I, as well, was going to ask where these Muslims, of this sect, are.

My suspecions are they are building the Mosque for some to move here and to try and convert others to this sect.

There simply is not much of a visible Muslim population around here.
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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

My reply to first question about where the Ismailis reside is that they live all across the globe. I for one am an Ismaili. Just because you have never seen or heard of them, does not mean they do not exist. In addition, your suspicion about the conversion of other people to Ismailism is definitely arguable. The stereotypical comment you made about the conversion of people is FALSE. We are not building a Jamatkhana or as you call it, "mosque," for converting people, it is to alleviate the time people spend driving to get to the current location of the Jamatkhana. I know this because I am aware of what is going on within our congregation. Thus, there are Ismailis all across the world. All you have to do is come out of the "stereotype" belief, and you will see the other side to things.

Who says I have never heard of your sect? Or am not aware of the MANY sects of Islam? Or the divisions among Shia, Sunni and other sects?

This approach may work on people new to this issue. But for those who have been in it for years, who are very aware, your line of debating, shown here, is SOP.

It is called evasive.

I know there are communities scattered across the world. Small, but there.

An easier access location than now? What nonsense.

'Arguable' is a semantical dodge for not stating it is a secondary purpose to building a meeting place for adherents.

Which boils down to the main point.

Why Fayette County? Why not the county with the highest density of people of your sect?

Money. That is why. You want to give a place for people of you community a more attractive place to move to. Further, you wish to draw in more people with money and power to your cause.

I invite you, as well, to go to the link in my profile and address the issues in the Islam Forum. Show us this other side you speak of.

But, as shown, your own main site states lies about history. Not a good start in showing you are 'different' than the other Islamics in your core beliefs.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Where are these people currently meeting while this new facility is being built? Does anyone know?
Santa Claus

Where is your congregation currently meeting? Is anyone welcome?
Santa Claus

the mosque's services one Sunday a month, the Baptist Church, the sinagogue and even the Mormons the other Sundays!!! Then I'll gather all those principles and will form the new church of the latter baptist muslims of fayette county, yeah!

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Making you think twice......

You will be in the mosque and synagogue by yourself. They don't meet on Sunday.

Spiritual speaking, that makes you confused and unknowing if you equate them. Politically speaking that makes you very PC.

Meaning you will be standing for nothing, knowing nothing and learning nothing.

Because the second you learn and see the real differences, you will understand why you cannot be all of them at the same time.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I, for one, never said there was not violence in the Bible.

But the Koran commands violence against non-Muslims. And sets aside special commands for violence against Christians and Jews.

And wow. Your anti-Christian bias is glaring.

God likes Abel's dead animals better than Cain's fruits and vegetables. Why? Well, no reason is given, but it probably has something to do with the amount of pain, blood, and gore involved. 4:3-5

Wrong. God had cursed the soil. Cain was making an offering from cursed ground.

The rest of your rhetoric is nothing but anti-Christian ramblings.

Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

Religious jealousy?

You have already made your bias abundantly clear.

And yep. God decided to kill all humanity except for Noah and his family.

Man had descended into sin to a depth that could not be reclaimed.

I doubt you believe in such a thing as sin nature and such.

But what is becoming clear here is your focus on animals. Hmmmmm.

Are you a vegatarian? A PETA member?

No. I don't hurt animals needlessly. In fact we feed birds and so on.

But God does not have to justify himself to me on these points.

Yep, Sara was not nice to Hagar. But God rescued Hagar and blessed her.

You kind of forgot to mention that.

As for Lot, you fail to mention the angels stopped the virgins from being touched.

Being righteous and just in God's eyes, when speaking of people in human realities, is a qualified issue. They are as just and righteous as able, being sinful people.

That does not make God cruel, it makes him forgiving.

Yep. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. They had descended into total perversion.

Lot's wife did not want to leave. When she looked back she became part of what she desired to possess.

And God and Isaac. Phoey on God substituting the goat for Isaac. The goat died!

And you ramble on and on. Focus on animals.

How about God becoming flesh and dying on the cross to save those who would repent? Can you name a greater amount of pain and unjust death than that?

Didn't count. Does not fit your agenda. Not animals.

No. The Bible is not free of death. We are born into death and the Bible is about how to escape it.

Seems you missed that message.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Shia Ismaili muslims are among the most moderate groups. Not to be confused with Iranian Shias...I am gld to see that diversity is coming to Fayette county. I recently relocated from Gwinnett county, and we have some community-friendly muslims there.

I stand behind what i said as fact.

You obivously do not have a clue what Islam believes or teaches.

Ismaili Web Intro Page

Islam is a religion of peace and historically the true believers have not persecuted members of other faiths...

This is a lie. Any student of history knows better than to accept this.

Under Sharia Law to convert from Islam is a death penalty, in example.

In their own writings they hold to the 'royal' lineage from which Islam believes the one who will purge the earth of non-Muslims will come.

Mohammad spread his message by the sword.

