Some Thoughts on Race: Part One

muddle's picture

As I mentioned in some other posts, I am interested in thinking out loud with some of you on the issue of racism and race relations. I would love to see a lively and honest discussion on the part of people of good will--even people of good will who disagree.

I begin by laying out several principles that I take to be true and which will be at work, either explicitly or implicitly, in what I have to say.

The issue is morally charged, and a profitable discussion is impossible apart from conscious attention to whatever moral principles are involved.

So I lay bare those with which I am working.

I originally intended to sit down and write a complete essay that began by laying out these principles, and then applying them to thoughts on race relations. But this first section proved to be long and time-consuming. I'll post these as a sort of set of "prolegomena." From these, you'll be able to predict much of what I will say when I post "Part Two."

Some Principles for Thinking ABout Race Relations

·Moral Realism.

Most basic is the conviction that there are such things as objective moral facts. Some actions are right and others wrong, and the rightness or wrongness of actions is not merely a matter of opinion or taste. Thus, moral relativism, in its varieties, is false though fashionable. For instance, rape (or slavery or child molestation, etc.) is wrong, and it is wrong regardless of the cultural context in which it may occur. And some character traits really are virtues (i.e., they ought to be cultivated), whereas others really are vices (they are morally undesirable). (If you disagree on this first point, then you might as well stop reading here. Reason: a discussion on race relations takes place in a moral context. If you don’t believe that there are objective moral facts, then you have nothing interesting to say about how people regard and treat each other.)

·Respect-for-Persons/Human Dignity.

But if there is a difference between right and wrong, what constitutes that difference? What makes right actions right and wrong actions wrong? That is, what is the supreme moral principle that defines the essence of morality? I accept—and am prepared to defend—the Principle of Respect-for-Persons. A right action is one that treats others with respect, and a wrong action is one that fails to do so. Immanuel Kant put it this way: “Always treat humanity as an end-in-itself and never merely as a means to an end.”

The idea is that persons have a special sort of value just in virtue of their being persons. Kant calls this value or worth “dignity.” Indeed, there are two kinds of value that something might have: dignity or price. To say that something has a price is to say that its worth is reducible to a kind of “market value.” My guitar, for instance, has a price. It makes sense to talk about its worth in dollars, or its comparable worth for trading or bartering. The value of a person, on the other hand, is not reducible to any sort of “price”—whether it is literally a “cash value,” or their “performance” or “contribution” to society.

To treat someone “merely as a means to an end,” then, is to regard or treat them as though their worth is reducible to mere “price.” It is to treat a person merely as a means to one’s personal goals or ends. Indeed, it is to treat a person as though he or she is a mere thing, a stepping-stone. The wrongness of the most obviously wrong actions, such as rape, genocide or slavery are best explained on the basis of this principle: all are instances of treating a person as a mere thing.

The notion of human dignity implies that, while there may be such a thing as a useless person, there is no such thing as a worthless person. And this is because worth is not a function of performance. Dignity is not reducible to price.

Personhood, of course, transcends ethnicity, and so the Principle of Respect-for-Persons has direct and profound implications for the ways in which we regard and treat persons of different race or color.

In a broader context, I argue that persons have this worth because they are created in the image of God. There is no room in an atheistic view of things for the idea of human dignity. Where, after all, would we get it on a view that begins with an inexplicable Big Bang, and explains the emergence of human consciousness as a by-product of a particular, ultimately accidental, arrangement of particles? Indeed, I find here the grounds for the plausibility of theism. If the concept of human dignity makes sense only in a universe that includes God, and if the wrongness of an act like rape requires appeal to the notion of human dignity, then it follows that we can coherently say that rape is (objectively) wrong only if God exists.

Further, the idea of human dignity as created in God’s image is what lies behind the Christian command to love persons unconditionally. Unconditional love—which takes in even a love for one’s enemies—is not a feeling of affection for a scoundrel like Osama Bin Laden. It is a moral attitude of regard for the dignity of the person who has been created in God’s image. (Conditional “love” is more a matter of “liking” or being attracted to a person because you stand to gain something out of the relationship. Presumably, if they cease to perform in the desired way, all bets are off.)

· The Principle of Equality.

“Equals should be treated equally, and any differences in treatment must be based upon morally relevant differences between the people in question.” Women in the work place sometimes complain about a “glass ceiling” that keeps them from rising to the highest levels. It is “glass” because it is “transparent”—that is, there is no discernible reason why they should not be promoted just like their male colleagues.

An employer who will only hire or promote members of his own race (or gender) is probably in violation of the Principle of Equality. There are exceptions, I think. The fact that the NFL does not include female players probably does not reflect an insidious male chauvinism. Women (typically and happily) do not display the size and strength of your typical linebacker, and simply could not compete. Or consider the casting director for a film, who is responsible for hiring actors. Suppose the movie is “Glory”—about the black Massachusetts regiment. If she hires Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman, but turns down Kevin Costner “because he’s white,” Kevin has no legitimate complaint to lodge. Or suppose the owner of a Chinese restaurant aims to create a certain ambiance, and a part of that is to have all Asian staff. His refusal to hire blue-eyed Scandinavian types is probably not evidence of racism.

“Morally relevant differences” are things like merit or need. If two employees put in for a promotion, and only one is promoted, it makes sense to explain that he has been with the company longer or that he has been faithful to the company or is always coming up with good ideas or has a more advanced college degree. It does not make sense to explain, “Well, he’s white and you’re not” (or vice versa).

The Principle of Equality is, obviously, what immediately grounds the wrongness of racism. All instances of racism are violations of this principle, which, in turn, is a violation of the highest principle of Respect-for-Persons. The Principle of Equality also directly implies, I think, that hiring quotas and such that are based upon race are immoral.

(This principle also has implications, I think, for our treatment of non-human animals. You see a guy torturing a cat. You attempt to intervene and tell him that what he is doing is wrong. He replies, “It is just a cat! It can’t think like us, nor can it talk!” The proper reply, I think, is that the ability to reason or speak is irrelevant here. The only relevant question to ask is, “Can it suffer?”)

· Moral Responsibility.

With some possible exceptions, people are responsible for their own characters and behaviors. We are not mere programmed by-products of our environments or our genes. When a family took a wrong turn down a Los Angeles street a few years ago, and they were surrounded by gang members who shot and killed their infant daughter, we cannot reasonably excuse the atrocity on the grounds that they grew up in bad circumstances. It is possible to know that “Killing babies is wrong,” regardless of the circumstances of your upbringing.

This general conviction runs against the grain of current thought, which seeks either a gene or a set of extenuating circumstances—or some combination—that would explain and exonerate everything from infidelity (the “infidelity gene”) to pedophilia.

There may well be exceptions, as in the case of mental illness. One is bewildered by the actions of a mother who systematically drowns her children, and it is tempting to think that only someone who is beyond the pale, mentally speaking, would do such a thing.

But (and there are exceptions here as well, I suppose), holding someone responsible for their actions is consistent with acknowledging that, at the time of the behavior, they could not distinguish right from wrong. I follow Aristotle (and, I suppose, C.S. Lewis) here. It may be possible for me to make a series of incremental, consciously wrong actions, the cumulative effect of which is the creation of a vicious character and a muted conscience. I may be to blame for the fact that my conscience no longer speaks to me.

· “Wickedness”.

This is a corollary from the point above. Socrates said, “Knowledge is sufficient for virtue.” What he meant was that everyone always does whatever seems right to each. No one ever knowingly does what is wrong. The reason some people actually do the wrong thing is that they mistake the merely apparent right for the actual right. The “cure” for immorality proposed by Socrates was a “science of measurement,” that would allow people accurately to distinguish right from wrong. Accurate knowledge of that difference guarantees morally correct behavior—which is precisely the point of saying “knowledge is sufficient for virtue.”

On Socrates’ theory, the difference between, say, Mother Theresa and Brian Nichols, is not ultimately moral in nature. Rather, it is a matter of what each knows, which is to say that the moral is reducible to the epistemological. Socrates’ theory is but one member of a large family of such theories of human behavior that would reduce the moral to the non-moral in one way or another.

I believe that the moral differences between, say, Mother Theresa and say, Brian Nichols, are irreducibly moral in nature. It is not that Mother Theresa simply knows something that Nichols does not. Moral wrongdoing springs from a corrupt will, not a deficiency in one’s store of knowledge. Moral depravity is an irreducible category that resists analysis into something else. In short, there is such a thing as wickedness.

Suppose that I see that doing something, like telling the truth in a certain situation, is what I ought morally to do, but it will not make me personally happy. A person of good moral character is willing to subordinate personal happiness to moral duty. A vicious person, on the other hand, places personal happiness over moral duty and will do the morally right thing only if it coincides with personal happiness. I believe the difference between two such characters is moral, and irreducibly so.

And I am inclined to think that, far from what Socrates maintained, it is possible to be so depraved as to do the morally wrong thing simply because it is the morally wrong thing to do—even if there is nothing in particular to be gained from it. This is utter depravity of the sort that Milton ascribed to Satan, who is found saying, “Evil, be thou my good.”

· “Do Not Judge.”

Christ taught that we are not to “judge” others. This is popularly—and quite mistakenly—taken to mean that we are never to say of someone else that what they are doing is wrong or that they have a bad character. This interpretation is nonsense. If I am permitted to believe that some actions are right and that some character traits are virtues, then it follows from this that other actions are wrong and other character traits are vices. This interpretation turns Jesus into one of today’s shallow moral relativists.

Rather, the command is not to play the role of God in, essentially, consigning the person to hell for their behavior. It is to refrain from the temptation to regard the person of bad behavior or character as worthless—a “waste of skin.” And this command follows from the Christian view of human dignity as created in God’s image, and the command to love unconditionally.

C. S. Lewis offered a good insight on this in his BBC talks, which became the book Mere Christianity. He distinguished between a person’s “will” and the “raw material” that they have to work with. You may have been raised by loving parents, who administered just the right kind of discipline. Further, you might have been graced with a great set of genes. The result may be that being a basically decent person comes quite naturally and easily for you. I, on the other hand (quite contrary to fact) might have been raised in an abusive, alcoholic home where I was ill-treated in any number of ways. All of my role models may have been despicably dishonest cheats and scoundrels. Further, I might have physiologically-based tendencies toward anger and aggression. For me, just mustering that minimal level of moral behavior that amounts to “common decency” may require effort. In fact, what may be true is that if you, with your enviable “raw material” were to exert as much moral effort that it takes me just to be minimally decent, you would be a saint. (And it may well be that God will hold you accountable for not having exerted your will so as to employ your fortunate gifts in just such a way.) What none of us ever knows is the full truth about the relation between the will and the varying raw materials that each has to work with. And so no one is in a position to pass such judgment on others.

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muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 10:57am.

Here’s a bit more on my own brush with Affirmative Action hiring policies.

As I said in an earlier post, the job market in my own discipline of philosophy has been flooded for a long time—at least two decades. Major universities are cranking out Ph.D.’s faster than the retirement rate of those at the other end. So that in itself makes for some rather cutthroat competition. Many highly competent people find that they cannot land a job in the field for which they studied so hard.

Now fold into the mix the additional feature of Affirmative Action.

Philosophy is often perceived as a male-dominated discipline. It is simply true that more males than females are attracted to it. More than that, the discipline is mostly populated by Caucasians. At least in this country, a minority member who has gone the distance and earned a philosophy Ph.D. is a rare and precious commodity.

