But you guys are so full of crap on this one. Keep peeing straight up guys... care to take a guess as to where it will land?

Obama.... The Bernie Madoff Of Washington

I suppose that you can't do any better considering your lineage.

One thing... Regan was God, Rush is Jesus. Margaret Thatcher is the Virgin Mary. Get it straight next time!

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

I suppose that you can't do any better considering your lineage.

A lineage that the world respects. When you have something to be proud of - you identify with it - gladly! Not many people have the courage to do that in this 'blog'.

ionized; to separate (from common sense)

the rest of the world is misinformed by the leftists in the media and their own governments, who regard a strong United States as a threat to their agenda to rule the entire world under one strong central government. Of course the media and the rest of the world's governments respect and love Jimmy Carter. He believes that the United States needs to be just like the rest of the world, socialistic, weak and corrupt. I'm proud to be on the side of the U.S. as it should be-- A shining light of freedom and opportunity unfettered by excessive government bureaucracy and taxation. We had the best government and society on the planet given to us by the architects of this great nation, and lesser men like Carter have been working to homogenize it with the rest of the world ever since. The man needs to take a lesson from other past presidents, shut his big mouth and go retire while he still has a shred of dignity left. What the rest of the world thinks matters not in the slightest! We are the ones who had to live with the results of his complete failure, not them. He had his time, he failed miserably, and a better man fixed his f-ups. The end.

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

. . .where we find these better people? (Like Reagan {Iran/Contra}, Rush {oh please}, Thatcher{her husband may dispute her 'given' status} Why not do our duty and hold our elected 'leaders' responsible - instead of once they take the oath - trusting them to do their job? The Constitution, which many here correctly hold dear, states GOVERNMENT - OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE (or something like that). We are THE PEOPLE. Are we doing our job?

are those who consider it an honor and a privilege to serve their constituents by carefully and slowly crafting legislation to actually help the people rather than to implement their cynical leftist philosophies, and then be glad to post that legislation publicly for the American people to read and approve of rather than rushing to ram through legislation that will bankrupt the country and still leave 25 million people uninsured. That's just the start! How about a better elected official who won't campaign as a moderate and govern as a leftist? Or one that actually won't attempt to raise taxes on the middle class when he promises that he won't during the campaign? Or how about one who won't hand the keys to the public coffers to private interests? Can you get on board with that one?

Let's be more generalized; A better elected official won't attempt to legislate around the Bill of Rights to satisfy his own ego. A better elected official would understand that he or she is a servant of the people, not their exalted ruler. A better elected official regards his or her office as a sacred trust and responsibility rather than an opportunity to satisfy their own base desires, such as lust for power or greed.

My criticism is not leveled at any political party. We need term limits and a new set of perjury and breach of public trust laws specifically designed to flush all of those slimy deadbeats out of the power structure.

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

What have you done? Voted every election; criticized elected leaders through letters and blogging; allowed the same ole-same ole stuff in local and national elections continue for your adult life. Have you insisted that our education system provide educated citizens who have the knowledge to ascertain 'good' governance? Have you done all that you can to protect the unique middle class that democracy produces? Have you evaluated why YOU have failed? What are you doing to DO about it?

guy. I'm old enough to remember the results of Jimmy Carter's failures, and I've certainly read enough history, but I wasn't old enough to vote for Reagan. Nor would I have, since I was a leftist until about the age of thirty. Funny thing is, as ticked off at Bush sr. as I was, and as liberal as I was, I still didn't like Clinton in '91. I met him and his... Ahem... wife in '92, on board the U.S.S John F. Kennedy. He was likable, but a total snake oil salesman. I think he would have been a hoot to go to a strip club with, but I didn't trust him as far as I could bowl him. Hillary sent a chill down my spine. She acted as if she was in a sewer dressed all in white, and was as cold as a brass brassiere. I never have gotten over that feeling.

I never voted until I took responsibility for my own life, which was roughly the same time I realized how wrong I had been all those years I was a leftist. Wanna know where I learned to be a leftist? Well, part of it was the opinion that all teenagers seem to have, that whatever their parents may happen to believe in is wrong, that they are the smartest people in the room, and the older people are keeping them down because they are jealous of their youth and brilliance. My understanding of historical record and current events came from school, of course! I was too lazy to consider independent research and too naive to understand that there usually is a simpler, deeper truth and a connection between seemingly unrelated events. Any cool teachers I had that were vocal on the subject of politics were liberals, so that's all I knew. Besides, the liberal message is a feel good message to me, a young person who grew up in poverty and I was looking to pick the pockets of those I considered to be "more fortunate" to finance my own lifestyle. Well, reality asserted itself and I became aware that only hard work and clean living was going to make my life better, and the government wasn't to be trusted. What do you know, it worked! Figure the odds...

Ever since, I have voted to keep the the left from destroying my family through their ever increasing demands, through taxation, on my family's limited resources. I have fought for the rights of parents not to be occluded by the whims of the bureaucrats in the education system. The concept of good governance cannot be taught by indoctrination by leftists. The presentation must be balanced and the results of policy initiatives must be discussed candidly. At no time should any teacher present his or her personal opinion to the student. The student must decide what to believe without the influence of the state.