In the Ottoman Empire non-Muslims had no rights.

No. A fase declaration.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Added reading about this group.

This particualar sect is rejected by Islam in general.

But, that does not make them not Islam.

More moderate or not, their goals remain Islamic.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

PTC-

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about and nothing more than simply an idiot that likes to think of himself as an intellectual because you repeated the hateful things that other people have said.

Let's review some facts:

- Islam acknowledges Jesus as a prophet of God
- Since Muslim means "believer", non- Muslims are simply people who don't believe in God. It has nothing to do with religion.
- The Aga Khan has never dictated a "world take over" or the hate that you claim. In fact, he asks for tolerance, and his extensive development project help Muslims and non-Muslims alike, without an agenda for conversion

People like you, who simply watch the 700 Club and believe everything that they hear, are exactly the same as people who listen to Osama Bin Laden, and believe everything that they hear.

It is people like you, whether you are Christian, Muslim or Jew, that are the reason that they will never be any peace, because rather acknowledging pluralism, you would rather put yourself on a pedestal by advocating hate.

Go to www.akdn.org to learn more about the Ismailis

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -Sinclair Lewis, 1935

Fayette county has a very small but very loud band of Christian Fascists.

A Christian Facist is not a Christian per se, but a particular kind of Christian; they are political Christians rather than spiritual Christians. They stridently identify themselves as "true" Christians, but they prefer to be in the judgment seat, not before it.
Christian Facists are people who cross the line drawn by the First Amendment, because they think they alone have a direct line to God Almighty, and accordingly seek to impose God--THEIR idea of God, THEIR "bible-based" morals on us. THEY want their particular version, their peculiar interpretation of the Word of God, on our designedly secular government, and our religiously spiritually-diverse society. Oppose them and you’ll have your spirituality smugly questioned, or declared to be a “secular humanist”.
Christian Facists would like to teach the children of our country that United States of America is a Christian Nation, established from the very beginning on Christian principles by the Founding Fathers. The truth about our founding fathers and our nation is a lot more complicated than that, but Christian Fascists don't like complications. Their political principle is "Keep it simple, stupid"--for the credulous, the gullible, and the self-deluded. Dumb it down so it fits on a bumper sticker or can be repeated ad infinitum on Faux News.
White, black.
Good, evil.
Right, wrong.
With us, against us.
They live in a binary world. Christian Facists like to feel that they are surrounded by enemies, and they want us, their fellow citizens of Peachtree City, to feel that way as well.
Christian Facists believe in unity through fear and demonization of others. This is why you’ll see them railing against Muslims and Mosques in this thread.
Do you want to live in fear? They do.

The nation was founded on Christian principals. Freedom of religion and choice are Christian principles.

What you chaff at is the part on personal responsibility. The idea things are right and wrong, not eternal shades of gray.

A question here. What was Sinclair Lewis' religious beliefs? Please enlighten us.

Does this have meaning about him?

Beacon (Melbourne, Australia) "Sinclair Lewis Died a Humanist," October 1951

Your declarations here are your inventions. Not facts.

I do not fear Muslims. But I recognize Islam is dangerous.

It is hysterical you are seemingly defending Islam, when we know, in your belief system, your religion, Islam is more offensive to you than Christianity.

Humanists rely on semantical game playing. Facts don't mean much to them.

This was seen as an opportunity to attack Christianity. Reserve Islam for another day.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

The nation was founded on Christian principals. Freedom of religion and choice are Christian principles.
Ask any woman nowadays seeking an abortion about your purported Christian “freedom of choice”.
What you chaff at is the part on personal responsibility. The idea things are right and wrong, not eternal shades of gray.
You are attempting to put words in my mouth once again. I did not mention my beliefs regarding personal responsibility. Your attempt to conflate “personal responsibility” and “shades of grey” are mendacious. You bear false witness once again.
A question here. What was Sinclair Lewis' religious beliefs? Please enlighten us.
An answer here. What does Sinclair Lewis’ religious beliefs have to do with anything?
Does this have meaning about him? Beacon (Melbourne, Australia) "Sinclair Lewis Died a Humanist," October 1951
Oh, you’re intimating that he’s a “humanist” of some sort? Exactly how is this germane to the discussion? “Attack the source”?
Your declarations here are your inventions. Not facts.
Repeating something over and over does not make your argument any more valid. You have a habit of declaring anything YOU say as “fact”, and anything contrary to your argument as “Not facts”. It’s not up to you to decide, your inherent desire to play both the roles of district attorney and judge simultaneously notwithstanding.
I do not fear Muslims. But I recognize Islam is dangerous.
I’d say that a casual reading of the posts in this thread belies that claim. You appear to have a deep-seated fear and loathing of all things Islam.
It is hysterical you are seemingly defending Islam, when we know, in your belief system, your religion, Islam is more offensive to you than Christianity.
The only thing that is hysterical is you. I am simply pointing out that in a country founded on religious tolerance (or “religious freedom”, as you called it above), your singular intolerance is by far the minority exception to the rule.
Humanists rely on semantical game playing. Facts don't mean much to them.
Christian Fascists rely on semantical game playing. Facts don't mean much to them.. (See? I can play the demagogue game every bit as you!!)
This was seen as an opportunity to attack Christianity. Reserve Islam for another day.
I made it quite clear that I was not attacking Christianity. I was attacking that political brand of secular Christianity that I call “Christian Fascism”. And I stand by my comments, my false-witness-bearing friend.
I look forward to your inevitable spluttering fact-free response.

