Rather than living life with a hope that there is a carrot on the other end (and there very well may be - who knows!). Shouldn't we put as much emphasis on the fact that all we have left is our legacy? Is it not just as possible that the only thing we have left at the end is hopefully a path of goodness that helps others (your kids for example) live a more fulfilling life. When my dad died last year, I don't know where he might have gone, but I know with absolute certainty that he literally became a part of me and validated the impact he had on my life.
Can that self righteous scumbag in Denver say the same thing about his 5 kids?

Well, I would certainly prefer the company of those who, lacking belief in the carrot, have nevertheless managed to cultivate virtue. There are plenty of "carrotheads" who fail to see how their beliefs ought to make a difference in how they treat others in this life.

But the carrot analogy does not quite get at the belief properly considered. It isn't simply that there is some Great Thing waiting for us at the end. Rather, it affects the way life is and ought to be viewed right here and now. If, say, Richard Dawkins is correct in asserting that the only things that exist are quarks, electrons, genes and the like, then it is hard to see where moral values come in at all. Atheist philosopher J.L. Mackie observed that moral properties, such as rightness, wrongness, goodness and badness, would be particularly "queer" if atheistic naturalism is true. It is an unnatural fit. He suggested that objective moral values have their natural habitat within a theistic view of things, and went on himself to embrace a variety of moral scepticism.

But on moral scepticism, the worthy sentiments that you have expressed regarding our "legacy" and the like are merely that: sentiments, that are, as C. S. Lewis once put it, "no more capable of being true or false than a vomit or a yawn."

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

It absolute affects the way life is and ought to be here and now - just ask Osama. Ram an airplane full of people into the towers and your reward is 12 virgins (I forget the number and it is irrelevant anyway).

For me, its all about what motivates how we conduct our lives and treat others. Should it be that there is a reward on the other end (that what most traditional religions teach) . . . the carrot? Man is selfish and egotistical, so much so that its hard to believe there is an end. Leaving a positive legacy just isn't as sexy a proposition, until you learn how much joy there is in creating one.

I can't and won't tell you life doesn't extend beyond what our senses can detect and thus our brains can process. There also may very well be a creator but frankly the idea of some sort of judgement for those who have lived a virtous life is hypocritical to its core.

"With guys, they get 72 virgins when they die. But what do the women get? Seventy-two guys willing to discuss relationships and look through the J. Crew catalogue with you?" —Comedian Colin Quinn on the phenomenon of female suicide bombers

My point was philosophical. And it is just this: explain to me how to square objective moral values with a worldview that denies the existence of anything that transcends the natural world.

You and I agree that we ought to cultivate virtues and that, therefore, there are moral values. We lilkely also agree mostly on what those values are.

The Osama rejoinder misses the boat completely. The fact that there are religious fanatics who attribute obviously immoral commands to their (idea of) God in no way detracts from the point that the objectivity of moral values seems to require a worldview that appeals, in one way or another, to the supernatural.

I think it's 70 virgins.

Although the joke just after 911 was that they misheard. It was 70 VIRGINIANS awaiting the terrorists when they arrived. These included George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and others, who proceeded to beat the crap out of them.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

You are so right. How would we live, or treat others if today was our last day on earth?

I just want to say as I have written before that Church is not about us it is about Jesus. The comments that you have to say about Joel Osteen are so incorrect, I know he loves Jesus and loves people and if you would watch and listen to God's word and what he has to say you would know this. I see God blessing his church because he is preaching what God wants His people need to hear. Words of encouragement is what I need. God is my source of hope and encouragement. It's time we realize this instead of being beaten down by Satan. They are not against hell and brimstone why do you think they have an invitation every week to come to know Jesus. How many people do you think we will win to Christ without showing them the love of Christ first. Yes, you will go to hell if Jesus is not in your heart and you have asked forgiveness. About the music issue, as we go throught life things change. I thank God for the music
that is more uplifting, you have to understand true worship to God, and by the way you can do worship with some hymns if you are focused on God only. It is not the style of the music, it's who we sing to and worship and focus on Jesus at the time. It's personal syle, I don't care for country, traditonal ( with a few exceptions that I can understand what I am singing about in the hymn or that it's not making me feel I'm already defeated. We can live heaven in the real world, to me we are preparing for heaven if we know Jesus. We need to pray for all Christain Churches that uses the word of God, and I need encouragement and the hope that is only in Jesus. We need to pray for others of different faith to come and know Jesus and be concerned about their souls that what Jesus came for and died and rose again on the cross so we can tell the good news. If this is not your type of church there are lots of other Christain ones to go to.

If you find spiritual sustenance in J.O.'s messages, then I'm happy for you.

