Well I don't fly for Delta and don't make nearly as much money at my airline, but I have nothing against them and their salary. If you have a problem with them making so much more than you, then you should have become a pilot. By the way, we are often away from home 250-300 hours a month, which is way more than the standard 40-hour week of most people. No, my layovers are not fun and usually only about 11 or 12 hours at the hotel at most. Flying the plane is not hard, but I get paid to make good decisions when it counts. When you have your line of 50 irate customers we might have a plane full of 200 with an engine fire or any other multitude of problems. I am a manager of a crew of people and everything associated with the flight. When there is a problem, no matter how big or small, it usually comes to me for a resolution. Sure, I wish the rampers, cleaners, etc...made more money, but do you honestly think they should be on the same payscale as someone with all the responsibility of making a flight happen safely and making the decisions? I value all the employees that help us operate efficiently, but that is the job that they chose and the salary is going to be lower than that of the pilots. Why is it that in this country we can't stand to see other people get wealthy?
quit whining

Thanks to the acumen and experience of that Airways pilot and his crew, all passengers on that flight are alive to tell the story. Bet there is not one survivor who would argue that his salary was too high! Special thanks also to all the brave people who aided in the rescue--firemen, policemen, tugboat personnel, water taxis and passengers etc. It is amazing how we can all come together when there is a situation like this. Makes me proud of my fellow human beings. And, too, we cannot dismiss the thought that many prayers were probably answered.

And from now on listen to the flight attendant(s) as they provide the preflight safety briefing.
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We aren't whining. Your pilot friend was. I don't think you completely read everything. Don't insult our intelligence. If you have engine fires on a daily basis, I ain't never flying with you again! Don't pedal that to other airline people. As for irate. Yes, they are a daily occurrence.

You are really off the reservation with your claim of flying 300 hours a month. I'm sure the FAA would like to know about that.

"FAA regulations limit flying time of airline pilots of large aircraft to a maximum of 100 hours a month or 1,000 hours a year. Most airline pilots fly an average of 65 to 75 hours a month and work at least an additional 65 to 75 hours a month performing nonflying duties. Most pilots have variable work schedules, working several days on, then several days off. Airlines operate flights at all hours of the day and night, so work schedules often are irregular. Flight assignments are based on seniority; the sooner pilots are hired, the stronger their bidding power is for preferred assignments.

Commercial pilots also may have irregular schedules, flying 30 hours one month and 90 hours the next. Because these pilots frequently have many nonflying responsibilities, they have much less free time than do airline pilots. Except for corporate flight department pilots, most commercial pilots do not remain away from home overnight. But, they may work odd hours. However, if the company owns a fleet of planes, pilots may fly a regular schedule."

Duty time for flight crewmembers is:

(§ 121.471)

(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;

(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;

(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(4) 8 hours between required rest periods

And for mechanics working at an air carrier

(§ 121.377)

Within the United States, each certificate holder (or person performing maintenance or preventive maintenance functions for it) shall relieve each person performing maintenance or preventive maintenance from duty for a period of at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days, or the equivalent thereof within any one calendar month.

Lets see, that does not prevent one from working a couple of 24 hour shifts non-stop.

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I know the FAR well, but I think BeachBear needed to see it. Maybe she needs to learn about the 16 hour duty day limit too. Try working a few of those and also maybe throw in an 8 hour layover or two.

It's about time that the Federal Government/FAA start looking at serious duty time limitations for those that maintain these aircraft. 121.377 is so out of date that is almost funny.
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Yeah, the NTSB has had Fatigue on their most wanted list for a while now. Maybe now that the FAA is in the hot seat we can actually get some changes to occur. I really couldn't believe the Air Traffic Controller's schedule during the Comair Lexington crash. And I don't want anyone that's fatigued to be performing maintenance on an airplane either.

Thanks for the FAR on monthly hour limits-I didn't know that!! I never said I FLY 300 hours a month-I said I'm routinely away from home 300 hours a month. Big difference in two ways. There's no FAR against being away from home on a layover and I don't get paid that 300 hours, I only get paid the 75 or 80 I'm actually flying. When I'm not flying and am away from home I get less than two dollars an hour and that is supposed to pay for my meals, tips, etc.... Who is off the reservation here? Don't attempt to quote FAR's unless you know what you're talking about. And as for the inflight emergencies...yes they do happen more often than you think-not necessarily engine fires, but there are tons of systems on aircraft that just don't work right sometimes. I'd like you to think of it this way-when you're in reservations if you make a mistake you still get to go home to your family that night. If I make a mistake it very well could mean I don't come home and none of the people that trust me with their lives do either. By the way,if a ramper or mechanic messes up in some way I still might not get to go home. You're comparing apples to oranges in terms of responsibility.
quit whining

time out of town and don't get paid for all of it too. What is your point? It is nothing to see some of these salesman leave on Monday and not come back till Thursday or Friday, on a weekly basis.