"Christian Fascism", the vertical, authoritarian and intolerant view of the world by those who would like to see a church in every block (some parts of Georgia look just like that). This got to be the equivalent to those fundamentalist Muslim groups or hardcore, highly politicized militias that exist in other parts of the world.

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson (who calls for assesination of elected foreign leaders), Jimmy Swaggart and, more close to us, PTC Guy have made a living of this twisted Christian ideology. What a contrast with, for example, Mother Teresa, a Catholic nun who served the dying poor in Calcutta, India. Oh! but according to this guys and their fascistoid rethoric, she is not a Christian (Catholics are not Christians for these preachers of hate).

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Making you think twice......

Ask any woman nowadays seeking an abortion about your purported Christian “freedom of choice”.

Freedom of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Not there for the baby in your 'freedom.'

You are attempting to put words in my mouth once again. I did not mention my beliefs regarding personal responsibility.

But you already have. You have spelled out very clearly on so many moral issues personal responsibility means squat.

Your attempt to conflate “personal responsibility” and “shades of grey” are mendacious. You bear false witness once again.

No. I don't.

Abortion. A woman's choice to have an abortion is upheld over the life of the baby.

Your guys arguments are shades of gray over the iron clad fact a baby dies.

Or gay rights. They want so the get. History and all other issues standing against it is dismissed because 'they want it' and you have a disdain for looking at anything else in the issue.

An answer here. What does Sinclair Lewis’ religious beliefs have to do with anything?

It has everything to do with it! Humanisms hatred for Christianity colors every word the say or write on the issues. Their shades of gray thinking has no respect for any kind fo truth or morality.

Oh, you’re intimating that he’s a “humanist” of some sort? Exactly how is this germane to the discussion?

You posted a quote from him as if it had hard hitting meaning. I am showing the source of the thinking behind the quote.

Your declarations here are your inventions. Not facts.
Repeating something over and over does not make your argument any more valid. You have a habit of declaring anything YOU say as “fact”, and anything contrary to your argument as “Not facts”. It’s not up to you to decide, your inherent desire to play both the roles of district attorney and judge simultaneously notwithstanding.

What a joke.

You declare the US was not Christian based. I show, from history, it was. You keep declaring it was not so based on the evidence of you declaring it.

Yea. Right. You are not the one trying to say something over and over until it becomes fact. Base on nada.

I’d say that a casual reading of the posts in this thread belies that claim. You appear to have a deep-seated fear and loathing of all things Islam.

That is your reading and your problem.

I recognize that a hole in the roof will flood my house. Do I repair it out of fear or out of common sense and a knowledge what will happen if I don't? Common sense and outcome.

The only thing that is hysterical is you. I am simply pointing out that in a country founded on religious tolerance (or “religious freedom”, as you called it above), your singular intolerance is by far the minority exception to the rule.

Religious intolerance says I would be trying to legally or foricible stop them from building or living here. I am doing neither.

Common sense and awareness says alert the community to what is happening, now, and what will happen, future.

Islam is Islam. Claims of not wanting to convert, denial of history and the rest are lies. They speak of an orchestrated agenda. Pre-planned and ready to roll, as the sudden appearance of member, here, with SOP style arguments and presentations, testifies too.

Where were these people prior to NOW? Where are the actually NOW?

Christian Fascists rely on semantical game playing. Facts don't mean much to them.. (See? I can play the demagogue game every bit as you!!)

And you don't? Name me a Fascist governement that was ever Christian.

Or do you even know what a Fascist is, in fact?

I made it quite clear that I was not attacking Christianity. I was attacking that political brand of secular Christianity that I call “Christian Fascism”. And I stand by my comments, my false-witness-bearing friend.

You made nothing clear.

You tried to say a Christian who is not a Christian but a politician. As if Christians cannot be anything but spiritual. They have no place in politics.

Get over it. The First Congress was loaded with Christians.

No. You nonsense a Christian is not suppose to be anywhere except within 4 walls with his fellow fools is garbage and intolerance on a scale that makes it hypocritical for you to call anyone intolerant.

But, back on subject, are you that blind you do not see the agenda behind the mosque coming here? Build the mosque and then bring in the people?

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Deuteronomy 17

17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

That passage does not support your contention at all.

You are citing a passage dealing with OT covenant Israel. It did not apply to the Gentile nations.

These were people in covenant with God. They broke the covenant and this was the punishment.

Trying to set this up as declaring Christianity bad is a staw man argument.