I *have* tuned in before. His messages have ranged from a general appeal to be "nice" and "positive" (take your garbage man a cold drink on a hot day), to "How to Maintain Your Perfect Weight" to his version of the prosperity gospel--something to do with "speaking God's blessing." As for the latter, I actually heard him say, "When you are going to the grocery store and the car in the space closest to the store backs out just as you get there, that isn't a coincidence. That's God's blessing upon you because you're his child." (And he adds that those who "speak the blessing" will be able to sell their houses when no other home is selling in the neighborhood, and they'll get promotions, and.....)

Poopoo.

All of this is biblically heretical, theologically absurd, empirically demonstrably false, and, overall, just downright laughable. Similarly, I tuned in for Creflo not too long ago to hear him say that you can use your tongue to rebuke illnesses. If you get the flu, it's because you let it in. (Interestingly, he said this while the Pope was down with the flu.) He said, "Your tongue is the rudder of your body. EVERY MOLECULE IN YOUR BODY MUST OBEY YOUR TONGUE." (Honest. He really did say this.)

I've commanded my hair follicles to grow more hair on top, but so far, they have been insubordinate.

Osteen's book (from what I was able to garner from a furtive look in a Sam's Club) has all of the depth of the morning dew.

And as for whether we are able to discern his "love for Jesus" from his messages, I have just two words: Ted Haggard. (Did you hear about Osteen's little diva of a wife and her tiff with the flight attendants on a plane? Apparently she did not get the service that she thought her celebrity status demanded. She caused such a scene that they put her off.)

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

I am an older gen-exer (1971) yet I guess I probably fall into the boomer camp when it comes to adopting the seeker model for churches. Probably because my parents never left their ultra-conservative church. I guess that puts me in the camp with the boomers who rebelled against their parent's churches!

Muddle, I agree with most of your indictments against seeker driven and seeker friendly churches. However, my definition of seeker friendly and that of our church is a bit different. As we plan our services, we filter everything in the service through the eyes of someone who has come to church either for the first time or the first time in a long while. This does not mean that we will not tackle complex theological issues or that our messages are "feel good" sermons. It does mean that we make sure that when we do talk about complex and deep theological truths, we explain them well and in layman's terms. We do not assume that everyone present understands words like "escatology" or "propitiation" without explanation. Our pastor regularly brings out the Greek words and what they mean. Recently, he did a series discussing predestination and the free will of man. Much of the time, our pastor does expositional preaching taking several months in one book of the Bible. This is probably not typical of most seeker churches, but I believe we have a good balance of solid Biblical teaching and strong application.

Earlier this fall, our church hosted an apologetics series dealing with Creation vs. Evolution. We have several hi-level "intellectuals" at our church. One even has degrees from Oxford and is excellent in dealing with apologetics. In fact, he has a ministry to college professors where he engages them in intellectual conversations and debate. My small group went through Lee Strobel's "The Case For Christ" which is a deeply intellectual look at the evidence surrounding Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. While our church is seeker friendly in the way that I mentioned earlier, it is not shallow, feel good, propserity gospel trash.

I would not walk across the street to hear Joel Osteen or other such social gospel preachers. I do not believe that God wants us all to be healthy, wealthy and wise. He wants us to be like His Son Jesus. Jesus told us that we would face persecution if we live like Him. He had no place to lay His head. I, too, question when pastors live in fancy houses and drive luxurious cars. The Church in China is praying that the Church in North America will experience persecution so that it will be purified by trial. While I certainly don't want to experience persecution, I do want the Church in North America to be purified. This is pretty much the only corner of the world that experiences the freedom to worship and incredible wealth. We are rich. Fat and rich. Fat, rich and yet not happy or satisified with what we have. We are so filled up on stuff that we are no longer hungry for God.

Then comes Ted Haggard and others who have gone before him. It is so dangerous when we (Christians) elevate preachers, worship leaders, movie stars, athletes to such heights. Superstar evangelicals are destined for a fall. Satan inevitably convinces them that they are somehow above the law and little indescretions here and there are no big deal. Soon, they're on 20/20 and they have given hundreds of thousands of people another reason to turn away from following Jesus.

Muddle, this may sound harsh to you and others who are believers in Jesus but are unchurched, but it must be said. You can come up with a million reasons to justify your not being a part of a church, but it still doesn't change the fact that it is the method that Jesus chose to share the Good News with a lost world. How successful are you at carrying out the Great Commission without being a part of a local church? Instead of heaping insults on the Church (the Bride of Christ whom He died for), why not join a local congregation and be a catalyst for change?

Muddle, I have found little I disagree with you on. You have much that you could offer a church. We are all members of one body. If we are cut off from the body, we will wither and die. The Body is missing something and is not as effective as it could be because you are not attached.

mewsicpstr

Religion can be done in one of two ways: the way the catholics used to try to do it, that is, by figuring everything out ahead of time for everyone, herding them into the church and smacking their hands when they stray, and giving them no say in their souls. The other way is total chaos within a thousand types of churches.
In other words, the church is the problem, not the sheep. There, wasn't that shorter and to the point?

