I never said be nice, but to FOLLOW OUR OWN LAW. How can we expect higher standards of everyone else if we do not hold ourselves to those standards.

Its the same with children, do as I say, but not as I do, does not cut it.

Yer an idiot!

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Wow, "Jeff C. and Darth D." ----LOL...

Seriously, we need to be more sensitive. We need to be like the Europeans and be more understanding of Muslim culture with things like gang rape or as they call it France "tournante". Why have a US Constitution when we can have sharia law? So that settles it--- more surfboarding less waterboarding.

are you understanding of DC culture with things like economic gang rape by the FED and a complicit congress, a congress that doesn't listen to our 1000 to 1 phone calls protesting the banker takeover?

The bill was written by Geithner BEFORE the transition to Obama. What does that tell us: THEY ARE ON THE SAME PAGE OF THE SAME SCRIPT!

Johnson is Nixon is Ford is Carter is Reagan is Bush is Clinton is Bush is Obama. They are ALL puppets working for the private FED. PERIOD!!!

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

I'm sure that waterboarding is torture but so is blowing the people of our country into little bitty pieces so that the only thing their loved ones have left that they can bury is bone fragments or a bent up piece of jewlery. The relatives of the victims of 9-11 are still being tortured daily. So am I. It is torture to know that we are not safe anymore! They want to KILL US PEOPLE! WE NEED TO WAKE UP! IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

Some Republicans WANT another terrorist attack, they'll deny it up and down, even to themselves, but no one can deny that it would help them in the polls.

Enough said.

Don't Spread My Wealth.... Spread My Work Ethic

You have got to be kidding with that remark. No one in their right mind wants another attack! Democrats, Republicans,libertarians,or just plain idiots. we all need to watch the news reports of 9/11 everyday! lest we forget

It makes complete sense. Another terrorist attack would be an extremely effective political tool against Obama. Bush got elected mostly on the leverage of 9/11 and making people think electing the Democrats would risk another terrorist attack.

Between supporting Obama' position or siding with the opinions and actions of people like you and the Robert Mugabes of the world then I'll still go with Obama.

The lesser of two evils is still an evil. You can't justify your own actions by pointing at someone else, it is a logical fallacy. Of course people have a problem with beheadings, but no one is surprised, as it is within the very nature of terrorism to do things like that. Your argument is tired and invalid.

Agree about the lesser of two evils. Don't believe any prisoners ever died or were seriously injured. And while it might be torture in the view of the recipient, I think that the legal definition all has to do with the intent of the person administering the technique.

or beatings, fingernails removed, broken bones.. etc..
Which is worse?

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..

GUN CONTROL Link

This is America. Neither is acceptable. We're supposed to have standards that are above whatever is deemed acceptable by the worse despots in the world. That's kinda what differentiates us from them.

I am asking this for a reason..
I would guess you think both are torture.. Correct?

Then I have to ask.. Where were you and the rest of the dems on RENDITION.. Did you think that was ok.. because Clinton was doing it??? Is it wrong only if it occured under the Bush admin??
How do you think the suspected Terrorist were treated in Egypt...??
The original post will give you some idea of just how well they were treated.. Let me clue you in.. They were not given 5 meals a day.. Culturally sensitive activities.. etc..and by the way more the 3 (THREE) TERRORIST were sent to EYGPT Jeff.. A LOT MORE.. We Waterboarded just THREE TERRORIST.. and for that you guys are squealing like we beheaded some one.. oh wait.. that was one the the TERRORIST we WATERBOARDED.. OH BOO HOO..

I guess you were fairly silent on Rendition back then.. I could be wrong though?

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..

GUN CONTROL Link

That you will find that I was the very first person ever to oppose rendition on this blog site, much to the criticism and scorn of the neocons here for whom there is no bottom and who rejoiced amongst themselves at the most depraved imaginings they could come up with.

At least during the Clinton years, the United States required the country that received a rendered person to have some kind of legal process against the suspect like an arrest warrant or indictment. For the Bushies, it was just a convenient way to have someone tortured out of sight and in secret. It's a crime. Bring them to court and try them. That inconvenient rule of law thing and all.

I'm pleased that you have raised your standards up from Zimbabwe's to Egypt's and they are now at the Clintonian level.

Jeff we have Gitmo BECAUSE Bush ENDED RENDITION.. not the other way around.
Can't have it both ways.. but I guess you can..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..

GUN CONTROL Link

I'm sure suicide bombers are ready for any kind of horrible torture we are willing to dish out. They want to die. I question the effectiveness of any kind of interrogation against people like that.

More Alex Jones stuff--I'd bet that if Mancow had said "Naw,that ain't torture." it would never have been posted.

Ok, its torture according to a wimpy radio guy. Now we have a definition. So what? JeffC thinks Americans are "above" that type of activity. What crap. He would let 1,000 or more Americans die in another attack because we were too principled to torture the info out of that animal who planned 9/11. I would say that the government official that declined to torture someone for info that would prevent an attack should be prosecuted and jailed for dereliction of duty.