Given the emphasis upon Affirmative Action, departments around the country are very anxious to reflect the proper proportion of males to females, and of whites to minorities. This means, of course, that, all other things being equal, a female candidate stands a better chance than a male candidate, and a minority candidate is a shoo-in.

If you are black and female and a philosopher, then you are virtually guaranteed a teaching position so long as you have not had a recent lobotomy or committed a recent felony for which you have not repented (though absolution is easy to obtain during the interview process).

If you are black and female and tell them that you are a lesbian, they’ll not only hire you, they’ll create a specialization just for you: The History of Black Lesbian Philosophy. (Of course, since the number of black lesbian philosophers may likely be counted on one hand, there is not a great deal of material to master here).

This leaves people like me. I am white, straight, and, to make matters worse, Christian.

White, straight philosophers are a dime a dozen. The air is thick with them so that you have to swat them away like flies. And most secular philosophers aren’t quite sure what to make of the notion of a “Christian philosopher--which strikes them as oxymoronic.

I have friends who are widely published in peer-reviewed journals, have earned their Ph.D.s and gathered the highest accolades, but they have given up on trying to find a job teaching. They are simply the wrong color and gender.

One possible ploy is to claim, “I am a black lesbian trapped in the body of a white male.” This would score several points just for weirdness, and could tip the scale at places like Berkeley or UW-Madison (my alma mater).


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 12:30pm.

Perhaps it is easy to recognize in the pantomimes of the gangster rappers. But I am sure that there is a white, upper-class version of the same juvenile attitude that is alive and well and living in PTC. It just hasn't had quite the press.

Almost missed this. We were discussing this the other evening. There would not be drug dealers on the golf cart paths of PTC if there were not drug buyers waiting for them. Parents need to take a good look at their children - and themselves. I worked for several years at a middle/upper middle class school in Los Angeles. It became fashionable to do 'drugs' in the home for SOME parents. The children were aware of this - and followed the action of their 'role models'. Today's role models outside of the home 'joke' about drug usage - and brag about rehabilitation. What our youth do not realize is that not everyone can be rehabilitated. . .and the press needs to do their constituents a favor - and deal with this issue. It may save lives.

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 12:22pm.

Perhaps it is easy to recognize in the pantomimes of the gangster rappers. But I am sure that there is a white, upper-class version of the same juvenile attitude that is alive and well and living in PTC. It just hasn't had quite the press.

Almost missed this. We were discussing this the other evening. There would not be drug dealers on the golf cart paths of PTC if there were not drug buyers waiting for them. Parents need to take a good look at their children - and themselves. I worked for several years at a middle/upper middle class school in Los Angeles. It became fashionable to do 'drugs' in the home for SOME parents. The children were aware of this - and followed the action of their 'role models'. Today's role models outside of the home 'joke' about drug usage - and brag about rehabilitation. What our youth do not realize is that not everyone can be rehabilitated. . .and the press needs to do their constituents a favor - and deal with this issue. It may save lives.

Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 7:08pm.

I moved here from up north. All of the problems that we are having in Atlanta, just were not an obvious problem. Everyone talked the same. They worked together and played together outside of work. There was no talk of the "race card". I didn't know what the "race card was until I moved to Atlanta.

I'm sorry to say that Atlanta is the city that has taught me to hate.
Because of ruined communities, and the "race card".

It seems to me like the black community does not try to succeed, in fact they seem to look for things to ruin.

Sorry I'm so negative, but that is all I have seen here: excuses, race card, crime, neighborhoods ruined.

ps: where is the pumpkin?

Submitted by SadFayette on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 7:45am.

I agree with Skyspy; I didn't know about the race card until I came here either. The problems with race are deep. You have the NAACP and SCV and neither wants love or integration, just special interest. I don't see any outreach to me and my family from black families, even when we try to outreach. Atlanta, in my opinion, is a failure and the comment that the Atlanta spread to Columbus is probably right but don't forget Macon. Neighboring Houston County (home of Sonny) has explosive growth, explained only by white flight from Macon. Atlanta will soon overcome Fayette and it is inevitable.

Look at the Olympics. We turned it into a sidewalk carnival freak show. We have no downtown, just stuff spread everywhere, plunk down in the middle of housing projects. And Atlanta idolizes Andrew Young who in one sentence expresses racial venom towards Jews, Asians and Arabs. But that's ok because he's black. Atlanta "the city too busy to hate ????" You gotta be kidding me. Too many Andys's.

Longest commutes in the country; developers like Reese/Pace/Black vomiting huge developments all over Atlanta with politicians like Logsdon giving it away.....The Party is Over....

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 8:15am.

SaFayette writes,

"I don't see any outreach to me and my family from black families, even when we try to outreach."

As long as the Cynthia McKinneys and Andrew Youngs claim to speak for the black community, then this will be your continued experience.
McKinney and Young speak the language of bitterness, hatred and resentment.

I'm convinced that the majority of blacks who reside in Fayette county wish only to be afforded the respect that they deserve as fellow human beings. They certainly aren't gangsters or thugs. My black neighbors have never stolen melons from my garden. I suspect that many or most regard McKinney as something of an embarrassment.

But bitterness begets bitterness; resentment spawns resentment. White racists may square off against black racists. They should: they are two of a kind.

Meanwhile, I and my neighbors are about to move into our second decade together as neighbors and friends.


kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 10:33am.

I know that a positive attitude helps when dealing with a negative situation. If we as whites *only* remember and focus on positive interaction we've had with people of color, then maybe in 100 years or so we'll forget ALL the negative interactions...like when the kids from Harmony Village stole my sons' bike,basketballs,scooter, and when the nice black gentleman broke into my husband's 85 yr old Grandmother's home and locked her in the bathroom while he ransacked her home and took all her valuables. Then there's the time in the early 90's when my Aunt was robbed at gunpoint at an ATM machine by a polite black man and his girlfriend. I have no recolection of anyone I know being robbed or stolen from by a white person. They say perception *IS* reality...this is my reality. You came here from up north...Atlanta natives see things a little differently.

Having nice, decent, lawabiding black neighbors would be a great thing for us all...but as I've said before...that doesn't erase or excuse the inappropriate actions of so many blacks that form our opinions.


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 2:21pm.

. . .we could play the 'top this' game in discussing mistreatment by members of another race - and believe me, I would win. My encounter with racist whites started from the day I was born in a hospital that had a 'restrictive covenant'. Fortunately, the doctors and nurses ignored the ignorance of such documents - and I was delivered in a safe, sterile environment that was supposed to be for 'whites only'. My birth certificate states that I am 'Ethiopian' - since the covenant stated that Negroes (the term for African Americans in that time) could not be admitted to this hospital. This was not in the South - but in the North! From there it just gets worse. . . constant name calling by persons (children) who don't even know me - but because of the color of my skin - I must be a n-----ger; traveling through the US and being denied access to restaurants (Portland, Oregon); not being allowed to drink water at a gas station (Oklahoma); watching as a 'white' man tried to 'kiss' my mother - and the anger of the black men watching - knowing that they couldn't do anything about it. (California) The indignity of visiting relatives in Texas and having to sit in the balcony because the 'coloreds' couldn't sit on the main floor. . .not to mention having to sit on the back of the bus; or only visit public entertainment facilities on 'colored folk day'. And then there are the members of my family who were lynched, raped, and bombed. (The bombing occurred in California in the '50's) Don't tell me that 'blacks' are more forgiving, intelligent, tolerant, than 'white' folk. Don't tell me that you have never met any 'law abiding' black folks in Peachtree City. I have many black friends who live in beautiful homes in Peachtree City - and are highly respected by their neighbors. For your information - you now know of one black person who was robbed by a white person .. . me. I hope you are not saying that because the robbers you describe as 'nice' and/or polite means that black people don't have to act like 'thugs' to be criminals. The white man who took my wallet was dressed in a suit, tie, and drove an expensive car.

I'm sorry that you have not had any positive experiences with 'law abiding' black folks. That is the problem with self imposed segregation. I just find it hard to believe that neither in Peachtree City or Fayetteville - one cannot have at least one positive interaction with a law abiding black person. I frequent the restaurants in both cities - and I have never been the only black person in the restaurant. I have seen the law enforcement officials working in both communities - and I can honestly say that I have seen them arresting whites, hispanics, and blacks. After saying this - I must admit that I have run into some 'good ole boys' and their hateful attitude while here in Georgia. But they are in a minority. And I no longer have to fear them as I did when I was a child. The attitudes of those who must feel superior because of the color of their skin is interesting to me. I do not feel that you have this attitude - and you are honestly relating your feelings based on your experiences.

I'm not going to allow my reality of ignorance expressed by some Americans in this country to rob me of the freedom of enjoying the progress that has been made in race relations over the years. Fortunately, the Atlanta natives that I have met do not see things as you do. (White and black) But I must accept the reality of your experiences - and hope that others will have an opportunity to reach out to others and 'try' to communicate with those of a different color - but similar interests. The churches in both communities have excellent outreach programs - and some blacks in the area attend integrated churches.

The church in the black community has been segregated since the founding of our country. This is the most difficult institution to integrate - because the black church has been the foundation of the African American culture.

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 4:04pm.

My dad grew up in Miamisburg, Ohio. He told me that back in the early 50s the town had a billboard up at one or more of the city limits:

"Nig_er, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on You in This Town."

I am old enough to recall "White Only" signs on bathrooms.

Try hard as I might (and I do), I'm not sure that I can get my mind around what it takes to be gracious as an African American while harboring such memories.

Even more difficult for me to understand is how others could have imaginations so impoverished as not to understand how it is possible for a smoldering resentment to be handed down to new generations.

One step further: if there continue to exist people with the attitude that was behind such signs, is it rocket science to understand lingering anger among blacks?


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 6:25pm.

It took a lot of guidance from teachers, parents, and clergymen to overcome the hurt and anger that resulted from the indignities suffered under the 'color of the law' back in those days. It is also easier to 'go on' when one has benefited from the passage of the civil rights laws and Title 9. (Women's' rights) Most people that I meet recognize that indignities are now the result of individuals - and not the government or a 'race' of people. However - when we see legislators and/or organizations trying to diminish the advancements that have been made since the '60's - it becomes easier to return to the rhetoric that goes along with hate and anger. For those who have never benefited from the civil rights movement - the actions of individuals represent an entire race to them. There are those (minorities) who actually encounter some of this same rhetoric today. So I'm sure that what 'whites' hear is a response. . .and an inability to understand that nothing is gained by doing unto them what was done unto you. An excellent example of 'forgiving' is the reconciliation movement in South Africa. It has only been a few years since the end of Apartheid - and I can't believe the progress that has been made in that country. They are almost where we are now - with many of the same problems in adjusting to an integrated society. Segregation became illegal in this country over 40 years ago. . . .and we're still struggling with 'reconciliation'. I cringe when I hear people say they would like to return to the 'good ole days of segregation. They don't know what they're talking about.

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 1:40pm.

Hi, Sandra.

I would like to talk with you about Affirmative Action. Up front, I’ll say that I am in two minds about it. Let me try to summarize the argument for it, then an argument against it, and then offer some observations, including a personal anecdote.

I think that the basic argument for such programs as Affirmative Action (as well as forced busing, etc.) is that they are a means to the end of breaking the vicious cycle that was put in place by earlier systematic oppression, in the form of slavery followed by segregation and all that it entails. The argument is that the continued disparity between whites and blacks (with the obvious exceptions) is the unfortunate legacy of those earlier times.