I've read it once and I'll probably have to read it two or three more times to make sure I got what muddle intended.

muddle, I believe you were chastised a while back for not keeping it simple. Thank you.

The other day you said you were slow, but it is I who needs to contemplate what you have shared.

It might take a while.

a child of the sitcom Cheers. He is a cross between Frasier and Cliff Claven with a tad of Norm sprinkled in for balance. Muddle is a unique creation utilizing his abilities in educating the rest of us while strumming his guitar, drinking a beer and riding a wave all at the same time.

Those of us that love him just stand back in awe with our mouths hanging open going.....Wow Man!

Wouldn't it be cool if Muddle ran for office. Couldn't you have seen him standing between Kerry and Bush on the stage with both of them looking at him with their mouths drooping open while proclaiming...Huh?

Muddle...I'm on your side man. Sorry...can't stand behind you... you know..... wouldn't look right.

Well, thanks.

I especially like the "Norm" analogy. He always had the best lines. Like when they were all watching a video of Diane doing ballet. She says, "I've always wanted to dance so badly." Norm: "Looks like you got your wish!" Or my favorite: Norm feels guilty for leavijng wife, Vera, at home alone all the time. He has a tender moment when he borows the phone to call her. You of course only hear his side of the conversation. Something like the following.

Norm: Hi, honey. I was just thinking about you and wanted to call and tell you that I love you.

Pause as she says something.

Norm (flustered): Just a couple of beers!

What I loved about the show is that it assumed that the audience was intelligent enough to connect the dots and see the jokes. And it wasn't an audience in a can. They "filmed before a live audience."

If you are going to compare me to Cheers chracters, you forgot one. Woody. As in this scene.

Woody (to Frasier): I've had a horrible headache all night and I can't figure out why.

Frasier: Well, Woody. Sometimes a headache can be brought on by a subconscious memory of a traumatic experience. Have you... (on with a bit of psychobabble as he begins to spin an elaborate theory as to why Woody has a headache).

Someone orders a drink, so that Woody has to bend under the bar to get a glass. On the way up he conks his head very sharply on the bar.

Woody (holding and rubbing his head): Ow! I hit my head AGAIN!

There is a lot of that Woody in me. Ask my wife.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

I truly hope you aren't neglecting your wife/family while you type.

I haven't even finished your reply yet, but I already know it's going to be good stuff.

Always a pleasure reading your posts.

Sorry for the long response! Much to be said.

One more thought… Jesus saved His harshest criticism for the religious leaders of His day. He accused them of looking good on the outside but basically being nice looking graves (Matthew 23:27)! I have a feeling that if Jesus were on earth today, he would do the same!

mewsicpstr

As Steve Martin says in "Roxanne": "The Lord giveth...and He just KEPT ON giving, didn't He?"

Yes, Jesus saved his best criticisms for the leaders. And one can well imagine what he would have to say to today's televangelists hawking their wares and touting an asburd and heretical "prosperity gospel" in his name.

But until he returns to take up where he left off, there is always the WITTENBURG DOOR--"The World's Just About Only Religious Satire Magazine."

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Speak of the devil and he shows up.

Have you seen this story?
Another Fallen Evangelical Icon?

Tom Brokaw did a special report on Evangelicalism about a year ago--just a few days before my dad died. That was the first time I had ever heard of or seen Ted Haggart. When I talked to my dad the next day, he said, "There's something about that guy that I don't trust."

In all fairness, the news has just broken. He is apparently denying the allegations. There are claims that the allegations are purely political, because there are gay rights issues up for vote and Haggart is an outspoken opponent. But, frankly, I think his accuser seems credible. We'll see.

Meanwhile, just another reason to challenge the circus that is the evangelical megachurch. Megachurch ministers are launched to celebrity status and worshipped as such.

In the old days our scoiety honored heroes. Today is is celebrities. What is the difference between a hero and a celebrity? A hero's fame is due to his *character.* A celebrity, on the other hand, is celebrated for his "personality" or *projected image.*

I want a return to the days when character was the main thing that mattered.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Wow, am I ever relieved!

Turns out that Haggard did not have sex with a male prostitute.

By his own admission, he only went there for a "massage." Now (also by his admission), he DID buy illegal drugs from him, but he threw those away without ever taking them. It seems thsat Satan tempted him there in the wilderness, but at the crucial moment, he said "Get thee behind me" and pitched out his methamphetamines.

There you have it. All it was was an innocent private massage with a male prostitute. Every megachurch pastor needs a little something to relieve the stress of doing the Lord's work, dontcha think?

And Bill Clinton neither inhaled nor "had sex with that woman."
And Mark Foley is not really a pervert.
And Richard Nixon was not a crook.

God have mercy on us all.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Remember, "prosperity was a gift from God".

