Confraternity of Christian Doctrine? something like that. We had a lot of acronyms for it growing up too. The nuns that taught us were pretty boring. something to be said for the way these new churches teach the scriptures. At least they hold the kids attention for more than three minutes before they glaze over.

Rude drivers coming out of the church lots?

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

No, you don't sound like an idiot - quite the contrary. You seem to have a real grasp on what most of us struggle with. What is our purpose here? I'm sure it's not to judge others - after all, how can I judge the splinter in your eye when I have a log in my own? All I know is, I was put on this earth to glorify my heavenly Father, and tell others about Him. Not to force Him down anyone's throat, just to tell (or, since I am a horrible speaker, I just try to show). The last church I attended had a handful of people who were only happy if they were complaining about something or someone - you know the kind - the ones who would complain if you hung them with a new rope. Anyway, those few people made for a miserable environment and ultimately ran everyone off. I have visited just about every church in Fayette County, and finally found one where I feel I can contribute (other than just warming a seat). I have yet to hear a single complaint - I take that back - some complain the music is too loud - but I can deal with that. Earplugs for everyone!

I wish you well on your search.

Not a visual I needed so early in the morning, but it was hilarious! Thanks for the perspective and the chuckle muddle.

Well, which "visual" soured your breakfast: butt crack girl or bearded middle-aged guy in a thong (in church)?

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Wasn't ruining my breakfast enough? Ok now I'm really chuckling. It was really the image of anyone showing up at church in a thong. Butt crack girl was bad enough. We see that everyday though with the low cut jeans the girls are wearing.

I don't know what grandma's church is since there are so many types of grandmas, but I must assume you mean your grandma, or the ones you know.
Organized religion, especially the type we had from 1700 until about 1960, is prety much history. The catholics have stopped much of the latin services and interference in governments; the fundamentalists have almost quit snake handling, picking up hot Ben Franklin coal stoves, rolling in the aisle, mumbling diatribes, speaking in "unknown tongues;" and for the most part, not asking, but demanding considerable money, as a way to get rich.
I have little knowledge of the Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and scores of other organized religions and their old comparisons with today.
Churches used to put "the fear of God" into you when you attended, and something worse when you didn't attend, until you finally left them. Now they try to entertain you and make a modern social event of church. Once church is out---Katy, bar the door! Actually, no formal organized church existed (a building that is) during the time of the New Testament, at least no where near what we now have. Maybe we need to get back to that and not try to tell people anything,unless they ask us, about religion. We don't know much for sure, and others don't much trust our "faith", when they see how we really live.

Right. There are diverse traditions--and diverse grandmas.

My comments are, I suppose, focused on those traditions that fall within the broad definition of "evangelical." The watershed division there, going back to the first and second Great Awakenings, is between "confessional" and "populist" (or "revivalist") groups. The revivalism that emerged from the Second Great Awakening in particular (right at the opening of the 19th century), spawned an anti-intellectual, anti-theological, and ahistorical approach, the offspring of which may be seen in much or most of the contemporary evangelical "seeker-friendly" movement.

The "Grandma's church" that I have in mind maintains that the MIND should be engaged just as surely as should the HEART (and, I suppose, the endocrine system).

I tried for many years to hang in there in churches that were evolving toward this seeker-friendly, feel good model. (Consider Joel Osteen, pastor of the largest church in America. When he is not spouting a theologically absurd and empirically false "propsperity gospel," his messages are reducible to a watered-down, vaguely Christian pop psychology. I tuned in a few weeks ago to hear him speak from the pulpit on "Your Perfect Weight." Unmitigated trash, but it sells. And the reason it sells is that the gospel is repackaged and marketed to an American audience that cannot sustain a religion that truly engages the MIND and speaks of MORAL TRANSFORMATION that comes of "the renewing of the mind.")

I stayed with it as my kids were growing up, but found that my cynicism grew ever sharper.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

I wish I could find just one that measures their "success" in the way their people behave outside of church.

I believe in God, but I don't believe in people who say they are christians.......because of the way they act and treat other people.

I heard a quote many years ago that went something like this.."your life and the way you live it might be the only bible another person reads......what are they reading?"

skyspy, that makes you really stop and think. Your right, more people should think about how they live their daily lives. Going to church on Sunday just to project an image isn't enough. People just get wrapped up in the day to day reactions in life and forget what they heard on Sunday. We should all try a little harder to project christian values if we're christian and not project them at people or onto people, but just be true to our beliefs if we really embrace them at our core and the rest will follow. As for grandmas church, I still enjoy going to mass at the catholic church every now and then, and I enjoy going to the services at churches like Southside.
I'm seeking knowlege of the message and I'll take it in what ever form it comes in as long as it sinks in. I just hope I'm not one of the people you describe. I would like to leave my world a little better than how I found it and hope to touch peoples lives in a positive way.