I've seen a lot of them that have to attend funtions out of town on the weekend as well.

Your arguments are tired and make no sense. Now you're comparing me to a traveling salesman. I was merely clarifying your confusion on FAA flight hour limitations vs. time away from domicile (which you evidently got off the internet somewhere). I suppose the difference between my wage and a traveling salesman is that most of them carry a corporate credit card and have all their expenses taken off of that or they are reimbursed 100%, not to mention the tax write off. The point is that for some reason people have a sense of entitlement about money. Just because this guy makes 100K a year I deserve that too is the attitude a lot of people seem to have. It shouldn't work that way. And yes, I worked very hard to get to where I am today-it was a long road that started at around $11,000/year with a student loan debt load of about 100,000 dollars. I'm only just now beginning to be able to live a comfortable lifestyle. I do this job because I like to fly and like the different scenarios I'm faced with everyday, but I should be compensated fairly for the danger inherent in the job, the stress level, time away from my family, etc... By the way, the numbers you guys keep quoting are for a senior 777 captain that is at the pinnacle of his or her career. A pilot may only see that wage for 3 or 4 years before retirement if ever.
quit whining

"Now you're comparing me to a traveling salesman."

Are you saying these salesman are below you?

They pay the bills my friend.

"I suppose the difference between my wage and a traveling salesman is that most of them carry a corporate credit card and have all their expenses taken off of that or they are reimbursed 100%, not to mention the tax write off."

They carry corporate cc s, yes. Your hotel is paid for by the company..same thing.

What the salesmen/our FFs/ charge on that card, it is looked at by their company...and paid, or denied, they pay it if the co thinks it is too much, or look for another job. You are given an out of town limits....so are they....you are splitting hairs.
They are out of town for 4 to 5 days a week. You may have an overnight...but your out of town time, or work hours, don't total theirs.
The company has the write off, and anything else he can write off...so can you...no where does the IRS exempt pilots from write offs if they are entitled.

"The point is that for some reason people have a sense of entitlement about money. Just because this guy makes 100K a year I deserve that too is the attitude a lot of people seem to have."

I think the whole issue is, your, 'feeling of entitlement' You, are whining.

You talk about all you do for the community, others do too, you talk about time away from home, others do too.

I know Dentist and MDS, that their ...idea...of a vacation..is to go to a 3rd world country on their vacations and fix cleft palette, deformed faces...etc.

I NEVER see them writing in the paper...poor me...everyone hates me and doesn't give me the respect I deserve.

There are others that very much out shine you in doing deeds much more heroic than yours and don't start blogs about no one respects me, no one loves me...poor me.

why?

Cause they really don't give a .... cause they know at the end of their life, they are pretty good people, even though they don't fly a plane!

" I do this job because I like to fly and like the different scenarios I'm faced with everyday, but I should be compensated fairly for the danger inherent in the job, the stress level, time away from my family, etc... "

quit whining? you tell us...? you are funny.

The real unsung heroes like the MDs and Dentist I mentioned....don't whine cause we don't sing their praises.....they are not they needy...! they know what they do!

Well firstly, I didn't write the blog. I felt compelled to comment because of your post. Secondly, my quit whining is a signature on all my posts because it applies to most things in PTC politics. No, I don't think I'm above a traveling salesman-but they do a different type of job than I do. Selling pharmaceuticals and flying a jet at 500 mph are two different things, just as cleaning the plane and flying a plane with a burning engine are. I'd like to think that I do some worthwhile things on the job. I take soldiers back home to their families safely, I take doctors to different cities to do surgery etc. Like someone else said, we all face hardships in life and it's not my intent to say that mine are any worse than yours or anyone elses because I know they probably are not. I suppose I'll never get through to you to change your mind. At any rate, we should all be mad at management for not charging for the price of a ticket enough money to cover the costs. Profits should not come from workers taking pay cuts and people not paying enough for a ticket. I do have a business degree and I'm pretty sure we learned that in business school, but I could be wrong. I tried to forget most of that.
quit whining

Charge for tickets what it takes to pay the employees, etc.?
Where did you go to business school?
You charge what the market will bear is the rule.
Employees can not be paid what they want by charging more for the service, only what the customer will pay! Eastern discovered that!

