the destruction going on. And, no, it didn't start with Obama. He has just managed to increase it many times over. I thank God for the people in the TeaParty groups--so glad they are waking up! Denigrate them, you libs, but you won't stop them!

I stopped taking you seriously when you called the decorated ARMY veteran, Colin Powell, an "S.O.B." for supporting Barack Obama. I'm not sure you are the one to judge whether one's eyes are open, closed, or gouged out all together.

Hack

No one is above criticism, Hack, even Colin Powell. I just looked at the fact that he WAS a professing Republican and when he decided to support BO, who is so far to the left of Powell, I could not see him doing so because of ideology. I saw him jumping on that train (wreak) and came to the conclusion that he had another reason for his decision. I think he wanted to support the first black to make it to the White House, no matter how different their views and ideology are from each other. I could be wrong. He could be opportunistic, with no firm beliefs in any ideology. I guess I could've just called him a RINO instead of SOB, but there really isn't much difference between the two. And, by the way, I am just DEVASTATED to read that you don't take me seriously! I think I need another cup of hot tea to soothe my hurt feelings! Now, which mug should I use? My Sarah Palin one or my Dittohead one? Hmmm...

Pardon my intruding in the conversation but I wanted to reinforce your argument that nobody is above criticism just because they served their country well. At the risk of being a namedropper, a friend of mine is Jim Warner, retired attorney who lives in Maryland. I got to know Jim when I was writing a book about Vietnam vets, not yet published. Jim's story in that book is moving, as he was a Marine jet pilot who was shot down and spent 5 1/2 years as a POW being very badly treated by the North Vietnamese.
In addition Jim served in the Raegan White House, and received the 1990 H.L. Mencken Award for an editorial in which he opposed the attempt to amend the Constitution to remove First Amendment protection for flag burners. Personally, I agree with him, but another well known vet whose story is in the book makes frequent speeches urging such an amendment. We don't all think the same.
Jim also is the author of The Triumph Of Hope Over Experience: The Campaign Finance Reform Act Of 2002 and The First Amendment, which appeared in the Winter 2003, George Mason University Civil Rights Law Journal. The irony is this article’s stiff opposition to McCain-sponsored legislation even though he and John McCain remain friends who once shared a POW prison cell. Jim says McCain's critics who say he took special treatment from their captors is dead wrong, that McCain refused all offers admirably, but he says he still tells McCain that campaign finance legislation was dead wrong, too. And now the Supreme Court agrees.
Just wanted to add fuel to your argument.

Terry Garlock

We are all busy people who have to pick and choose what to comment on and what to ignore. I am surprised that you choose to weigh in here and with this.

Now I argue opposite of USARMY brat constantly, but I love her none the less.

But honesty requires me to ask you and to ask her this:

Is calling someone an "SOB" a "criticism? If so, what should they do to work on fixing that? Have their mom stop being a B word?

My point with Army had nothing to do about critique. It had to do with a hate-filled remark. If you want to defend it with "exactly," that is your right. I just can't recognize that as a valid criticism though.

Hack

. . . but you should read carefully before you react. My comment was prefaced with ". . . wanted to reinforce your argument that nobody is above criticism just because they served their country well." Including you and me. That was my point in case you want to take issue with it.

Terry Garlock

I find it "odd" that you can't conceive of any other reason for Colin Powell to support Obama other the his being "black." Why did Lieberman support Bush? Bush wasn't Jewish. Is it that inconceivable that Powell could actually think Obama was a better candidate than McCain? How about Warren Buffet? He isn't black. Why did he endorse Obama?
And they say racism is dead!

"Those who trade freedom for security deserve neither."

being military - supported his Commander in Chief. . Republican or Democrat. (He served both - loyally) He could no longer support the W administration and said so. He felt that Obama was the better candidate - and age, energy, and ability to organize had more to do with it than color.

While in uniform, Gen(Ret) Powell served with the utmost distinction. It was actually President Reagan who 'stole' him away from the US Army albeit he remained in uniform as the National Security Advisor.

The rationale for his departure from public life likely had more to do with age than policy. I would venture that his support for our President began when it would most benefit Candidate Obama against a most prominent Democratic rival.

Come on, DM, "age, ENERGY, and ability to ORGANIZE"!?!?! What the hell is that!?! Yeah, he served them "loyally" until what? It wasn't so politically correct to do so? Powell was always "coy" about questions given him about his political beliefs. He left people guessing for a long time. Guess we know where he stands now...