The state-run educational system has no right to involve itself in anything that doesn't involve the educational basics; reading, writing, arithmetic, science and history. All other things are a distraction and a waste of our taxpayer dollars.

I will continue to do what I do. I vote, discuss passionately and fairly my take on the issues, and write letters to elected officials to encourage them to do the right thing.

It's not all that effective when we have allowed our federal government to usurp so much power that they will knowingly and willingly push through legislation that could end their political careers. You think I'm exaggerating? Let 'em put a public option in a bill that lands on the President's desk and see what happens.

I guess I have "influence envy"... My little voice as a voter is nothing next to the influence of special interest groups and the whims of the mainstream media.

You want a great representation of why I despise liberal idealism? This thread is perfect! Liberals want total control, and faith in anything that isn't the government cannot be tolerated. What business is it of anyone what a persons religious beliefs are, and what gives the leftists the right to validate or deride someone based on their religion? So the same old usual suspects bring up changes to the Bible, a theological discussion, and inject their leftist attacks into it. Yawn! Politics as usual.

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

I certainly appreciate your thoughtful response. Your 'little' voice will be heard when you join with others who are not afraid to speak up. My 'old' life has 'witnessed' what one small voice can do to change the direction of a nation. I may not agree with you - but thanks for sharing your perspective.

Liberals want total control, and faith in anything that isn't the government cannot be tolerated. What business is it of anyone what a persons religious beliefs are, and what gives the leftists the right to validate or deride someone based on their religion? So the same old usual suspects bring up changes to the Bible, a theological discussion, and inject their leftist attacks into it

To label all 'liberals' as those who want to impose their religious beliefs on others is puzzling. Can you give me some examples? Regarding 'validation/deriding' because of religious belief or non-belief - I thought that was what the religious-right was accused of. I have been labeled as a leftist/liberal in this discussion - but I certainly don't hold the beliefs that you have identified as 'leftist or liberal'. Thanks for sharing your beliefs and the reasons for them.

that the leftists are actively involved in initiatives which are designed to separate us from those long-standing beliefs/institutions/attitudes that pose a threat to their power over us through bureaucracy.

One example of this is the "PC" movement, pushed by liberals, which denigrates free speech and even criminalizes certain words and phrases. Certain crimes are considered more heinous if they are perpetrated against certain protected demographic groups. The danger is this; who gets to decide who gets special treatment under the law? Equal treatment under the law and free speech are two of the most important and basic of the core principles of this country, yet the leftists have succeeded in actively eroding those principles.

Other leftist causes include attacks on Christianity, capitalism, parental rights and indirectly, the breakdown of the concepts of right and wrong by promoting unquestioning and unqualified acceptance of improper, dangerous and sometimes illegal behavior under the guise of lifestyle tolerance.

At the same time our children are taught in schools that personal belongings must be shared with the collective, and this "sharing" is compulsory. Personal achievement is increasingly frowned upon in favor of collective achievement. The curriculum now includes non-academic subject matter such as sensitivity, gender relations and alternative lifestyles, and parents' objections to this departure from the basics are met with increasing animosity and derision.

School administrators and government bureaucrats in many places are attempting to even remove the parental right to notification of a minor child's sexual behavior and health issues arising from that behavior including abortion.

The point is, liberals cannot stand to be forced to compete for our loyalties. If you remove religion, parent-child relationships, the ability to succeed through capitalism, a proper education and even one's ability to provide for one's family, what is the one thing left that people can count on? The government, of course!

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

that the leftists are actively involved in initiatives which are designed to separate us from those long-standing beliefs/institutions/attitudes that pose a threat to their power over us through bureaucracy.

Are you identifying all liberals as leftists and all conservatives as rightists?

One example of this is the "PC" movement, pushed by liberals, which denigrates free speech and even criminalizes certain words and phrases. Certain crimes are considered more heinous if they are perpetrated against certain protected demographic groups. The danger is this; who gets to decide who gets special treatment under the law? Equal treatment under the law and free speech are two of the most important and basic of the core principles of this country, yet the leftists have succeeded in actively eroding those principles.

Certain past-practices in this country were found to be against law and the words in our Constitution. i.e. Separating citizens based on gender/color/religious belief; Killing/beating citizens because of their gender/color/religious belief; Denying citizens equal access to opportunities based on gender/color/religion. Certain areas in our country found these laws and adherence to the words in our Constitution to be against their time-honored practices. I’m sure you, as a law-abiding citizen, find the recent incident where an American citizen became angry with another American citizen (and military personnel) and beat and kicked her in a public restaurant, disgusting. What made this crime even more disgusting was the perpetrators use of derogatory racial words as he was kicking the victim. We will see how the justice system handles this case. Because of past ‘practices’, it has become necessary to provide protection for certain American citizens until we no longer see remnants of ‘past practices’. There was also another incident where an American citizen became angry with a woman at an intersection and punched her with his fist. No derogatory words were reported – so this case will not be treated as a crime against a ‘protected demographic group. (Unless her attorneys decide to relate the incident to her ‘gender’.)