The only problem with this post is you could keep it going forever. There's low-hanging fruit everywhere you look.

Swaggart hooked up with a prostitute. Now when is somebody going to catch Falwell with his pants down?

Haggart/Swaggart - two peas of the same pod. Same recreational diversion, just different genders. Seems that the higher they profess to be, the harder the fall. Hypocrites just harvest the same results generation after generation. All this does is weaken the justification of their existence. So, just how many trick-or treat kids did Creflo receive at his humble mansion on Sandy Creek Road the other night? Probably none, since they could not get past his iron fences and gate.

I once saw a T-shirt that read: "I ran into Tammy Faye in the Mall."

The shirt displayed a distorted image of a face as though someone with too much eye, face and lip make-up had smudged into it.

The current Tammy Faye counterpart is TBN's Jan Crouch. I swear this cannot really be a person--it's an ancient Egyptian sarcophagus that harbors a mummy inside.

Think we can all start from scratch and try to figure out what Jesus really intended? I'm sure he had some splendid ideas. They are just unrecognizable under all of the absurd accretions. I'm game.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

At least you didn't get stuck on an elevator ride with her in hotel in Charlotte back in the late 80's. That image of her standing there looking like someone dumped a bucket of thick beige paint on her head and then spray painted some red cheeks on her mug is something I will never forget. I'm convinced that she was preparing to create your shirt Muddle. Funny thing was that when she pressed her face into the T-shirt she wouldn't have even had to squat down. Kind of like a Wizard of Oz midget. Sorry guess that was ugly. I owe the Oz midgets an apology.

It was pretty disgusting. An image like that will haunt a man for ever. Guess I would relate it to seeing Rosie O'Donnell in a bikini sitting outside of O'Charley's waiting for her turn to graze. Yuck!

This is very, VERY childish.

The humor should appeal only to people who have never quite grown up.
Guess that counts against me, because I nearly spewed my coffee from laughing.

You need to understand that this is Robert Tilton--one of the worst of the worst for taking advantage of the poor and ignorant. He was exposed nationally as a fraud years ago, but he's back on a black entertainment network. He preaches the prosperity crap, and, of course, is the only one who prospers from it.

So this is rather fitting, I think

And doesn't he look like the Joker?

Robert Tiltin'

Heaven's Bakery

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Thanks for sending the links on Tilton. Yes, they are very childish, but didn't Jesus say that we must be like children to enter the gates of Heaven? I laughed so hard, it woke my husband up, then he got a charge out of it. Funny thing, though, I was baking fresh bread yesterday!

Sometimes the blogs get so depressing and ridiculous - we needed a good laugh. Have a great day!

Typical republican relgious nutball behavior. I would be disappointed with anything else.

This is one more thing the whitehouse can be proud of.

Yeah, but a recent news story had it that people in Bush's cabinet secretly referred to such hot shot evangelical leaders as "kooks" (close to "nutballs") while openly courting them for their support.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

They know the guy is a scam....but they count on him to pray for the dumbing down of Americans,...so that we will continue to vote based on 1 or 2 hot topic issues. Vote based on emotion instead of clear thinking. Vote based on party line, not who would be best for the middle class people.

This is one more thing the whitehouse can be proud of.

Skyspy ole buddy....sometimes you need to listen to what you say. Come on man. You are certainly smarter than this.

It says right in the article that he has "close ties to the whitehouse". It also says he has conference calls with the whitehouse staff weekly.

Then please accept my apologies. I have not had the chance to read that article to discern what is truly happening here. If all is as you say then one would expect the White House to drop that association in a split second.

Just like bad cops there are no doubt bad preachers too. Sort em out from the rest and treat em like road kill. Wonder if Barney Fag will come to this guys defense?

there is a very small church I drive by every day to and from work, seems there are only about 8 cars in the lot on Sundays, a little churc. Yet, countless times when I go by I see this old fellow in suspenders always there; somehow, I've decided that's the preacher. Wonder how many megachurch preachers you'd be able to pull up and see, in work clothes? There? Working? Available? Don't know the man, have no idea, but somehow that is the image I'd rather see than all this other hoo-ha.

One benefit of a hobby a family member has, we often visit very rural, very small, backwoods churches, I'm talking C O U N T R Y, log cabin churches. It always amazes me to see the preacher there doing whatever is necessary, sometimes plunging out the stopped up toilet . . .no no even better, restocking paper supplies in the facilities "out back". . . can't you just see the megapreachers now!!! What a holla!!!!! But these are the real preachers, the real doers not hearers - the one's who are will to do "whatever" it takes to lend a hand.

Thanks, I really really needed that! What an interesting site, thanks!

New Mega Church Coming To Atlanta

Thanks Muddle. This site reminds me of someone I've come to know.

Here's what you have to see.

Watch out for those buttons on Benny's coat! He could take out an eye, and then Ernest Angely would have to be brought in for a healing service.

