i think some actual acts of torture would be:

water boarding/simulated drowning
smearing menstrual blood on someone's face
sleep deprivation
shocking people's genitals
exposure to extreme heat and cold
slapping someone in the head for hours

i think the u.n. describes torture well by saying it's:
any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of
having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

the fact that the administration has stated that pow's do not fall under the protection of the geneva convention shows that they are essentially dehumanizing these people and giving themselves permission to torture for information (even though studies have proven that someone is less reliable to give sound information under torture opposed to the tactic of instating a stockholm syndrome effect).

knowing that bush was warned that his policies might fall under the category of war crimes, he still continued in it. he has said that waterboarding is not torture and thus we don't torture, but his definition states that organ failure is a sign of torture,anything up to the point of organ failure,according to bush, "is not torture" in that case, we can pretty much do anything to a prisoner of war.

i'm not sure i understand how our congressmen have been defaming the troops, you might have to explain that some more.

either way, when you consider what the insurgents do to people they capture from our side, it makes one upset and makes them want to get revenge...but to truly be morally right, we cannot do that...and as a supposed christian, bush and no other american can justify torture with their religious beliefs. christianity isn't about getting even, it's about turning the other cheek and loving your enemies. you show me where jesus says to go and torture and i will tattoo "george bush is god" across my forehead.

There is no such thing except when you get caught by someone who also has power.
Using the word torture is similar to using the words: beauty, red, yellow, soft, hard, rich, poor, and many, many, more.
For instance: red can be pink or it can be orange; hard can mean carbon steel, or it can mean apples!
In this case it is what Mr. Bush approves for use, plus what the users add!
Some of us think no amount of pain inflicted, or even death, is sufficient payback, or should be disallowed, just in case one of the prisoners happens to know something critical---which is usually unlikely.
How we can still argue this or do it, is beyond human understanding, especially American understanding.

Where did your little buddy fullofit get to?

I yam what I yam...Popeye

How was the band extravaganzza? And who is "full of it"?

Kevin "Hack" King

you remember "tiredofit", he didn't think much of your service in the AF, didn't think ya'll did that much in desert storm. The band thing was long and drawn out and we have another one this weekend.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

Did I tell you this is my last band competition this weekend?
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Rub it in.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

I tend to tune folks like that out. I don't have enough time to waste on unproductive ideas. You know who I miss? Armymajretired, Mixer, oldschoolfootball, rightonthemoney, mainframecpu. Now there were some ideas worth reading and debating. But alas, I get nostalgic too soon. I'm sure there is a knock down drag out waiting for me around the corner.

Kevin "Hack" King

If you get desperate, we can debate if it's true you AF types really have to sit down to pee. Goodnight catch you tomorrow.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

special "microphone" for that purpose. It went to a little venturi which was someplace on the tail.
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I will admit that I was dancing around the issue so to speak. However, since you asked for specifics and provided a well thought out and worded response, let me return the favor to you.

Sleep deprivation? Really? Okay, then all of my high school teachers, college professors and bosses are all guilty of torture. That is not the same as electrocution. It is not even close. The methods of interrogation used by our government on the thugs that are trying to kill us are necessary and within the confines of the rules of war.

Please do bear in mind that the Geneva Convention only applies to belligerent parties. Parties meaning nations, or other organized armies. The thugs being held at Gitmo are not prisoners of war, they are criminals. They do not wear a uniform nor report to any recognized hierarchy. They are organized and trained, but outside of the commonly accepted definition of what would be deemed as an army. In addition, they are not under the protection of our Constitution as that document only applies to our citizens, not foreign nationals being incarcerated as criminals.

In addition to the methods of interrogation that you named above, we are also providing them with their own copies of the Koran, prayer rugs, food, water, clothing and shelter. How dare we!

Forcing someone to listen to Metallica or MegaDeath or AC/DC for hours on end in an extremely brightly lit room can hardly be called torture. Yes, it is mental anguish but that is precisely what interrogations are designed to do. To extract information from people that they would not normally divulge.

I think that you will agree that it boils down to semantics and word parsing by both sides. To be quite honest, I would support any measure of mental pressure and fear on these thugs to ensure that we aren't attacked again and can bring down the jihadists. But that is just me.

