Never thought we would consider moving from PTC

“I think the only legacy left to consider is how much more of Peachtree City’s heritage of careful planning will they end up trashing.

TDK and Hwy. 74 South are still to be decided. We can only hope — without much supporting evidence — that our leaders will do the right thing.”
Editor Cal Beverly, following the recent annexation vote by the PTC City Council

For the first time in the 18 years we’ve lived in PTC, my husband and I talked about moving. We had planned on retiring and living here for as long as we could keep up the house and yard. Our youngest is graduating this year and the big box and TDK stuff already has us missing the PTC we loved for almost two decades.

My husband told me to give Harold Logsdon a chance when he first got elected. Now I’m wondering if PTC has a chance. Steve Brown was honest and the bums like Bob Lenox and Fred Brown hated him. Every time they accused Steve of something, they were always proven wrong. Harold is much worse than Bob though.

A lot of my friends keep saying there has to money under the table to get these deals going though. Since the mayor has been caught in so many lies up to this point, maybe they are right.

We have no idea where we would move to, but it's heartbreaking watching what's going on here.

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Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 7:30pm.

We have been gone from PTC for quite a while. I am looking in to some rental property there though - looks ripe for rentals.

As bedroom communities go, you are looking at afternoon rush hour phase - if you are going to move, you better get out before nightfall.

But what do I know Eye-wink

Is there bias on the war coverage? Click Here

nuk's picture
Submitted by nuk on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 6:19am.

You hate it so much, MOVE already. Are you a masochist that enjoys being miserable? If so, by all means stay and be obsessed with local politics and OMG something got built!

The voters spoke loud and clear at the last election. You definitely should consider relocating because you aren't in anything resembling the majority of voting citizens of PTC, hence you'll probably be even more miserable as time goes on.

There are a lot of people in this country who would shake their heads in total disbelief that some people would gripe and whine incessantly about living in a place like PTC. They simply cannot afford to live in PTC because all the amenities of this planned community and it being part of a good public school system make it so desirable that housing is pricier and there is also a lack of "affordable housing" BY DESIGN.
If it's not for you, by all means, move.


John Munford's picture
Submitted by John Munford on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 9:27pm.

Jeez I hate to complain but everyone harping about Big Boxes has forgotten the score.

Steve Brown big boxes: 1 (Kedron Target, sprawling parking lot and all)

Harold Logsdon big boxes: Zero (yet, granted) but prospects for the southside don't look too hot, at least given the vibes I got off Steve Boone wanting to vote instead of postpone.

Let's not forget that the Logsdon council (yes it takes at least 3 votes to do something):
1. Said (bleep) no to Wieland's sardine can ... er ... townhomes (335 on 88 acres, for the record
2. Sent Senoia's sewer request packing, which may only have stalled that town's aspirations but also enabled Reese's McIntosh Village to tie into Senoia's new fancy sewer system. (to be fair no one could've seen that coming!)

The real test for the Logsdon bunch in my mind is public safety. It's already on the record that PD and FD are short staffed. PD has a union now for cryin' out loud!!!

Is it morale? Is it money? All of the above??? If they don't find a way to fix it PTC will head down the tubes faster than Wieland and Levitt can build homes. In MY opinion.

Steve Brown's picture
Submitted by Steve Brown on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 11:37am.

My goodness John Munford! Are you an independent, objective news reporter or are you Mayor Logsdon’s personal spin doctor? Your comments are unresearched and unbelievable.

Someone called me on the phone saying you were trashing me on the Citizen web site and I could not believe my eyes when I read your comments. I went back to the Citizen archives and found that Frank Lynch covered the Target story for the newspaper which might account for your tilted perception and lack of knowledge on the subject.

For the recorded, I voted against the legal settlement with Faison (Target). For the record, I had previously opposed big box stores due to the negative impacts and I still maintain that position to this day. For the record, Faison’s claim to be able to build the Target was “vested rights” as the shopping center plan was approved in 1995 and the big box ordinance did not hit our books until 2000.