At the same time our children are taught in schools that personal belongings must be shared with the collective, and this "sharing" is compulsory. Personal achievement is increasingly frowned upon in favor of collective achievement. The curriculum now includes non-academic subject matter such as sensitivity, gender relations and alternative lifestyles, and parents' objections to this departure from the basics are met with increasing animosity and derision.

I’ve been involved with the education system in this country for many years. . . and never once witnessed where students were forced to share their personal belongings. Great care was/is given to provide students with their lockers/cubbies/private space for their belongings – as long as their belongings are ‘legal’.

School administrators and government bureaucrats in many places are attempting to even remove the parental right to notification of a minor child's sexual behavior and health issues arising from that behavior including abortion.

When the government has to notify a parent about the results of a child’s sexual behavior – the parent has already lost meaningful communication with the child. Parent education for the present epoch is necessary. One does not have to forfeit their principles when they establish open communication with their child. Meaningful parent education can be obtained from churches, clinics, parent ed. classes, etc. When it becomes necessary for a school administrator or a bureaucrat to intervene – the damage of lack of parent supervision is already apparent.

The point is, liberals cannot stand to be forced to compete for our loyalties. If you remove religion, parent-child relationships, the ability to succeed through capitalism, a proper education and even one's ability to provide for one's family, what is the one thing left that people can count on? The government, of course!

The point is, liberals/protected demographic groups are forced to rely on the law and the words of our Constitution. . . and not time honored past practices that make certain groups feel ‘comfortable’.

I know what you mean. Idealism is a wonderful thing and most of us have been party to idealism at some point in our lives. The problem is that idealism is not reality.

I remember a discussion in an English Lit. class in college. We had spent the majority of that semester reading and discussing St. Thomas Moore's "Utopia". The professor was a product of his hippie days living on a commune and often opened the discussion with "What's wrong with communal living?"

During one such discussion of Moore's view of Utopia and the joys of communal living, I found myself to be the sole voice of opposition. I pointed out that while it all sounds just peachy, Utopia fails to take into consideration that there are negative forces in the world. Life is a balance of positive/negative, light/dark, and good/evil. Even for Utopia to succeed, someone must set rules and someone must govern to insure that those rules are enforced - you can not have Utopia if there is dissent of any kind because one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. Now, you have a Utopia in which there are no individual liberties and every thing you as a society enjoy is governed by some self anointed IDIVIDUAL. This is a very dangerous situation because now the governing body has complete control over the idividual - and still there are positive and negative forces at play, that much has not changed.

Professor Hippie's reply was: Well, It worked in the 60's when my commune....blah blah blah

My reply back to him was: If it worked so well for you, on that commune, then why are you now receiving a pay check from Georgia State that my tuition money pays for - the tuition money that I work two jobs to obtain.

Needless to say, I found myself being a lone voice in that room. As I looked at my professor and all my fellow classmates, I realized that, while I had always thought up to then that I was a liberal, I was the only capitalist in that room. And that I was the only one that offered up any reason to the discussion.

Let's see.. lets reverse it..
You forget Obama is the Messiah
Paul- Oberman
Luke- Reid
John- Murtha
Mary- Pelosi
Judas well he switched teams so that has to be Barney Franks..

and in the Conservative World you pay for what you receive..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

It's your side rewriting the Bible therefore none of the people you mention can be in it except as demons to be cast out.

Let's compromise, Arlen Specter is Judas.

but works as well...

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

. . .and for 8 years, we paid and paid and paid. Now we have to 'pay' to correct the mess we're in for 'over-spending'. Get it? It's tough, but we have to look at what we need to correct before we are completely ruined - and we begin with health care and the escalating cost of our present system. HEALTH CARE REFORM! Get it? Then it's war cost - and instead of continuing a 'war-based' economy for the greedy and irresponsible, we need to proceed from reason rather than greed. We have lost too many of our finest men and women. We're a nation that should be known for 'BUILDING/PROTECTING' not 'DESTROYING/CONQUERING'. The cute 'retorts' from unthinking and rude conservatives is helping the cause of 'thinking' Americans who see beyond labels and the failing policy of 'just say no'.

Blah, Blah, Blah.. You sound like the teacher on Charlie Brown..
Sugarfoot yep I agree with you and you and you, but not you..

You two should really form a support group for the Bush Haters of the World..

"and for 8 years, we paid and paid and paid. Now we have to 'pay' to correct the mess we're in for 'over-spending'. Get it? "

Is that why we just TRIPLED the DEBT which is now up to 1.4 TRILLION and GROWING

"and we begin with health care and the escalating cost of our present system. HEALTH CARE REFORM! Get it?"

So your answer is to SPEND MORE.. Great strategy there.. Try that at home.. Running short on money.. go out and buy a new car.. see how well that works for ya..

"Then it's war cost - and instead of continuing a 'war-based' economy for the greedy and irresponsible, we need to proceed from reason rather than greed. We have lost too many of our finest men and women."

So why does your dear leader sit on his A$$ on the decision to either fight this war that you guys wanted or get out.. Answer that one..

"We're a nation that should be known for 'BUILDING/PROTECTING' not 'DESTROYING/CONQUERING'."

That sentence is so ignorant it's hard for me to respond.. Just who have we destroyed and/or conquered?