I notice you put yourself in as a "worker." Employee, would be better.

How can you take credit for flying a surgeon to an operation? That is one of the attitudes hard to understand.

By the way, I know a pharmaceutical salesman who leaves home in a car at 7:30 a, and get home at 6p, every day, except for the once a month overnight or weekend training sessions. Drives 70,000 miles per year!
Has numerous night meetings. Their fatigue isn't really safe for driving!!!

Well Mr. Sage, how can you make a profit off of a product if the consumer won't absorb the cost? Oh, I see, you have to get pay cuts from the employees. The thing is, consumers will still fly if you raise fares above the $99 from ATL-LAX that was common a few years ago. You must be an airline manager. I don't understand the quote about putting myself in as a "worker" employee would be better. What does that mean? Yes, I'm a "worker". How do I take credit for flying a surgeon to an operation? You didn't do it because you don't have the skill to, that's how. Yes, fatigue is bad for driving also. but 730 am to 6pm..that's not the same as 5am-9pm shifts that we sometimes see as flight crews. And yes, I am aware that our doctors are working crazy hours as well. Do you feel safe with them operating on you? I don't really.
quit whining

or are you putting on an act? You are the one who brought up the salesman and SLF was pointing out the differences in the positions. Same thing when he said he was away from home 300 hours--never said he flew 300 hours. The salesman chose his occupation just as the pilot chose his. Do you resent the salesman for having a business account to draw on? Did you choose your occupation, whatever it was (I am really curious about what that may be due to your postings!)and were you/are you happy with it? Have people constantly made slurring remarks about you as they have about pilots? Did they/do they continue nit-picking at you as you do the pilots? I never made nor will I ever make the salary a pilot makes. but neither will I make the salary of a lawyer, doctor or indian chief, but I am not envious and do not begrudge them their salaries. They worked for them, educated themselves at great time and expense to get to where they could draw those salaries. So what is your beef?? And don't say because they are whining. They only are rebutting all the nasty remarks that are constantly made about pilots and their spouses.

no one had said anything....you may want to note...this was ...his..blog..

My point is, he, you, none of the pilots are the only star in the sky, nor the brightess.

You are ...part of an overall system...not the most important part of it. Only a fool thinks they are the prettier, smarter, or more important than anyone else. I promise you, there is someone around the corner, that will beat you on all counts.

I don't really understand much of this post from you, but once again, I don't think I'm above anyone. We all just do different jobs. When i flew for a charter company I also cleaned the planes, catered the planes, handled price quotes at 2am etc...I know what it's like. Maybe you had a bad run-in with a pilot somewhere along the line and that's where you got this stereotype?

I went back and read the post stating you had worked for Delta. Were you asking for sympathy listing all the hardships you faced? Does that make you any better/ worse than the two pilots that stated what they encountered on their jobs? Everyone from the street cleaner to the man/woman in the White House could list all their trials and tribulations entailed in their job and each one would feel justified.
How do you know what these pilots do in their spare time? How do you know they don't offer their services and expertise to fly some of these dentists/doctors you speak of to their destinations? Maybe they coach underprivileged children-maybe they work at a food bank or maybe they spend that time at home being a good husband and father. And by the way what altruistic things have you done for your community lately? Just wondering.

This is my only and last post to you. First, you may want to see who started this blog and why. I thought it a bit self serving and said so.
As for me, I never said poor me. I said to transfer to the position I wanted, it was necessary, in the companies eyes, for myself and others, to do those jobs mentioned, that we were ill equipped to do. I was terrible on the ramp, scared and cold. Not to mention I felt I wasn't big enough to pull my weight. My point was, by being put through those departments I came away with a knowledge and respect for what those people do, and please believe me, I don't want to ever do it again.

They are all good, hard working people, who do a thankless job. The people who work inside take abuse daily and remain composed and compassionate. All these people have good traits. While you make think that your pilot friends should be the next king or president, most don't share your views. I have nothing against them, nor do I see any need thing to slober all over them like you do.

My heroes are the people like the denist and MDs I mentioned.. or the guy who is late to work cause he stopped to fix your flat tire. My heroes are ...not...people who write blogs about why one loves them.

Your beating a dead horse. For the last 18 (out of 28) years I worked reroute and aircrew records and have heard every "poor ole me" story that you can think of. I guess it's the fact that these guys are CONSTANTLY flying around with "engines on fire!" that they really lose scope of the real world. Go with the flow......give them praise, feel their pain! It will make them happy and the world will be a better place.