An analogy is appropriate. Imagine a footrace between two contestants. The starting gun goes off, and one bolts from the line and onto the track. The other tries, but is restrained (by friends of the now-running contestant). They hold him for a time as their friend rounds the bend and is close to completing his first lap. Then, they let him go to run and attempt to catch up.

Shall we say that things are fair now, since both runners are free to run according to their ability? Of course not! The situation can only be rectified by doing things that, under normal circumstances, would seem unfair. We either halt the guy with the head start, or we stick the other guy in a Buick and drop him off at the point where the other guy is currently running.

Simply stopping segregation (and other racist policies) and doing nothing else to right previous wrongs is not sufficient. If the parents and/or grandparents in the home were not afforded the same opportunities as their white counterparts in their day, then this has consequences (in attitudes, habits and behaviors) that are passed down from generation to generation. The problem is systemic and must be addressed as such.

The very presence of a racial imbalance, when it comes to desirable roles in our society, is evidence of either a continued racism or of the (perhaps unintended) lingering consequences of earlier injustices.

Now, to argue the other side. In my overlong diatribe, “Some Thoughts on Race,” I mentioned the Principle of Equality: “Equals should be treated equally, and any differences in treatment must be based upon morally relevant differences between the people in question.” And I added this comment: “The Principle of Equality is, obviously, what immediately grounds the wrongness of racism. All instances of racism are violations of this principle, which, in turn, is a violation of the highest principle of Respect-for-Persons. The Principle of Equality also directly implies, I think, that hiring quotas and such that are based upon race are immoral.”

The opposing argument, then, is that Affirmative Action violates the same principle that indicts those white racists that you and I mutually condemn. Two wrongs do not make a right, one might argue.

A personal anecdote. I was once nudged out of a job that I am sure would have been mine, and it was over Affirmative Action. Here’s my sad, sad story (go get a hankie before reading on). J

My field is philosophy. When I was applying to graduate programs, invariable I got a letter, drafted by the American Philosophical Association, warning that jobs in philosophy were very scarce—scarce to the point of Darwinian survival extremes. I pursued the Ph.D. anyway, and finished at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in five years. Things had not changed: lots of philosophy Ph.D.s were flipping hamburgers for a living. I was lucky to land a position at a very prestigious liberal arts college in Minnesota, but it was on a year-to-year basis—not the coveted tenure-track position.

I was there for several years. Finally, they had an opening for a tenure-track position. Of course I applied. So did about 300 other people across the country. But at that point, I had a track record of (a) several major professional publications and (b) excellent teaching evaluations from both my students and my peers. Further, as married and the father of four, and having purchased a home in that town, I was very dependent on the continuation of my position.

In the middle of the search for candidates, one of our two female faculty members in the department up and announced that she was leaving. She was getting married and moving out of state. This suddenly meant that there was only one female philosopher in the department, compared to ten males. Suddenly, it became urgent to hire a female.

That did it. The search committee scoured their applications from female candidates and eventually offered the tenure-track position to one of them. She was a brand new graduate (from Emory, in fact), had zero publications and also had zero teaching experience.

To make matters worse for me, this happened right at a time when the college was under great financial duress and was systematically eliminating year-to-year positions like mine. All at once, I learned not only that I was not being offered the permanent position for which I had hoped, but that my year-to-year position could not be renewed the following year.

This woman had a cat, who likely benefited from the fact that the tenure-track position had been offered. So her feline dependent looked forward to prosperity, while my family of six suddenly feared for our future.

By the grace of God, just two weeks after learning all of this, I had a phone call from an Atlanta College and was offered a job.

As you might expect, it is hard for me to be enthusiastic over programs of Affirmative Action. I share the end (goal) of wanting to see an equitable distribution of goods in our society. But I do not believe that the end justifies the means.

I hope you also see that my skepticism here is not merely a function of my own personal experience. It is a matter of principle that gives me reasons for pause.

What principled reason might we give in defense of Affirmative Action?


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 4:43pm.

What principled reason might we give in defense of Affirmative Action?

First - let me state that in order to receive concrete consideration - my plan would not be called Affirmative Action. I have witnessed many in this country who are going up to the 'plate' without the opportunity to gain skills. I see this as a stepping stone to a two class system in the United States - a true 'haves' /'have not' society. Those who would receive the 'helping hand' would not be classified by race, gender, or faith - but by their individual need to succeed. Maybe instead of calling this plan Affirmative Action - it would be called Helping Hands. I feel that it is a principled plan. What do you think?

Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 5:05pm.

You did not start on an even playing field in this country, however it has been thirty plus years, since that battle has been won.

We need to stop living in the past and claim the future.

By claiming that it is not fair isn't going to help. By discriminating against white peolple to satisfy a quota, isn't helping us move forward. It builds resentement, and is in fact reverse discrimination.
So either you are against discrimination or you are not. It seems that you are indeed in favor of it, if it helps you only.
I am in favor of equal pay for equal qualifications. I am about equal opportunity. For everyone.

We have had 30+yrs. to heal this country. How much more time do you think you will need??? How much longer do you intend to blame white people for your shortcomings???

A fair is a place where we ride rides that make us sick, and eat cotton candy that makes us even sicker. Life isn't fair.!!

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 9:47pm.

You've got to be kidding! The wound still bleeds - or we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're better - but we're not healed. A study has been done regarding AA in leading colleges in this country. Except for athletes, the students (white) who did not get in did not have 'better' grades and/or qualifications than the minority or female who was admitted. I bet you're for equal pay - as long as you get the job before the black guy.

Life isn't fair while you're developing an equal playing field. . .and IMO the playing field is not yet equal for women, minorities or members of certain religions. I realize that when the economy is down -and jobs are scarce - there will be some whites (Americans) who need to feel that they didn't get the job because a minority or female(illegal immigrant) was hired. Before 1965, my relatives just didn't get the job. Be patient - they were. Reverse discrimination is not as prevalent as in the past - there are just more people who have taken advantage of the opportunities afforded and they are qualified for the jobs. There is less hiring based on color - and more on need to meet the public or customer. If one has a spanish speaking clientele - a non-spanish speaking black or white will not fit the employers need. If one is serving a diverse population - it is good business to have a diverse sales force. If one is serving a diverse student population - it is wise to have a diverse teaching staff. You're right - life isn't fair - welcome to my world. Isn't it a shame that we are still discussing this after 30+ years. This 'problem' should have been solved by now if 'white male privilege' had been truly released. Now we need to truly see our fellow human beings as just that and judge them by the quality of their skill and character - and nothing else. Not easy - but doable.

Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 10:16pm.

I'll let you have your pity party. You seem to need it for some very bizarre reason.
The war is over honey, claim your victory and move on. Whites have been passed over for less qualified people strictly based on color. Reverse racism hurts everybody, even you. It is a shame that it is the 21st century and you still think the whole world owes you something. "there is less hiring based on color" you say, which means you admit that reverse discrimination still goes on.

Don't you see how that makes you look, as a people? It makes it look like the only way a minority of any race can get ahead is to play the "card" and beg for quota's to be filled. Do you know how insulting that is to minorities who strive to achieve based on merit?

I'm all for equal pay and opportunities, based on merit.!!!! Not color.!!!! After 30 years you should be thriving not whining.

After 30 years, if you are still that angry you need a shrink, not this blog.!!

I wish you the best in everything, but I can't continue to communicate with a blatant racist. I feel that is all you are.

Submitted by Davids mom on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 6:20am.

. . .oh great one who can't comprehend. . .or debate without resorting to blatant lies. Smiling

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 5:01pm.

Sandra,

I think I would need to hear more to know quite what to think.

I would like to know whether you think that I accurately represent the basic argument *for* affirmative action. Do I get it at least close to accurate? (Actually, the basic argument that I present comes from a social philosophy class that I had many years ago!)

I want to live in a truly equitable society. I want your children to have *precisely* the opportunities that are afforded my children.

But I suspect that some ways of achieving that goal are of greater moral worth than others.

So I'm still trying to think through this stuff.


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 9:15pm.

The problem is systemic and must be addressed as such. The very presence of a racial imbalance, when it comes to desirable roles in our society, is evidence of either a continued racism or of the (perhaps unintended) lingering consequences of earlier injustices.
I agree. The racism continues - but we are more aware of it - and 'good' people realize the danger of this racism diminishing our society in America.

Equals should be treated equally, and any differences in treatment must be based upon morally relevant differences between the people in question.”

The first part of this sentence must be realized before the last part of can be relevant. When blacks and whites; males and females are seen as 'equal' - then we can move on to the premise that differences in treatment must be based upon morally relevant differences between the people in question. Until it is accepted that blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, are 'equal' - hiring quotas, IMO, are not immoral. There are many 'firsts' in my family in careers where they were superior - but not afforded the job until AFTER 1965! Our American psyche has not accepted the equality of humankind - when we still celebrate the first black astronaught, the first black doctor on staff at a certain hospital; the first black ice skater representing the US in the Olympics; the first black bobsledding team; . . . we, - blacks, women, minorities are still seen as not quite as equal as the 'white' male. , ,but we're getting there!

Submitted by Davids mom on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 7:29am.

Did a little research. Hmmmm - those who benefited from AA were American women. A minority woman was a double plus to an employer. Under AA, more white women broke the glass ceiling than ever before. However - I know the perception is that only African Americans have benefited - and many have. This year Morehouse College graduated between 500-600 young black males who are entering the work force with degree in hand. Most have solid job offers - from employers all around this country or they are going on to grad school so that the can compete for those 6 figure jobs.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 8:09pm.

I've been reading with interest and appreciation your comments Sandra. I'm thankful for you and the example you've set for your family and I'm equally grateful that you're my neighbor and a part of our community. I say this with a humble heart.

There are couple of things that have you have written during these dialogs that I have concerns about or am ignorant about. I'd be grateful to hear more about these issues as they have only been touched on while using them as part of a point being made.

However - when we see legislators and/or organizations trying to diminish the advancements that have been made since the '60's - it becomes easier to return to the rhetoric that goes along with hate and anger.

I guess you could classify me as a Right Wing Conservative. I occasionally listen to Rush, Neil and Hannity. And I am morally conservative for the most part and believe extremely in the individual and I despise the punitive taxation and redistribution of the wealth that individuals work hard to earn. With that said and as I read your statement above I have to take issue. I do not know any Conservatives, Republicans or any legislators that are working to roll back the advancements of the civil rights movement.

Where do you get that from? I have been an active part of the white community since I was born (LOL) and have also been very active politically and economically for many years. I have never witnessed nor heard of anyone or any group in the mainstream of my race that desires to roll back the achievements of the civil rights movement. Where are you getting that from? Louis Farakan? Ok...that was tacky of me and I know you better than that. But as sensible as you are on this blog I struggle to understand where you get the feeling that we're trying to "put you people back in your places". That's one of those statements that causes white folk to roll their eyes, shake their heads, walk away and saying...I give up.

An excellent example of 'forgiving' is the reconciliation movement in South Africa. It has only been a few years since the end of Apartheid - and I can't believe the progress that has been made in that country. They are almost where we are now - with many of the same problems in adjusting to an integrated society.

