The city should calculate, among other calculations, how much rain there is along with how much OUTDOOR water is used.

How do they measure that?

Well, measuring rain is easy.

But measuring outdoor water usage is not. But that's not my problem. As a homeowner I sure hope I'm not charged based on total water usage, because that wouldn't make sense.

They have the stats on average rainfall. And remember the key word average because no location gets the same amount of rainfall on a consistant basis.

Sprinkling a lawn does not constitute runoff unless way to much water is used. Permiable ground is not considered because it absorbs large amounts of water.

Non-permiable surfaces are the main contributors to stormwater runoff.

The higher the percentage of non-permiable to permiable land the greater the total runoff will be.

The interest is not what falls on ones property, but what comes off ones property.

Your desires are massively way too complicated. You have not considered water entry from neighboring properties and such. The massive effort required to measure accurate on every piece of property. Changes in rainfall on individual property year to year.

Way to complex. Making it way more costly than the current formula to everyone.

Not to mention the ditches, pipes and such are static. They do not vary with rainfall.

Yes, I agree everyone needs to step back and think about this and think hard because the way PTC has set this up it is looking like a tax. Unconstitutional in my mind.
Not to mention the fact that only residential is gettng billing annually oh and poor Wal Mart - Fortune 1 Company is getting billed monthy because the bill is too high! Go figure seem like Discrimation with a capital D to me.

Do we go ahead and challenge this now before we have the added expence of having to give every one that does pay their money back!

Griffin billed with the water bill, hum.. but PTC doesn't bill the water Fayette County does. So why is PTC getting in this business now of Utility Billing? Did we have to purchase software? PTC wants to institute a late fee if the bill are not paid, but they have no idea on how they are going to do that... no kidding PTC should not be in the business of Utility Billing!

Why don't we pay Fayette County to bill it with the water, in my mind that is better than adding staff and taking on a function we have no experience in Utility Billing or TAX collection since it is annual. Come on, why take on new functions and add staff, in this day of outsourcing??? Ok, it still goes back to lack of experience I am sorry.

Too bad I am not paying my Stormwater Utility. So what are they going to do if don't pay. It is not a tax, so no lien can be put on my property. Hum.. or is it a tax???

What's w/ all these PTC republicans? Since Ronnie RayGuns and the Newtster we the citizens have had to pay "fees." One example: Go to one of your National Parks. Tax "cuts" come with someone picking up the the slack. I am still amazed at how strong the passions are on this topic...50 bucks a year. Pro rate a June sale..$25? Wait until you get the bill for the TRILLION $'s spent in Iraq or they come for your son.

Oh, come on! This is just plain silly.

Your getting bent out of shape over the range of something like $25 to $70 annually.

Of course commercial sites are going to be charged massively more. They have massively more impermiable land than homes do!

Charging it with water STILL increases the monthly administrative and billing fees. Then it has to be split out bill by bill to separate accounts.

It is not unconstitutional. Don't have a clue where you got that idea from.

And of course there will be a late fee. That is normal to any billing.

What ever makes you think putting it on some other entity will make it cheaper than PTC doing direct billing?

You are not going to pay it? You think they cannot impose a lean? Think again.

What ever makes you think liens can only be imposed for not paying taxes?

This is a burr that was not worth your sitting on.

Just the facts:

"The City of Atlanta stormwater utility, established in 1999, was the first to be challenged in Georgia. That city's stormwater utility charge was declared to be a tax rather than a service fee and thus was found to be unconstitutional by a Superior Court judge. The judge ordered the city to stop collecting fees and to return fees already collected. The court cited several reasons the city's stormwater utility charge was not a proper service fee. First, the city's objective in adopting the utility charge was suspect because a clear stormwater program strategy was not demonstrated as a foundation for the service charge funding. There was also a significant discrepancy between the originally indicated revenue stream and the amount actually billed by the city. As indicated in an Atlanta Journal Constitution article on December 21, 1999, the judge concluded "the City of Atlanta was generating more money for unspecified purposes rather than segregating money for storm drain maintenance."

Can we be guaranteed we will not have this problem?

In your obsession, Sandy, you are not listening.

Our Utility is based on what has already been challenged in court and found legal.

Get OVER it!

There is nothing wrong with thw Utility plan!

Read the facts of why Atlanta was illegal. And why our is legal.

http://www.forester.net/sw_0405_stormwater.html

More facts:

"Understanding state and local laws in this area is vital. In Lansing, MI, a stormwater utility was struck down in 1998 because the money collected was determined to be a tax rather than a user fee. That determination was based in part on the fact that more than 60% of the money collected was to be used for capital improvements, which would continue to be used by the city long after the current ratepayers had paid for them. Under Michigan law, the tax would have been permissible only if the city's Ordinance 925, which provided for the collection of funds, had gone before the public for a vote. Because it had not, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled the stormwater service charge unconstitutional, and the utility was dissolved."

I know we are not Michigan, but I do not remember voting for our new tax. I just don't think we have all our ducks in a row and are rushing into this with out even knowing how we are going to manage the program, collect fees and accept calls from the public. Where is the cutomer service center that citizens can visit to pay these bills? We PTC do not have the experience to be doing this Utility billing.