Well, again highflyer (maybe you had aspirations of being a pilot), you make a screw up in reroute or aircrew records you get to go home to your family. It's not quite the same type of pressure. I'm not on a high horse-I appreciate what you do-except for rerouting me around on a day off. Maybe you had to talk to grumpy folks after assigning them a re-route. That's understandable. Maybe you should appreciate what we do. Why can't we have mutual respect? Because pilots make more money?

I'll give you PRESSURE! Try rerouting a pilot into a trip that is 2 minutes over his "contractual" time! (not FAR). You would think that I crashed a 747 into the side of the Empire State Building! Aspirations of being a pilot? I think and old friend ( Harry Chafin) once sung......."She was going to be an actress and I was going to learn to fly....I get high so high when I'm stoned".
It's all good, don't sweat the small stuff.

It's time to move on.

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This is getting ridiculous and I guess you can't change people's minds that easily. I know there are pilots that are bad apples out there like in any occupation, but there seems to be this stereotype we can't overcome. Maybe it's from the confidence you have to have in this field. I'm not sure, but I have better things to do-like get ready to leave on my 4-day trip. So long everyone.
quit whining

is Dr Doughtery, here in Fayetteville. I respect him very much, and when he talks about it, you can tell he..wanted..to fix more kids on his 'vacation' and that he has 'unfinished business' in those places, because he wants to help more.

There are several plastic surgeons in ATL that do this, and I've put ole Jimmy Carter on planes to South America with his cronies to go build something..the man is dead with old age and if he fell of something he would croak...he is way past wanting recognition, but he does it cause he wants to...

It isn't about wages or hours worked. Never has been.

It is about too much pride! No one needs to know by you of your success.

If it applies to you!

Bravo!!!

Two different entities---one with a union who was allowed to go too far at one time.

Still, most of them are good folks.

Wow, some nasty stuff. Did I personally offend any of you? I am not sure I have ever met you so I can't possibly know why you hold me in such disregard. Oh, that's right, I'm a pilot! Well, My bad.

First off, highflyer2, your comment that why I served my country was "BS" is totally out of line. You don't know me. You have never taken the time to know me. You don't know anything about me. Is your son in Iraq for any other reason than "serving his country?"
You see, you and the others embrace such anger and hatred. Why? I don't get paid "more than the President." The President makes $400,000 per year PLUS perks. I assure you I do not, nor did I ever make anywhere near that amount. So if you are going to spout off, get your facts strait.

I didn't get a "million dollar bonus." Apparently you have me confused with our management team. I didn't get anywhere near that. I did get some money back from my lost retirement, but nowhere near what you seem to think. If you are going to spout off, get your facts straight.

As for "getting paid" to land that plane. That's true. I also have the experience, skills, knowledge, and ability to do so. That is what I have honed over the last 30 years. For some reason you see that as a "bad thing."

I have never been an "arrogant pilot." If you knew me you would know that. But you have no interest in knowing me, do you?

As for the others, I am tired of being bashed for no reason. I don't profess to know your motivation, but I am tired of it. That is why I am lashing out. Maybe you are jealous. Maybe you tried to get hired and didn't. But to laugh and hope and revel in the demise of someone else's career is just plain vicious. I hold you no ill will. I hope you are successful in your lives. But please, could you explain why you hold me responsible for your downfall? Actually DON'T. I don't really care anymore. I have no desire to continue this absurd line of conversation with people who lump everyone into one basket and proceed to attack them. I don't like bigots of any type, and your unreasonable, bigoted, and hateful comments make you insignificant to me.

Seek help!

Are you still talking about how everyone hates "Delta Pilots?" If you are you have a problem.

If truth be known I would think you would like to work as a team instead of "ME THE PILOT". The other people that work for Delta or any other air carrier work hard also. Do people hate them also?

To be honest with you I have 2 neighbors that are pilots and even after 9-11 all they did was talk about how much money I don't make. Sorry, but what about what about all the other positions? They work hard also. They deserve more money also. I would say be happy you have a job and please don't try and take away the little people job because you think you deserve more money.

Jealous? Where did that come from? I'm not jealous, I just think people should be treated with respect in what ever job they do even if it is working for McDonald's. BTW- No I don't work there. I do make it a habit to say thank you when they serve my food.

