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Reply to Muddle from Hack

Once again the Navy pulls the Air Forces chestnuts out of the fire...

For Muddle:

Muddle, thanks for valuing my opinion enough to ask me this question concerning opposition to torture. Speaking only for myself, my opposition to torture of anyone (US citizens in the penal system, gang members, uniformed and non uniformed combatants, etc) is based on two principles: The inherent since of right and wrong, and the golden rule of "do unto others." First, the fundamental sense of right versus wrong: When we inflict physical pain on someone to attempt to coerce information, to gain retaliation, or to send a "signal" in attempts to intimidate a certain group (as radical Sunni and Shiites have been treating one another in Iraq), we lose our humanity; both the torturer and torturee. We devalue life. It is a very slippery slope that, in other cultures, has devolved into harsher and harsher forms of torture (reference Jeff C's links), torturing of family members or friends if a subject is personally able to withstand extreme amounts of pain, and more less imaginable atrocities. Much of the pride behind my cheesy grin when I hear the National Anthem, Reveille in the morning, or Taps at night, has to do with the fact that I feel the U.S. is a special nation with a love for freedom and life itself that is rare in the world. I believe we have no true idea of how insidiously we can lose these high moral standards. And I fear our national policies in this area may have sacrificed much more of this moral high ground than we are aware of.

Gary Michael Hilton is a despicable human being who is not worth the air he consumes. I had thought early on if I personally would torture him to attempt to find out where Miss Emerson was, but there is no way I could justify this. It would be an insult to Meredith's memory. It would make the torturer something that I believe no man truly wants to become. It would only bring satisfaction at a base, primordial level, but, I believe, would cause psychological damage to both subject and executor.

Finally, the Golden Rule: Those that make policy are typically never subject to the effects and repercussions of those policies. If our legislators, for example, authorized torture of any enemy combatant for a wide number of reasons, those legislators would never have to concern themselves with quid pro quo. We should value our soldier's lives enough to always, under every circumstance, deem torture illegal. That is the only way we could continue to prosecute those who torture our soldiers long after a conflict ends. There would be no loophole, no statute of limitations, no gray area to hide behind should anyone or any group subject our men and women to torture. The sad news is, the minute we allowed rendition and torture (also known as aggressive interrogation) to become our unofficial policies, we surrendered any ability to cry foul when any of our soldiers or citizens are rendered abroad or aggressively interrogated. I believe the future will enlighten many Americans to the gravity of this dilemma we have created.

Cheers,

Hack

hutch866's blog | login to post comments

Well said, Hack, torture is not the answer

Submitted by other side trax on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 2:39pm.

Agree with you completely. Our strength lies in maintaining the moral high ground regardless of the atrocities that befall us. Torture is beneath us.
But then, what is the answer to our current struggles in the Middle East? What is the best response when faced with such barbarism?
I believe we must transition from the military option, to other options. And the best long-term weapon we have against Islamic extremists is information. Not propaganda. Just information. In part, that is what brought down the Berlin Wall (supported of course, by Reagan's military build-up). We must leverage information to educate and expand the horizons of all peoples yearning to breathe free. Iraqis can learn to favor inclusivity and power sharing over tribalism, given enough time. But it will take generations. Problem is, the American people have shown no patience for the long war. The ultimate solution will not be wrought by our military. But our military has provided a valuable stepping stone. A stepping stone of time. But the hourglass runs low. A precipitous pull-out is not the answer. Because that stepping stone will be squandered. And it will leave a Vietnam-like taste in our mouths that not even my favorite scotch will remedy.
There is a very good reason Bush senior chose NOT to press on to Baghdad during ODS. He knew that if the Iraqi regime was toppled, it would set up Iran as the regional hegemon (power). And guess who is doing all of the sabre-rattling right now? Iran sees this as an historic opportunity. So we cannot simply vacate the area, leave the Iraqi people entirely to their own devices, and hope for the best. I believe the result would be catastrophic. Hope is not a method. Abandonment is not a plan. Isolationism, as the world grows smaller each day, is not an option. As 9/11 proved, we are “touchable”.
And in the future, especially as the world’s lone superpower, we must only use the military card as a last resort. Because when we use it, we essentially admit that all other options have failed, and our nation becomes an international pariah (unless we have broad global support for the action).
Today, we need leaders with a fresh vision for what is possible. Who will lead? I don’t know. In the meantime, I’m praying we can find the right path out of this mess we’re in. Until then, may God bless this great nation of ours!!!

From the other side of the tracks

Excellent points, Trax

Submitted by River on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 8:25pm.

You're right that we can't just abruptly pull out of Iraq at this point. I also agree about the wisdom of Bush Sr. stopping short of toppling Iraq. It's a tragedy that Bush Jr. wasn't as wise as his father.