For the record, Peachtree Brokers (PCDC/Pathway) had a signed letter from my predecessor on city stationary stating they had vest rights to build a big box store on the site. For the record, a loop-hole in our ordinances (which I later had closed via ordinance): there was no termination date on site plans that were approved by the city (in other words, a shopping center design approved in 1960 was still valid in 2000 even if plans for the area had changed over time).

For the record, the site plan for phase two of the Kedron site showed a large rectangle designated as a big box. For the record, we fought with Fasion in court and we were joined by legal representation from the adjacent neighborhoods.

John Munford’s far-reaching-beyond-reality comparison between my actively objecting to the Target development and battling a legitimate vested rights lawsuit versus Mayor Logsdon’s OPEN EMBRACE of big box development and his hard push for its approval even though we have a big box ordinance is deceitful.

The adjacent homeowners, as an active legal partner knowing our situation with the Target litigation, thank us for doing everything in our power to protect them. On the other hand, the adjacent homeowners with the big box on Highway 74-S are furious at Mayor Logsdon for enabling the developer. The mayor is trying his best to bring in at least two more big boxes on key arterial roads (possibly two more). There is a huge difference.

You can and you should do better John Munford. As for McDonoughdawg, I remember you being a darn good trash talker during the last election. You were pretty good a bad mouthing me on this site, and you can keep on going for all I care. All I ask for is an honest discussion and for a free and open press.

From the Citizen:

“The North Carolina company was asking the court to establish its “vested rights” to build the 125,000 square-foot Target store and 145,000 square feet of additional commercial space in the final two phases of Kedron Village.

Phase I, completed in 1996, consists of a Kroger store and several smaller retailers.

The big box ordinance limits such stores to a zone near Wal-Mart and Home Depot, and then dictates that they must not be larger than 32,000 square feet.

Faison insists it has a right to build Target at Kedron because a large-scale “big box” retailer was included in the original site plans for the commercial center when it was first laid out in the early 1990s.” (Citizen, March 10, 2004)

“Peachtree City Mayor Steve Brown has been an outspoken opponent of big box development. However, Brown stated, ‘This lawsuit was really more about the landowner’s vested rights from 1995 than our city’s ‘big box’ ordinance.’

The City Attorney concluded that the developer had vested rights to build structures similar to a plan that was previously approved in 1995. The ‘big box ordinance’ was not passed until 2000. The landowner came to the city in 2000 with a different plan for a Home Depot but it never made it through the Planning Commission. There was not sufficient case law available to determine if the 2000 plan would revoke the 1995 vested rights claim.

The developer, Faison, came back to the city with a settlement offer that reduced the square footage and met the concerns of the adjacent homeowners. The Mayor, along with Council Members Murray Weed, Stuart Kourajian, and Judi Rutherford, stated that the developer should also be responsible for any future traffic mitigation needed in residential areas on Peachtree Parkway and Faison agreed to those demands in court Monday.

Even though Mayor Brown did not vote the same as the other council members in attendance, he praised them showing up and being willing to work on the best possible solution. ‘The four of us that attended the special called meeting had to weigh a lot of different variables and the final decision was not an easy one. We all had pure motives and the best interest of the citizens in mind when we cast our votes.’

Brown continued, ‘I applaud my three colleagues for coming to the table and going through the gut-wrenching process of trying to deliver the best outcome for our city. For me personally, the difference between a ‘yes’ vote and ‘no’ vote was 23,000 square feet, because our City Attorney stated at 192,000 square feet, I would have had no choice but to vote in favor of the development due to vested rights.’” (Citizen, April 2, 2004)

“That decision pleased members of the Lake Kedron Homeowners Association who had joined with the city to oppose Faison’s original site plan submitted more than a year ago. They mainly objected to plans to extend Regents Park into the Target parking lot.
Under the plans approved Friday morning, the current termination of Regents Park will be made a true dead-end and a stand of trees and vegetation will remain.