After 9-11 Pilots were thinking about putting all the little misfits under them jobs on the line. Do you think I am jealous of that also? No thank you. I am not jealous of that at all. BTW you don't work near as much as the President does so I know you don't get that kind of pay that he does.

I just know I have friends that work in the airlines who thought they would not have a job because the pilots wanted to call what everyone should do after 9-11. Sorry, my friends do need their job regardless of what they get paid. Maybe you don't, they do.

Some of my friends went to other jobs, others went to school at night to change job positions and they have left Delta. They did need their job. Some of my friends are still at Delta.

FYI I respect EVERYONE that work for air carriers, oh and btw the ones you forget the air traffic control people. How about a little 'that a boy' or girl for that matter.

I just want to know what is all this you are all upset over people hating "Delta Pilots and where did that come from?

Do I hate my neighbors that are pilots, NO. We get along fine. Yes, they do know how I feel about the situation. I do wish everyone would see this as team work instead of they hate me because I make so much money.

I don't care how much money you make. BTW is that why you are complaining still not enough money for you?

Well, if you want more money run for the President. The goof offs we have running is a joke.

I don't believe for one minute that all "Delta Pilots" are arrogant. I fly different air carriers, Delta at times and the pilots were great. Other air carriers the same. I think you should be a team.

Thank you for you service for me birdman. I do appreciate you getting me to the place I am going and I am safe with you as a pilot.

Please let me know what is the big deal about being jealous of "Delta Pilots?"

Please tell me why you think "Delta Pilots" are hated?

BTW would you hate me if you knew my job and how much I make? Who knows I could make more than you.

Have a happy life. It goes by fast. To me money is not the issue.

I feel as you do. There are a lot of good hard working people at Delta. Most go unnoticed and underpaid.

I will do for all the ones that might be interested. I will get a current A.L.P.A./Delta Pilot contract and show all the "in's and out's" of how the airline industry works. And my bad, I just checked and now see that after the "concessions" a 777 Capt. now just makes a tad over $265,000 a year.
So let me get this straight, are you saying that before bad times that the average Capt. at retirement DIDN'T get an option buyout that came close to one million dollars? Now remember, I DO have my facts straight.
Don't get me wrong, many of my friends are pilots and I have coached with a few over the years, and yes it does make one bad apple to make the rest look bad. But when you say that your group gave up MORE than the rest of us did.......YOU ARE A BALD FACE LIER!
What was taken from us, we will NEVER get back! And when the first pay cut came for us, it wasn't before the company had gave us a 24% pay raise like they had the pilots group. I can go on and on but what is the use? Who really cares anymore? Not me, I have NEVER went back through those gates since I left and guess what?
There IS life after DELTA!

In another life time, I dated a few. Most of the time vowing never to fool with another one. The last one I bit in to was an International captain and memory serves me right, his salary was in the neighborhood of $360, not $265. I know that because they could only hold it in so long and then they would give you the unwanted sermon about how much they made, how much their ex wives were stealing from them. When you are standing there barely making ends meet, most of you money going to day care, and getting late, small,sporatic child support payments, you just can't feel their pain. I wasn't jealous, but hearing them would only make my circumstances more glaring to me, and I just couldn't listen any more. After my eyes glazed over for the thousandth time in a blank stare trying to tune them out, I would just decide I couldn't be around them anymore.

I was told that the salary was cut again after the bankrupt deal. But I do know what your talking about. Back in the 90's I was very good friends with the chief pilot in Mia. The first year of "7.5" I was talking to him about how hard it was taking the pay cut and having to get a second job. In his most sincere voice he proceeded to tell me how bad his "stocks" were doing ! I guess in his mind he was bringing himself down to my level of hurt. I'm really not bashing them or any other "rich folfs". It's just that they don't understand us lower class people and "our problems".
BTW........Great article!

No 777 captain is making 265,000 at Delta now. You may not know, but during BK Delta took another bite from all employees. After all was said and done, the company took a total of 43% from the payrates that were in place before 2006.

Before the company terminated the Delta pilot's retirement plan, pilots had the option to take their retirement as an annuity, or 50% lump sum and the rest in an annuity. If a pilot had been with DAL for over 25 years, that lump sum would be in the 1 million dollar range.

As to your 24% reference, I believe you are talking about 2004, when the company began asking ALPA for the first 32% paycut. ALPA said no and the two entities went back and forth, during which time a contractual raise went into effect. I'll assure you, it wasn't 24%, not in my check anyway.

I'm not going to argue about who lost the most during DAL's trip though BK. It serves no purpose, but some of your FACTS are not correct.