One thing I would like to add about the fall of the Soviet Union. It wasn't just information, nor the Reagan buildup, although those were definitely important factors. It was also the fact that they let themselves get bogged down in Afghanistan, and it bled them dry. Our current situation in Iraq is very analogous. Hopefully, we will extract ourselves before it bleeds us dry. You are right about transitioning versus abandoning. As for the exact way to do that, I think nobody on this website really knows--there's no obvious "sure-thing" solution. I don't think you are being pessimistic, just realistic.

A grim analysis, Trax

Submitted by sniffles5 on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 3:55pm.

A grim analysis there, Trax. Might be a tad pessimistic.

My feeling is in the best-case scenario right now the American forces should be replaced by a pan-Arabic force. I don't think the UN can help here. The problem with a pan-Arabic force is it opens the door for meddling countries such as Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon to inject their own little intrigues into Iraq.

Ironically, the "glue" holding the country of Iraq together right now in my opinion is the universal loathing of the American occupation force. Once we leave there may be a temporary intense flareup in violence....but maybe not. I was heartened by the relatively peaceful transition made when the British pulled out of Iraq.

The so-called "surge" had a huge unintended consequence: It provided a framework for the Shi'ites to conduct an orderly horrific ethnic cleansing of their former Sunni masters from the city of Baghdad. Neither the US or the Iraqis want to talk about it, but the great unreported story of 2007 was the 2 million or so people, the vast majority of the Sunni religion, who left Iraq for refugee status in Jordan and Syria. Those left behind often met with death and destruction. What's done is done, though.

You said information was a key transformation agent in Iraq and Iran and I agree with you. However, it is not the only transformation agent. There is also the economic power of American capitalism. Few people remember that as late as the year 2000 Iran was on the cusp of becoming a liberal nation (by Arab standards, anyway). A whole generation had grown up "Shah-free" and American goods and culture were seeping into the country. The younger generation embraced capitalism with a vengeance.

George W. Bush destroyed all that.

His ill-considered remarks about Iran being part of an "axis of evil" scared the heck out of the everyday Iraqi. Think about it: the world's lone superpower just served notice that you were "evil" and the presumption was that they were going to come after you.

Well, the people immediately turned to the mullahs and the religious authorities, electing hard-line theocrats who promised to protect them (all the while stripping them of their rights). Not unlike the Republican party circa 2001-2003.

We reaping the whirlwind of the animosity we have sowed, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

The next 3-5 years in the Middle East will be very interesting to watch...obviously, nothing substantive will be accomplished in the last year of Bush's term, but the next president, be he (or she) Democratic or Republican, will have his (or her) hands full.

Agree Sniffles, info is not the only answer

Submitted by other side trax on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 4:49pm.

But I'm not so sure Bush's "axis of evil" comment really had the impact you assert.
If you'd like to read a truly brilliany in depth analysis of where we are, check out the 20 or so page highlights of Dr Steven Metz monograph (77 pages) on ReThinking Insurgency. The highlight version is a very worthwhile 10 min read. It is evolutionary in thought.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/07winter/metz.pdf

From the other side of the tracks

Hack: Great Reply

Submitted by muddle on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 1:09pm.

I especially like this:

Much of the pride behind my cheesy grin when I hear the National Anthem, Reveille in the morning, or Taps at night, has to do with the fact that I feel the U.S. is a special nation with a love for freedom and life itself that is rare in the world.

Question for Hack

Submitted by thebeaver on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:51pm.

Please define "The inherent since of right and wrong"

-----------------------------------------------------------------
“...the term “democrat” originated as an epithet and referred to ‘one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses.’”

the beaver

Submitted by kevin king on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 12:20pm.

Answer: Something you may never truly understand.

Typical Hack

Submitted by thebeaver on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 12:49pm.

Can't answer a staightforward question.

“...the term “democrat” originated as an epithet and referred to ‘one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses.’”

Alright beaver; straight fwd answer

Submitted by kevin king on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 12:56pm.

I have given up on meaningful conversation with you. Almost every post you make; every blog; each thread; almost all of your comments are designed to fuel racial tension and hatred towards black skin and the black male in particular. You focus on a black burglar and ignore the white murderer in the Ga mountains. You rail on black colleges and the NAACP, but you never mention Arian Nation, KKK, etc. You are a one track man, and I can't "go there" with you anymore. If you, one day, offer solutions to the problem of South Fulton blacks and all of the crime they bring (in your opinion), I'll be all ears for that solution. Until then, I can't roll around in the racially tainted waters with you anymore.

Cheers,

Kevin "Hack" King

Hack/Beaver

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 9:56pm.

Hack - I'm going to join you on this one. We all need to search for solutions - the problem is well known. Racism is a sore that needs to be healed. We all need to determine what we have in common - rather than what 'may' separate us - ESPECIALLY IF ONE BELIEVES THAT COLOR IS THE FACTOR THAT MAKES ONE SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER. Have a nice life Beaver - and God bless.

Dave's Mom

Submitted by thebeaver on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 10:49am.

I have lived in Fayetteville for a long time, after having been pushed out of Riverdale due to the high crime rate. I see Fayetteville slowly but surely sinking into the same rathole that Riverdale is now in, and it frustrates the he** out of me because I love this great city.