"The cute 'retorts' from unthinking and rude conservatives is helping the cause of 'thinking' Americans who see beyond labels and the failing policy of 'just say no'."

Specifics Please.. Like "Cute Retorts" is limited to rude Conservatives.. Oh you have never done that have you?

It's obvious to all you are the one that doesn't "GET IT".. We are BROKE.. as in NO MONEY.. Get it? Every Social program is Broke.. Get it? The Government cannot do anything with any sort of Efficiency.. Get it? This is not about Health or Care.. Get it?

No... No you don't.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

. . .to respond is easy. Any creative ideas? (based on 'facts' and not 'talking points') [By the way - the bi-partisan finance committee just stated that the health care reform would SAVE billions] Hmmmmm.

irresponsible moron would think that spending less money than the ridiculous amounts that were being batted back and forth in the legislature (1.2 trillion down to 829 billion) for another bureaucracy that we really don't need in the first place (and most voters don't want), then raising taxes on productive members of society to pay for it as SAVING billions. Are you sure you want to believe these guys? Bi-partisan translates to "crooks from both sides of the aisle". This is like insisting to your husband that buying a new purse that you don't need for $400 when the original price was $800 saves money, especially while your family is struggling to make ends meet. I don't think you are a moron, but really? Have you thought it through? The return on investment just isn't there! I want reform also, but this is a bad plan. It doesn't even cover everyone! We need to start over.

Conservatives have fair market-based solutions to this issue, but you can't be bothered to consider them because someone outside the beltway may actually make a profit from them.

...And round and round we go...

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

. . and ask to see the budget! Where is the money going that the banks/institutions have paid back with interest? What is our income? What is our expense? (Thought about the $400 for the $800 purse - you're right - I'm not a moron!

Conservatives have fair market-based solutions to this issue,

Please share!

Free Health Care" thread sometime back, so I'll quote myself;

You really want to know what I think will "fix" health care?

1) Stop letting illegal aliens use our emergency rooms as their own personal concierge doctors. Make them take their little spawn back to their country of origin instead of granting citizenship to the child as a result of their parents' illegal actions, along with a bill to that country's government for medical services rendered. Use the money freed up by those children not attending public schools at American taxpayer expense to bolster support for indigent care for American citizens. While we're at it, we need to deny all state services to illegals to save money. Not only would this help by removing some of the tax burden from us, but word would spread that the welcome mat is no longer out on the front porch. I betcha' the unemployment numbers would look better pretty quickly, don't you think?
2) If you call an ambulance, you'd better be able to pay for it or actually need it. If not, the hospital has a shortage of people to wipe up puke and clean out bedpans. As a matter of fact, hospitals should be able to require that should a person be unable to pay for their care, they can take payments in the form of menial labor.
3) Tort reform is desperately needed in this country. The lotto mentality of many people has led us to an overly litigious society that kills a doctor when it comes to malpractice insurance. Any damages should have a cap. If a person or family isn't going to be rich of their own accord when they are healthy, why should they be rich because something bad happens to them?
4) Require hospitals and doctors' offices to post pricing schedules and require full and complete disclosure when quoting prices for common procedures, medical items, tests and especially drugs. Give consumers the ability to report fraud and air grievances using a standardized procedure.
5) Get off the backs of the pharmaceutical industry. They perform miracles every day with their drugs, and it takes massive expenditures in R&D, testing and especially the FDA approval process to bring a much needed drug to the market. Dare I mention the stuff that costs a fortune to make that they take a loss on every day, like vaccinations? Profit isn't an obscenity!!! Let them make one. Every time you throw another unnecessary expenditure, another tax hike, another fee or fine at them, they just pass it along to us.
6) Give the people control over their own medical records and put 'em in a digital format. Hell, put 'em on the patients' insurance cards if you want. Let's step into the 21st century, shall we?"

I'll add this;
We need our coverage to be portable, and we need more players in the game. Forcing Insurance companies to compete for our business is the single greatest weapon in our arsenal. That way, if you don't like the service or cost, you vote with your feet and fire them.

We also need to remove the legalese from the contracts and literature. Mice type is an anathema to understanding and an impediment to fair business practices.

Do away with the lobbies in Washington by limiting the amount of influence the politicians have, and make any regulations apply to the entire industry and not just certain markets/companies. The less involved they are in any market, the less influence they wield over the industry, the less damage a corrupt politician can do on behalf of the lobbyist. I think all meetings with contributors need to be transcribed and made available to the constituents of that official. Total transparency must be the law.

Maintaining one's health is much less expensive that treatment of disease or injury. I understand that Kaiser-Permanente is working toward shifting the focus to health maintenance and prevention, and their coverage is pretty affordable.

How about term limits? I like this idea.

There are more ideas out there. We don't have to hurt the economy to make things better. Unleash the free market. PROFIT IS NOT AN OBSCENITY!!! If the government is empowered to impose higher costs on a business, the smart businessman folds the increase into the operating costs, raises the price of the product or service or sends the jobs overseas to make up the difference, and he moves on. Be mad if you want to, but nobody gets into business to break even or lose money.

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

So according to Obama who said we have 30 million uninsured.. then we are going to spend 900 Billion to cover 5 Million according to the CBO.. and you believe it's all good.. Amazing..