If you truly read what I wrote it would not seem so "odd". Lieberman has some moderate to conservative views on certain things, such as homeland security, so he leaned more toward Bush. Warren Buffett is a liberal, so he he leans more toward BO. Either Powell was a closet liberal and so being abit disingenuous claiming to be a Republican or he voted and actively supported BO because he is black. If you look at Powell and McCain, you would realize that they have more in common with each other. It is fairly plain, if you open your eyes to see it. And thanks for bringing out that tired ole "racism" jab! Very original of you!

The problem I have with your assumption is that a life long Repub could only support a Dem because it's "black supporting black." However what about Zell Miller, a life long Dem, supporting Bush in 2004? Again, what about Lieberman, a life long Dem and VP candidate in 2004, supporting McCain? Could it be that Powell simply felt that Obama was a better candidate? That "four more years" that McCain was offering was not in the best interest of the country? It seems that conservative opinion is that it's impossible to believe that a Repub like Powell could simply see Obama as a better candidate. Therefore it must be the "black thing." That assumption, in it's own right, is simply racial. If Obama had been a blue eyed blond named Joe Smith, and Powell supported him, what would the reason be then? Or is it your contention that if Obama had been "Joe Smith," then Powell would have come out in support of McCain?

Did you not read what I wrote about ideology!@?! To be honest, I never believed that Powell was a conservative or Republican, but he professed to be one. He then supported a FAR-left LIBERAL, that the only similarity for them was their race! So, hell YES, if BO had been a "blue-eyed blond named Joe Smith", Powell would have NEVER been an issue and NO ONE would know how he voted!!! Zell Miller, was NOT a left-winger. I know...I met him. He was sickened at what the democratic party had become! If you knew these people, you would see how Powell and McCain were supposedly very similar, very MODERATE REPUBLICANS, so when Powell endorsed and ACTIVELY supported BO, it was ridiculous to even think that it had anything to do with ideology! This is getting ridiculous to explain. If you have an argument different than this, then say so. Just saying that it is possible that Obama, in all his LIBERAL GLORY, was a better candidate for Powell is so silly that I must say this is the end of this discussion. You need something better than THAT!

"Just saying that it is possible that Obama, in all his LIBERAL GLORY, was a better candidate for Powell is so silly that I must say this is the end of this discussion."

Read that sentence, take a sharp stick, jam it in your non-dominant eye and be done with it. The sensation will be quite similar, and I dare say there will be less frustration with the sharp stick route.

Cheers!
Hack

First of all. I chose NOT to comment about any of this until Cyclist decided to drag me into this debate Right here. You had to have seen this. I didn't drag myself into this discussion.

"I don't think Gort/Hack will ever answer that one for obvious reasons."

Which person in this list thinks they are slightly right of center?
Mudcat
USarmybrat
fredGarvin
Cyclist.

Read this quote from myself one more again:

"You can call the Pres what ever you want of course. I'm not arguing that you can't or that it is even wrong to make up names and insults to toss at the President or the opposing side's politicians. But I love the populism which your side claims at the same time. The "just slightly right of center" facade. We're just regular old folks in the middle; heartland Americans. independent minds. This isn't partisan. This is a fight for the middle class!"

Most right side of the aisle bloggers own up to being partisan. I'm a lefty.

If you say you are in the center and talk hard core right (with insults to boot), I just might type something. And I've told you many times before. I'm a democrat. I don't argue the Republican's point for them here. By my count, they have plenty of "centrists" who will do that for them.

Hack

has been pulled.
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I don't think I've missed anything. When I asked Gort why the union people should have special treatment, he never said why.Now he did go on and on about political process and he even brought up ethics, which in my opinion can't be mentioned with politicians and still keep a straight face. When I asked you you if you thought it was fair for the unions to have special treatment( para- phrasing here) you told me a couple of times about how it was the unions job to fight in your best interests. Well I agree, I said I agree. But, we're not talking about milking your employer, we're talking about giving an unfair advantage to the unions. You never, and Gort never, answered the question.

Now, after Obama was elected, but before he took office, he went on and on about how he was going to stop the earmarks, he was going to banish the lobbyists. If I've missed him doing that, I will by all means personally apologize to him, but in all fairness, I don't figure I'll have to. He preached change, but in my opinion it's still business as usual. Did he not sign in law something with more earmarks then ever? When he struck the deal with the unions, were they lobbying him for this deal? It's been a year, the way I understood it, he was going to do away with both the earmark and lobbyists immediately. So, a lie? All in the interpretation I guess.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

We are no longer discussing holding one person to account for another person's words. We are back on unions and healthcare. Ok. How did you miss my answer above? You responded to it. Here is a cut and paste of that answer, again:

"Fairness, IMHO, would dictate that all insured person's healthcare expenses plus compensation be affected similarly. If my healthcare gets taxed then I would expect a tax cut in pay to account for the pay I gave up for the healthcare. If your healthcare actually does get taxed I would expect your overall healthcare cost to be reduced in the signed legislation. If your healthcare cost is not reduced (or at least inflated at a slower rate than you currently experience), I would call the new system unfair."