Our neighbor Creflo is featured in an episode if you scroll down!

Door TV

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

That is very fitting. I am so amazed at how many people get sucked into giving that self serving abomination to the world ...money.

Sky.....It's not scamer creflo. It's Creflo Dollar

I have been informed by reliable sources that Creflo Dollar is his monicker in the black community.

Or, alternately, "Cr@pflow"

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

I meant to say:

Their term for Creflo Dollar is actually CashFlow Dollar

Maybe you missed the best article at the Wittenburg Door.....check it out

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/creflodollar2.html

This one says it all!

that was the very article I was referring to when I thanked Muddle for the site. Ain't it a hoot, but soooo much truth to it.

Don't miss "Door TV" and the "Godstuff" episodes.

These are clips straight out of religious broadcasting episodes. The Door provides them to The Daily Show. They are hilarious. Benny Hinn's wife is caught telling the congregation that they need a "Holy Ghost enema"--and she accompanies this with a hand motion indicating where it would go. Benny himself is found flinging his Armani jacket at groups of people who fall as though dead. Robert Tilton (a.k.a. "The Joker"--looks just like him) is just brimming with absurdities.

The Door is a CHRISTIAN publication. The satire of such clowns is intended to help expose them for what they are. People sometimes take the satire to be sacrilegious. I think nothing could be farther from the truth.

If you go back a month or so in the archives you'll start finding my own contributions. I'll not say which, though.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

when one has thoughts that differ or question the general concensus; to find there are others who question, joke, poke a little good-hearted fun, and generally make folk stop and think. Thank you for these hook-ups.

Thank you for taking the time to comment on this debate we've been having. We appreciate your input!

I feel dizzy already. Where is ptc_guy when we need him?

-----------------------------------
Making you think twice......

Look how they live..... why don't they turn that fabncy car and big house in to cash to help the poor, downtrodden and starving and live the life of a pauper (Mother Theresa) if they are so sincere?

A Monster building is a monument to themselves and an abomination to those who believe in sacrafice and modesty.

Always stirring the pot-

MainFrame

How very good of you to speak up, even to apologize. . .and I agree with most things you say. Didn't quite remember the exact verse I wanted, because there are so many that apply, but I believe the "doers of the word, and not only hearers" is the bottom line here.

I hesitate to state my feelings in such a public arena, but as one who has lived through several absolute hells on earth, and continue to deal with it daily, I have lived through most of it by the grace of the Lord, and only me and the kid; it certainly would have meant a lot to have somewhere to turn. I've sought "christian" help a time or two for various needs, and sad to say, not one - not one helping hand delivered on their promises. How else can one see this but that they are hearers not doers.

While doing the best I can as I can, I would feel terribly neglectful and guilty to think someone had asked for help and I did nothing. If I make a commitment, I intend to deliver, somehow, one way or the other. . . Yet my experiences have proven to me that lots of good folk do not - - wonder what Jesus would have done. . .not only does it hurt deeply, but it serves only to perpetuate the hypocrisy.

I don't know what kind of help you are looking for, but have you ever tried The Real Life Center in Tyrone?

mewsicpstr

in the interest of saving them the embarrassment, I'll not mention the people/organizations/etc. that I have contacted. And you would be very surprized to learn of the very visible churches and organizations I have talked to.

If the "Mega-church" doesn't work for you then just don't go there. If you haven't noticed there are all different kinds of churches because not one works for everyone. It is not about pleasing the people instead of worshipping God. It is about using whatever means necessary to get the message accross!

What message you ask?

John 3:16. (paraphrased) For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whomever believes in Him shall not die but have life everlasting.

I need for all of my loved ones to know that message. There is NOTHING you can do to earn your way into heaven. Jesus came to pay our debt and allow ALL OF US into heaven. It doesn't matter if you are sprinkled, dunked, submerged or not baptized at all!! What matters is that you know Jesus and accept Him as your personal savior.

If a modern mega church is what is going to capture their attention and get the point accross then that is where we'll go. It worked for ME and ALL of my family here in GA!! It's not for everyone, but it works for a lot of us.

You keep your church and I'll keep mine!

Thank you!

*************************************************
I'm a spiritual being having earthly experiences

I think the issue here is not so much the where/what/and how of worship, I think the overall issue is those that don't practice what they preach. Yes, it began with a comment about a specific church, but soon led to how those churches are represented on a daily basis. I may be misunderstanding the general feelings expressed here, but what I'm getting is no matter what church, no matter what the beliefs, music, clothing, etc. the point is so many are not practicing what they preach. They are not "bringing them in from the fields of sin", not "helping widows and orphans", not "helping their neighbors" and on and on and on.

Further, I'm also finding there are a lot of, shall we say, lone believers out here, folks who are probably representing God's love, biblical principles and beliefs without the fellowship of believers, yet, they long for that fellowship.