In response to your question on the Congressmen, I can provide two specific examples. The first would be John Murtha. While six Marines were under investigation for the death of civilians in Iraq, Mr. Murtha was quoted as saying that the Marines acted in cold blood and called them murderers. While any American has the freedom of speech, his use of the people's time was unwarranted, reckless and disrespectful. Americans also have a right to be presumed innocent until convicted. By the way, the Marines were exonerated through a court martial. The second example is Pete Stark from California. Mr. Stark was speaking about the entitlement program called "SCHIP" and made a comment about how the Republicans would not fund the health care hand-out to protect children, but are more than happy to send the ones who make it to maturity off to war to have their heads blown off for their (meaning the Republicans) and President Bush's enjoyment.

That kind of rhetoric is again reckless and should be rewarded with a censure by the House toward Mr. Stark and Mr. Murtha. They should be there to do the people's business not the party's. As a note, Mr. Stark has apologized at the same podium that he used for his inflammatory remarks.

While I agree that the Christian religion does not condone torture, this is not a theocracy. We are obligated to follow our Constitution not the dictates of a religion. Please do not mistake this for anything other than what was said. Otherwise, we may get into a religious debate and I do not think that was the intent of this thread.

I hope that the above helps you to understand where I am coming from in my comments. It is not about a party or ideology. Rather, it is about our national sovereignty and our very existence. Preservation of our republic should be the primary point of focus in these dangerous times.

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

To clarify what the Geneva Convention actually says, all parties within a state bound by the Geneva Conventions are subject to its protections against torture. 194 countries have ratified the Conventions and all parties within their borders are protected. GA Conservative is correct that the terrorists may not automatically be classified as POW’s, however everyone is covered against torture.

Article 5 of the Conventions states: “Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.”

This was the basis of the U.S. Supreme Court’s June 29, 2006, decision in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld which applied Common Article 3 to a global conflict with a non-state actor, al-Qaeda, taking place within the territory of a country that is a party to the Geneva Conventions, Afghanistan. This decision is reflected in the new DOD Directive 2310.01E on DOD’s detainee program, released on Sept. 6, 2006.

After the required tribunal, a prisoner’s status is determined to be either that of a legitimate combatant (wear a uniform, report to any recognized hierarchy, organized and trained, etc.), in which case they would be entitled to POW status or they would not be a legitimate combatant (as a terrorist would almost certainly be classified).

This is a very important distinction for several reasons, the main two being that POW’s cannot be held prisoners after the end of hostilities and POW’s cannot be brought to trial for legitimate actions taken in the conduct of the hostilities. Most importantly, a POW cannot be tried for murder for killing someone during the war.

These rights afforded POW’s do not apply to terrorists. They can be brought to trial on murder and other charges even if they kill a lawful combatant. Furthermore they can be imprisoned after the cessation of hostilities for their crimes.

Regardless of status, no one can be legally tortured. Since the main question about torture now is water boarding, it has been determined by international and U. S. law that water boarding is torture. This blog is too long already but the U. S. has upheld water boarding to be torture in international cases brought against foreign persons and states where U. S. soldiers were tortured, in international cases where non-U. S. soldiers were tortured, in international cases where U. S. soldiers carried out the torture and domestic cases where civilian prisoners were water boarded while in U. S. jails.

Torture is well defined in U.S. and international law. It is most definitely not in the eye of the beholder. Examples clarified through case law include, but are not limited to, beating on the soles of the feet; electric shock applied to genitals and nipples; rape; near drowning through submersion in water; near suffocation by plastic bags tied around the head; burning; whipping; needles inserted under fingernails; mutilation; hanging by feet or hands for prolonged periods.

thanks for being a reasonable person,but...

we have to acknowledge that all of these things are being done to people around the clock in order to cause a mental breakdown of the person. as mild as you may think these things are, imagine that they occurred to you on a daily basis for any number of years. i suspect that when you got free, you would probably want to kill the person who did it to you. consider also that food,water, and shelter are not necessarily great things in and of themselves. if you'll recall, the nazis gave these things to people in concentration camps, but i don't think anyone in them had fond memories of the germans. certainly you understand that we couldn't say "well,the nazis weren't that bad, they did feed them and clothe them a little.they even gave them a place to sleep"

i'm not saying that we're committing genocide, but i am saying that we are entering that mindset of someone being less than human. we are reasoning with ourselves to make it alright.