Gang "tags" were recently painted on fences in my neighborhood for the first time, and it was very disturbing to the entire community. Now, you have to look at who is comitting the majority of the crime and profile the perpetrators. Are the Asian gangs in Fayette? no. Are there white gangs in Fayette? no.

We need to profile who is causing the increase in crime and address it. If you fail to see the increase in crime and who is the main perpetrator of that crime, then you are walking around with blinders on. I refuse to do that. I am walking with my eyes wide open and have armed my home to protect my family. It is a shame that it has come to that, I would rather not have to own a firearm. However the increase in crime in the area has left me with no choice.

-------------------------------------------------------
“...the term “democrat” originated as an epithet and referred to ‘one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses.’”

This whole thing is caustic...

Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:09pm.

and needs to stop.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Good Evening Cyclist

Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:17pm.

Yes, this is very tiring from both sides.

Gotta go, some of us have to work.

sky,

Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:19pm.

You shouldn't have picked up the phone.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:28pm.

The sad thing is this is one of my regular days to work.

sky,

Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:32pm.

I'm sorry. Going to work to at this time of night ain't regular. I did it for a while in my younger days at the airline. Never again!!! Have a good one. I'll be in DFW tomorrow.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:46pm.

For work??

Shift work is tough at our age. How is all the traveling? I think that would be tough too.

I just hope the market bounces back so I can retire.

sky,

Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:51pm.

Yep. Doing some training. After that I'm in Tel Aviv for a week. Traveling is OK, it kind of breaks things up a little. Yeah chuckle - stock. I lost a bunch in the last few weeks. Retirement is a dream which I hope to see.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Cy: Netanya

Submitted by muddle on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 9:47pm.

I have good memories of standing on the beach on the Mediterranean and looking at a full moon over the sea. We stayed at a hotel in Netanya.

Cyclist

Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 10:56pm.

Tel Aviv? Wow, those long flights wear me out. Don't follow the TSP guy. The guys I work with have been doing that. I have divided everything up, and not that I'm better off, but we are about the same. The bonus is, I didn't go through the stressful "day trading" they have been doing.

Sky - About Kbets

Submitted by BPR on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 8:17am.

Do you know what kbets name is, relative- I tried to look it up to see if they had passed? Have you heard anything- long time to be in a coma?

_______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"

bpr and Calling kbets

Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 6:26pm.

I don't know.

kbets if you read this some of us are worried and wondering how your uncle is doing??

bpr, I think when the burns are that bad the drs. induce a coma because 3rd degree burns are so painful. I'm not sure, I hope he is doing ok.

Have a good night.

sky,

Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 11:03pm.

Yeah my 401K is diversified enough. However, I took a big hit as the company was matching us in stock rather than money and that stock went "poof".

BTW, I'm still working to get on at the FSDO as an ASI. I'll see how that pans out. You have a good evening, well I guess an early morning.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Not to remove all doubt, but...

Submitted by yardman5508 on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 7:16pm.

What does FSDO stand for and ASI? Just wondering. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

You Really, Really Old Guys Need To....

Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 11:45pm.

You Really, Really Old Guys Need To 'tighten up' and get with the program. There are 90 year old women out there that work harder and whine less than you two. Now Sky, crawl back down into your moldy hole and git to work. Cy, grab your beanie and git ready to go to Israel and do your job. Be a man about this.

Just kidding guys. How did you like my $NitPickerSmith$ imitation? Thought I'd shout howdy your way. Cy, when you're over in Israel, would you grab a rock and chunk it over the fence at one of those terrorist idiots for me. I've got Ben Franklin for you if you bean one of 'em. Evil

________
In regards to Democrats, Republicans, gangs, and other scads of coterie Kool-Aide drinkers; Remember this..... Eagles Don't Flock

Git,

Submitted by eodnnaenaj1 on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:19am.

How dare you? I told you not to ever tell anyone how old I was.

Git

Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 9:34pm.

Which dead Prez do I get if I bean one in the mini-mart up the street?

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Hello from DFW!

Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 4:54pm.

It's life in hotel again. The things I do for money. Git, I hope to stay away from those "hot" areas while in Israel. The only exciting thing that I plan is the taxi ride from the hotel, which BTW is on the beach, to Ben Gurion Airport were the work assignment is at. I will stick by big toe in the Mediterranean.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 4:59pm.

Hope the trip was pleasant, enjoyed Friday night and Saturday, see you soon.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

hutch,

Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 5:01pm.

Did your daughter hear anything yet?
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 5:03pm.

Not yet, ya'll?

I yam what I yam....Popeye

My son's flute..

Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 5:06pm.

teacher sometimes has the inside skinny. I suspect that Mr. B. does too.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Git Real That was a Good One

Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 6:09am.

Very good dollar impersonation.

You are the same age as us man, who are you calling old??

Have a good weekend.

Old Men

Submitted by Git Real on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 5:03pm.

I'm in denial Sky. And there's nothing you can do to rob me of my illusion. Smiling