Look at some of the web sites set up by successful programs. They have done the homework, set up the proper channels, I am afraid we are going to end up like the city's that were found unconstitutional.

My concerns, I may be alone with these concerns, and I hope I do not have to say I told you so.
That is all from me have fun, and I will sit back now and see how it all shakes out.

It is not a TAX!

Get over it.

This is not an optional program. It is mandated.

To argue against something you first have to have your facts correct.

It is not tax. This Utility format has already been court approved in Georgia. It is mandated so it is not an optional program for the voters to approve.

Dear Ms. Poolman:

I would love to know how your opinion would have fared 230 years ago. You seem to be of the mindset that only those with experience in government should govern, and that no one else could adequately address the concerns and play out all possibilities to solve a problem.

In your world no one would make a move without having some degree of confidence in what they do.

Of course, we wouldn't be having this online discussion, as the Internet wouldn't exist. Nor would government period. Sometimes, experience is nice, but it's never a requirement to do things.

I must assume that from your continued opines regarding topics of which you have limited knowledge, you certainly do not practice what you preach. Furthermore, I can also safely assume you didn't bother to read the VOLUMES of information provided by the City of Peachtree City in the three years prior to the formation of this utility. Most of your concerns regarding legality and appropriateness of this utility have been answered at least about seven times.

You ask, where is the customer service center? Well, let me take a stab at it - I'm thinking it'll be at City Hall, where every other City-based customer service center is. And I guess I'd love to know what you would need to drop off your bill other than 1) a stamp, 2) an internet connection (maybe online payment will be available?) or 3) a drop box at City Hall!

Regarding monthly billing, in a matter of simple math, I would safely assume that the otherwise bumbling (as I would guess you would characterize them) City administration took a look at the costs involved in printing, mailing and processing a large amount of rather small bills every month and said, "Hey, maybe we can save the folks in this town some money and only send out the bill once a year!"

Let's see....$.39 x about 10,000 (that's my guess as to how many houses there are in PTC)....that's $3,900 PER MONTH. That doesn't include the envelopes, the paper, the ink, the staff time, etc. So, thanks, City Council - that was a smart thing to do.

Putting the stormwater on your water bill? Well, what happens when a resident (who may not be the property owner (who is actually the one causing the impact to stormwater)) gets the bill? Well, I'm guessing some of them just won't pay. I think I remember reading that the City tried to get both the Tax Commissioner and the Water Department to help with this, and they both said "No, thanks."

If $72 (the maximum amount that a residential property appears to be getting billed annually from the utility) is keeping you from selling your "assets", you probably should just go ahead and declare bankruptcy now. Better yet, don't take your family out to dinner at a Peachtree City restaurant ONCE. Just ONCE.

Life is about choices. You chose to move to this community, build your nice house with a patio, large driveway and shed. Since everyone seemed to have the same idea around here, over the years what used to work to keep water flowing and not flooding or becoming polluted doesn't work anymore. The federal government said "Cities, we don't like how you're doing things. Fix it. We're not going to give you any money to do it, and we don't really care how you fix it, just fix it." The state came along and said, "Yeah, ditto.".

So I guess it could've been a tax increase, but then what would happen to the concrete colossuses that are our schools and churches? So, right there, it's not a tax.

So SandySue, thanks for your opinions. In the future, it may be more prudent for you to perform your research with the people actually involved in the process (folks like Dennis Chase and the others who were on the Stormwater Advisory Task Force or City staff or their consultants), or, even better, get involved yourself (come to the meeting and ask questions, maybe?). Then you might understand that your concerns have been considered and satisfactorily combatted.

Now go back to American Idol...go Paris!

Mr. Idontknow (aka Anonymous)
First you miss the entire point, it is not the $70.00 annually, if that was it I would not be living where I live.

Did anyone in Peachtree City bother to talk to Brant Keller of Griffin, also known as the executive director of Stormwater in Georgia?

If we would have we would have realized that one of his key components to Stormwater was to have Utility Billing in place prior to the institution of the program.
Yes, the policy of Griffin was such that if you did not pay the entire bill including stormwater your water and / or electric were turned off. I don't see anything wrong with that. If this is truly a utility.
The funds were allocated as follows, stormwater, trash, water then electric, as Griffin bills all on one bill, and golly it is the same cost to mail it all! No additional charges. So to combine the stormwater with our water bill the costs are minimal, we already pay a separate sewer rate so what is your point! We know who the solution set is already....

And it is discriminatory to bill one type user differently than another, bottom line. Commercial should not get treated differently.

And as far as getting involved, I do however they will not conference me in to city council meetings, like they do Mr. Stuart; I too have a job that takes me out of town most weeks. My clients value my knowledge and experience; they want me on site at their locations across the globe.

So, all I can do is call and send emails, which I do, Bernie can testify to that.

It is you who is misinformed I am afraid.