I left before BK and really didn't keep up with anything after that. Thanks for the info though. The only thing that really ticked me off was when he said that the pilot group took their big hit to "save" the rest of us. I CAN tell you for a fact that ALPA didn't lose any sleep over the rest of the Delta clan. 28 years ago Delta was the best Airline to fly and work for. Bottom line........not now.

...with you Delta used to be the best airline. I have no doubt as I have met many former employees who get sentimental when talking about "the good old days." It is no longer the best place to work. Most have left for greener pastures and couldn't be happier.

As for ALPA saving the airline, that is simply an opinion. One that is in the eye of the beholder.

I applaud the fact you were able to leave DAL behind, there is something about this stupid industry that gets in your blood. It's hard to let go.

I did't bash you.
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I think Birdman needs some Mydol. What do you think?

Midol...

I am involved only with Delta employees and pilots in so far as I once owned a local business and dealt with the public.
I think some Delta pilots are resented for various reasons, but they have little to do with any military service they may have served (many of us did that), nor not very much to do with how much money and benefits they made. Belonging to a union at their salary and benefits does also gall some. As to making less now than before, well it is either that or EASTERN, it appears.
There definitely is a great distinction made between pilots and other employees also. That is not so much true in most industries. It does cause dissent, however.
I attribute that to many having served in the military as officers where distinction is great and enforced due to necessity in some military situations.
And, some do have the need (family) and all to let merchants, other workers, tow officials, etc., know distinctly and quickly what they do for a living. They will threaten to buy out of town!
That is not appreciated either.
Really wealthy people and classy acts don't do that at all. In fact they avoid it if possible.
Having said all that, I'm afraid only a FEW of Delta Pilots and higher management people are causing the misunderstandings. Many of them are just as humble, civic minded, generous, and raising their children in the same way, as most others.
Since we have such an accumulation here, as opposed to the average town, of well off income people (not rich, mostly, big incomes) it means we will have more jackasses than normal.
I can however appreciate the attention and concentration it requires to successfully fly an airplane with hundreds of passengers. The fact that most of them like it and are paid well doesn't deter from that fact.
I have flown with military aviators and I know how they are. Thank goodness for them. John McCain is an excellent example.

Yeah. Don't make the driver mad!
But you know, flying is safer than driving!
Maybe we need to pay drivers' more money? Of course they would have to be regulated as to physicals, drinking, training, etc.
Also, flying and driving is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get!

Lawyers are hated for having endured undergrad, law school, the bar, and they are especially hated when very successful. I figure, if we are sharing enemies with such driven and successful people, we can't be doing that badly. Congrats on the legacy you have shared! That's awesome. What does your boy drive around? solo, tandem, or group aviation activity?

Cheers,

Kevin "Hack" King

Thanks. My son is currently a RAG instructor in the F/A 18 SuperHornet.
He did 2 WestPac cruises in his previous squadron. I am very proud of him. He is a great pilot and, ironically, very humble. I know that we pilots have always had a bad rep around here. It screams in the answers to my blog. To be truthful, I have never seen myself as "superior" because of my service or my profession. But I am dismayed that so many in our community revel in our downfall. I don't get why someone else would take glee in the demise of any profession. My son is a great example. He will spend a career in the Navy. He sees no future in the airlines. Unfortunately the airlines will lose a great pilot. I am NOT in anyway trying to diminish from those who choose to go into an airline career, but the airlines no longer attracts many great pilots.

Anyway, I had the pleasure of riding the USS Lincoln from Hawaii to San Diego a few years ago with my son. These sailors are our finest. Their dedication to country and the Navy can not be surpassed. I was very proud of all of them. They are the hope for our country.

Downfall is when they outsource your job. Has that occur for the pilots?
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...just not in the manner the American public is accustomed to. A large amount of domestic flying has been "outsourced" to regional airlines (ASA, Comair, Skywest, et.al) It's the same as outsourcing jobs to other countries, however it is other Americans willing to do the job for less. I'm not faulting people for working for regional airlines, I did myself, as it is one of the best ways to acquire the experience necessary to gain employment with one of the legacy carriers, but it is outsourcing nonetheless. It has occurred at every large airline over the last 10 years. The lower wages paid by regional airlines (newhires start at poverty level wages) that have helped to pressure lower wages across the industry, including ALL air carriers.

Jobs have been lost to regional airlines from all aspects of Delta's business. Outsourcing has occurred at every level of the air carrier industry. If outsourcing is your definition of a downfall, a high percentage of Delta jobs have been outsourced.