also, not everyone at gitmo are actually criminals...in fact, there have been hundreds of people let go after years of imprisonment... they were let go because they didn't do anything and it only took us a few years to figure that out. you might want to say that you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet or something like that, but again, you would be incensed if you were imprisoned for 5 years and not told why and not given any sort of trial or legal recourse...oh also, people are torturing you consistently, but they're just depriving you of sleep and beating you, so it's really not that bad. wait, just kidding, that's what i would call hell on earth.

in any case, i think that if any of the tortures were done to you or yours, you would be furious beyond your wildest dreams, it's just easier to watch it happen to other people. it's also easier to watch civil liberties taken away...habeus corpus is a pretty important thing...even if they aren't prisoners of war and instead they're criminals, well, they should have a right to defend themselves in a court...how many have gotten a day in court yet?

we are not a theocracy, but if george bush claims to be a follower of christianity then he has certain moral convictions that he ought to be following. by the nature of being a christian,someone couldn't say that we should care for poor and the weak but turn their heads from genocide and starvation. while it is not a religious discussion and our nation is anything but religious, i'm talking about an administration and a party that prides itself on its moral integrity.

"Sleep Deprivation" is a method of torture that is far beyond any sleepless night you ever had in college, GA conservative. Try being forced to stay up for days on end at a time. Quite different.

As far as your outdated notion that "enemy combatants" are somehow "criminals", the Supreme Court has ruled otherwise. And with conservatives like Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas on the court you can't say this is a "liberal" court, either. Simply declaring someone to be an enemy combatant does not make one so, as President Bush found out to his dismay. The court has ruled that anyone held in a military prison is entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions.

Of course, there's also the issue of human decency with regard to prisoners. Lowering ourselves to the standards of our enemies isn't the way to go. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Obviously, my sarcasm was not thick enough in my example. It was intended as such, but I find it harder with the written word than verbally.

While your statement is true about lowering ourselves to the standards of our enemies, I wonder what method of interrogation do you propose. Bearing in mind that some prisoners at Gitmo have tried to use starvation and withholding of water voluntarily to the point of force feedings, it is clear that their resistance is high and they may not be willing to have a chat. If you were in the position of those in charge, what would you do to obtain the necessary information?

Not trying to pick a fight. Just a question.

In regards to your comments on the prisoner of war, I was using the definition set up by the UN and the Convention itself. This was the applied definition until quite recently. So, not so sure that outdated would apply.

While you are most ceratinly right that President Bush was surely dismayed at the Court's ruling, rulings can change. It is certain that the court is beginning to have more of a conservative hue to its make up. The ruling does show that we in the US are (generally) held to a higher standard than our enemy in this fight.

The bottom line is that torture and "persuasion" seems to be a fine line. It is just disturbing to me that some are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to our enemy more so than our leadership.

Gotta run!

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

I hope my previous long blog clarified somewhat the POW issue.

Here you say, "The ruling does show that we in the US are (generally) held to a higher standard than our enemy in this fight."

This is true. We are holding ourselves to a higher standard. Without picking an argument or implying things you did not say, to me this is a good thing. It is part of what makes us better than them. Otherwise we could rationalize the bases of actions and accept any barbaric action by our enemies as the new level to which we too could sink. We could advocate lining up a series of people without trial or council and shooting them in the head one after another like a blogger advocated here. That doesn't even vaguely resemble the ideals which America represents to me.

Hi Georgia conservative. I'm really, really confused about what "conservative" means these days. Does it mean small unobtrusive govt or does it mean Patriot Act "largest federal govt ever" government? Does it mean "culture of life" conservative or torture to get information that may or may not be useful conservative? Is it rule of law or signing statement to ignore laws you don't like? Is it protect the unborn but don't use a penny of my money for them once they are down the shoot? This comment by you provoked thought in me:

"The thugs being held at Gitmo are not prisoners of war, they are criminals. They do not wear a uniform nor report to any recognized hierarchy. They are organized and trained, but outside of the commonly accepted definition of what would be deemed as an army. In addition, they are not under the protection of our Constitution as that document only applies to our citizens, not foreign nationals being incarcerated as criminals."