Oh btw.. those savings are supposed to be from stopping waste and fraud..
My question is if they know it's there why don't they PROVE they can remove it FIRST.. Answer: It will never happen.. Why do you think the "Fees and Taxes" are going into effect as soon as passed, but the actual "CHANGES" will not occur until 2013... Answer: Obama wants the effects known after he is presummably re-elected in 2012 then it will be too late to do anything..

Again I say this is not about HEALTH OR CARE if it was why wait until 2013 for it to go into effect?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I can't believe it, but we do.

We have paid, with our taxes and lives of our children gone to war.

The average Americans wallet has been sucked dry. For 8 years everything has been about the big money guys. They have gotten rich with the blessings of our past politicians. If they could make a buck more by moving jobs oversees, they did it. If the insurance industry could pay lobbyist millions to sway our congressmen, they did, and made billions. All with the government looking the other way.

Now, after our government giving billions to the frauds in the banking industry, don't you think it is about time they do something for us? We have been robbed.

Everyone knows this, but a few are still holding on to the idea they are 'middle class'. You associate middle class with those that can pay their bills because most have never seen the truly opulent rich.

To be honest, true middle class now, is someone with several million dollars.

Some may not be hurting now, but they will if something isn't done. I think trying to get money into the hands of those that will spend it is a good thing. After all, it was our money in the beginning.

wallet has been sucked dry. For 8 years everything has been about the big money guys. They have gotten rich with the blessings of our past politicians. If they could make a buck more by moving jobs oversees, they did it. If the insurance industry could pay lobbyist millions to sway our congressmen, they did, and made billions. All with the government looking the other way.
Now, after our government giving billions to the frauds in the banking industry, don't you think it is about time they do something for us? We have been robbed."

You are remembering to include the quasi-governmental entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in this diatribe, right? The ones that the Democrats have been regulating? Chris Dodd and Barney Frank? Yeah, they did a bang-up job of ensuring that the little people didn't get hurt while they were getting their kickbacks and campaign contributions.

My point is that you have blinders on, suggarfoot. You see the offenses of one without considering the offenses of your own. Stop the partisanship.

You really need to get over the class envy you have. The big money guys drive the economy. If not for them, most of us wouldn't even have a job. You Cannot truly believe that the "true middle class now, is someone with several million dollars." Come on! The middle class is what it always was. It's just smaller, and the wealthy and the business leaders aren't to blame for that. The fact is that in most markets and circumstances, we make more money and pay less for goods and services than ever. I know that there are exceptions to that, but if you can avoid those exceptions you are doing a service to yourself. I myself would be quite comfortable if not for the 40% (and rising) tax burden we pay to the government, and that is a burden that I cannot avoid by changing my spending habits or making wise investment choices.

By the way, what makes you think that the majority of wealthy individuals have gotten richer in the recent economy? Most of them have lost more than the rest of us because their money is made by risking it through investment. That investment is what translates to increasing the job market and innovation. You'd do well to remember that the next time you go to the ballot box. The best thing we can do for "the rest of us" is try to give the wealthy and the corporations a break on taxes. That would certainly grow the economy, just like it always has in the past.

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

What I do have are very good ethics. What has been going on is nothing more than legal stealing.
"Most of them have lost more than the rest of us because their money is made by risking it through investment. That investment is what translates to increasing the job market and innovation....You'd do well to remember that the next time you go to the ballot box.... The best thing we can do for "the rest of us" is try to give the wealthy and the corporations a break on taxes. That would certainly grow the economy, just like it always has in the past."

How old are you? To loan money at 30% (Credit card) interest isn't risk taking, its loan sharking!

My family has two very successful business that are over 60 years old. They were not built by 'risk taking'. They were built.. and paid... for with hard work. When you care about your employees, you don't take 'risk', and you don't stay in business long either if you do. Stability and good judgement create secure jobs. You don't get involved with bank loans either, nor wall street.

The risk taking I think you are referring to could be the stock market. Risk taking and investment shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence.

"You'd do well to remember that the next time you go to the ballot box. The best thing we can do for "the rest of us" is try to give the wealthy and the corporations a break on taxes. That would certainly grow the economy, just like it always has in the past."

You know the last person I heard say that was Sarah Palin. Now she is really known as an intellectual.

I have no intentions on voting tax breaks for the very rich, which I can tell, doesn't include you. Furthermore, we never whined that we could hire more people if they just gave us a break in taxes and charged the 'little man' more. We wouldn't have been caught dead saying that!

You have a lot to learn, and I think your gonna get 'skinned' before you learn it.

:How old are you? To loan money at 30% (Credit card) interest
:isn't risk taking, its loan sharking!

Did anyone hold a gun to people's heads and force them to live beyond their means and pay 30% interest? Did anyone force anyone else to even pay 10% on credit card debt? The wonderful thing is that you don't have to pay ANY interest on your credit card if you pay the balance each month.

There is a certain irony that big business in the USA, the Chamber of Commerce and all big business-related entities have been screaming for years how crappy the public education system in America is, yet they get very rich off the horrible "graduates" being produced. It seems to me like they have more of a vested interest in the country continuing to crank-out tons of people who never heard of Home Economics. Oh well, that's another subject for another time.