That's all I can say on unsigned legislation that has little chance of passing anyway.

Good day

Hack

Whatever.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Then you don't have to get stressed and bent out of shape. And ask Cyclist to leave me out of debates I don't jump into.
Hack

FYI, I ain't stressed or bent, but I can see this ain't going nowhere. As far as Cy is concerned, refer back to your answer concerning sniffles and Main.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Another one of those "bitter bloggers" (as you called Cy) here I guess. Yeah, we're pissed we lost. But, no more than your side was the previous 8 years. I know you won't admit it, but it is the same. Perspective is different, depending on the side of the fence you happen to be occupying. Broken promises, outright lies, untamed arrogance and back-door deals are more palatable when your party is in control. Strange, isn't it? Much like you before, I'm enjoying watching this train wreck unfold from the sidelines. And make no mistake, a train wreck it is.

I won't be one of those predicting the demise of the Democrats though. As you recall, I answered dozens of posts here predicting the demise of conservatives generally and the Republican party specifically. Neither party is going away. The reality is this country is centrist. Lots of people lean left and lots lean right. The "Outer Limits" of both parties are the minority. I think there was a serious misread this past election. Lots of people wanted change. But, I'm guessing not this extreme agenda. It's understandable that your party would go "all in" with this liberal wet dream. When you control everything, power is an addictive drug. Polls show the majority of Americans are against this version of health care reform, but that doesn't matter to your side. It will matter though. Look at the poll numbers for Sen. Ben Nelson (hint: guess who used to have one of the highest approval numbers in the Senate??). They are looking worse than that nasty toupee he wears. That little election in Mass today might be another clue on the pulse of the country. Can't wait to see how that turns out.....

No knot in my stomach. No claxon. No call to arms, circling the wagons, raising the draw bridge, charging the cannons, lighting the fuses, boiling the oil..... well, you get it. I agree with everything you wrote sans one point:

"Lots of people wanted change. But, I'm guessing not this extreme agenda."

Extreme agenda? I see a continuation of our war on terror with an emphasis on the state department.

I know of NOT ONE SOUL who blogs here who has had a tax increase from our President. I know many who pay more, like myself, for their property thanks to our local republican leadership. Go figure.

The White House hasn't prosecuted anyone in the former admin for war crimes.

There are no gun bans.

There is no push for gay marriage.

There is simply this: A recognition that healthcare costs have inflated far beyond inflation rates for far too long.

There is a feeling that Americans should have access to basic healthcare.

There is a feeling that carbon emissions are harmful to the planet and we should fight to reduce them. As a side note, check this article out on the economic value in cutting energy use for corporations. Here is an excerpt from the Newsweek article by Matthew Philips:
"IBM is betting the new rules will boost its business. Since 2007, the company has helped 3,300 companies reduce energy use by an average of 40 percent. Most recoup their investment within 18 months, according to IBM. "For every dollar saved on energy, there's an additional $6 to $8 in operational savings," says Rich Lechner, IBM's VP for energy and environment. Just as firms like SAP made billions in the 1980s and '90s selling IT solutions, so too will those helping companies keep tabs on CO2 emissions."

I personally don't see this as anything near the socialist, communist, or far right agenda of which conservatives speak. I believe conservatives are attempting to make our President appear to be a dangerous radical who is ruining our country that was otherwise doing wonderfully before he came along and wrecked it all by extending the TARP started by the previous group of leaders. It's much easier to call this likable father of two names that way.

It seems like a dangerous game to me, but it is politics. And I believe it is ALL politics.

ps: Senator Brown had a great, albeit long, acceptance speech tonight, but it was a bit creepy when he did the "my daughters are available" thing. Have you seen his nude Cosmo photos? I have a feeling they will be making the rounds. Palin? Brown? Your party is getting pretty attractive........physically speaking

Hack

I meant to respond earlier on a couple of things.

We both know politics is a contact sport. Even when all you're doing is watching.