Hey while I'm at it. Muddle, I admire you! Your knowlege and intelect are very stimulating and you often throw stuff out there that makes me pause and think too. Thanks!

Those that sit on the front row on Sunday morning, are probably the ones that will . . .stick it to you the quickest on Monday morning. I do like the quote. If the so-called church goers, do-gooders realized they are running more of us off than they are gaining . . . When my child was little and we'd discuss christian behavior, feelings, the top 10, etc. kid would say, 'well the rest of them aren't reading the same book we are', outta the mouths of babes.

Christians especially the ones in PTC have no idea how offensive their behaviour is.

I used to attend church regularly, until I moved here. Now I attend meetings run by Buddhists.....at least they are sincere.....and they live what they preach.

I see the way people behave in PTC everyday.....that tells me everything I need to know about their hate filled churches and the god they serve. The god they serve is not my god.

All you have to do is look at the way they treat people and the way they teach others to treat people. They have done more to turn off people to christ, than any other community I have ever lived in.

This is a question for any minister on here or Father Epps since he has a column.....what does God say about people who turn off others to christ? I know he spells it out in the Bible....but I can't remember where it is....but it's not good. Something for you pious idiots to think about.

Who qualifies?

Me?

I'm hoping not.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

You seem to be the kind of person who thinks analytically and critically. You live carefully. You think before you react.

Muddle you are anything but pious. You are our resident learned blogger who challenges us to think. I have yet to see you "get on your high horse" with anyone.

I was just questioning or perhaps trying to point out the huge difference between the behavior I see everyday, and the facade that people have built up or want to believe about their community.

Maybe I shouldn't point out the huge cavern that I see between what people say, and profess here, and what is actually carried out on a dailey basis.

Watching the news tonight brought home another shocker the city of Roswell was listed as no.18 on the list of safest cities. Do you know where PTC and Fayetteville were?? Me either, because they didn't go any higher on the list than no.18.

I wish people would stop to think about how their behavior reflects their belief system. Not what they say their belief system is, but what their true beliefs are, as demonstrated by their actions. I wish they could see how transparent they are.

Thanks.

The reason I asked is because in this thread and others I've made it pretty obvious that I operate from a Christian worldview perspective.

And despite my current unchurched funk, I believe in the church.

What you say here and in an earlier post is very true and important: the gap between Christian profession and actual practice is often appalling and repulsive. And it is tempting to discredit both the person and the profession on that basis.

But I am brought back to my senses when I remember a passage from C.S. Lewis's SCREWTAPE LETTERS. Screwtape advises Wormwood to keep his man's thoughts on the hypocrisy and vices of the people in the next pew. But he must keep the following thought from occurring to him:

"If I, being what I am, can consider that I am in some sense a Christian, why should the different vices of those people in the next pew prove that their religion is mere hypocrisy and convention?"

That said, in an earlier post you raised a question for "ministers" as to what the Bible says about people who drive others away because of their behavior. I can offer a partial answer to that, anyway. Consider this passage from Romans 2:

"If you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—-you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

I find the comments on the worship style of the people that voiced their opinion not fair to what worship truly is. God has made each Christain and person different. The way we worship does not have anything to do with our love for Christ. There are alot of churches to pick from if Southside is not your style of worship. This is not the only church in our area. I support this church 100% even though I am a member at another church. As Christains we need to lift each other up, we are one body. Our focus should be Jesus, not the style of worship.As far as what we wear to church, what is wrong not dressing up for church if our worship is from our heart to God. God does want us as Christain to dress in an decent manner, but when we go to church, God looks at our heart. Worship is to God- through songs and sermons. I grew up loving rock style music, maybe yours is more traditional, or country style- it's the lyrics that count and our heart prepared in a manner of worship to God. God wants us to reach as many people for Him and I thank Him for music that is for Him in the style that He knows that's it's my way of worship to Him. Not only do we worship in music it is also in the sermon, and all Pastors have different ways to reach people for Jesus. Let's pray for this church that God will reach them and people will come to know and accept Jesus- this is the most important thing.

What has He got to do with any kind of music? He didn't play any instrument, not even a flute. He didn't need flashing lights, plays, hand clapping, jumping up and down, and fried chicken.
Sound almost like Rome and the hundred gods! It's about fun, not self learning.