Your like and dislike of the Bible does not make the Bible part good and part bad. It simply says you hold your thinking superior to what God has revealed.

The purpose of religion is to find truth. There are not many true gods, there is one true God. There are not many holy scriptures, there is one holy scripture.

Your responsibility is to make sure you find the one that is true.

If you are willing, in truth, God will lead you there.

But most want to find what they desire instead. And that is false religion.

God gave freewill. He set Conscience within us, which includes knowin we need him.

We also have sin nature. Eve disobeyed and Adam followed. His disobedience gave us sin nature.

How we deal with those realities is our responsibility. But we will be held accountable for our decisions.

We have both sides of the coin within us. We decide which side wins.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I never said Christianity was bad. In fact, the only statement I made was that no religion is perfect, which is an opinion that no amount of speak about the "one holy word" (also an opinion) is going to dissuade me on.

I think religion can be a wonderful thing. But it can also lead people to commit unspeakable, inhuman acts. This goes for all religions.

You seem to be speaking in circles.

You did say ALL religions had good and bad. Does that not include Christianity?

No, you did say that, not just no religion is perfect. A shift of words that carry the same meaning.

Dissuading you or not, it is a fact. Not all religions can be true. That is simple logic.

There is a distinction between what Christianity teaches and what one does in the name of Christianity. The error of the person does not render Christiainity responsible or imperfect. In simply shows the person failed.

Christianity is not a religion of the creation of men. It is a creation of God.

Man has often become apostate and perverted the teachings. But that never makes those errors from God or his Bible.

No. I did not twist your words. Maybe you just didn't make your point clearly or correctly?

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I could'nt have said it better myself. Sadly we are surrounded by this type of "christian" in PTC. I believe in God, but I do not believe in people who say they are christian because of the horrible way they act.

Satan believes in God. But that does not make him a follower of God.

It takes more than belief to be a Christian.

I have known people who believe in God and the Bible. That they are fact and true. But will not repent and submit to God because they would rather be in Hell than put anyone or anything in charge of them.

No. One does not have to agree with me every step of the way. But most assuredly if you believe Islam and such have the God and Christ of the Bible, you are very ignorant on the subject.

And if you believe the core beliefs of Islam are peaceful and embracing of Christianity, you are absolutely ignorant.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

You just proved my point! You Christians are soooo full of yourselves the whole world just revolves around you! Your bible is just as hacked up and carelessly thrown back together as the koran. It was written by many different authors, and king james threw out the parts he didn't like. Get a grip! God, (everyones God), made everything on earth, and we are all valuable(even the satanic teenagers in PTC).
Until you christians start to live your faith (not just talk about it) people will not be drawn to your religion.

You just proved my point! You Christians are soooo full of yourselves the whole world just revolves around you!

And what are you full of?

I uphold everyone's right to believe what they wish. You get venomous when someone hold something different than you do.

Your bible is just as hacked up and carelessly thrown back together as the koran.

Obviously you have not studied history. That is a foolish statement about Bible canon.

It was written by many different authors,

Correction, written by one author, God, via different hands.

Your kind have been trying to demonstrate conflict and contradiction for centuries. Some of Christianity's greatest advocates began as those set up to destroy it factual.

But the fact converted them.

and king james threw out the parts he didn't like.

That argument does not stand up against the OT canon established centuries before Christ. Or in light of the accepted writings circulated prior to the first written Bibles and most of the first versions.

Get a grip! God, (everyones God), made everything on earth, and we are all valuable(even the satanic teenagers in PTC).

Yep. Everyone's God did it all.

But not everyone's god is that God. Most are their inventions.

Until you christians start to live your faith (not just talk about it) people will not be drawn to your religion.

There are many who call themselves Christian who are not Christian.

The Bible speaks of such in the 7 churches of Revelation, those with itching ears, false Christs, false gods, false teachers and so on.

The Bible is very clear there are many gods, but only one true God.

The failures of many do not negate that fact.

Nor does you rejection of that truth make you right.

People who find God seek God because they want the truth and the real God. They do not look for feel goodisms, fancy titles on preachers or any of the rest. They look for TRUTH.

No Christian on the face of this earth is perfect. We all fail at times.

But that is not a valid reason for your hatred of Christianity and the Bible. It is an excuse for self justification.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I agree that FOX News and organized religion, at least the ignorant brand, fit into the same category. It is somewhat fascist in that there is no room for disagreement with central command about ANYTHING.
It is the belief that if any disagreement is allowed that those in power may be thrown out by the dissenters. Heaven forbid! Exceptions are made however by the higher-ups, such as declaring that an influential person's marriage never existed, even though there might be a half-dozen children by the marriage. Can't happen for a peasant though, as that might cause all of them to want it. A bunch of crap! Latest one: Tom Cruise's former wife. It is hard to be a good person, who lives logically, to attend a church with so much BS.

Yea. And you believed the framers and signers of the Constituion were most Deists.

No admission you were wrong or anything else.

You have proven you don't care about facts. You want what you want and that is the bottom line.