I couldn't agree more about Brown's acceptance speech. It was very good. But, I felt the same way when he mentioned his daughters like that. You can bet two things resulted from that. His wife kicked his a$$ all over Boston afterwards and he will not do that again.

Definitely hadn't seen the Cosmo photos. Had not even heard of them until I saw that psycho Keith Olbermann's quote describing Brown. You know: Olbermann described Brown as "an irresponsible, homophobic, racist, reactionary, ex-nude model, tea-bagging supporter of violence against women and against politicians with whom he disagrees."

Oh, he later apologized. Here was what he said:

"I'm sorry," he said. "I left out the word sexist."

What would one expect from a failed ESPN anchor who has a life sentence on MSNBC?????

I would love to be a "failure" like Glenn or Keith, with a multi-million dollar contract and a show with my name on it.

Keith called Brown irresponsible (for asserting that Obama's mom had him out of wedlock and not offering healthcare for his staff while saying he championed healthcare for all), homophobic(for his fight against benefits and marriage for same sex couples. side note to the side note: Cindy and Meghan McCain are both supporting gay marriage rights now. Go figure).

When someone at his rally suggested shoving a curling iron up his female opponent's butt, he said "we can do this." When made aware of the supporter's comment, he chose not to condemn it in any way. That is, arguably, a situation where any national figure should denounce violence against women suggested at a rally in their name.

But the BIG, BIG, BIG comments that you somehow missed came from Brown's own camp:

Glenn Beck suggested that because of Brown's clumsy comments we should "watch him" because "This one could end with a dead intern." Glenn Beck suggested the new senator elect may be a murderer. Now that is psycho talk. I can't believe you missed it.

Check it out at 3:45

Glenn didn't like the nude modeling pictures either. I sense a rift at the next 9/12.

Hack

I don't watch or listen to Glenn Beck. Comcast doesn't have FOX on HD and I am a bit of an HD snob. I only venture to FOX when there is a news explosion of some sort.

I happened to catch the psycho Olbermann's comments as a link to one of the stories chronicling the Mass election. MSNBC (with their handful of loyal followers) was forced to remove Olbermann and his twin Chris Matthews from this last election coverage due to the bizarre things they were saying on air. Gosh, those must have really been inflammatory....

Also, I would hardly call Glenn Beck one "from Brown's own camp". Like Olbermann, he is simply an opinion "journalist". I know your side struggles with that delineation between people who read news stories off the teleprompter and people who have opinion "shows". But trust me, that line is really there.

The tea party movement endorsed Brown. Sara supported him. He called himself the people's candidate.

Glenn Beck is a 9/12 tea party supporter. Glenn Beck, whom Steve Lindsey says is right most of the time, suggests Brown may have a murderous character flaw. Not my fight, but I see a future 9/12 slash tea party internal conflict a brewing.

Cheers. And I enjoy the back and forth with you guys.
Hack

"Cheers. And I enjoy the back and forth with you guys."

Back at ya Hack. Remember the old days when you were just convinced I was your previous blogging nemesis? Let's don't return to those days....

there would be a divisve environment in the 912 project.. we all feel like Glenn..

No politician is to be trusted UNTIL he has proved himself.

btw.. Glenn really doesn't think Brown is going to MURDER an intern.. It's called humor.. something not to many Liberals get.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

*

AND 100% correct.. in his political assessment of this administration.

On Hardball Chris Matthews said a vote for Scott Brown was a vote for PREMEDITATED MURDER.

"Keith Obermann is going after Glenn Beck now, requesting Daily Kos readers and viewers of his own show to “Find everything you can about Glenn Beck, Stu Burguiere [Beck's radio producer], and Roger Ailes.”

Yes.. Hack Obermann is a PSYCHO.. If you did not know this the Media is just a tad bias. For Obermann to tell the crazies that watch him to target specific individuals for what? Information gathering..? What if a few of his psychos go farther and try to harm Becks family..

Would Obermann be responsible.. YES.

I find it hilarious that Glenn's detractors say he is nothing but a shrill for Republicans and at the same time slam him for pointing out Brown’s comments. I agree with him rather Brown had of said what he did or not.. I would say "watch him as well"..

You see that’s the problem with America.. We send these bozos to DC and expect them to do our work for us.. We never “hold" their feet to fire.. We don’t care as long as they bring home the bacon and don’t get caught diddling an intern..

Watch him a little fact check him.. You will find he is right on the mark.. You won't like what he says. BUT PROVE HIM WRONG you will not do.. Everyone tries and fails. He is not 100% perfect but his record bears him out.