This isn't directed at you Muddle but the conversation as a whole. I've been reading with interest and this is the question I need answered.

What is this church debate about? Is church about us or is it about Him? I thought we were supposed to go to church to acknowledge God and not worry about the jerk sitting next to the other jerk who would be me.

You are right, of course.

My son, who lives in Rome, has completely bailed out on church. These days I'm in no real position to preach at him, since I'm in the same situation.

His main reason for not going is the Old Saw: "The church is full of hypocrites."

My primary concern in his case is my two grandsons, now ages 6 and 2. There is precious little Christian influence in their lives. About the only time they hear the name "Jesus Christ" is when one of my son's buddies stumbles down the stairs after a few too many beers.

So I wrote a thing for him--a humorous piece--which wound up being published in a national mag. (Telling the title could result in a quick Google search and, in turn, my being unmasked!) I recounted my own years growing up in church. I was positively OVERCHURCHED as a child. My family was there "whenever the church doors were open," and sometimes, I swear, it seemed like this included when they were only open for the janitor to do the cleaning.

And, frankly, the church(es) in which I was raised had the average ratio of weirdos and hypocrites. I distinctly remember hearing some of the churchmen standing in the church parking lot telling racist jokes which featured the "N word." The minister who had been there for years took an inordinate interest in the contents of a skirt or two in the congregation and was soon seen driving a U-Haul en route to another state. One of the youth sponsors attempted to seduce half of the teenage girls in the group. There were people whose goofy religious beliefs amounted to little better than superstition. (I didn't realize that then, but looking back, I do.) And many of these had me in their charge in Sunday School, VBS, etc., etc.

The point of my piece was that, despite the obvious shortcomings of many in the church, somehow they managed to instill within me a basic Christian worldview by the time I was four. By then, my most fundamental belief that defined my overall outlook was that God created me and loves me, and wants me to love other people the way he loves me. I think this is the biblical point about "earthen vessels" or "jars of clay." God can use us, even with all of our imperfections and inconsistencies.

Indeed, the church IS full of hypocrites. But it is premised on grace, not our managing to display moral perfection. And sprinkled in are always a few who really do get it. I know and have known many ordinary people whose possession of genuine Christian virtues is nothing short of inspiring. The ratio would not have surprised the Founder: He told us that the path is narrow and straight and very few manage to find it.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

So should we go to "Praise & Worship The One Who Created Us" and seek his "Grace" and "Forgiveness" and to establish a relationship with Him or do we use others as an excuse to justify ourselves from establishing our own personal relationships with God. I suppose if the church is full of hypocrites and sinners then I would be in good company.

Hmmmm...I'm just thinking out loud because I'm dealing with the same issues as everyone else here. Guess our choice is to overlook the ones that are like me and to quit blaming them for my reluctance in committing myself wholly to God. It's kind of like we're using everyone else as a reason for our own personal lack of commitment to God. Does that make sense at all or do I sound like an idiot here?

Justa seekin' too!

I'm finding it amusing to read the various responses here, and I've come to the conclusion that there would be a great and loving church of awesome revival could we all find it at the same time and place. Seems there are some here who are "unchurched", that if there were a place that truly truly displayed the christian love that they preach, we'd all be there.

As Muddle mentioned, grace is what is sustaining most of us. I think many of us who are "unchurched" DO have a very personal relationships with God, perhaps even stronger than those who sit on the front row, as we are having to develop this relationship on our own, not in the fellowship.

I, like some others here, was at the church every time the doors were opened, worked with children sunday school, bible school, the bereavement committee, worked at the church, if it was church - I was there. However, over many years, there were so many first-hand things that I saw and heard, that put such an ache in my heart, that I simply drifted away. And we all continue to view, hear and see those that have the message, but not the follow-through, they can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Tis sad, so very say.

Someone mentioned a man of the cloth giving us their thoughts, it would be interesting to get some input from one of the spiritual leaders.

I can pray to God more effectivly when I'm gardening or painting. No canned service or people to distract me. We don't have to choose between God or church people. We can choose God, and leave the distractions behind.

Question for the masses. (pun intended)

Is a "church", the building and those in it, needed in order for "you" or "me" to worship God?

but as a former catholic who sometimes still drops in, I do enjoy going to just feeling the comfort it brings. I like going to other churches too, just to get a knew perspective of the teachings in the bible. I hadn't been in a while, my husband isn't christian and he doesn't like that I go. But I've started back recently to kinda ground myself and see what else I might learn along the way. As for the connection to God. I have allways felt that. I have allways prayed, and he has never let me down. People have, but never him.

Would you allow your child to attend a church, place of worship, that was of another faith then yours?

It is not up for debate. Live in my house, go to church where the family goes. And we find a church (have found, I should say) that suits us all, or at least the kids/teens, who are still so impressionable.