My understanding is that there have been severe reprecussions against the white community across the board and that much effort has been put into revenge and retaliation against all caucasions in SA. I'm not saying that the blacks of SA didn't have reasons to be upset in a major way but if there is a "reconciliation movement" taking place in South Africa it would appear to be about as effective and powerful as the one taking place here. Practically non existent. If I'm wrong on this I would love to come to realize that there is a place on earth where forgiveness truly trumps anger and hate.

Martin Luther King Sorry...I struggle with the Reverend title in regards to Mr. King. I am grateful that Mr. King fought the battles and help lead this nation in ending the atrocities that the blacks had to live through. I personally never saw the kind of hate you grew up with. My parents taught me to judge people individually and to respect folks in the black community even though there were none living in our area. I have to confess that in elementary school I had my mouth washed out with soap for calling someone the "N" word. That was done after my mom's sister was raped by a black man. Guess my mom had a good grip on the whole hate thing. So.....I ramble.

My question to you on Mr. King is this: Do you feel his immoral whoring around damaged and contributed to the moral decline of the black family in this country? MLK is held to an almost godlike status with most blacks and I have wondered if his infidelity and leadership helped set the precedent for the destruction of the family in the black community. I ask this because prior to the the civil rights movement and the welfare state it seemed that these same families were inseperable and very strong.

Now I can ask the same questions about the broken families in the white community. Lord knows our homes are being destroyed also for various reasons. Guess my sarcastic conclusion would be that if we condone and excuse the whoring lifestyle of Martin Luther King then we should also condone and excuse the whoring lifestyle of Thomas Jefferson with his black slaves.

Thanks Sandra for the patience and gratiousness you display here. So many personalities get combative against each other and I for one love to jump into the fray and play when a good brawl pops up here. You are a real lady and I appreciate hearing your perspectives on the race issues that we face daily. I only wish more blacks and whites sought to reconcile. However, there is much skepticism on both sides and I guess that we each have our life's experiences that cause us each to carry chips on shoulders. Talk soon.


Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 8:23am.

I guess you could classify me as a Right Wing Conservative.
I’d use quite a few different adjectives to classify you, but I’ll spare Cal Beverly the trouble of editing and warning me. Suffice to say, I find it remarkable that your immediate family history has gone from escaping goosestepping to embracing goosestepping within the span of a single generation.

I do not know any Conservatives, Republicans or any legislators that are working to roll back the advancements of the civil rights movement.
Git Real, meet Lynn “3 Commandments” Westmoreland, your United States Congressman. Go to his website! Look on the front page, about five items down, where he details his tireless efforts to fight renewal of the Voting Rights act. Whatta guy!

My question to you on Mr. King is this: Do you feel his immoral whoring around damaged and contributed to the moral decline of the black family in this country?
Gotta love people like Git Real. It doesn’t matter that Dr. (Not “Mr.”) King spent his whole life tackling tough issues like race and equality, peace and injustice. Nope, small minded men like Git Real take refuge in their moralistic posturing on King’s marital infidelity.

…I had my mouth washed out with soap for calling someone the "N" word. That was done after my mom's sister was raped by a black man.
What’s the point of this gratuitous little anecdote? You somehow claiming license to “use the ‘N’ word” because one of your relatives was assaulted? Or are you looking for Ms. Wilkins to issue an apology on behalf of her race to you for grievous wrongs permitted?

If it’s any consolation, Git Real, I do not consider you a racist, as I do not think you truly believe blacks are inferior to whites. I do, however, consider you to be an opportunistic race-baiting bigot, something almost as reprehensible in my mind as a racist. I think you use scorched-earth “whites as victims” racial politics as a wedge issue to advance your own agenda, a white male version of Cynthia McKinney, if you will, albeit less articulate than the Congresswoman.


ptctaxpayer's picture
Submitted by ptctaxpayer on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 8:56am.

BASMATI AND GIT REAL: A NEW DETENTE

From reading the posts, you would think that Basmati and Git Real cannot agree on anything. Sure, there are some differences but let's look at the common ground:

THEY BOTH AGREE...that the TDK road was a fraud, premised on the silly notion that it would solve traffic problems, when the real reason (known to the politicians) was to convert low grade farm land into high development, PTC be damned;

THEY BOTH AGREE...that the recent crime wave in Fayette is something we should work to solve;

THEY BOTH AGREE...that Lynn Westmoreland the "Three Commandment, Do-nothing-er" Congressman is an empty suit;

THEY BOTH AGREE...that our Constitutional right to free speech is invaluable; and

THEY BOTH DENY....ever having inhaled or goose-stepped.

Now you two play nice or you might get Cal-ordered mediation with one of these slimy local divorce shysters.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 1:12pm.

I was wondering when my sworn enemy would make another one of his drive by blogs. With enemies like you BW at least I can sleep well at nights. Hey...did you figure out which high school your son actually attends?

As usual I enjoy and am honored with your twisting, churning and misinterpretations of what I say. Go back to your corner there Hate Boy.


Submitted by did not know on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 3:27pm.

By pandering to blacks about being black, you are only making the problem worse. I have done a lot of genealogy, and I can say history has been rewritten to pander in some cases. A lot of whites came here as endentured servants and were treated much worse than the blacks ever thought about. Many blacks were given their freedom and treated quite well. Blacks today have more opportunites than whites...that is a fact. You keep wanting to refight the Civil War. I'm soooo sick of this.
Many Scots, if you care to really dig into history were treated badly, a whole load of them were sold into slavery in the Carribean for sugar. They just happened to be on the boat of an industrious captain.
Many Irish, who came during the 1850's were ...jealous...of the treatment of the black slaves! Why? Because the starving Irish could be worked all day for almost nothing, and no one had to feed, house, or cloth them . Slaves were worth money and Irish would do work no one else would and if he died? Yhere was another Irishman there to take his place for nothing. These kind of people came here, asked for nothing but a chance, a lot died, others took the chance, and they don't tell us today how much we owe them, or ask for affirmitve action.

Submitted by did not know on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 3:35pm.

your jobs are going to INDIA! You might want to talk about that, it is in the present and real!

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 11:53am.

Sometimes it is difficult to remain 'ladylike'. Hopefully the gentleman just likes a good debate.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 1:16pm.

Your hopes have come true Sandra. I do and am enjoying a good debate. Sorry you don't feel the same way. And perhaps I've learned a thing or two. You don't have to remain 'ladylike' if you so choose. Just give the word and I'll end this dialogue with you.


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 4:05pm.

Shucks no - I love a good debate. I've been discussing 'race' since the discussion for race was called for by the administration some years ago. I just become weary when I see the same 'talking points' and 'traps' used by the 'right wingers' who wish to belittle sincere seekers of solutions. Let's continue.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 5:06pm.

I guess I am a Right Winger and it's obvious you're a Left Winger. But let's put all that aside and continue. I know that I am sarcastic in my debates but we each have our own ways of making our points. Wish I was as eloquent as Muddle, but I'm not. Sorry if it appears that I am setting traps.....that's not what I'm after here. I find you very interesting because you "sound" very reconcilatory in spite of your jabs at our president. But I can handle that knowing and understanding the socialist nature of the party you hold dear. With that said I also understand why you are such a supporter of affirmative action as is tends to give an advantage to those who under normal circumstances are usually unwilling to compete in an open and free market. With the statements you've made regarding affirmative action I do believe you support it without regards to race. However, the problem is that the benefits are really centered around the African American community.

Oh well. The Mid-Westerner in me will probably never give on the concept of the rugged individual. Hope you can respect that. Talk later.


Submitted by did not know on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 4:22pm.

a person who lands on top, knows were the top is. and trys to get there..you are trying to fight the Civil War again.. and beat a dead horse.that ain't were it is. Get a life!

Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 11:11pm.

With that said and as I read your statement above I have to take issue. I do not know any Conservatives, Republicans or any legislators that are working to roll back the advancements of the civil rights movement.

I don't recall mentioning Conservatives and/or Republicans. I was referring to the John Birch Society in California; David Duke and the KKK, and numerous other organizations that are too inconsequential to mention. Many in the black community felt there were certain House legislators (Lynn Westmoreland) who were trying to delay the passing of the Voter Rights Act. Fortunately the president did not want the suggested amendment - and the Senate passed the extension of the Voters Rights Act unanimously. I am a strong proponent for 'affirmative action' for all marginalized Americans in 2007. After all, our president received a form of affirmative action when he was admitted to Yale. He certainly didn't have the grades.

My understanding is that there have been severe repercussions against the white community across the board and that much effort has been put into revenge and retaliation against all caucasions in SA.

I was in South Africa in 1999. Bishop Tutu , Nelson Mandela and DeKlerk instituted a reconciliation process. Those who committed atrocities against blacks and coloreds and those who committed atrocities against whites could confess and receive forgiveness under the new government of South Africa. It was in Zimbabwe where the president took all of the white owned lands and many whites suffered under the actions of the president of Zimbabwe. We were also in Zimbabwe in 1999 - and it was a very oppressive environment. We stayed in an integrated neighborhood in South Africa - but most blacks still live in their segregated townships. In Johannesburg, during Apartheid, blacks were not allowed in the city after dark - and all blacks and coloreds had to carry an identity card. Now there is no such restriction. Before the end of Apartheid - the only criminals that the police had to deal with after dark in Johannesburg were white - now they must also deal with black criminals. There is fear among some whites - for it is obvious that the 'whites' are outnumbered in South Africa. Without the 'reconciliation process' - revenge would have caused a blood bath in SA. We observed integration in Sandron - a high end mall in Johannesburg. Remember - the educated blacks in South Africa received their education in Europe - and are the CEO's in almost all of the large businesses that are in South Africa. All of the Afrikaans - black and white - speak at least 3 or 4 languages. Afrikaans, English, German and/or French and three or four African dialects. It is a fascinating country - and we look forward to returning in 2007. I had relatives who were 'monitors' of the South African elections after the fall of Apartheid. Under Apartheid, we could not have lived together because of the color of our skin. Some of my relatives are a beautiful mahogany color, some are very fair or have an olive complexion. Under Apartheid - you were separated by the color of your skin. Sick.

Do you feel MLK's immoral whoring around damaged and contributed to the moral decline of the black family in this country?

No. Religious and political leaders have been whoring around long before MLK was born. Both Conservatives and Liberals - and many religious organizations have their share of leaders who have been accused of 'whoring around'. There was a concerted effort to destroy the black family from the moment blacks got off the slave ship.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 7:37am.

Do you really think there is a movement out there that wants to eliminate the ability for blacks to vote?

You weighed in with the fact that your are a strong proponent for 'affirmative action' for all marginalized Americans in 2007. Hmmmmm. I guess all Americans means white people too. So what do we do. Slam the door shut on those that have busted their tails and worked in a manner that others have not been willing to do to gain success? I am successful because I was willing to make extreme sacrifices to gain a foothold on the ladder of success. Those that are successful, regardless of race, have all done this. So you want to use affirmative action to slap the successful around? Level the playing field? Take opportunities away from those that have earned it and give a shortcut to those looking for the easy way up? I work around affirmative action quite a bit. It's a sham. Nice slap at Bush there by the way.

I hope all is as you say it is in South Africa. Time will tell. I'd like to see a country that is as truly integrated as you describe. As a traveler to South Africa I appreciate your perspectives on that country but I have to wonder if you viewed the "tourist trap facades" or whether you got deep in the neighborhoods and country side to experience the realities of SA. I have a friend went to SA several months ago and brags about that experience. I will be traveling soon with him and will dig into the race and reconciliation issues as to learn more. You've peaked my interest. I would love to travel there myself. Perhaps one day.