‘We want this process to move forward, which means we’re ready to see something built,’ said Lake Kedron officer John Hedge.” (Citizen, October 27, 2004)

Submitted by maggie on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 9:43am.

John is nobody's spin doctor. I enjoy reading his artlicles and find them accurate and insightful. The headlines are another matter! That's where Cal does his "spinning."

Submitted by McDonoughDawg on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 2:13pm.

You are one touchy person, and that may be the reason you lost big time. Sorry to be so blunt, but it gets old, you acting like your were PERFECT in office.

Fact is, you voted for things that were in direct conflict to the land use plan.

nuk's picture
Submitted by nuk on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 6:00am.

One of those things in direct conflict wouldn't have been the Lutheran church-into-a-CVS re-zoning would it?Smiling Even Rapson and Weed wouldn't go for that one.


mudcat's picture
Submitted by mudcat on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 5:22am.

Very defensive, an answer for everything, never admit wrongdoing or even an error in judgment. Very self-centered and you are correct that is a big part of why he didn't get elected again - that and God's will.

On the specific subject - Target - he did vote against the land use plan and it was up to the rest of the council to vote the other way and get the job done properly, legally and in the best interest of the citizens of Peachtree City. If Rapson and Weed had been there, the vote would have gone the other way and the lawsuit will still be going on. You know how those lawsuits end, don't you? Developer wins and gets general commercial zoning without any restrictions the city could have negotiated. Just ask Tyrone.

So on Target like almost everything else, Brown is out there by himself trying to get publicity instead of working for compromise. He lacks leadership and everyday common sense negotiating skills - that's the other reason he wasn't elected - we wanted leadership from an adult.

Now, he will respond by citing all the bad things others have done completely ignoring the central point of this post - Steve Brown lacks leadership skills.

So, do you like my new picture? meow

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 6:23am.

Dearest Mudcat,

Don't like your new pic. Problem is you sound too much like her these days.

As far as me being perfect I say thanks for the compliment. I'd say I'm not perfect but secure in the truth that the facts make me right on these issues 99% of the time. I may have a big head and possum eating grin but it's only because I relish tormenting cats while they are always trying to cover up their crap in litter box.

Go ahead. Take your next shot. It's obvious I can take a punch from the worst of you guys. I'm kind of like Superman aren't I. It's killing you isn't it. You just can't find a way to take me down and discredit me. So go ahead Honey and witch slap me again. I likes it.

With All My Love,



"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".


John Munford's picture
Submitted by John Munford on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 1:48pm.

Let me get this straight, Steve. You felt strongly enough to vote against Faison/Target but you couldn't convince your fellow council members to do the same?

Yet somehow the tennis center lawsuit was STILL active at the close of your administration. Those legal fees (in the six figures if I recall correctly) would've been better spent fighting Target/Faison.

Certainly council could've put up some kind of defense that that Target plan (submitted in '03 or '04?) wasn't anywhere NEAR the 1995 so-called big box plan that preceded it.

As for your accusation about me being a Logsdon shill, YOU KNOW BETTER. I've praised you before for doing the right thing, and I've chided you for the wrong thing (i.e. your Walgreen's/Christ Our Shepherd vote which was AGAINST the land use plan).

If Logsdon and co. approve big boxes, you can bet they'll take the heat from the citizenry, and I'll report it. But until then, the score is:

Brown and Co: 1, Logsdon and co: ZERO.

Kind of like in baseball, Steve. A run doesn't count until the runner successfully touches first, second, third and home in order. The Big Box developers haven't scored yet on the Logsdon bunch.

Steve Brown's picture
Submitted by Steve Brown on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 7:15pm.

Alright John Munford, you have to put both oars in the water to get to the other side.