I have allowed my daughters to go to the temple where their friends worship Judaism and we have family members who became Seeks in college years ago. They have discussed their beliefs with them as well. Religion and faith is a personal choice, if you allow your children to experience different cultures and faiths; it removes prejudice brought by lack of knowledge. With my kids, they have a rich heritage with everything from Southern Baptists, Methodists, & Catholics in the family to Jews and Seeks. Who am I to tell them how to feel about god? I can set an example for them and give them the knowledge, but ultimately, I can’t chose their God any more than I can choose their mate. You can’t live it for them, you can only guide them and hope you’ve given them all they need.

My kid has gone to the Catholic, some sort of Islam, (I think) church, and anything else that he has wanted to. We have neighbors who are from Pakistan or somewhere close, whatever religion they are, they are good people. The kids have spent the night here and my kid there. The Mom has them in church all the time, so my son has gone to their church when he has spent the night. I think it is good, cause it lets the kids see that we are all the same. You don't have to be Christain to be good, neither do you have to be Islamic? is that how you spell it? I have found them to be good people. I want my child to know that people are good, no matter what they call their God. There have been so many terrible wars fought over ...what people call their God. Have you ever thought about it?

When I was about 12, on Sunday, our Preacher did a whole sermon on how the Methodist down the road were going to hell cause they just sprinkled and we Babtist put them under. It was the 1st time I felt something wasn't right in believing everything you heard at church. I asked my Father later that day about it. If there was ever a man I trusted with all my heart it was him. My Father who was head decon, ( I don't have/use/ spell check} what he thought. He made me feel so much better and it is the way I have lived my life. He said "being babtisted doesn't make you a good person, or what you call your God doesn't matter either, it is how you live your life. Thinking that because you call your God, Jesus, doesn't make you a better person than say someone who lives in Africa, has never heard of Jesus, but day to day, lives such a good life as far as being good to his fellow man, that it puts you to shame. Do you really think, you should go to Heaven, and that person be left behind? He was right. It is the goodness in your heart and how you live you life that counts. If you know you have done right, it doesn't matter what you call your God, or where you worship. God is with you, and be thankfull.

that someone taught us to think, and said it is ok to have different ideas about right and wrong, to form our own ideas about other people and cultures. That is tollarance(?) and compassion, and the making of a wonderfull world for our children.

We don't need the building or the churchy church people with their trite cliches.......and bad behavior. In fact the way churches are run today, they distract one from the true meaning.

What would it be like if ministers had a short sermon based on how you live the rest of the week? Not how you behave one hour a week, but the whole week.
If people see how you behave would they want to know anything about your religion? Would they stay clear and pretend not to see you in public?

For those of us that believe in the Blessed Trinity - The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, that is another sign from God that we should try to be community. I can truly understand if a person wishes to worship in the comfort of their own home, but as a christian that is exposed to what the world wants to offer me in regards to materialism, greed, gossip, I feel that I need to be held accountable for my actions when I steer away from the grace of God. I love my church, and am happy that I have brothers and sisters that will pray with me, for me, and let me have it when I truly need a strong word. I personally do not focus on a building, but rather the contents of the building. You never know what is inside someone's heart, and that person whom we think is a snob, might be living a very sad life. When I go to my church I focus on the Christ that gave His life for me, and that loves me unconditionally, not on if people gossip, if the parking lot is too crowded, etc. I prefer to take the plank out of my own eye first, than to look for splinters in other people's eyes.

Does God have a gender?
How do you know?
What is it and why?

Just stirring the pot-
MainFrame

God is for all of us...we are so different...he knows this, and is there for us in the best way to reach our hearts. Some of us do well one way and some the other...that is the way it is...this country was founded on religous tolarance. Because I am Southern Babptist, I don't feel everyone else is gonna die and go to hell. There are much better people than me out there, I just want to be good and if these people come by, well, maybe we will both be better off. I don't feel I am better because I call my God one thing and someone else calls theirs something else..

We've only got one shot at this.

Without churches we wouldn't have the Indy 500 in the parking lots.

I just love all of the "luv your fellow man", stuff and then to watch these people leave the parking lot.

Huh?

I must REALLY be out of it. I can't figure out the connection.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Do you really want your grandkids to go to church? Look at how churchy church people behave, is that what you want them to learn?

Well, yes. Yes, I do.

It kind of depends on which "churchy church people" you have in mind, doesn't it? Mixed in with the Torquemadas, the Benny Hinns and Kreflo Dollars are the Mother Theresas, Billy Grahams (he's the real item) and Sarah Smiths.