Ah OK. Im curious, isn't ASA and Comair represnted by ALPA.
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ASA, Comair and other Delta Connection carrier pilots. It is a HUGE point of contention within the pilot ranks at every ALPA carrier, something about a conflict of interest. But that goes into union politics. I don't have the time nor the inclination to go into that debate.

My original point was that jobs across the industry, (pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, ground personnel) have been lost to the regional airline industry. I was just responding to your point that if a "downfall" includes outsourcing, then ALL legacy carrier employees have been victims.

I continue to see the word "legacy" airline.
Delta, I think, considers itself one, but newer, smaller airlines are not, so they so.
A legacy is something handed down, but it can be just as bad as it is good!
It never automatically is better.

I should ask "Birdman" what he meant by "downfall".

Yes it is a very sore issue within ALPA; almost like a turf war. It is something that ALPA is going to have to face sooner or later and at the same time trying to maintain the peace within the ranks. I wish them well.

Outsourcing is a very troubling issue facing all of us in the biz. I'm not sure I'll go to extremes like Birdman and associate cabotage specifically 4 and 5 freedoms rights as the possible future but, who knows. I think that avenue would disrupt CRAF too much.

One thing, it's not just with the regional air carriers. Outsourcing encompasses all elements of the biz from which work can be sent anywhere and anyplace. One day, it can become almost a virtual business where there is no allegiance other than someone giving you a nondescript check and telling you go work that gate or go fly that airplane. I hope to retire by then.
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Maybe you can explain to me why pilots, making the salary they do after a few years, need a union to protect them?
I worked in Industry for 30 years at one time in my life, with and without unions, and it was a bad thing for highly paid or management people to belong to the union.
Not only that, but due to the high wages, most pilots are republicans, hoping for tax cuts. It is not normal for republicans to favor labor unions!
Can you explain the difference for me?
By the way unions were needed in the robber baron days, but not so much now.

It's called collective bargaining. But ALPA is a little more than that as they do have a role in air transportation safety.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Not exactly, but McCain will see to it that they are. He is a great supporter of cabotage which will allow foreign airlines (subsidised by their governments) to fly point to point in the US. That effectively will be "outsourcing," and most likely put US Airlines out of business (won't that make some of you giddy with glee).

Question from your comment. Are we bad because we picked a job hard to outsource? I can only infer that we are "overpaid and underworked" in your eyes. Maybe this conversation will make more sense if I understand exactly what I should get paid. Here were my qualifications when I was hired. Master's Degree, 2700 multi-engine military flight hours, Flight Examiner, Military Flight Instructor. It took me 12 years to accumulate that time and those qualifications. And let's not diminish the civilian route, they spend 7 to 10 years flying in every aspect they can to build the time. Earning very low salaries.
What should a pilot be paid? Maybe you and others could weigh in on that and we'll see where it takes us.

Are you the pilot who is became a Republican and is now running against Representative John Yates? The same pilot whose wife is the webmaster for the Democrat Party? The same pilot whose wife gave Obama $500 while her pilot husband masquerades as a Republican? Just curious.

On the other issue. Thanks for the fine job you do. In my books a good pilot is one that is around for the next flight. Just lose the 'big head' and stop walking around singing that song "Oh Lord, It's Hard To Be Humble.... When Your Perfect In Every Waaaayyy!". You might just find the 'little people' or 'cattle' that you haul around every day a bit more appreciative of who you are.

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"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY

no body ever says it better

Absolutely NOT. I am not that person. I don't see me as qualified to run for office for a variety of reasons.

I don't have a "big head." Anyone who knows me knows that. I don't see me a "perfect" in any way. I just am saddened that too many people judge me and most others by the actions of a few. I am tired of being blamed by all for everything that happens at Delta and what happens in Fayette County. I really think that people should hope and pray for the success of all our citizens. That is what will strengthen the economy and lead to improvements for ourselves and our community.

A good example is what happened to the pilots. We were highly paid and spent that money supporting local businesses. As our pay and benefits eroded, we cut our discretionary spending. I don't understand why some of our local citizens saw this in a "good" way. It certainly has hurt businesses, home prices, volunteerism, etc.

Sorry, just don't get why we are so vilified. Other than the actions of some, what about the rest? Are we to judge all by the actions of a few?