It is a choice between protecting American lives or the rights of terrorists who would be executed immediately by most other countries.

By the way, listening to Mancow is definitely torture.

Do you really think any kind of brutal torture would persuade a hardened terrorist to say anything? Islamic fundamentalists are adamant about their cause, they will willingly die for it. Maybe we should have a serious look at our policy and see what it is America does to encourage terrorism. Observe how its skyrocketed worldwide since 9/11 - someone's losing {{{{{{{{{EDITED & WARNED for language}}}}}}}}}} ground here.

and see what the memos show was gained from the so called "TORTURE" Crow is aweful hard swallow sometimes....

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..

GUN CONTROL Link

"...someone's losing f*****g ground here."

"Your, yore, you're all idiots." (T.Floyd)

"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Now that might not be a very great problem for those here who have little need or desire to actually HAVE a soul, but to the rest of us...Keep the faith.

Even a dead fish can go with the flow

Are you mowing yards around here?
-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

assuming the weather cooperates, Cy, my friend. all I lack is finishing up.

Even a dead fish can go with the flow.

how some people who will never have to worry about retribution are willing to expose our people, our soldiers, over there to even more danger through our use of torture. It just warms my heart that you, mudcat, are willing to take that chance. What a great American you are. It boils down to if you resort to their tactics then you are no better then they are.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Whether mudcat likes it or not, torture is an illegal war crime under domestic and international law. Various federal laws address torture, not the least of which is the Torture Act, 18 U.S.C. § 2340. There is also the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, which President Reagan signed. The Convention Against Torture expressly states that "just following orders" is no defense and that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever" will be considered. In his message to the Senate Reagan called the practice of torture “abhorrent”.

These laws were enacted precisely so that the civilized world has a legal mechanism to prosecute barbarians that engage in it. Mudcat's unprincipled position on torture is the same as Mugabe's and Pol Pots, denies the probability of similar retaliation against our troops and ignores the entire history of the United States on the matter up until the Bush administration.

I think I've linked this before for similar reasons, but I believe that the debate over waterboarding, etc., would benefit if parties to that debate would read this now classic piece by Thomas Nagel.

War and Massacre

Nagel wrote this in the wake of the My Lai massacre. He offers a criticism of utilitarian approaches to the morality of warfare and defends something like a Kantian respect-for-persons view. Whether one agrees or disagrees with his conclusions (which are a little disconcerting as he grants that there may be situations in which so muvch is at stake that our intuitions break down), the paper helps to set the parameters for the discussion and explores basic categories.

Whole Foods has a wonderful "Chocolate Torture Cake" that I wish someone would use aggressively on me in interrogation.

Our professional interrogators were specifically trained to distinguish between the two and instructed to stay on the right side. If one or more of them strayed, I do not believe it was resultant from a policy issue.

Our professional interrogators were specifically trained to distinguish between the two and instructed to stay on the right side. If one or more of them strayed, I do not believe it was resultant from a policy issue.

The following link is about what happened to a US soldier who was posing as an inmate at Gitmo, prior to even getting to an interrogation: U.S. Soldier Brutally Beaten By Soldiers At Guantanamo

The bar could not have been set any lower without digging a hole. There is no high road when torture is the modus operandi.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

CU, you take an unfortunate incident from 2003 and attempt to relate it to terrorists being interrogated. SPC Baker suffered a horrible mistaken identity beating that had nothing to do with interrogation. It was a bigtime screwup on the part of his superiors and the soldiers who inflicted his injuries. Yet he holds no grudges and if possible would return to active duty to continue serving. It's really a stretch to get from there to waterboarding known terrorists. No wonder it's hard being you.

It was not a case of mistaken identity, it was a case of treating someone the way that they thought a person in an orange jumpsuit should have been treated. An unfortunate incident, like that was not torture? I'll tell you what is the hardest part of being the carbonunit in this instance: trying to fathom the boundaries of the denial being used to justify the depravity of torture. I believe that I am closing in on an understanding of it though, and I believe the core justification (as mentioned by another blogger) is: "I just don't care".

It's not easy being the carbonunit

Oh yes, I think a person or persons should have been criminally prosecuted for their actions in this incident. It appears there was an intentional coverup. And I'm sure you'll have a comment--as soon as you get over your shock!

Who was Colin Powell's chief of staff during his term believes x Vice President Richard Cheney is the one person mostly responsible for the torture that has occurred in Iraq and other places.
An article from the Washington Note from Guest Post..Colonel Larry Wilkerson.

Cheney

The web site Washington note says article not found from the link above but if you do a google search and put in Colonel Larry Wilkerson+Cheney the article and others will come up. Also there is a good one on the web site The young Turks where Colonel Wilkerson talks on phone to the guy on The Young Turks web site...Col. Wilkerson talks way back in 2005 about Cheney and Rumsfield in an article in the Washington Post. That web site might also come up in the google search. Colonel Larry Wilkerson also says he is a Republican.