First you say, “You felt strongly enough to vote against Faison/Target but you couldn't convince your fellow council members to do the same?” Then you say, “I've chided you for the wrong thing (i.e. your Walgreen's/Christ Our Shepherd vote which was AGAINST the land use plan).” Both were 4-1 votes. Are you saying you can “feel” my conviction on each one and that they are some how different?

Is that anything like the “vibe” you are getting from Steve Boone (your previous post)?

The Lutheran vote was not against the land use planning criteria set forth in our plans. It was unpopular, but the land was clearly in the village center, you cannot deny that.

You did not read the quotes I included from the newspaper. The old site plan (later became Target) called for 192,000 square feet. They had a letter from Bob Lenox saying they had vested rights. Do you think you could have won that case? The homeowners associations’ attorney told them they got a good deal and their leadership agreed. They had the same legal briefs and case law that we did.

Let me give you a better sport analogy: I was trying to sack the big box for a loss and Mayor Logsdon is trying to get them over the goal line for a score. There is a big difference between actively pursing big boxes and trying to fight one off. You avoided that point completely in your response.

I cannot believe you made the tennis center remark as you covered that toward the end. Judge English held the proceedings until January 2006, wonder why? We did not drop the lawsuit, the Logsdon council did. All of the capital expenses accounted to Development Authority, by the authority members, only amounted to a little over $500,000 and those were paid for with hotel/motel tax dollars. The illegal debt totaled $1.5 million. Where did all that money go - no one knows. With debt service charges included, the Peachtree City taxpayers are shelling out a little over $1.4 million. When you cut the employees compensation and pay someone’s illegal debt that does not belong to us, it is not hard to figure out why the employee outlook is low.

I remember a John Munford who refused to believe anything wrong happened with the Development Authority until the Vice Chairman confirmed what I was saying. Even Doug Warner admitted to you, later, that things were not done according to state law.

They said I was crazy with my TDK comments. They said I did not know what I was talking about when I said the SPLOST model was way-off base. They sued, they arrested and they filed ethics charges to make me back down. I think reality has set in and all of their intentions are pretty clear in the public's eye now.

McDonoughdawg must have an inferiority complex. I never claimed to be perfect; however, I was honest and open on those issues. I am certainly glad to go through some of the posts and see McDonoughdawg agrees with me on TDK.

Keep the debate raging.

Submitted by McDonoughDawg on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 8:18am.

I'm not sure if you know the rules or not here. You can't say ANYTHING bad about Brown. You can't even hint of it.

You're right, the parking lot at Target is atrocious in its look. It looks like something I would see near my Sisters home in Forsyth County. Federal rules or not, it could have been made more presentable. Look at the Avenue for the answer.

The current administration is far from perfect, but they have done two major things that they said they would do when they ran. Clear up the Tennis Center Debt, and work with Wieland and Levitt on the annexation and McDuff extension.

Keep up the good work, John. I appreciate your efforts.

Submitted by Jones on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 9:36pm.

This is hilarious!!! John Munford is trying to beat his way out of his paper bag. All of my neighbors were ecstatic to have Steve Brown fighting on our side against the Target developer. He and Steve Rapson beat the fool out of them.

TDK was no different. Oh yeah, everyone hates TDK now but no one would listen to Brown before. The guy is just like Winston Churchill when he kept telling everyone to act against Hitler and they laughed at him. No one is laughing any more.

Submitted by skyspy on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 6:51am.

I thought the target center mess was approved by lenox and his band of scoundrels before they left office?
Steve was trying to fight the size once he took office. Target and company said they had already been promised and a contract had been signed. Is my memory failing? You have better access to the archives here than I do. Who was really at fault for that ugly blight on the north side?

bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 10:26pm.

Chief Murray is a wealth of knowledge.

All you have to do is ask him and he has the numbers.

I'm loking forward to the CC meeting on the Lowe's.

Da Mayor, CC and Mr. Lidsey, (sp), will have a hard row to hoe with that one.

bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 9:41pm.