I also don't see passengers as "little people" or "cattle." I see them as my "bread and butter." I do all I can to make their flight on my airplane safe, comfortable, and enjoyable. Not a lot I can do, but I try. You see, if they enjoy the flight they'll come back. If they come back our company will succeed. If our company succeeds I will succeed. If I succeed I'll spend money in our community and you will succeed.

Make sense?

Absolutely NOT. I am not that person. I don't see me as qualified to run for office for a variety of reasons.

Oh... Cool. I was just asking?

Hey... as far as defending your pay to me... don't. I'm not jealous of what you make. I say good for you.

I also don't see passengers as "little people" or "cattle." I see them as my "bread and butter." I do all I can to make their flight on my airplane safe, comfortable, and enjoyable. Not a lot I can do, but I try. You see, if they enjoy the flight they'll come back. If they come back our company will succeed. If our company succeeds I will succeed. If I succeed I'll spend money in our community and you will succeed.

Great attitude. You display the attitude that most of the pilots I know have. Cept there are a few I've run across that do deserve the mockery they get. One of them ran against Dan Lakly years ago. He's the same one that told me the Constitution was over rated. Yikes, but that's another story.....

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"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY

The Pilots should be paid according to our market economy. In these times, Pilots deserve no more than Greyhound Bus Drivers.

Actually we are paid according to the market economy. If you pay what Bus Drivers get paid, you get the educational and experience level of Bus Drivers. That is not to impune that worthy and important occupation, but it doesn't take years and thousands of hours of experience to drive a bus. If a bus engine fails you simply role to the side of the road and call for help. Not so with an airplane.
But you know that. You're simply egging me on aren't you? Really now, do you really want the level of pilot that a bus drivers salary will attract?

I love Delta. Done wonders for the Southside. Its just that some pilots are just egocentric. The poster is right--- you guys and ALPA took care of yourselves and no one else. Hey, about your lofty education--- how come it didn't come with spelling and grammar. How about just learing how to operate spellcheck ?

I've got to scoot but I will respond in depth later. I'm not going tell you about my education other than I have this sheep skin on the wall.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

I've got to go too. Need to fly my one day per month with my feet up eating steak and lobster while collecting my $400,000 per year salary.

Please note that I didn't list my quals as anything other than to show what it took to get hired by an airlines. Only to demonstrate that I worked very hard to accomplish those goals. My point (and what I would like you to respond to) is "what should I get paid" based on experience, education, and other qualifications.
Fair question?

Will look for your response.

Your quals are indeed impressive however, getting back to the compensation package; that was negotiated between your MEC/ALPA and Delta Air Lines.

As I stated in my earlier post ALPA, like other large industry unions, will attempt to ratchet up the compensation packages for its constitutes through pattern bargaining. Your current compensation package is a result of this exercise. And yes, your MEC (with ALPA's HQ blessings) passed to the rank and file a ballot to concerning compensation reduction in an effort reduce cash hemorrhaging.

With that said, nobody on this blog, me included, can tell you what you are worth. However, we are all consumers and as such, some goods and services are very elastic. So all parties have to be sensitive as to pricing.

Finally, I don't hate you or your group. Life is too short hate. However, I would be liar to tell you I don't envy the pilots and their bargaining strength and resulting compensation package. I think a lot of others do as well. BTW, with 30 years of service you should be close to retirement. I hope the the drought is over so that you can get to experience a water cannon salute on you last flight.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

I AM NOT A PILOT OR PILOT'S WIFE---

I was the wife of an Eastern mechanic so am somewhat familiar with the airline family.

I cannot understand the rancor I see towards pilots and their wives. Just about anyone out there has had the same opportunity to become a pilot, whether by paying your dues while serving your country or by going to flight schools at ther own expense. What is wrong for wanting the best salary and benefits you can obtain? Why not show your anger and disdain for the corporate 'hogs' that come in for a few years and desert the airline with huge golden parachutes after a hefty salary and benefits for a short period of time? Many pilots put in many years of grueling schedules flying to Podunk airports on smaller aircraft before achieving the benefits some of you mention (and some of you blow way out of proportion.)

Sure, some and/or their wives are arrogant, sure some may demand special treatment-but that is not only the situation with pilots and their families. I know people in many walks of life who are arrogant and feel they deserve special attention and or discounts. I also know pilots and their families who are kind, giving, everyday people just like the majority of us.

I would like for any of you hate-filled bloggers to search your soul and truthfully admit if you would not accept the very best offer you could get for the work you do. If you are so altruistic that you are willing to work at the bottom of your pay scale, even after 20, 25, thirty years in your profession, please submit your name and I will nominate your for sainthood.