Now as too Browns comments here goes:

"TP: You said that he, his mother wasn’t married when [Obama] was born. You’re not apologizing for that video?

BROWN: Excuse me, now I wanna answer this question. I was asked whether the president’s parents were married. I said I didn’t know. That was the extent of the question."

Simple politicians answer.. If I was asked if YOUR parents were married.. I would say "I don't know" How would I?

"But is Scott Brown even providing health care coverage for his staff? He's got his whole staff working as independent contractors -- top to bottom -- so they're paying their own payroll taxes and presumably finding health care coverage on their own. "

This is all I could find on that subject.. Conjecture.. but then again Coakley and almost ALL politicians do it the same way.

"homophobic(for his fight against benefits and marriage for same sex couples. side note to the side note: Cindy and Meghan McCain are both supporting gay marriage rights now. Go figure)."

Being against the destruction of the traditional family makes one "Homophobic"? and a BIG DUH goes out for Meghan supporting it.. SHES GAY afterall..

Why is it Hack that a small minority of people feel like they can dictate to the rest of us the acceptance of certain traditions being destroyed for their benefit?

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

of a 22 year-old law student ANYDAY over sitting in a church for 20 years hearing "GD AMERICA"! Also, so nice of BO to talk so eloquently about a 20-year member of the military! Yeah, nothing but a "truck" driver that has served his country for many years! Guess Hack wouldn't mind that!

I'll take someone who posed for cosmo over a cocain sniffing community organizer any day.

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

"so nice of BO to talk so eloquently about a 20-year member of the military! Yeah, nothing but a "truck" driver that has served his country for many years!"

Brat, you called Colin Powell an "SOB." Colin Powell, a 30-year member of the military! How dare Brat speak of our veterans this way!

Go find someone with a sliver of credibility to try and make your non-issue an issue for you......because you arguing this is comical.

Hack

Some of us are intelligent enough to recognize the significant difference between what the POTUS blurts out when his teleprompter isn't in the way to prevent him from sticking his foot in his mouth and a blogger.

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Jan. 20 Marks One Year of Broken Promises on Fiscal Prudence, Transparency By Obama, Say Govt. Watchdog Groups

A fairly accurate description of Pres. Obama's first year in office.

WARNING FOR Kevin:
Please don't read it. You'll end up having to visit your health provider for treatment of an ulcer.

"I know of NOT ONE SOUL who blogs here who has had a tax increase from our President. I know many who pay more, like myself, for their property thanks to our local republican leadership. Go figure."

Do you smoke.. Do you know of anyone that does?
That's a TAX.. 189% tax hike. More middle class smoke then upper..

Bush tax cuts are going to expire this month.. Pelosi is not extending them..
That's a TAX.. Middle Class receipants got on average $1586 per household.

New Bank TAXES planned on Banks that did and DID NOT receive Tarp.
That's a TAX.. Taxes are simply passed on as fees to the consumer.

You may not "know" one but we do..

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

Oh yeah, they controlled everything but yet they couldn't pass health care that the liberal progressives and Obama wanted. And then the president said that if the Republicans want to fight "Obama-care" that's a fight he wants to pursue. Perhaps he needs to fight his own party.
-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

They HAD a bullet proof majority.

But for some reason they want the Repub to cover for them.. Why is that?

If Universal Healthcare is SO GOOD FOR AMERICA then you would think the DEMS would just go ahead and get it done.

One for us "BITTER" bloggers to ponder I think..

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~~ Patrick Henry
"Illegitimus non Carborundum"

Seems to put them in a bit of a quandary. Do they back off this miserable attempt and start over? Do they ram it through before he gets seated and live with the Senate's version? Do they use the nuclear option since they are this close?

One thing you can bet on. There are lots of liberal Senators and Representatives who are reviewing their positions now. My bet is that message tonight was received loud and clear by some of those folks who might not want to be job hunting in the near future.

No, the bill isn't signed yet, but, do you think he won't sign it? I have no problem with you getting everything you can from your employer, I understand that's what unions are for. Where I break ranks with you is when, not if, this bill is signed, then right away I seem to be liable for a greater portion of taxes then you,depending on what someone calls my heathcare, just because you're in a union. Can you say with a straight face that's fair? I guess just as fair as that transparency thingy Obama promised. Lobbyist? Earmarks? Now, I'm just an old Bubba here, but it seems to me the group that's going to pay for this health care is getting smaller. Your mileage may vary.

PS, the irony of this is as I type this, I'm sick as a dog.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

You feeling better?