On MLK. Touche! Guess there's not much respect out there for political & religious leaders and because of the whoring and corruption that seems to be a prerequisite of those positions. Not so much the religious but enough of them do to make you wonder about the rest. I look at infidelity closely when sizing up a candidate. I figure if he or she screws over their spouses then what would give cause for them to not screw over a peon like me? As far as "getting off the slave ship" goes I think it was about a hundred and fifty years ago since slaves were imported into this country. Is that truly the reason? Or is it cultural? Is it like that in Africa? I know a huge problem for men is keeping that thing in our pants in the first place. Some do a pretty good job of it....yet others? Is that behaviour cultural?


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 11:45am.

I am successful because I was willing to make extreme sacrifices to gain a foothold on the ladder of success.

I'm taking a wild guess that you are male, white, and educated. What barriers may have prevented you from gaining a foothold on the ladder of success? There are males who do not have an opportunity to gain a decent education (Appalachia) (urban inner city schools); there are males who do not have parents who supported them with good parenting skills; there are attitudes which prevent males of certain backgrounds from business opportunities; - I congratulate you if you had to overcome any of these barriers. If you had to overcome just one - you are fortunate. There are males who had to overcome all of these and more. I'm a proponent for mandatory pre-school education for those children who have parents who don't realize that you teach a child their colors and letters BEFORE they come to school; I'm a proponent of parent education classes (mandatory) for all parents in ALL public schools; - I'm a proponent for affirmative action for all who have not had a chance at the opportunities that this country provides for 'some'. I agree with Ms. Cosby - that many in today's black community have not taken advantage of the 'rights' that previous generations fought for. . . .but it is not just the black community that needs a hand up today. The current generation of 'white' parents need help in dealing with the drug culture, promiscuity, and just knowing right from wrong. I see 'affirmative action' as giving a helping hand to those who need it. . . not just blacks. We are developing a two class society in America - and the powers that be are using race to hide the fact that the middle class is disappearing. I have hope - CNN reported that some 76% of Americans are dissatisfied (angry) about our current economic situation. Maybe we are waking up.

I hope all is as you say it is in South Africa.

I shared my view as seen from my perspective. I not only visited the 'tourist traps' - which were enjoyable Smiling, but also many townships. The poverty was difficult to stomach - but the desire seen in the children's faces for education; the hope that was in their parents eyes when they went to the cities to work and realized that with an education their children may someday work in the city wearing 'suits'. I also could not help but observe some white resistance to change - just as we experienced in this country. The leadership of DeKlerk and the desire for peaceful change demonstrated by the younger generation of white South Africans is to be commended. The wisdom of the leaders to model reconciliation to their constituents, I feel saved that country from the bloodshed that has been seen in other African countries.

Or is it cultural? Is it like that in Africa?

According to the writings of slave owners and those who dealt in the slave trade, (as found in the research and can be documented) it was important to separate families and slaves who spoke the same language in order to prevent them from planning uprisings and escapes. On the plantation, slaves married in 'secret' - but children were taken from their parents to be sold; women were used to 'breed' more slaves;
NO it is not cultural for African American or African men to belittle the family unit - by shirking their responsibility. Under slavery, black men had no responsibility but to use what is in their pants for breeding purposes. In my opinion, to ask that question shows a profound lack of understanding of what it is like to be viewed as a piece of property. The legacy of slavery lasted long after the institution was no longer 'legal'. It took strong black men and women to overcome the mental damage done to them under slavery and Jim Crow - and to form strong family and community alliances.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 1:44pm.

Hi Sandra. Thanks for your thoughts and the history lesson regarding the break down of the black family. We could easily march right into a discussion of the break down of the family in white community also. I asked because I'd like to know your perspectives contrary to what Hate Boy might imply. No hidden agendas. I thought these discussions were to get to understand each other better in an attempt to find common ground in which start a bit of reconciliation. Guess I should be more politically correct instead of being honest.

I do appreciate your helping me to understand that my success stems from my being a white guy. I guess sixty to ninety hours a week and five years with no pay had nothing to do with it. Dang I say. You mean I wasted all those hours of work for nothing? Gosh...and I also guess that having to earn my way through an affirmative action infected industry was a figment of my imagination. Companies with token blacks in an attempt to get business. Black owned companies that were operating off of other peoples money with no recourse or personal responsibility. And when these sham companies went broke and many honest and hardworking people of both colors were left holding the bad debts these people marched off and excused themselves with their color. Please give me a break.

I'm curious as to how and why so many African immigrants are experiencing tremendous success in our current economic environment without the crutches you claim blacks need. How are these sucessful businesses doing it without all the excuses and special privileges available to them?


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 4:34pm.

I'm a proponent for affirmative action for all who have not had a chance at the opportunities that this country provides for 'some'.

My 'affirmative action' plan will probably have to have another name - but as I stated before - some attention must be given to all Americans who do not have the opportunity to gain the skills necessary to compete on an equal basis with others. If a child has a learning disability - after being so identified - he is given extra time on certain tests in this country because of his 'handicap'. Well - there are many in this country who are 'handicapped' - and need 'extra time'. . . to succeed. I'm sure you can identify the 'handicaps' you've had to overcome. Congratulations for working so many hours a week. . . .who, that is successful hasn't. Please.

African immigrants

Now you're offering facts that are not in evidence. I see too many African immigrants here in Atlanta struggling. I am aware of some very successful African immigrants here in Atlanta - but they didn't have to rely on American funding for their ventures. Open your eyes - there are some very, very successful African Americans - descendants of slaves - right here in Fayette County - and elsewhere in metro Atlanta. Some can trace their history to when the slave relative purchased their freedom and land - and made it despite the legacy and Jim Crow. There are others who had their homes burned to the ground. Some are just 'stronger' than others. Maybe you need to go back to the 'right wing' blogs and get your provocative statement for this answer. I bet I can almost guess what it will be - but we'll see.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 5:18pm.

What right wing blogs? In regards to the African immigrants perhaps you're right. My exposure to these people are in the business world and I see folks who are to be admired greatly for their achievements. Leaving Africa and much persecution these guys started these businesses without large amounts of capital. As for the others that are here and not as successful...well welcome to the real world. After traveling to several third world countries I have come to the conclusion that we don't even know what poor is anymore. I'm certain their lives are much better now than they have ever been other than not being in the land of their childhood.

Maybe you need to go back to the 'right wing' blogs and get your provocative statement for this answer. I bet I can almost guess what it will be - but we'll see. Wow! I'm starting to think you are stuck in the past a whole lot more than you care to admit. I thought we were getting somewhere.


Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 5:43pm.

This Sandra person is a racist. She claims to want equal opportunity, but only for her people.

Let's claim equal opportunity for everyone, which is what the founding fathers of this country wanted when they came here.

For the last 30 yrs we have all been on an even playing field.

We need to stop showcasing these racist attitudes, but it is hard to keep from responding to Sandra's blatant racism.

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 5:47pm.

. . I want equal opportunity for only 'my' people. Thanks.

Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 6:26pm.

From everything you have said so far, you have not indicated that hard work should be part of an equation for success.
The implications or messages I have gotten from your posts here say,....... no scream; that blacks can't possibly compete on their own. They need special favors.

Is this the message you wanted to communicate? Is it? Don't you see how that message holds you back?

I can't see the need for reverse discrimiantion in the 21st century.
We have all had the same opportunity. We have been on a even playing field for the last thirty years. That means that if you have kids my age we have all had the same opportunities.
Your Affirmative Action program, or helping hand as you want to call it; does that include working poor families that happen to be white?

My father supported a family of five on twenty thousand dollars a year. My parents did not apply for welfare or food stamps. They didn't look for handouts or sympthy. They got busy, and worked part-time jobs to make ends meet. They took care of other peoples homes, cleaning and doing yard work.
We all are on the same playing field. How are you going to make your opportunity happen. What are you willing to do to succeed? Do you want to work hard at every opportunity that comes your way? Or do want to sit back and complain about how unfair life is??

I don't appreciate discrimination, no matter what color it comes in!!

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 8:35pm.

I will answer this one time - and then I quit. It is obvious that you ask questions based on false premises. Since you can't find the statements that are the basis for your reasoning - I have to assume that you may have a processing problem. I achieved my success in my life pursuits long before Affirmative Action. I had great, knowledgeable parents; was raised in a caring community; received an outstanding education; overcame barriers of race and gender with the help and support of caring black and white people - all without the Affirmative Action program. . . but I had help!!

There are many today who don't have the foundation that I had. There are many today who don't have the community or individual support that I had. If we are to have an educated populace - we're going to have to give a helping hand. The program that I espouse will require people of good will and superior intelligence to create procedures in order for it to implemented equitably. Because of the negative controversy surrounding the term Affirmative Action - the name would have to be changed. If the term did not illicit such an emotional reaction - I would say 'Affirmative Action - don't end it - mend it'. . .so that everyone could benefit from it's intent to help those who have not had the equal opportunity to achieve.

Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 3:34pm.

Ah, my favorite part in a Git Real “debate”, the part where you begin to see cracks in the carefully constructed façade. The smug condescension is a bit more apparent, and the patronizing tone is a tad more discernable… Relying less and less on false premise arguments (“Are black families inherently unstable due to role model Martin Luther King’s tomcattin’ or is the inherent irresponsibility of the black male somehow genetic?”) and more on gross generalizations and broad-brush accusations.

Now we’re getting down to grievances, and by golly, Git Real has got a truckload! Determined, sacrificing white folks are being held down by lazy irresponsible ni-uh,African Americans. They’re using Other People’s Money, for crying out loud! How DARE someone give “those people” loans! And yes, Git Real is a victim…a victim, dammit! White folk have to work hard for everything they get, but Black folk get everything handed to them! And finally, we’re treated to another familiar refrain from the Git Real Greatest Hits collection: “Ni-uh, African Americans will NOT pay their bills! It’s their nature!” Forget about facts, he’s got the anecdotal evidence to “prove” this!


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 4:54pm.

Forget about facts, he’s got the anecdotal evidence to “prove” this!

Whatever Hate Boy. You making light of my real life experiences is supposed to mean what? Hate Boy...when someone fills out a credit application and signs a personal guarantee with promises to pay in 30 days is that a loan? When they get paid on projects and yet they fail to pay their suppliers I have to ask again? Is that a loan? When I'm left holding the bag and have to pay my suppliers for the products used on that job and I still have to meet my payrolls how does that become a loan? Yes Basswipe I extended credit to people who put on a facade and their intent is to make sure they find the cash flow to keep up their Lexus payments at the expense of other with the hope that somehow their color will somehow bring them success and wealth through their affirmative action programs. I have offered up goods and services at prices that would save a municipality 25 - 30% on project but because I'm a white guy the taxpayer gets stuck in the end. Huge percentages of these scam businesses never deliver on these bids and they wind up desperately trying to get someone to complete the job at whatever costs necessary. BW...this is not painting anyone with a broad brush as you like to read into things in a way that you can profile me however you please. I can rattle off several black companies that are above the board but when we sit around the table and break bread they are the first to complain about the affirmative action freeloaders that spoil business opportunities for legit folks like themselves.

I have to ask myself why I even bother to acknowledge you in the first place BW. Enter into the conversation or just go move off and die or something. Your hate and drive by slammings are the lowest of lows on here.

Perhaps I should stop extending credit to black people all together and then I wouldn't have anything to comment on in that regard....Would I.