Right and wrong? Truth and lie? Nope, you want shades of gray feel good that make you feel great about yourself.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

It is a waste of time to argue with someone who refuses to look up anything he doesn't know. For the last time, the following "founding Fathers" were Deists: Tom Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin, Ethan Allan, James Madison.James Monroe. Again: Mixing any religion, much less hundreds of kinds of religions, with governing can not succeed and never has. It is an ignorant and selfish approach that causes wars. Do your personal thing with religion and don't try to herd cats.

http://www.adherents.com/people/pm/James_Monroe.html

Like Madison, a confused mix that even those of his day refused to label as being anything clear.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison

Every listing shows he was a mixture of Episopalian and Deism.

So, you cannot claim him as Deist. He is more confused and unclear on the issue than anything else.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

He was a Freethinker, not a Deist.

There is a difference.

http://us.geocities.com/peterroberts.geo/Relig-Politics/EthanAllen.html

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

PTC Guy insinuates that there is a difference "freethinkers" and "Deists". As usual, he cites a Geocities vanity webpage to support his view.

The esteemed Encylopedia Brittanica says otherwise.
Here's the link

From their article on Deism:
Free-thinker was generally taken to be synonymous with " deist," though obviously capable of a wider signification...

Gosh, who to believe? PTC Guy and his Geocities buddies? or the Encyclopedia Brittanica? Decisions, decisions....

It is an accident of history that "Free-thinker" and "Deist" were taken, for a time, to be synonymous.

The reason, I think, is that Deism, a metaphysical view thsat made but a cameo appearance in the history of ideas, was the worldview of choice for those who found themselves unable to embrace a full-blown orthodxy with its purported revelation claims. Immanuel Kant, writing at about the time when Deism was en vogue, summarized the essence of Enlightenment with the slogan, "Have the courage to think for yourself." Evidently, a good many intellectuals of the day took this to entail a rejection of revelation and, with it, the miraculous. (Today, Naturalism has superceded Deism. It is likely that Deism was attractive prior to Darwin because without appeal to an Intelligent Designer of some kind the apparent designedness of things remained inexplicable. As Richard Dawkins has observed, it is hard to imagine having been an intellectually fulfilled atheist before Darwin. Interestingly, one of the notorious atheists of our day, Anthony Flew, has moved to a position resembling Deism primarily on the grounds that the Fine-Tuning of the universe seems to him strongly to suggest a Designer.)

But, of course, being a "Free-thinker" does not, in itself, entail such a view. One might think for oneself and find oneself being led to rather orthodox conclusions. I have. Consider G.K. Chesterton's comparison of himself to the yachtsman who sails forth from England in search of a new land, but unwittingly sails in a circle, and "conquers" a land that he soon discovers to be the pavillion at New Brighton. Chesterton found that as he attempted to hammer out a satisfactory philosophy of the universe, it looked suspiciously like the orthodoxy that he had thought himself compelled to reject.

To think Free-thinking to be incompatible with any of the old orthodoxies is to commit oneself to the absurd (and dubiously coherent) position that all conclusions reached in the past must be rejected and replaced.

And, of course, John Locke, one of the first names to come to mind when thinking of the Enlightenment, was an orthodox Christian to the extent that he was an evidentialist apologist who argued that Christian truth claims are supported by the evidence.

Well said. Deism and Free-thinker are indeed not one and the same.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Trying to say many of the "signers" of the Constitution were christians comparable to what we know as christians today, is non-sensical. There was not a catholic, a holy roller, a snake handler, a southern baptist, an AME, a methodist, a hard shell baptist, a church of Christer, a church of God member, nor not one televangelist among them. They came here to get rid of religion in their government and although they said anyone could be what he wanted---it had nothing to do with voting for some guy. Quit trying to make politicians conservative christians, just be one.

Heck, I don't know. Whatever else, I claim John Adams as a bro.

Bro.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Wrong, highgreen.

They absolutely did not come to get rid of Christianity in government. They came to allow all Christians, not just those of one denomination, to take part in government.

The Constitution says no ONE religion can be the state religion. With that, to them, meaning Christianity, since no other relgions were players in any form to them.

But it also says the government can make NO LAW barring religion from entering into government.

Religion can impact government, but government cannot ordain on denomination THE official one.

And you are wrong. There were Baptists in the Colonies. One state tried to make it the official relgion. There were Catholics. There were methodists. There were Hard Shell Baptists (my family was among the first settlers in Kentucky, at the turn of the 1800s and were Hard Shells.

The TV and such are simply sarcasms from you.

Christianity comparable to now is a false argument. Christianity, in its purity, has been around for 2,000 years.

I am not trying to make the government Christian. But I sure am not going to stand by while you try to make it illegal, driving it from every public aspect of society.

Again, first acts of Congress created CHRISTIAN chaplains. First Fed paid school systems where CHRISTIAN.