Sarah Smith is a fictional character in C.S. Lewis's THE GREAT DIVORCE. She is given an exalted role in heaven because of her humble (and behind-the-scenes) but faithful discipleship on earth. Churches are full of churchy church people who wouldn't give you the time of day. But there is likely at least one Sarah Smith in every congregation. I would like my grandchildren to meet and emulate her.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Why do we need to focus on the negative. I most certainly want my kids to go to church and learn to follow the Commandments : Remember to Keep Holy the Lord's Day. There are many people I would love my kids to have as role models, and as teenagers they already do. Pope John Paul II was loved universally, Billy Graham has been steadfast all his life preaching the Good News of Salvation, Mother Teresa - whom I was blessed to have met her many times, didn't care if a person had a bath in 3 months. If she needed to hug that person, she saw Christ in him. For the most part, all I have been reading is how people walk out of the church and do this and that. Remember "Be True to Thineself." That's all that matters. If others are "not true", they have to give account to their Higher Power. Let's just worry about me, myself and I.

Haven't you seen the demolition derby/Indy 500 just after the service in the church parking lot?

Everyone jockeying for position to be the next one out of the parking lot, blowing their horns, flipping each other the bird, cursing and cutting each other off?

They do the same thing on Wednesday nights when you drop your child off for CCD.

Honestly, I think they should film it and review it at next weeks service like a game film.

I'd bet that would be a quiet room, with a few people getting up and leaving.

I'm convinced the cop is there to break up fights, not direct traffic.

This is the behavior I see. These people can't even be nice for one full hour. If this is what going to church does to people count me out. This is the hateful and pious attitudes I was talking about. What gives?? I see them leave church, go to a store, or out to eat and be thourghly rude to everyone who gets "in their way".

I think the ministers spend too much time telling these people they are going to be forgiven. It seems to be implied that they can do whatever they want with no consequences. Most christians I have met here think it's a free for all....if it feels good do it. To which I say.. huh?

I don't think God calls us to be perfect. I think God does call on us to make an effort.

A favorite mantra of christians these days is "what would jesus do"?

What would jesus do? How would he treat his neighbors? How would he treat strangers? How would he treat the waitestaff? What would he teach his kids? Would he teach them that it is ok to do whatever you want ...as long as you don't caught??
How would jesus behave today?

I've seen the same thing.

But please don't overlook those people who have taken Christ's example to heart and are living it out.

I think the problem you see is often a result of a kind of sacred/secular distinction that people make. Their lives become compartmentalized, so that their "religion" consists primarily of a set of overtly Christian activities. There is a general failure to see that genuine conversion comes through the transformation of the mind itself--coming to cultivate a genuinely Christian Mind. This entails seeing EVERY dimension of one's life as falling within the domain of the "sacred"--if Christ is Lord at all, then he is Lord over all areas of life.

I've done a lot of woodwork and antique restoration in my day, and an analogy comes to mind. You can apply a varnish, which only coats the top but barely penetrates the grain. Or you can rub in an oil and stain for a fine finish. A stain that has been rubbed in is nearly impossible to rub out. Perhaps for the people you describe, their religion is varnish-like. For others, it is "rubbed in" and affects their very character.

(Boy, this "church" thread has stayed alive longer than I would have predicted.)

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

I have to keep looking for the Sara Smiths of the world, and ignore the rest.

It is so hard to see the good in christians these days.

Thanks man, you always get me calmed down. Then I'll read another post and get started all over again on my rant. My garden is calling.

longer than I would have predicted."

Muddle, do you think this is an indication of how many folks are truly seeking a place to go, people to fellowship with, people who really really take what they hear in the seats to the streets? I'm reading and hearing that many have questions, are seeking answers, but have been run off and turned off by those Sunday only christians.

I also find it interesting that a couple of comments have been made, even requests made, that some preacher might respond to this thread. I find it very interesting that there has been no commentary. Wonder if that means the preachers realize their folk ain't walking the walk?

It certainly is a wonderful thing that God grades with grace . . . cause looks like a lot of us know and believe, but still have questions.

I think most ministers are afraid to tackle the tough messages. They live by how their people tithe. If they had sermons that started with the quote I had on here earlier, what would happen?

I they started to hit people with the simple truth, and the golden rule what would happen. As muddle has said there are a few Sara Smiths and Mother Theresa's in every church. They are just so hard to see.

For most ministers their lives are a popularity contest. If their people don't like them, or the message, they will not tithe as much. Also if they continue with unpopular sermon topics the threat is very real that they will be asked to leave.

Most christians don't really want to hear that "their life and the way they live might be the only bible someone else reads." That is an awesome responsibility. I guess we have to all find our own way.
Just take care of ourselves and our behavior and look for the Sara Smiths of the world.

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I would guess that you are a catholic maybe? The image is sad and all too real. I would like to see the "game" film. Maybe it's just low blood sugar making the drivers cranky. I don't know. Maybe people just need to slow down and breath and think about the message they just heard before they get behind the wheel.

It's been a little while back since I went.

There is another acronym for it now. No clue.

It's funny that you caught that. We were sitting around the other night trying to remember what CCD stood for.

It is now Parish School of Religion. Many states still call it ccd.