Okay Mr. or Mrs. Conservative, if the human beings at Gitmo and Abu Graib are all so certainly guilty of crimes, why do you suppose we have not seen prosecution after prosecution? Is there, by some strange chance, the possibility that we are detaining people who may have been wrong place wrong time wrong language? Maybe? And if there are innocent HUMAN BEINGS being held intermixed with actual bad actors, might we be wise to keep the treatment of ALL of these HUMANS HUMANE? Just a thought.
Kevin "Hack" King

Just to be clear, I am speaking for my vision of conservativism only.

To me a conservative believes in limited federal government with stronger, more active government at the state and local levels. A conservative supports lessening the powers of the Federal government in most matters and favors personal responsibility and liberty over regulation and government interference. No, I am not a fan of the PATRIOT ACT or of other items of legislation approved by many supposed conservative Presidents, Senators or Representatives.

Just as there is a difference between conservative and Republican, there is a difference between liberal and Democrat. In my opinion, the differences are much starker between a liberal and a conservative than the Republicans and the Democrats.

Hope that the above helps you to see where I am coming from on any of my posts.

As for the Gitmo remarks, I do agree. I think (like Jeff C said) that our high road approach (so to speak, Jeff) does make us the better man in this fight. I also know that we certainly must have some innocent people at Gitmo. However, the majority of the ones there are probably guilty of some terrorist act towards our nation or national interests. As in any prison-type situation mistakes can be made and most certainly have been made. However, we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Jeff C-Hope that this answers your question.)

That being said, we should actively pursue information from the people there to determine who is innocent and who is guilty. As for the prosecution aspect, I am not sure. Sadly, they didn't ask me first.

Glad to see you back on the site, Hack. Thanks for your service to our country.

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

deleted

Hack,

You imply that enemy combatant prisoners at Gitmo are being treated in an inhumane manner. Can you quantify that statement?

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“...the term “democrat” originated as an epithet and referred to ‘one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses.’”

Just curious, if we capture Osama what do we do?

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dupe

We don't "capture" Osamma. We KILL Osamma. Osamma has inspired attackers of the US homeland. He trained and financed attacks on us. I do sooo wish someone would attack Osamma Bin Ladden as if he was an SCHIP expansion bill going through congress. But he doesn't seem to be that important, does he?

Kevin "Hack" King

"We don't "capture" Osamma. We KILL Osamma."

Wouldn't that be a waist of a good 35 cent round?

How about we capture him and then have a trial and then a world wide lottery to see who gets to pull the tiger?

Tickets are a buck each except for service people. For them it's a dime each.

All money goes to the families of the fallen, all participating countries.

The networks bid on the live telecast. Bidding on commercial time starts at $5 mil/30 sec. slot. All commercial proceeds go into a college fund for the kids of the fallen, again all participating countries.

Any questions?

too soon. As I sat on his lifeless body eating the rest of my MRE (spagetti hopefully), all of the should have, would have, could haves would come to mind certainly. I am reading Marcus Luttrell's very political book, Lone Survivor. It is pretty overly dramatic as it emphasizes over and over again the fearless all-capable nature of the SEAL. I'm sure his publishers forced the hollywood version there, but he talks about the strong desire to encounter Osamma face to face. I would actually like to have a discussion with Osamma, but I don't think it'd be possible; tempers and bullets flying and all. I hope he does not escape into history never having to account for the over 3000 funerals he caused.

Kevin "Hack" King

I've tasted the spaghetti, at least that what it was labeled, MRE and it's just about the worst thing I've ever eaten. Then again I wasn't fond of my mom's spaghetti ether.

Grubs under rock is better.

not with political posturing going on now.
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Are you driving the penske Friday night?

I yam what I yam...Popeye

Hopefully the company jet will whisk me away tomorrow from Okie-Homa to home.
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We had a formation of training bra jets and one had an instrument problem. We landed at Tulsa and ended up renting a Nissan Sentra for $140 one way Ouch! Add 3.00 toll to get to Enid and that made for a very unglamorous RTB.