Stop trying to rewrite history to justify your making Christianity illegal. Or deny the roots of our laws and government you do not like today.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

A free thinker can hold to principles of Desism. But a Deist will not hold to all the principles of Freethought.

Right there in the definition.

Allen did not hold to the limitations of Desism. Therefore he was Feethought

Theology holds to there being a distinction between the two groups.

And it still does not even make a scratch on the fact the majority were Christians, not Deists, Unitarian and Freethough combined.

You still have about 95% to deal with.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Could you give us a rest for one night from the constant religious debate or find a web site devoted to that. Enough already.

There is one in my profile that does that.

I have, in fact, invited them there. But they choose to post these issues here.

I note here you only address my posts. What about the liberals and humanists I am replying to?

Note. I respond to THEM. I do not initiate these issues.

No offense taken. But really, the mosque and these guys trying to rewrite history and America are important issues.

Oh, yea. I ain't leaving.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

http://pirate.shu.edu/~train2/Ben Franklins Religious Views.htm

These are NOT Deist statements. A Deist rejects any possibility of Christ being devine. Being noncommital on the religion of others is not Deist.

By his own words he never studied enough on the issues to connect himself to ANY specific religion.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

The link you used to support your argument is somebody's vanity page PARAPHRASING his own interpretation of Ben Franklin's religious beliefs. There is NO documentation to support his claims. It's a pastiche of Franklin quotes with no background to determine the context of the quotes.

If you are truly interested in Franklin's religious beliefs, why not look at Ben Franklin's own autobiography? Specifically Chapter 4, page 1 where he discusses his spiritual beliefs.

Here's a link: Click here for Ben Franklin's autobiography

And here's Franklin discussing his religious views in his own words:

But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of the Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of the sermons which had been preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them. For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.

Worth repeating:
I soon became a thorough Deist.

His declaration in later life contained many statements that were not Deist in belief or meaning. I believe you find them in the link I gave.

Nor was he, or he and a couple of others, exclusively responsible for founding this country.

Look at the list of the framers and signers of the Constitution, They WERE no where near being mainly Deists as claimed. A far scream from the truth.

Get history back in true balance and your guys attempts fall flat. You have to look at ALL the framers and signers of the Constitution, not just a few. Or include those who did not even take part.

3 out of over 100 is not an awe inspiring argument for you.

I repeat, the first two acts of Congress were to appoint Christian chaplains. The first federally funded schools were built by churches.

You guys just will not touch those facts.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I soon became a thorough Deist.

Clear. Unambiguous.

But since it doesn't jibe with your preconceived beliefs, you cannot admit that in this instance you were 100% wrong.

You said Ben Franklin was not a deist.

I replied with a direct quote to the contrary from Ben Franklin himself that absolutely disproves your claim.

Yet you lack the moral fiber to admit you were wrong.

Rather than be a man and own up to your misstatement, you reiterate your own belief in your unsourced vanity webpages...and then you attempt to change the subject.

Your parents were obviously miserable failures when it came to instilling values in you. I shudder to think of the example you set for your own children.

Of course he can't admit he is wrong. This is one of the core personality traits of PTC_Guy.

Haven't we already been over this founding father argument? I think we established that Franklin was a deist last month.

Let me see now.

I cannot admit I was wrong. Hmmmm.

Basmati, highgreen and so on declared the majority of the Founders were Deists, that the Declaration had no foundation in Christianity at all and other such claims.

I posted the lists of the religions of the framers of the Constitutio and the signers. THREE out of about ONE HUNDRED were Deists.

Did ONE of them admit they were wrong. No.

All that happened was an attempt to spin the issues by listing a handful of claimed Deists, as if that proves their claim. As if their little list was the sum total of the founders, or founders at all.

I posted refutations to a number of their Deist claims. And here you are, with blinders on, refusing to face the facts they were WRONG in their claims. In fact joining in on their FALSE claims.

And don't even go to the first two acts of Congress being to appoint CHRISTIAN chaplains. Or that the first federal funded schools were built by CHRISTIAN churches.

Just disregard the Constitution says the Feds cannot prevent religion from entering the government, while not allowing any ONE denomination to be a national religion.

You guys just spout and blow about how others are wrong and will never admit error. Yet, you never admit error.

The term for that is hypocrisy.

You are wrong on this subject, history says you are wrong and no amount of attempts at rewriting history, spinning or selective posting quotes, a number of which were out of context, will change that.

You guys are so situational ethics it is sickening at times. As long as the results get what you want the means are justified.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

In your shopping cart world you refuse to confront what else one says.

Is one who says they are a Deist one moment then embraces very non-Deists beliefs another a true Deist?

Or is that one that is non commited to any actual belief system?

How about an admission from you guys the framers and signers were NOT majority Deists? I have never heard that admission!

Nope. Hit you guys with facts and you just disappear. Pooof!!! Or try to spin the facts into something else.

Good grief. Clinton says he is a Christian and oral sex isn't sex. Does that make it so?

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

He was a Deist.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Unclear what he was.

Some say he was a Deist. A family member insisted he was a Christian.