:Risk taking and investment shouldn't be mentioned in the same
:sentence.

All investing requires taking risk, so I don't get where you are coming from here. There is no such thing as "guaranteed" anything at the end of the day when you invest money on anything, anywhere. It's all risk taking. Some investments are less risky than others, but they all involve some element of losing it all.

:Furthermore, we never whined that we could hire more people if they
: just gave us a break in taxes and charged the 'little man' more.

I'm very confident that the customers in these two businesses that have been around for 60 years or so are indeed charging the "little man" or whomever more than they used to six decades ago. That's due to inflation and all kinds of other costs increasing over time like labor, as well as TAXES.

People need to get the idea out of their heads that big corporations "pay taxes." They don't except in a purely literal sense. That is a cost of doing business that is passed right along to the purchaser of their product/service. You raise their taxes, they raise their prices. I'm not saying that if you cut their taxes they will rush out tomorrow and cut their prices, but you do stop the inevitable increases whenever you raise their taxes or throw up obstacles that increase their cost of doing business somewhere.

You don't make it off the backs of others, if you make a good product. The stock market was about making paper. We.. never over charged anyone. The land, the buildings, everything is paid for. We never robbed Peter to pay Paul, and called it good business. We never had to. We never laid off anyone because it would help our bottom line. If you did a good job and we hired you, you stay. A good reputation in business is better than gold. You can't buy it, you have to make it the hard way, earning it, and again, if you know what your are doing, you don't take risk. If you know your stuff, and do a good job, don't take out loans, it ain't a risk.

People confuse fly by night bs with good business. There is a big difference. I stand on what I say, Bush wasn't too smart, and he let people of the same, take advantage of the little guy. Taking advantage is not doing business, it is stealing.

A good living can be made honestly.

because that is something you sorely lack in.. Your simplistic views of Capitalism, Wealth and Business reminds me of what the term Sophmore really means.. It is derived from Latin and Greek terms.. Sophiticate and Moron.. also known as a WISE FOOL. One whom THINKS they know it all while proving one knows nothing.

You do so every post.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

"Your simplistic views of Capitalism, Wealth and Business reminds me of what the term Sophomore really means.. It is derived from Latin and Greek terms.. Sophisticate and Moron.. also known as a WISE FOOL. One whom THINKS they know it all while proving one knows nothing."

did you notice I..fixed your spelling of Sophomore and Sophisticate?

Lindsey, I'm all ears to hear about you capitalist ventures. I would love to hear about the companies you started... and if they succeeded. Since you are speaking from experience and not out of your a$$, as it sounds. Tell us all about your ventures.

Or do you sit at home and do billing or collecting? I bet that is closer to your venture!

The best thing we can do for "the rest of us" is try to give the wealthy and the corporations a break on taxes. That would certainly grow the economy, just like it always has in the past.

We gave them a 'break' - and they 'ran' with it (kept it/fraud/corruption) remember? Where have you been? Enron, AIG, etc.? Remember?

We have a tax cheat writing our tax laws. Charlie Rangel is a tax cheat. And yet the Democrats successfully killed a resolution that would have removed him as Chairman of the House Ways and Means committee. Remember, only Republicans can be corrupt. Democrats? Theirs is a culture of caring ... right?

For those of you who are government educated - all tax bill originate in the House. Charlie Rangel is the chairman of the committee in charge of drafting tax legislation. While writing the tax laws that govern you this clown has done a good job of avoiding the law for his personal finances. Here are just some examples:

1) Failure to report over $1 million in outside income and $3 million in business transactions as required by the House,

2) Failure to disclose at least $650,000 in assets he had previously failed to list on his House financial disclosure forms,

3) Failure to disclose to the IRS or on his financial disclosure forms $75,000 in rental income for a beach villa in the Dominican Republic,

4) Violation of state laws by claiming three primary residences and breaking New York City regulations by maintaining four rent-controlled apartments,

5) Violation of House rules by using congressional letterhead to solicit donations for an education center bearing his name at City College of New York, and

6) Delinquency in paying his property taxes on two New Jersey parcels and failure to report the sale of a $1.3 million brownstone.

Also....

50 Examples of Government Waste

Politicians like Rangel and our government have the market on Fraud, waste, and corruption cornered.

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.

THE PRESIDENT: And that's an area where there should be the potential for some bipartisan agreement, because I think, on the books, the rates in the United States are high. In practice, depending on who it is that you can, what kind of accountant you can hire, they're not so high. And that's an area where we can work on. Simplification, same thing. I don't think there's anybody out here who thinks that we are making it customer-friendly for the taxpayer.
And that's an area where we can make some great progress.

REPRESENTATIVE RANGEL: Well, if you're looking for a fight and a partisan fight, any loophole you close is a tax increase. We have to get over that and make certain that the vast majority of businesses recognize it's in their best interest to do the right thing as relates to those who've taken unfair advantage of the government.

Source: Rangle's own congressional website.

He's such a joke.

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worked for a POOR person.. No? Didn't think so.. Simply demonizing all who are wealthy is an form of intelectual dishonesty not fit to post.