SB was no saint, I'll grant you but when was the land zoned "GC"?

The city had no option but to allow the Target to come in as it was grandfathered. Fighting it would have cost PTC $100,000's of dollars and would have resulted in us having to pay the lawyers.

That the folks on the north side took the initiative to assist in the design of it's access points was a good thing.

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 6:39am.

Just a farce to pretend to oppose these discount stores (by the council). They want the income for head count building.
Remember when Walmart wanted to build at Kedron?
They said NO! Wrong person owned the land,,,,no, I mean, not now.

John Munford's picture
Submitted by John Munford on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 9:51pm.

After all, Pathway's only real argument was they had dropped the non-descript site plan.

Don'tcha think SB and company could've reined in the parking spaces a bit though? That's one asphalt jungle for sure. Uck!

Wonder how many regular Joes and Janes look at that development as a Pathway 'sellout'

Submitted by bowser on Fri, 05/11/2007 - 11:09am.

The Target center was preordained as one of the original commercial "nodes" -- everybody and their brother knew something big would be there at some point. Only the details and timing were at issue.

No, it's not Avenue pretty, but at least you can buy something in that center without taking out a second mortgage. Plus you can actually get to it in a golf cart. And it's still easier to use and less impactful than the WalMart-Home Depot mess, in my opinion.

Now let's look at annexation to finish carpeting the westside with dense development. What part of the plan was that? When was there ever a rational, coherent argument made for the benefits of annexation, beyond the self-interests of a couple hundred westside residents and the developers, coupled with some vague concern that Tyrone might do something someday? (Interesting that Tyrone opposed on the grounds it will be too dense.)

I hope the westsiders enjoy seeing all those Cowetans blow through on the fabulous new Mcduff Parkway every morning and evening. Talk about your Pyrrhic victories....

Based on the coverage I've read in your paper, the fact that the Lowe's deal may not fly is a result of citizen outcry that has finally become too loud for the council to ignore.

nuk's picture
Submitted by nuk on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 6:07am.

"The Target center was preordained as one of the original commercial "nodes" -- everybody and their brother knew something big would be there at some point. Only the details and timing were at issue."

You're overestimating the intelligence and common-sense of a LOT of people here. You are dead-on right that the land was always going to be big commercial, but a lot of residents have never thought about anything in PTC that happened before they bought their home. They assumed they would be the last homeowners allowed to build a house in Kedron and that no shopping or anything else would ever happen. Why anyone could be this dumb is beyond me, but that's the mentality you deal with in PTC all the time. Move in and close the door behind you to anything else.


Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 5:55pm.

If you don't like the attitude of people in PTC, why not move to a crime city that is always ready to develop? They love developers and strip malls ......sounds like it is right up your alley. Take the alley cat/mudcat with you. What about henry county for you?? They love overcrowding too!

You would love it there, they always assume more people are moving in.

nuk's picture
Submitted by nuk on Sat, 05/12/2007 - 8:09pm.

The majority of PTC residents seem to be pretty happy folks. The shrill malcontents who seem to hate everything are a minority of the population, especially of the voting population.


bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 9:58pm.

Believe it or not there is a formula for determining the number of parking spaces that is based on the total sq ft of retail space. The city has no voice in determining that.

David Rast caught that with the proposed Lowe's development.

bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 9:47pm.

The Group VI office building on 74 and Redwine. There was never a septic plan for that property. the developer was counting on the city to annex that property so they could hookup to city water/sewer.

John Munford's picture
Submitted by John Munford on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 10:09pm.

Yeah I must've forgot because it hasn't hurt PTC one bit!

I feel pretty safe with this statement. Most, if not close to ALL, people in PTC don't care about that tiny annexation because it doesn't affect them.

How's that for ya?

And 'bout the parking. If memory serves the parking space ordinance came AFTER Target et al and not before. You can spout formulas all you want but that thing is still ugly.