No one can demand Washington was clearly of any belief system as of this moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington

Same is said on many site. Some list him as Episcopalean.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I posted the list of religions of the framers and signers of the Constitution.

Out of over 100 only 3 were Deists.

Get over it.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

You and the others who keep espousing this Deist nonsense do not know what you are talking about.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

The majority of them were Masons who despised organized religion. That is why they went the way of separating church and state. They envisioned and anticipated all the problems we would have if government were to embrace religion as their guiding light. Their humanist vision is expressed all over the documents they wrote.

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Making you think twice......

been watching National Treasure again?

Making you think twice.....

When Masonry has its own religion.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I've got a lot of friends within them, very wealthy, like yours truly.
Of course you would start your slander saying they will burn in hell, they're un-Christian, a sect, a danger to our society, etc, etc, etc.

Our founding fathers were free masons, signs are all over the historical places and documents(and yes, pussycat, I saw National Treasure, how do you think I get my facts?)

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Making you think twice......

That's Lion to you boy. Not sure where you get your opinions from. Please enlighten me though. I'm coming to understand now that the Masons founded this country and drafted our constitutional documents. Gosh...glad you showed you rotted face.

Hey. When you play games do you just kind of like make up the rules as you go along? Be careful now....Cal's got his eye on you.

Is Cal a one-eyed guy?
In some games I do make up the rules, like when I am playing with cats.
The Masons also left their signage on our dollar bills. Next time you get your chow, take a close look to the money. In God We trust!

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Making you think twice......

You are pushing the envelope of good taste (note your edited post about Dunn from Wed.).

Keep it civilized. On this site pretty much anything in good taste goes, except obscenity, gratuitous profanity, porn and calling people Nazis and baby-killers and the like. Rein it in.

publisher
The Citizen
Fayetteville, Ga. 30214

Finally I get to meet you.

I will keep it civilized and apologize for my misplaced comment on Dunn. I thought we were discussing the war in Iraq and the realities there, which I would hope you, as a serious journalist, are aware.

On the same line, some of the felines making fun of my face don't show too good taste either. Do they have a "get our of jail card"? They seem to call on you every other post.

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Making you think twice......

I tried to warn you. Didn't I also tell you that I'm on the payroll here?

Would you define "serious journalist" for me? It appears after many years of observing what the left considers a "serious journalist" that it would be one that reports exactly as they perceive or desire the news to be.

Check out jihadwatch.org or dhimmiwatch.org and read the continuous global stories of the danger of Islam. Furthermore, in reply to Apisnow, Muslims see Jesus as basically Muhammed.... in that Jesus preached Islam and Christians preverted the message, correct? Also you say Muslim means believer, (it actually means one who submits) and that non-Muslims are simply people who don't believe in God...look, lots of people believe in God and they aren't Muslims. That is Islam's whole problem; an arrogant, supremacist outlook.
And people know it, you can't hide what Islamic-dominated countries are like and how they treat non-Muslims. You can't make us in the free world ignore it (OR ELSE!) like you do in Muslim-majority countries. You can try though I suppose, so give it your best shot (figuratively speaking OF COURSE!) but we have the freedom to criticise your and anyone's religion, especially when it is a political, all-encompassing one such as Islam.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about and nothing more than simply an idiot that likes to think of himself as an intellectual because you repeated the hateful things that other people have said.

As a student of history, relgions and theology, I know exactly what I am talking about.

I even posted this groups home page for people to read themselves.

If I am so wrong then go to the link in my profile and to the forum on Islam. Dispute what is said there if you can.

Let's review some facts:

- Islam acknowledges Jesus as a prophet of God

A prophet, yes. Not God in the flesh, Messiah or Savior. They pervert history.

Also, Isa (Christ) will be with the Muslim armies and the Mahdi, conquering the world in their End Time prophecies. He will determine who is Muslim and who is not, thus who will live and who will die.

The Muslim Isa is neither the God of the Bible nor the man found in actual history.

I have debated Islamics on their forums and they only know how to regurgitate what has been fed them by their leadership.

You point out a historical documents refuting them on Jesus and their own history. You get told the Catholics rewrote history.

You point out archaelogical and other digs containing material evidence. You get attempts are explaining them away as cults and other liars and not the followers of Christ.

You ask for their evidence backing them. You get claims from Mohammed and those that followed him.

You point out the Koran was not written until 200 years after Mohammed, that there were several versions of the Koran written and that ONE man decided which was correct and burned the others. You get God insured the oral translation were faithful and these others were liars.

You point out their Allah, even their symbols, came from Persian Mystic polytheism and you get called a liar.

You point out Mohammed was never at Jerusalem. Now they can no longer deny that and say he was their in the spirit.

And much more. But mostly your posts get censored and you get threatened with banning if you challenge much of anything.

Right. I know nothing about Islam.

- Since Muslim means "believer", non- Muslims are simply people who don't believe in God. It has nothing to do with religion.

Really? Amazing claim. False, but amazing.