Corruption is not limited to the Wealthy.. You can find it everywhere.. Rich, Poor and Politician alike.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I will assume that it was late - and possibly your thinking cap was on crooked. Not many have had an opportunity to work FOR a poor person. I have had the privilege of working WITH people who may be considered 'poor‘- all of my life. I have not demonized all wealthy people. I certainly have demonized in my thought those corporations and their leaders who have PAID FOR bills to be passed in Congress so that the middle class could be taken advantage of in too many areas that have an impact on their daily life. We are witnessing 'corruption' daily. Unfortunately corruption can be found in the boardrooms of the 'wealthy' as well as in the gutters of the 'poor'. We can also find persons of integrity in both places. Please be intellectually honest and don't ask someone a question; answer the question yourself; and then proceed to pontificate. This is not the basis for a discussion based on 'facts'.

"We gave them a 'break' - and they 'ran' with it (kept it/fraud/corruption) remember? Where have you been? Enron, AIG, etc.? Remember?"

That was your statement.. Where in it does it say anything about all wealthy are not corrupt? Your post last statement has nothing to do with these post.. Please try to keep up..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Attempting to have a discussion with you is like herding cats!

because they didn't have the intelligence to make it any other way. To pay lobbyist to give you an advantage over the rest of the taxpayers is not something most would be proud of. To make billions, knowing it came off the backs of innocent working people is not something most could live with.

Ionised or whatever can keep drooling over them if he wants to, but it is a shame the government let these nut cases do what they have.

to defraud/be corrupt? I don't know who you are talking about. Are you talking about mortgage companies? As far as I'm concerned, in most cases the people taking out those exorbitant loans are more at fault that the mortgage companies that were admittedly pushing them. It'd be different if the mortgage companies were forcing the customers to sign for the loans at gunpoint, but why would they? They lose money on a defaulted loan too.

The government, to, has their share of the blame. Pressure brought to bear by special interest groups such as ACORN caused elected officials to involve themselves in the industry, forcing mortgage lenders to make loans to credit risks, low income individuals and unstable income wage earners who would ordinarily been told to go rent until they got their ducks in a row. I'm sure the mortgage lenders relented only after certain assurances were made to them concerning recovery of defaulted funds. Well, the government delivered on that promise, didn't they. All of this goes all the way back to the people who were stirred up by the crooks in ACORN in the first place, those who were led to believe that the American dream of owning a beautiful home was theirs for the taking without being prepared for the responsibility.

Every person should consider it their personal responsibility to take the steps necessary to protect themselves from hucksters. If you don't think it smells right, don't mess with it. That's excellent advice that is largely ignored by people who have developed an entitlement mentality. Of course there are a few dishonest business people, but the elected officials interposing themselves in the process have done more harm than good.

At what point are you honest enough to admit that people need to take responsibility for their actions? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that a $350,000 loan is tough to pay off when you make $30,000 per year. Now it becomes my responsibility to pay for these peoples' greed and ignorance?

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

greed, and capitalism blur in some people's eyes, That is the problem. Real capitalism isn't greed. It is having a good sound game plan and doing it. It has nothing to do with taking advantage of others.

It has to do with finding your niche, hard work, and good planing, and again hard work. If you are good, you will make it. Crooks with a little money, just try to stack the deck and make it anyway they can. Because they are not willing to work hard. It is so much easier to take adavange because that is how their mind works.

I can not, in one breath, advocate an individualist approach to religion and advocate an individual's right to liberty under a capitalist system without also strongly advocating an individual's obligation to take responsibility for themselves.

As you say, we should hold our government responsible to uphold their oath to the PEOPLE. But we must also, to be worthy of the very liberty we cherish, expect the PEOPLE to be responsible for themselves and their own destiny.

"Any society that would trade a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin

the ones that bought million dollar homes while flipping hamburgers for a living are not responcible for their actions.. It was all Corporate Greed and those darned Wealthy people grubing everyone elses money..

Bush made them do it.. He was the leader of the EVIL Capitalist cabal out to screw everyone.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

they always try to justify it. While people "flipping hamburgers for a living in million dollars houses" were wrong to take out those loans, so were the people that took advantage of them. Again, taking advantage,it is stealing. It isn't capitalism, you haven't had an original idea, made something, you just stole from the weaker.

Back to the real subject. A lot of people paid their cc on time etc, only to look down at an increased rate of 30%, either because the cc co ...could..raise them, and did, or because they were a couple of days late, etc, the reasons are endless. The point is that they employed lobbyist to stack the deck, and our politicians were moved to vote in something that wasn't good for most taxpayers. But the were good for special interest.

The insurance companies have crippled most working people. If you have a family and 2 or more cars, you are paying about 700-1000. in insurance a month, just to walk out the door.

Their lobbyist and bought politicians have made this possible. If your credit is'nt good, your car insurance goes up. There is no logic in that, accept someone got paid off to pass that law. The insurance companies made billions off that one little thing alone.
You pay good money for their services, yet they are allowed to try to beat you out of your claims.

Many years ago, I was having trouble getting paid for some medical claims. Although I had sent them in 3 times, they claimed they never got them. Since I lived close by, I decided to hand carry them. I got there about lunch time and saw their employees in the court yard. I was totaly blown away by what I saw I was dealing with. They deliberately hire people who are not too smart, hard to deal with, so you will just give up and go away. I was one of the rare that wasn't going to do that.