What has He got to do with any kind of mucic? He didn't play any instrument, not even a flute. He didn't need flashing lights, plays, hand clapping, jumping up and down, and fried chicken.
Sound almost like Rome and the hundred gods!

Or, so said Marshall McLuhan.

"It's the lyrics that count" is probably true, but I think there are limits.

Suppose you are asked to recite some poetry at the funeral of your friend, Fred. You think on it, and come up with....
a LIMERICK!

There once was a fellow named Fred
We liked him a lot, but he's dead....

Not every FORM is compatible with every CONTENT and CONTEXT.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

Who have never heard of Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Buhda, etc.? If Christ is the way to heaven and you have never heard of him (pygmy in asia etc.) can you still go to heaven? What happens to them after they die?

Just stirring the pot-
MainFrame

At the gate there is a sign with a chart. It reads: "You must be at least this tall to enter this ride." Sorry.

Most thinking Christian people have worried over this very question.

Actually, the Bible itself seems to teach that the basis of their judgment is the law that is "written upon their own hearts" (Romans ch. 2). What this further entails--whether salvation for them is a possibility or no--is more than I know.

One view that attracts some Christian people who worry about the problem you raise is called "inclusivism." According to this, (a) it remains true that it is only through the sacrifice of Christ that anyone is forgiven, but (b) it is possible for Christ's sacrifice to atone even for those who have never heard of Christ (perhaps on the ground that, knowing the heart, God knows if the person would accept Christ upon hearing, or perhaps there is something to the person's disposition that is common to explicit saving faith).

One thing is certain: if God is indeed the being that Christians take him to be, WHATEVER criterion used and judgment made, it will be just.

Image: Child's author Bill Peet's "Whingdingdilly"

under construction. Muddle is much further along his walk than I am, but I recently read Robert Fulgrum's (sp?) book "It was on fire when I laid down". This is the followup to his "All I need to know I learned in Kindergarten".

To the point, he has a chapter in there that speaks to human frailty. The mystery of why we want to be one thing (in this case, Christianity) and just can't help ourselves.

Bottom line, it's a journey.

The Screwtape Letters was one of my favorite books. I had forgotten all about the paragraph you referenced. Looks like I need to read it again.

Thanks also for the Bible passage, I figured you would know where to find it.

You are right I need to stop worrying about how other people live. Turn the other cheek and move on. Thanks for helping me snap out of it.

All I know is, I love my church. I've never loved any church before (especially my grandma's, or for that matter, my parents). Being raised in an incredibly strict So. Baptist church, where half the members were cheating on their spouses, and if I saw one of them at a liquor store, it was Katy-bar-the-door (so they could gossip about ME being there), etc. I'm at a church now where we all know we are sinners, we all know we aren't perfect - far from it - but we love each other, and we love God, and I feel comfortable in this church environment. The music is loud and the lights are down so I can sing as loud as I want, dance if I want, and don't have to feel "embarassed" about worshiping. I hear a message that is meaningful to my life - it makes me think, and makes me want to be a better person. I get involved with activities outside of the worship service so I get to know people. In "grandma's church" I left feeling "I hate church", and when I was old enough I quit going. I'm just thrilled my kids love going to church - and invite their friends - that's reason enough for me!

And those are good reasons. I would never attempt to persuade you out of them. (We attempted the same thing for a time when our kids were in their teens at a church that boasted that their "organ" is a Fender Stratocaster. Even they recoiled from the idea of singing the Monkees' "I'm a Believer" and "Amazing Grace" (to the tune of the Eagle's "Peaceful Easy Feeling") during the "worship" service.

The kind of background that you describe (two parts judgmentalism to one part hypocrisy) is, of course, far from attractive. That is the sort of place that my generation reacted against, resulting in the whole contemporary thing.

But is the "pop culture" approach to religion the solution? Indeed, is it the only alternative? The old approach had a dose of theology, combined with judgmentalism. And it kept an eye on tradition, but mingled that with closed-mindedness. Is the solution to pitch out theology and tradition?

And, if Ronald Sider's new book, THE SCANDAL OF THE EVANGELICAL CONSCIENCE is to be believed, it does not appear that the switch to the new format has changed things in terms of the cultivation of virtues.

I think the purpose of Southside is to draw in the unbelievers, not necessarily cater to the already churched. The message is relevant and entertaining. The music is professional, and is geared towards the current trend.

Of course it's all about worshipping, but you must first get folks in the door.