You are correct I feel very strongly that we need experience in government. I do not work for a Fortune 30 company because we have inexperienced leadership. I work for them - because of their leadership and foresight. So, whey should I expect less of my city?
Why would anyone expect less of their city? I don't understand that aspect. Maybe I am centuries behind, but strong knowledgeable leadership is key to success, centuries ago or today.

And what is your point about American Idol?
Yes, I believe Paris is great and I am proud she is from Fayette County. She should go far. I think we agree on that.

SandySue -
We're very happy that you feel yourself so important to remind everyone of your "Fortune 30" experience going "around the world" to help clients with your experience.

Please define how anything I have provided is "misinformed". I enjoy the fact that you completely ignore that Fayette County didn't want to help us with the billings here. If they did, I'm sure it wouldn't be for free, and I'm guessing that "customer service" you would be looking for would be nonexistent if the county billed...I mean how often do YOU call the Water System?

One last pet peeve of mine, especially when you try to be superior to the rest of use - please use spellcheck. It makes you look so much better.

SandySue and Highgreen109 - prime examples of Peachtree City's intellectual creme of the crop.

I am really committed to ignoring this on-going debate about a tempest in a teapot but something SandySue wrote did rub me the wrong way...Was Enron a Fortune 30 Co run by experts & top level mgrs? I won't even drag that top accounting firm into the discussion.

A city cannot finance a non existent program.

First, the program has to be approved.

Second, the financing has to be approved.

Third, the bills go out and a search for staff occurs.

That is EXACTLY how it is happening in PTC.

Bills go out in April and seeking the first two positions for staffing it have been posted.

No one has been hired yet. No equipment has been bought.

And yes, this has been extensively researched with contacts made.

Shut down your electric for not paying Stormwater? Since when did a county or city control electicity?

Add it to the water bill? My understanding is the county said no.

Add it to the property tax bill? Again, my understanding the answer was they would not do that.

You are not seeking answers, you are creating false scenarios.

Since you brought it up.

Again, you error.

I did not bring up spelling errors. idontknow says it is his pet peeve.

Of course it is a spelling error!

Well, I am glad you understand how City's operate.
There are many city's that control their own power.
How do you think larger Utilities grow? By aquisition of smaller city owned and operating power companies.

Follow this link to a local one - http://www.griffinpower.org/

Yes, the city can shut off electricity if stormwater is not paid.

PTC Guy, I am not trying to tell you what to do, but if I were you I would take every advantage I could to learn about municiple governments as you seem to have a comment on everything.

I don't have a position on everything.

Just some important issues where someone is expressing either complete misunderstanding or trying to promote a personal agenda that flies in the face of reality.

And I stay out of places I know nothing about except to ask questions.

Can you please quote where it says electricity can be turned off for non payment of electricity? Why dig if you already know where it is?

Here says the standard for non-payment of Stormwater nation wide is a lien. But it does say in Florida they can turn off other utilities.

http://efc.muskie.usm.maine.edu/docs/StormwaterUtilityFeeReport.pdf

If I am shown wrong then I do admit it and change.

But that isn't going to happen for PTC since Griffin seems to be a reseller, thus supplier, of electicity for that area. Thus they control both the Stormwater and electricity. Which is not true for PTC.

You really think Georgia Power or EMC is going to get involved in the legalities of doing that? Or become a branch of the PTC Stormwater Utility?

Exactly what is your position with this "fortune 30" company? Surely it's not something that would require you to write or correspond. If so, you need to go back to school to learn where to insert apostrophes.

She's ranting. I think she would be happier in Griffin or MI or wherever her Fortune 30 co is HQ'd but she will probably have a longer career away. There is also Newnan Utilities. Don't pay your Stormwater Util "fee" & we'll buy your property on the courthse steps.

Calling the kettle black?

It is kinda like Sandy for Saundra, or Sandra.

I will repeat what I told idontknow before. And he seemed to accept.

In posting perfect spelling and punctuation is not expected. It is a fast communications form falling somewhere between spoken and written.

CONTENT is what matters!!!!

And yes, Sandy, I do have knowledge here as being a forum poster for years. As well as a forum owner for years.

It is pure sloppiness. Not ignorance like the Fulton schools!

PTC Guy, You miss her point. She and Matt will not ever be happy with this because it is not being done the way they want it. She of a Fortune 30 co. & he from his position in Fayetteville. We should all just get use to this type of "tax" it's trickle down Reagonenomics (aka as "VooDoonomics"). Fed. govt makes a policy, says we give no money & you have to figure out how to pay. Hey, they gave you a tax cut, didn't they? I got my projected bill and I am not happy w/ my rate but I don't think I'll squawk too loud over 15 bucks.

I did not miss the point at all. Yep, her way or no way.

But please, don't go all Rupublican versus Democrat.

As an Independent I am fully aware the Dems, especially old Clinton's, favorite popularity angle on this was to give the impression of cutting the big taxes while jacking hidden excise tax, fees and other type charges through the ceiling.

What went wrong with Reagonenomics was the Dems controlled Congress and increased spending faster than income increased.

As President Kennedy did the same thing and it increased income as well.

But enough of that. I am not in love with either party. Just have less use for the Democratic Party.