Sorry Sandra..I would truly like to continue particpating in the debate but my evil arch enemy (by his choice mind you)likes to slam people without ever adding any quality discussion to any of the topics. The nice thing is that he's after me and that protects others from this hateful character.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 1:51pm.

The title is borderline offensive.

Having grown up in south Florida, I am not new to race relations in the south. I came through the late 60s and early 70s when my junior high and high school had to be shut down due to "race riots." I once rounded a corner in a remote area of our campus only to face five blacks who wanted nothing better than to beat the $hit out of a honkey--which they proceeded to do. My dad was a S. Florida cop during the civil rights movement. I remember his riot helmet that he had to wear because of the violence. He wound up fatally shooting a black armed robber.

And what is yet to come from me is the other side: my full acknowledgement of the kinds of things that you point out. My job is in one of those "white flight" cities that you listed in another post. It definitely is not nice: bars on windows of homes and businesses, sleezy businesses, etc.

Much of what I hope to post soon is some reflection on what might explain the problems with such communities. It is too simple to look only to poverty or ignorance or race. I think the explanation is complex and dynamic, and defies the rhetoric of both white racists and the politically correct. (Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I am the absolute nemesis of the politically correct. Ironically, you seem to endorse a kind of relativism but (inconsistently) offer morally charged complaints about the behavior of the black community. I, on the other hand, am a stark-raving moral realist who insists that the politically correct appeal to relativism is nonsense, yet, on sturdy moral grounds, argue for harmony and reconciliation. The world is a strange place, indeed.)

But your reply does not, I think, address my main point.

As I observed, *my* neighbors are *not*--and decidedly not--the people who would hold someone up at an ATM or steal a basketball.

And my point--indicated by my title, "Looking in the wrong places?"--was that we have good black Fayette neighbors who resist such a characterization.

The sort of rhetoric that has appeared on here--and, Kimberly, you are not the least of these--has reflected resentment towards our black neighbors *in general.* And I think an initial step towards reconciliation and a flourishing community is genuine acceptance of such neighbors. If you are not interested in reconciliation, then I'm not sure what else I have to say to you.

Pointing out that there is an element within the black population that has been respoonsible for these sorts of crimes is to say nothing that all of us do not already know.

But, then, while we're at it, did you know that, statistically speaking, serial killers and child molesters tend to be middle-aged white men.


kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 6:44pm.

Muddle, or Sandra-I have never said in any post that I haven't had positive experiences with blacks. I have, I was very good friends with a black girl in elementary school, we played ball and cheered together. It never occured to me that she and her family were like the other blacks that were around our area. Her parents were married and her dad worked and her mom stayed home and raised the kids. As I've stated before...it's more about culture than race, but "statistically speaking" as muddle said...they were not the norm of blacks represented in our area...


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 8:42pm.

they were not the norm of blacks represented in our area...

Sorry - I assumed you lived in PTC. What is the norm for blacks in your area?

kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 9:00pm.

Sandra,

I was raised mostly in Clayton County, I've been in PTC for 12 years. Clayton was like Fayette in the 70's & early 80's. The experience of watching what happened to Clayton County since I was a kid has formed alot of my opinions on race.


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 9:54pm.

Are the blacks in PTC like the blacks that moved to Clayton County?

kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 10:49pm.

Sandra,

I actually didn't leave my Clayton neighborhood because of "white flight", as there were no blacks in my neighborhood at the time. We had several 'white trash' families that were renters, however. We left because our house was our starter home that we outgrew, and we didn't want to invest in another home in Clayton because it wouldn't have been a good investment, and the schools weren't getting any better. In the 12 yrs. since I left it's become a haven for violence, drugs and crime. And also majority black. There are way too many apartments and the decline seems to have started when public transportation came in the late 70's.

For the most part, I think black FAMILIES move to PTC for the same reasons white families do. My son's have had black friends (that even sleep over...imagine that! Smiling) and they have had problems with black kids at school bullying them. The difference with the kids was that the bullies were from the section 8 apartment complex and the good kids weren't.


Submitted by Davids mom on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 6:40am.

I understand - your reasons for moving to ptc are the same as mine for moving to Fayetteville. What I couldn't understand was what I interpreted you as saying that ALL blacks ruin a neighborhood; and that you had not had one good experience with blacks. When haves live close to have nots - there may/probably will be jealousy, bullying, etc. We see this type of behavior in schools that have only one race represented. It is a sad part of human behavior. I really couldn't imagine too many people living in PTC - and not coming into contact with at least one black family. When we arrived here - we lived in PTC while our home was being built - and enjoyed the new friendships of black and white families. Although I would hate to paint all Section 8's as causing the downfall of a neighborhood - and remember that there are fine retirees and young people starting out who may qualify for section 8 - it has been my experience when landlords rent to section 8's - the property value and neighborhoods decline. There should be landlords that require their tenants to take a home ownership course (teaching the responsibility of home upkeep). Although I don't feel that Section 8 clientele will move into PTC or Fayetteville - the business of drugs is here. Community groups need to meet with law enforcement in order to learn what to look for in their neighborhood - and how to protect their children from beginning the horrendous road of drug use.

kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 11:07am.

My only experience in PTC with 'section 8' is Harmony Village from Hell. An old friend from high school was a Sheriff's Deputy here for 10 yrs. He said between Gable's Court and Harmony Village, they (at one point) accounted for over 85% of the crime in PTC. Our former neighbors son is a PTC cop that once lived in Harmony, he said it was awful. My question, or comment I should say is...I don't think all housing qualifies as section 8. I think properties have to qualify somehow by the government to be eligible. That means most PTC residents are 'safe' from that happening to their neighborhood. But then again, you never know. If anyone here knows anything about this...fill me in.


Submitted by Davids mom on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 2:48pm.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/pih/programs/hcv/

Submitted by McDonoughDawg on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 1:12pm.

Most all property will qualify. As an owner, you have to agree to "accept" the Section 8 certificates. There are set amounts of rent they will pay for set property specs. As in Bedrooms/Baths/ zip code, etc. Property will be inspected by Section 8 officials prior to authorizing the rent. There are many reasons folks like section 8 rentals as landlords, mostly due to the lack of collection problems with the tenants. As a check comes from the Housing Authority.

Section 8 is applied for by folks looking for housing, who are supposed to be in need, as in low paying job etc. It is not an automatic process.

It was never intended to be as big as it is, in my opinion.

I've been a landlord before, and have never accepted it. Folks got mad about it at times, but it's the owners choice. I used to manage over 100 properties in Clayton/Henry County over 15 years ago, and we had a few owners who loved it, but they kept strict tabs on their tenants. Many property owners wouldn't even consider the program, as they felt like it was a "give away".

Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 2:02pm.

One of the reasons there is so little Section 8 housing in Fayette county is that the individual housing authorities (I'm familiar with Atlanta's and Jonesboro (Clayton)'s authorities) have caps on the amount of rents they will pay as well as geographic restrictions. If I recall correctly, Atlanta housing will pay vouchers outside of Atlanta in certain zip codes, mostly Clayton if I recall. Jonesboro will pay vouchers in Fayette.

The main problem is the price caps...I believe the Jonesboro housing cap is $1150 for a 4 bedroom 2 bath home. That won't cover the McMortgage on most McMansions in Fayette. Besides, if I can get $1300 a month on a rental in, say, Braelin, why take a "pay cut" for a section 8 tenant.

I don't even know if Fayette even has a housing authority that will qualify section 8 tenants...I suspect they don't.

I personally don't take section 8 in my rental homes, but it's for financial reasons more than anything else. They do have some somewhat nitpicky inspectors (i.e. screens on every single window on the house, firewood stacked no closer than x feet to the house).

Section 8 would work well in a place like Wynnmeade. Wynnmeade has an above average number of vacant rental properties, and a savvy renter could play landlords off against each other to make a very good deal (I've seen this happen with a landlord friend of mine). A section 8 tenant is limited in his/her choices, and would jump at a section 8 rental in Wynnmeade.


kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Thu, 09/07/2006 - 2:25am.

Is that Mr. Wrestling Number 1, or Number 2?


Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Thu, 09/07/2006 - 2:45am.

It's Mr. Wrestling II of course...Mr. Wrestling I had the all-white mask.

You might recall Mr. Wrestling II's 15 minutes of national fame when he refused to remove his mask for the Secret Service when invited as a guest to a White House birthday dinner for President Carter's mother Lillian.


kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 1:46pm.

Any landlord can accept it, but the government has to OK it? I guess if a landlord owns a house in the $200k and up range, he doesn't take chances on what the section 8 tenant might do to his investment. Thanks for the info!


kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 10:50am.

Sandra,

I've noticed that many of your posts include comments about the 'drug problem' we have in Fayette. As the mom to 3 boys (older ones are 19 & almost 15) I've been lucky not to have been burdened with those problems. Maybe 'lucky' is the wrong word. I've been smart, because my kids get regular blood tests due to other medical issues...I have had the Doc test them for illegal substances. Fortunately they were clean.

What has been your experience here in Fayette that causes you to comment on the 'drug problem' so often? It has been brought up here, and there are both sides of the argument..."out-of-towners bring drugs here" and "someone in Fayette must be buying for the sellers to come here". I believe it's both. And like most things, it'll probably only get worse as population grows. Your thoughts?


Submitted by Davids mom on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 10:33pm.

I spent many years working in South Central LA. I have also witnessed the teenagers on Hollywood Blvd. I see here in Fayetteville and Peachtree City the same activities that I witnessed in South Central and Hollywood. Kids (black and white) congregating in parking lots - glassy eyes, sluggish behavior; under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol. Your boys are fortunate to have you for a mother. I have grandchildren (6) ranging in ages from 8 to 24. It takes eternal vigilance to raise children today. There is a cavalier attitude towards smoking 'weed' - and I'm afraid that too many young people react differently to marijuana. . .but smoke it during social interaction. It doesn't have to get worse if parents would continue to be vigilant. Unfortunately - parents feel that 'teenagers' need their privacy and 'freedom'. WRONG The teenage years are the years that children need the most guidance and supervision via parents remaining active in school and church affairs; being good role models; listening to their children and their friends; KNOWING their friends.. .and their friends parents. etc. Some parents forget that it is not their role to be 'friends' - but understanding, supportive PARENTS. The friendship comes later - around 25. Smiling It's not the growth of the population - but the character of the population that influences drug use. No matter where families live - Atlanta, Beverly Hills, or Paris, France - our children have to make choices - for those who will entice them to use drugs are everywhere.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 9:12pm.

I know that everyone here is speaking honestly based on their perspective of the race relations in Metro Atlanta. I just wanted to share this information with you.

Another view of the 'integration' of Atlanta.

http://detnews.com/specialreports/2002/segregation3/b07-401355.htm

Some background regarding Auburn Avenue.
http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/rm_restoration_homes_areas/article/0,,HGTV_3787_1379296,00.html

kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 12:03am.

As I've said before, I'm a lifelong resident of the Atlanta area, and I know what "Sweet Auburn" is all about and what it means to blacks. I know about the thriving black neighborhoods, etc. As great as those places were/are...they do not excuse or explain what has happened to most parts of the city that have 'gone black'. Exceptions to every rule exist, no doubt. Nobody's here to minimize black acheievements. But for people like myself, I'd rather stop having black history month crammed down my throat and instead have some real leaders in your 'comminity' find some solutions to the problems that spill over into all of society.