Kevin "Hack" King

needle, ball, and airspeed. I think the OK air national guard is here. I see some F16's at the aerodrome.

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We've trained many of their new hire pilots here at Vance. The FBO (fixed Base Operator) at Tulsa, where non-commercials gas up, has a grand piano and custom-made furniture in it. Oil business must be good in tulsa!

Kevin "Hack" King

corporate hangar is out here.

Hey, while you are here; did you read Carter's book Palestine and Apartheid
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See you Friday, goodnight, this squid is going to bed.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

G'Nite bro

Kevin "Hack" King

one more hour!!! Good night.
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I think as an old sailor we should take him out beyond the 12 mile limit and float test him, I bet he fails.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

Only someone from the Navy would think of that.
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It's a shame when someone steals more anchor chain then they can swim with.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

anchor" comes the command.
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we should not, under any circumstances, torture these poor souls. We should gather them together in one room, line them up side-by-side and moving left to right(or should that be right to left?) ask once what we wish to know. If the answer isn't what we want, shoot them right between the eyes, quick and humane. Then ask the next in line, same procedure. I don't think it would take too long to gather information from the remaining. If not, who cares, go find some more to line-up.
You bleeding heart, tree hugging wuuses make me want to puke.

O wad some Power the giftie gie us,To see oursels as ithers see us!
(R. Burns)
If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot.
(E. M. Cioran)

And to think many conservatives wonder why the world seems to be moving left. It certainly couldn't be that you might be leaning wildly to the right in a deranged kind of way. I am truly amazed by the things conservatives or neocons say about real people in real situations. yes, let's execute people in masse. We can put them in camps and call them, ummm consentration camps, yeah! We can have easy bake ovens and dogs and torture rooms and knock out some private sector medical experiments at the same time, right Tonz?
I actually had a very close and very conservative republican friend of mine tell me today that he has no sympathy for the rich Californians losing their houses. He also said, I'll try to quote here, "they should push all of the illegals into the flames while they're at it." Let me emphasize that this is a friend of mine whom I love. Me and this guy have given eachother many a fat lip and bought eachother many a meal. It blew me away to think that he has this Glenn Beck idea that Californians are liberal hate America people who are getting what they deserve, and that illegal immigrants should burn. WOW! I really don't know where conservatism jumped the tracks, but between Coulter "perfecting" Jews, Glenn Beck joking about liberals burning houses, Rush Limbaugh mocking Parkinson's victims and 12 year old accident victims, and our President rallying for money to support Iraq's infrastructure while arguing against spending more on ours, I am absolutely confounded. I truly don't know what to think of the modern conservative movement. Can anyone splain this to me?Kevin "Hack" King

I'll show you deranged! (he said, eyes ablaze, wide and wild) BTW, what does "deranged" mean?
This kind of fishing is WAY too easy. Throw any little thing in the water, and you little fishes jump all over it. It's almost unfair how easy it is to get a rise out of you. As a member of the "Fab Five", you are one of the easiest fish to reel-in.
Can't you recognize satire when you see it?
You people take yourselves way to seriously.

O wad some Power the giftie gie us,To see oursels as ithers see us!
(R. Burns)
If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot.
(E. M. Cioran)

the point at which human life is expendable to you is when you've lost your moral compass. not to mention the fact that when someone hears of an american soldier being tortured or executed, it's enraging...that's because we think it's wrong and inhumane.

but i suppose that you're right though, we should just kill without discrimination or conscience. not only should we kill people overseas but i should be allowed to shoot anyone who looks at me cock-eyed or cuts me off in traffic, that'd show 'em. i'm an american and everyone else can go screw themselves. my life is the only life that is valuable. freedom is more important than anything! god bless america and no one else, because god's an american...blue eyes, blond hair, and watching the blue collar comedy tour on comedy central.

i would like to thank you for your very reasonable opinion, now if you've finished, i'll let you go so you can drink the blood of virgins, or whatever it is that neo-cons do.

Please check your dictionary for the definition of "vacillate".

O wad some Power the giftie gie us,To see oursels as ithers see us!
(R. Burns)
If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot.
(E. M. Cioran)