Again, that is not captilism. Kids have been made to believe this, but again, it isn't. It is just another way to take someone's money

all corporations are bad.. Insurance Companies are all evil it's a shame they only make 2-3 cents on the dollar.. THEY are EVIL.
Your opinions don't jibe with the rest of America who state they are quiet happy with their insurance and their carriers.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

"Your opinions don't jibe with the rest of America who state they are quiet happy with their insurance and their carriers."

!!!!You are INSANE!!!

I'm out of here..if Jeff C wants to pacify your visions on grandeur..so be it...

with dire and sometimes criminal consequences. Don't get me wrong, I think that most of the real criminals got off really easy, and it offends me to my core. In a fair world they would have paid for their greed and malfeasance with their jobs (and in some cases their freedom), but life isn't fair as long as we have corrupt politicians involved in the mix. And where were the all powerful and benevolent elected officials during that time? Too busy feeding at the trough, I'd imagine. Why not? Unemployment was low, the stock market was booming and we could just blame Bush and the Republicans if anything did go wrong. Perfect recipe for disaster...

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

Good stuff man. You are dead on and have a very good concept of how it all works and how it is put together. Well done...... you are a worthy read.

Obama.... The Bernie Madoff Of Washington

You've done it. I'll never shut up now! Seriously, thanks. Like my head wasn't already swelled enough.

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

you guys are too much!!!
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and hanging comes to mind.. Be safe out there.. it's a dangerous world..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

The Old Testament has been around and compiled throughout the 900-200 BC (or BCE for those secular types). It comes to us in various forms and mediums but was held by the ancient Hebrews and maintained. There are close to original source documents.
Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, on the contrary, does not have any documentation from the supposed time of its writing to approximately 800 years later when those copies have been uncovered. The source to copy gap is well over 700 years. Much more likely to be exaggerated and expanded between source and earliest copies-legend development.
The New Testament of the Bible has been pegged at writing within the first 50 years after Christ's crucifiction. The earliest writings of Paul date about 20 years after crucifiction. The earliest shards of New Testament Gospels- I believe it is Mark have been found in caves in Eygpt and date to around 93AD. There is a very small gap, historically speaking between the events of the New Testament and its capture in written form. Gaps that do not lend themselves to literary legend development. There are also several thousands of source copies dating back in the first 200 years of the Christian church.

I find it interesting that anyone would try to drop passages out of the Bible when it is documented to be there before the rise of the Catholic church. Translations are to bring the message to a form that is understandable today. Not to change its meaning entirely.

The coptic texts that were found in an Egyptian cave were the Gnostic texts - several gospels written by Phillip, Mary, Judas, etc. These books do not appear in the King James version but did appear in the earlier Gothic Bible (or was it the Geneva Bible?).

Translation is, as you say, to modernize the message of the Bible. What I speak of is not a matter of translation but one of omission. I know that there is much controversy surrounding the Gnostic texts because they seem to lean more to mysticism and advocate that God dwells inside each of us and that glory can be found within. This was a threatening idea to a Church that wanted sole dominion over souls.

My point in my earlier post was not to slam anyone's religion. I wouldn't do that as I feel everyone has a right to to a personal relationship with God. I did not mean to insult anyone. I'm still doing my own soul searching. But I do believe in God - a divine truth.

It's great when it's expressed so beautifully!

No not really..

One of the reasons I detest organized Religion is the interpretations added to the sermons.
As Jimmy Buffet said "There's a fine line between Saturday night and Sunday morning."
All that being said I would rather be the one attacking my own religion then some avowed God hater and known Christian hater. They detest us (conservatives) attacking their religion "Global Warming" but they do not have a problem attacking Christianity.

Are the 10 Commandments that wrong.. Do not Kill, Steal, Commit Adultery, Lie, etc..

Wow radical stuff.

If we all just lived by those rules.. then we could all enjoy life.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

...now go sit in a corner.

"I would rather be the one attacking my own religion then some avowed God hater and known Christian hater."

No where in my post did I bash christianity or god, however, I was drawing attention to the idiots at Conservapedia and their "Bible Project" to re-interpret the bible, eradicating it of a god-induced "liberal bias." Isn't this blasphemy? These folks are part of the lunatic religious fringe that are supposedly giving you conservatives a baaaaaaad name. Are you part of this fringe and is that why you took offense to my post? Makes sense now I suppose.

Mainstream.. never said you mentioned your WELL KNOWN disdain for all things Christian here in this particular post did I..? Please re-read..

"I would rather be the one attacking my own religion then some avowed God hater and known Christian hater."

That is what I said.. Now just where do I say that you said it in this post?? or is it just your prejudice shinning thru?

Oh and BTW.. Thanks for BARKING.. throw a stone at a pack of DOGS and the hit one always yelps.. Did I mention you in my response to Dawn..?
Like MOC.. I also have your number.. tootles.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

the more you write, the more unhinged you sound.

Gotta go.. Got me some MREs to pack, Magazines to fill and Gold to buy.. Tootles..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

All I can say is, Amen sister.