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 6:47am.

I don't know if you read the posts that mention the class of people who move into neighborhoods that are no longer 'desirable'. It is usually the 'poor'. The problem of the underclass - uneducated, unhealthy (mentally and/or physically, etc., is a 'community problem. Possibly 'my' leaders can learn from 'your' leaders how to solve this problem. Unfortunately there are still a few 'uneducated, unhealthy whites' in America. What are 'your' leaders doing for them? Possibly 'my' leaders can replicate that solution. The 'black' community has lost two or three generations due to lack of skilled parenting; lack of meaningful education; lack of spiritual/moral guidance - IMO. If we open our eyes - this is also happening in the 'white' community. I'm amazed that Georgia is proud of their achievement of moving 'up' to the 3rd lowest achieving state in the country. Everyone in Georgia, California, New York, etc. needs to take a look at what is happening to the educational system - public and private - in this country if we are to remain a world leader. The leadership in the 'black' community (the real leadership - not those leaders that the media designates as our leaders) realize that no one will help us but us - and those Americans who are willing to help all Americans. . .not just those who look like them.

If 'our' history had not been deleted from American history for so many years - there would be no need for Black History/ Asian History/Mexican History months. I'm grateful for your honesty and forthrightness in expressing your opinion regarding 'black's. We are truly divided when we do not recognize that ALL Americans have contributed to our history. We are truly divided when we do not recognize that there are 'whites' throughout our history who have worked side by side with Americans of another hue to build this great country. This division, if allowed to continue, will be the ruination not only of our cities - but our country. I have only lived in the south for a little over two years. My husband was born in Georgia - but his family left in the 40's. I had a great fear of southern 'whites' based on the history of race relations in the south. I am so grateful to those blacks and whites in the south - and throughout our nation who fought the civil rights 'war' and were instrumental in my being able to stand in line with whites, asians, and hispanics and peaceably vote in the last presidential election in a little town in Georgia. To this little ole lady from Pasadena, who happens to be black, that act (voting in the south) was truly an answer to a prayer. Before you were born - that could not have happened. I am ALMOST twice your age. I'm concerned when I see the same attitudes that supported the racial divide in this country alive and well. Maybe honest people of both races can work together to find solutions to the problems of poverty, education, health and morality in our country. By the way - the role models of ' no marriage and bearing children out of wedlock have no color. Note Angelic and Brad; Oprah and Steadman. My mother (95) tells me that during the depression, being poor was no excuse for lack of pride in your community; not doing well in school; not respecting your neighbor. What is happening to the American psyche that fosters the attitudes that we see today in our poor communities - (urban areas/the Appalachia's of our country)?

My husband just reminded me that the problems American families face today are not limited to the 'underclass'. Note: the granddaughter who killed her grandparents; the all-American boy who took an arsenal of weapons to school; - it is difficult to have any discussion regarding our country without discussing 'morality'. The children mentioned above were, from all appearances, members of God fearing, middle class homes - and white. This was my only disagreement with Mr. Cosby. The problems that we are assigning to the 'poor or underclass' are present in all of our homes and communities.

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 7:07am.

You are candid about lingering problems in segments of the black community. You have a vision of how changes can be effected. You do not return venom for venom when interacting with others here. There isn't a trace of "reverse racism" in your discussion. And you are smart and articulate. Your very presence is a challenge to those who continue to think in terms of the old stereotypes (e.g., "Miss Ruthie" who made her cameo a couple of days ago).


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 7:28am.

The 'good' thing about living past 50 is that you become aware of the importance of incremental change. I have seen the changes that can occur from good acts. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel when I can enjoy the friendship of good people from an integrated church in Georgia; exchange pleasantries with 'strangers' who happen to be white in a restaurant in Georgia; be treated with courtesy and respect by white and black teenagers in a small town in Georgia. I'm not blind to the fact that there are problems of misunderstanding and miscommunication between races in our country - but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for giving all of us the opportunity to have this discussion in a 'safe' environment where ideas can be challenged without hatred. Smiling

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 7:58am.

My wife and I were childhood sweethearts, and have now been married over 31 years. We still hold hands when we walk together, and act like kids.

When we first moved here from Minnesota over nine years ago, we weren't sure what to expect in race relations. But one day, as we were walking into the Pavillion Publix, an older black man was coming out. He saw us, grinned, and said, "Now cut that out!" We all had a good laugh.

I could have been a member of his own family, given the good-natured ease with which he teased.

A very minor incident, I know. But it sort of served to set the tone of my experience with race relations since I have lived here. Out in public--at the grocery, in restaurants, etc--my experience, almost without exception, has been that people--black or white--respond to good-natured friendliness with the same.

We knowingly moved into a racially mixed neighborhood. In fact, the realtor who showed us this house among many, nodded over to the house next door and asked, "Does *that* bother you?"

"That" was the person whom I've come to know as "Larry"--my black next door neighbor.

(I am sad to say that this realtor was a Christian lady whom I had contacted through a church-related affiliation. She had already told me of one of her tactics with white clients. She was, of course, not permitted to "steer" whites away from mixed neighborhoods. But she told me, "When I have them in the car, I try to fall in behind the school bus so that they can see 'who' gets off.")

The neighbors who were in place over nine years ago are still there. The dads are hard working family men whom I am proud to know.
I continue to appreciate my black neighbors and am glad that I was not steered away by a racist realtor.


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 1:26pm.

. . .that others can't or won't see? There were For Sale signs in our neighborhood recently - but the new neighbors who are moving in represent all Americans - including white. Our development is still racially mixed. In fact - our development is more racially mixed than many in California. The area that we left in California is still racially mixed - both of our neighbors for more than 20 years were 'white'. The young couple who purchased our home are both attorneys - the husband had played in our yard with my sons when he was growing up. He and his wife are black. My youngest son lives in Georgia - near Macon - and his children play daily with the children of his white neighbors. As we discuss and express our fears and/or experiences - it's becoming clear to me that economics and morality is a major issue when discussing 'race' relations. I couple economics with morality because over the years I have learned that money does not dictate good moral attitudes and/or behavior. Having lived in the metro Los Angeles area almost all of my life - I have seen many people with unlimited funds - and low moral values. I have seen posts in this discussion where poverty and low moral values are coupled. I would rather live next door to a poor family who respected their neighbors, themselves, and taught their children to respect others - than a wealthy person who did not demand respect from his children or teach his children to respect others.

By the way - my husband and I are also 'high school' sweethearts. We lived down the street from each other. We will have been married for 46 years in February. ( You guys are youngsters!!)

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 2:25pm.

Sandra,

*Of course* the explanation is not one of economics--at least not solely or even principally. How would we explain the virtuous poor or the vicious rich?

I do not deny that poverty *can* be a contributing factor. Perhaps one recipe is one part poverty, one part frustration, one part anger, and another of resentment (i.e., "I am poor because of something *you* did!").

And if the aim of the local people here to talk like that is to rid themselves of the "culture of bling," that, clearly, has crossed both economic and ethnic boundaries. The core of it is an immoral attitude of egoism and self-aggrandizement. Perhaps it is easy to recognize in the pantomimes of the gangster rappers. But I am sure that there is a white, upper-class version of the same juvenile attitude that is alive and well and living in PTC. It just hasn't had quite the press.

One of my favorite authors is G.K. Chesterton. He put the (Marxist) economic explanation of asocial behavior to rest 100 years ago in such writings as "Heretics," "Orthodoxy," and his "debate" with communist and utopian, Robert Blatchford, in the British magazine, *The Clarion."


Submitted by bobby1378 on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 2:38pm.

I always here from the young when they get in trouble " my mother never loved me" " My father was too hard on me" "Movies made me do it" or " Avideo game made me do it"

You know what? Just once, just once I want to hear " My mother was great, my father was great, I am just an asshole."

Submitted by tsk tsk on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 3:25pm.

And what about when they take the easy way out of a problem and try to blame law enforcement? Say, for example, the easiest way to fix a certain problem is just to kill someone else's dogs. And they know it's wrong, but it's easier and faster than working within the law. Then when they get caught they say it's the sheriff's fault. You know what? Just once, just once I want to hear "The sheriff was right to enforce the law, I am just an asshole."

Submitted by bobby1378 on Wed, 09/06/2006 - 7:05pm.

If you have something to say to me you twit just say it. Don't go around your elbow to get to your ass. If you think you have some intelligent input on my blog give it to me. If not, shut your coward ass mouth tsk tsk

Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 6:55am.

If only 'blacks' were buying Rap Crap - those music producers wouldn't be millionaires. I'm black - but can't get with 'rap'. Jazz, blues, gospel - that's my speed. . .for American music. Love to listen to the classics, especially Bach.

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 7:18am.

Ah! That explains why we'd get along.

Do you know of Guy Davis? My wife and I happened on a free concert of his in Chattanooga about a year ago. All acoustic blues with an incredibly good fingerstyle and some slide. He consciously--deliberately--fills the shoes of the old bluesmen. Listening to Guy is like going back to the 30s and hearing Robert Johnson or Blind Willie.

At the show, he reached bheind and pulled out a banjo, and commented, "I played my first banjo in 1960--at a time when the *last* thing a black man should be seen with is a banjo." Great line. And it sums up what he's about: trying to remind people--blacks in particular--of this rich musical legacy.

"Legacy" is the title of a recent CD, in fact. One cut, titled, "Uncle Tom is Dead" has Guy and his teen son "arguing" over music. His son is into rap and says thinks like, "The blues is for white boys." Guy argues, "the blues is your heritage." (See my review of his "Legacy" on Amazon.com.)


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 7:39am.

Haven't had the pleasure of hearing Guy Davis - but was absolutely enthralled with Buddy Guy! My grandson plays a great guitar - and is going to major in music/music production in college. I'm going to get 'Legacy' - seems like I need a little education!! Yup - we'd get along! I have a great friend who teaches music in Los Angeles and on the side plays in a Zydeco band. Music is a great uniter. My father played the trumpet; my cousin, the sax, and I was surrounded with the great musicians of the 40's and 50's during my childhood. (The Mills Brothers, Lena Horne, Cab Calloway, Dizzy, etc., etc., etc.)

Submitted by dopplerobserver on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 6:56pm.

Well, I read it, or tried to do so. I don't want to overly simplify the problem here, but the problem is simply that one race who is a definite minority, has 2-3 times as much legal problems as the majority, and additionally, they are perpetuating the problem due to infant education on up. Exactly what is right and what is wrong is NOT the problem, heritage is. The lack of blending in due to not wanting to do so in the way required, must stop for the problem to stop. The majority would soon recognize that improvement, as they did with the problems among themselves (Italians, Irish, Hungarians, and Asians). It can't be done by continuing to try and make up for past injustices--which only creates an attitude in the minority to ask for even more non-blending. It will never happen.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 6:35pm.

. . .the parameters are outstanding for the discussion. I would hope that participants refrain from making blanket statements about 'blacks' and 'whites' - but clarify their opinions based on their experience or research. This is a difficult subject, unfortunately, but one that needs to be addressed. By the way - the unfortunate tragedy that happened in LA was in the neighborhood of the elementary school where I worked for seven years. Without exception, the members of that community agreed with you. (Hispanic Americans).

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 9:59am.

Thanks Muddle. That was very well thought out and articulated. The problem is that those that need to read and understand your piece regarding the moral principles in which you write probably couldn't get past the first paragraph.