Were I a PTC resident I'd have fumed about big spending on the Tennis Center lawsuit instead of the Big Box suit.

SB and Co. picked their battles, but obviously the wrong one as the TC is still there under the city's umbrella no matter how you slice it. And the future Target gas station (or is it Target Carmax?) is waiting to be plopped down in the sea of asphalt in Kedron PH3. Ugh.

bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 10:14pm.

The development at Redwine and 74 is a non revenue generator.

That means that it will cost the city more than it receives in taxes to support it.

Come to think of it, private homes are the same way.

Ask DR.

Annexing a negative revenue generating property is not the way to balance the budget.

Even if it was a break even project, the developer had no plans for a septic system.

I'm left to wonder how they new it would be annexed.

Parking is at a state or Fed. level I think.

mudcat's picture
Submitted by mudcat on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 2:59pm.

I went back and read your 37 weeks of blogs and I really see your frustration and hatred very clearly. You definitely should move especially as you retire. No need to deprive yourself and spouse of a well-earned retirement. So, here are some ideas, I'll assume you live in a $300,000 in Planterra or similar subdivision, so we can make comparisions.
1. Hilton Head. Strict sign controls, great landscaping and a wonderful beachfront enviornment. Tons of traffic. WalMart, HomeDepot, Lowe's all there. $300,000 gets you a 1 BR condo.
2. Seaside Florida. Very strict controls, no commercial, no traffic, but for $300,000 you'll have to share a house with another family.
3. Sun City Peachtree. It is in Griffin, believe it or not, but very new, so all the things you hate won't be there for 10 years. Check out how Griffin government works first - go to a couple meetings. $300k gets you the best house they have - 2000 square feet.
4. Big Canoe, Georgia. Very controlled enviornment. No commercial. Chance to participate in what passes for government - homeowner's association.
5. The Real Sun Citys, several in Nevada and Arizona and Florida. Very controlled - even the schedule of "senior" activities. Probably get a mid-range house for $300k.

Then when you try one of them and hate it and are ready to move back here ---
6. The Levitt project in PTC. Easy access to shopping at Home Depot and WalMart and convenient access to 74 and Tyrone. $300k will get you the cheapest house there - about 1600 sq. ft. and taxes will eventually be $4,000. Steve Brown will have replaced Lynn Westmoreland and be running against Dan Lakly and Eric Maxwell for U.S. Senate. We will have an all-female city council, Judi will have come and gone as mayor. Allison Chambers will have made a comeback.
Welcome back!

So, do you like my new picture? meow

Submitted by McDonoughDawg on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 12:56pm.

In my opinion.

I don't see the annexation as being a big issue at all. It has been thrown around for years, and I think most knew it was coming. I would rather PTC be in charge than Tyrone on this one.

I also think it is unreasonable to think that things won't change in 18 years here. But it is also smart to keep your options open. I still have family/friends that come here and marvel about the town. There is truly no place like it. At this point in my life, I would miss it dearly if I had to move.

Sometimes, you need to get away to realize what we have. I enjoy the golf cart paths/lakes/parks on an almost daily basis. The rest of my family lives off of 400 North of Atlanta, and that's just TOO hectic for me. I'm a long time Southside guy who should have moved here 20 years ago. I knew about it, but just didn't get it. Took the plunge 3 years ago and have enjoyed almost every minute of it.

Submitted by John M on Thu, 05/10/2007 - 9:20pm.

I agree with McDonoughDawg that the annexation is not the last nail in the coffin for Peachtree City. However, I agree with Johenry that more big boxes and the TDK traffic will about finish off the wonderful city we have known for some time.

Hey, Peachtree City will probably be better than most, but it will not resemble what we have appreciated for so long. Logsdon's build it like any other city philosophy is the worst thing to ever hit us.

There are a lot of homes for sale right now.

"I'm NOT John Munford"

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