The notion of human dignity implies that, while there may be such a thing as a useless person, there is no such thing as a worthless person. And this is because worth is not a function of performance. Dignity is not reducible to price.

This statement is perhaps the one that I struggle with the most and would tend to disagree with you on. Though I confess my attitudes may blind me from the truth. My thinking at this point in time in my life is that I view a useless person as a worthless person. An example would be a pedophile. I hate pedophiles and their influence in ruining precious and innocent lives. I find these people useless and worthless. Please note that is merely my judgement and I know God does view them with a sense of worth. But I honestly hate them and feel that they do not deserve to live another day to harm another. (And no folks...don't go attacking me for wanting to end the life of a public urination or mooning episode)


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 10:18am.

To say that worth is a function of usefulness is worrisome. It implies that the only value that a person has is extrinsic--not intrinsic. And this is just the assumption that rendered possible that remarkable Nazi manuscript, "On the Concept of a Life Devoid of Value."

Things get very complicated very quickly, but I think that the notion of human dignity is compatible with --and might even require--saying that there are circumstances in which taking someone's life is justified. It is precisely because we value human life as we do that we justify killing the terrorist who would wantonly murder the innocent.

"Respect" is ambiguous between (a) holding in high regard or esteem and (b) acknowledging the basic dignity of the person. I have zero respect in sense (a) for terrorists, pedophiles or CEOs of tobacco companies (this last is a joke, sort of). But I believe that I am morally required to cultivate respect in the sense of (b) for even these scoundrels. Among other things, this calls for my viewing the way in which they conduct themselves as a moral tragedy, as they have sullied and ruined something priceless--their own personhood as created in God's image.

Am I consistent with what I think to be right? For example, would I find myself capable of "loving" (in this strictly moral sense)someone whom I learned had molested one of my grandchildren? Perhaps--or probably--not. But perhaps this counts against me.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 12:34pm.

Hmmmm. You may be right. I did confess that I struggled in this with regards to pedophiles and I will broaden that to include terrorist and Hate Whitey Rap Music Producers (Ok..maybe the rap one is sort of a joke too). The last example regarding your grandchildren is an excellent point to somewhat justify my opinion that worth is a function of usefulness. I would hate to think that I sound like a Nazi for that one. Even God hates sin yet he thought us worthy enough to forgive us. Perhaps I should work on that one.

Well I will have to plea guilty on this charge. For right now my verdict on pedophiles will remain "Off With His Pee Pee". And that's the most generous I can be on that subject.


Submitted by tsk tsk on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 2:24pm.

let's not ponder this into moral neutrality.

Submitted by Interested bystander on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 12:42pm.

Reading the first few paragraphs of each of the blogs are interesting. You're both smart guys but I don't know if you can draw me away from College Football enough to read it all.

Trust me. If I thought the debate would do any good I'd be right there debating. Don't give up your stand on pedophiles Git Real. No one can debate that position into sanity.

Gonna watch the rest of the Georgia game. Love it when their kicking a$$.

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 1:05pm.

College football wins every time. Eye-wink


Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 10:52pm.

I look forward to reading the posts. It appears that the discussion has dealt more with morality tonight than actual relations between those of different 'races'. I think this is a good start. I found it enlightening that one poster felt that Atlanta - and its 'black' community had been the ruination of the city. Did I read this correctly? (Tomorrow college football - but I will check in.)

Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 5:46am.

I'm sorry but that is my opinion. I have lived here 14 yrs. I have lived in another country, and I have lived in 3 different states. I have never, never, never seen this kind of behaviour as blatantly as I have seen it here.

The big question I have is..... why??? Why is it a badge of honor to ruin communities???? It is a badge of honor or the black people would not keep wearing t-shirts with a slogan that says DeKalb, Clayton, next Fayette.
Why is it "fun" to ruin good communities??

If black people are just doing this to stick it to whitey, wouldn't that energy be better spent working hard to be successful?

kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 1:01am.

Sandra-unfortunately skyspy was correct about Atlanta. I am 39, born and raised in metro Atlanta, as was my Mother, Grandmother and Great-Grandmother. I love this city and it hurts to see what has happened to the places we grew up. I see things from this perspective: Neighborhoods that were once vital, thriving, clean, safe 'white' neighborhoods are now slums. From midtown to south Dekalb to East Point...all 'white flight' areas.

Maybe I'm just a racist redneck girl, but I don't understand why this happens when whites leave and blacks move in. Even if whites "moved up" other white families bought those homes and the neighborhoods went on as before. But when the neighborhoods became predominately black or minority...things went downhill fast. Businesses closed because crime went through the roof. Pawn shops and massage parlors replaced Baskin Robbins and Ace Hardware.

Some people like to pretend they see no difference in races, but those same people would NEVER have moved to Riverdale or College Park instead of here in sunny Fayette County. I don't promote racist behaviour or actions...but I am a realist. Crime increases when the black population increases. Whites fear that, and don't want to live in areas they don't feel safe in. That is not to say they hate black people or wish to harm them in any way. They probably just don't want to become crime victims. People can talk all they want about not being racists, but where they choose to live says alot.

None of this is meant to suggest that you personally are responsible for Atlanta's downfall because you are black. I'd just like to understand how black people themselves feel about "white flight" and what, if any responsiblity they take in the condition of the cities they ruin.


Submitted by fightracism1123 on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 12:06pm.

I would agree with you statement and I am black also. But you have to look at the big picture also. Actually it's home investors who destroy communites not the African Americans in general. Investors buy homes and then rent them out to low income families.

Even when communities have associations investors still are getting away with it. The only way to get around this, would be to pass a state law requiring the person who buys the home live in the home 5yrs unless he or she job moves them and then make that person show proof there job is relocating them. If that person lies, stick them with a heavy fine and they would stop. That is the only way to stop investors from bringing in the projects to subdivisions.

I don't understand my people either. We still have a slave mind set.

Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 6:40pm.

Thank you fightracism1123. You make some very good points. Home investors can be the worst nightmare for any neighborhood. I like your idea of a 5yr. residency law. That would cure some of it at least.

The t-shirt slogan of "DeKalb, Clayton, you are next Fayette" really set me off.

Anyway, if the good people stay and fight crime agressively maybe we can all win.

kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 2:51pm.

into this one, but I just can't seem to help myself. So, it's not the fault of the actual residents of these low income neighborhoods that destroy the homes...it's the owner's fault? Even if you were for real (which by now I should know you are using one of your extra screen names to set people like me off...) I think this point of view is hilarious. But, unfortunately, all too typical of many. Low income and poor are not synonymous for filthy and lazy. I grew up poorly after my parents divorced and never received public aid and we never trashed a place we lived, regardless of whom actually held the deed to the property. That's a class/culture issue. Some people are too proud to live in squalor and blame others for their plight. But there I go again...thinking I am responding to an actual post by an actual person...


Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 7:39am.

I certainly understand your perspective. The 'ruination' of some communities in Atlanta is typical of many communities that experience 'white flight' throughout our country. The problem is that you appear unaware of the 'black communities in Atlanta that are middle and upper middle class - and have been historically so since the 1920's. When 'whites' flee an area, property values go down and a class of people are allowed to occupy homes who have little or no knowledge of home ownership requirements. When any area is less than 7% 'black' - home values appear to remain constant. When an area becomes 11% or more 'black' - white flight may occur and property values decline. The area surrounding Auburn Avenue in Atlanta was a solid middle class 'black' community in the '20's. As middle class blacks left the community - and moved to areas such as The Cascades, the area declined. It was not 'blacks' who ruined the area - but a class of blacks who could not or would not maintain the area.

In many cities, today's generation of young white professionals are realizing that leaving areas that are close to their work is economically unwise.

In Fayette County - especially in Fayetteville, developers appear to try to maintain integrated neighborhoods. Middle and upper middle class blacks MAY leave Fayette County when builders start developing homes that are in the $90,000 to $100,000 bracket and sell to families that will not maintain their property. The feeling among the African Americans that I talk to is that the element that was allowed to begin the 'ruination' of Clayton County will not be able to afford to move to Fayette County. Young white families in a certain income bracket cannot afford to move to Fayette County.

I have been a homeowner for over 40 years. I look for an area that has outstanding schools; well maintained homes; and a thriving business community before I invest in home ownership. The area that fit the above mentioned qualifications in Georgia was Fayette County. There are a sizable number of black families in Fayette County. I am pleased to note that there are communities in our country where blacks and whites who have pride of ownership in their community joined together to maintain the integrity of their homes and community (schools, business areas, law enforcement, etc.) I hope that this will happen in Fayette County. There are many business owners in Fayette County - black and white - who hopefully will band together to insist that the communities in Fayette County remain attractive to those who wish to maintain the quality of life that supports good business. There are areas in Georgia that have a majority white population - but do not meet the qualifications that I insist on for investment. Since the civil rights movement - decline in communities has been associated with 'color'. Katrina brought out the 'secret' that a large majority of 'poor' in this country are people of color. Decline in communities is not based solely on 'color' - but economics also. I have seen 'poor' white communities in areas of our country (Appalachia) that are a disgrace to the 'richest country in the world'.

When homes that are being built in the $90,000 bracket are sold, I feel that young white and black families and many retired blacks and whites will/should purchase these homes.. . and maintain them. This can be done. When 'slumlords' (investors) purchase these homes and rely on Section 8 tenants for their income - problems may occur.

Metro Atlanta has more millionaires of color than any other location in the United States. Many of them live in Fayette County. What is feared is not 'black' but 'poor'. Crime is feared. If the police arrest one or more of my neighbors for 'drug dealing and/or distribution - I'll seriously consider moving - regardless of the color of that neighbor. The drug business brings a dangerous element to any neighborhood. .. and drug dealers (black and white and 'other') are right here in Fayette County.

There is a need to teach all Americans who are moving 'up' and can afford home ownership -which is the American dream - the responsibility of home ownership. This education used to be passed down from generation to generation. I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Cosby - and work in organizations that support 'each one teach one'. Successful 'whites and blacks' should provide education to 'whites and blacks' who are moving up. Someday - just saying Americans should help Americans will be understood. . .I hope.

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 7:21am.

"Maybe I'm just a racist redneck girl,..."

Have you ever climbed a water tower, paintbucket in hand, to defend your sister's honor?


kimberlyinptc's picture
Submitted by kimberlyinptc on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 2:39pm.

I don't have a sister (only child). Just for the record, my patio furniture was never once my living room furniture and we've never cut the grass and found an automobile. But I did have an Aunt that once had some people stop in her driveway and ask when the yard sale was starting...guess we really are rednecks after all Eye-wink


bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 7:42pm.

I do not believe it was wise to bring God into your argument.

Metaphysics and the belief that humans have a soul are going to be concepts that are too esoteric for this conversation.

I would think economics, education perhaps delving into the area of “self-worth” may be more prudent.

To my point, more people have died in the name of their God than from all other occurrences combined.

Religion has sparked more hatred and oppression than any other single source in recorded human history.

There are many who believe that their God has instructed them to rid the world of all that are not “true” believers. The interpretation of God’s teachings, to these people, is that a non-believer is worth nothing and killing a non-believer is not a punishable offence.

Depending on your interpretation of “God” it can be argued that killing any living thing is a crime “all living things were placed here by God”, strict Hindu interpretation, or killing those that are not true believers is not a crime, radical Muslim interpretation. Radical being my own description. Who’s right? Who am I do decide what is right for someone else?


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