- The Aga Khan has never dictated a "world take over" or the hate that you claim. In fact, he asks for tolerance, and his extensive development project help Muslims and non-Muslims alike, without an agenda for conversion

Do they or do they not uphold the prophecies given of the End Times? Is the Mahdi going to appear? Do they uphold the Koran?

People like you, who simply watch the 700 Club and believe everything that they hear, are exactly the same as people who listen to Osama Bin Laden, and believe everything that they hear.

I have no use for the 700 Club or TBN. I am a Biblical Christian, not a WoF'er or any such thing.

It is people like you, whether you are Christian, Muslim or Jew, that are the reason that they will never be any peace, because rather acknowledging pluralism, you would rather put yourself on a pedestal by advocating hate.

I am not advocatin hate. I am dealing with reality.

Go to www.akdn.org to learn more about the Ismailis

Gee. Can I guess you are both a Muslim and a member of this sect? Or at least the development corp behind them?

I posted the sect home site. You posted the corp home site.

For the purposes of a Mosque, here, the sect site tells a ton more about what is believed and not believed. And sheds light on fact versus fiction when examined carefully.

Your trying to circumvent that by appealing to 'humanitarian' issues. I am after the ultimate goal.

By the way, you did not address my point on the lie of Islam not persecuting non-Muslims, in history, beginning with Mohammed. One of those fact versus fiction issues.

Here is an educational comparison of End Time Beliefs for those not aware of such things.

Yes, Islam claims to be the people of Allah and of peace. But which god is theirs and what is the meaning of peace is where the meat of the issue lies.

Look at Europe, where the populations of Islamics have grown. Even those families there for generations are taking part in the efforts to carve out Islamic islands or force Islam on those around them.

This sect is a minority sect. So, holding up a group rejected by the vast majority of Islam in defense of Islam does nothing to negate the realities of the threat Islam represents.

And with anothe Mosque in Fayetteville, there are going to be tensions on that level as well.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Firstly, you just agreed with my comment. A Muslim is one that submits- that means ANYONE that submits to God is a Muslim in that sense. Further politisizing has peverted that notion, but if you are going to refer to the Quran, that is what it is talking about.

Remember, that Muslims and Christians co-existed without imposition of religion for thousands of years in the Middle East. Like I said before, Jesus is seen as a prophet- not another Muhammed. Muhammed is simply seen as the last prophet.

Clearly there are political leaders that have waged evil in the name of Islam- I am not contesting that. But in my opinion, those people are not really practicing Islam. Because of economic and political circumstances, this has happened and it is not excusable.

But by the same taken, none of the other faiths have their hands clean. Every faith has taken religion to justify their acts. Perhaps it is not as apparent as it is with Islam, but the regular Iraqi who had their family slaughter, raped or bombed by a Western nation can easily assume that it was Christianity, who hatred for Islam is fueled from home, that did this to them.

At the end of the day, you can not look at an Islamic country and simply assume that because of what is going on there, it resembles the ideals of one of the largest faith in the world. Funny that you didn't pick a country like Turkey as an example, that does have freedom of religion. Same with Palestine, where Christianity is practiced freely (despite what you might hear on the 700 Club).

And you don't have to look past the religious right in this country to find people advocating a supremist, arrogant faith where the end goal is not co-existence with other religions, but conversion to Christianity.

Firstly, you just agreed with my comment. A Muslim is one that submits- that means ANYONE that submits to God is a Muslim in that sense. Further politisizing has peverted that notion, but if you are going to refer to the Quran, that is what it is talking about.

Do not start the theological semantical game playing.

The god of Islam is not the God of the Bible or Christianity. There is not the faintest resemblence.

It is not the god of Judaism, Mormonism or any other religion.

It holds anyone who believes in any god other than the Islamic Allah to believe in a false god.

Remember, that Muslims and Christians co-existed without imposition of religion for thousands of years in the Middle East.

That is a blatant lie.

Mohammed spread Islam by the sword. As did his followers after his death.

The Ottoman Empire forced conversions or stripped you of human dignity and freedom. Christians and Jews had to wear colored scarves that declared that had no rights and were subject to the whims of Muslims.

You are deliberately lying or totally ignorant of history.

Like I said before, Jesus is seen as a prophet- not another Muhammed. Muhammed is simply seen as the last prophet.

And again, he is not seen as God incarnate. He is not seen as the Jesus of history or the Bible.

He has been rewritten into a false Jesus that never existed in fact.

Clearly there are political leaders that have waged evil in the name of Islam- I am not contesting that. But in my opinion, those people are not really practicing Islam. Because of economic and political circumstances, this has happened and it is not excusable.

So, all the Middle east is false Islam?

But by the same taken, none of the other faiths have their hands clean. Every faith has taken religion to justify their acts. Perhaps it is not as apparent as it is with Islam, but the regular Iraqi who had their family slaughter, raped or bombed by a Western nation can easily assume that it was Christianity, who hatred for Islam is fueled from home, that did this to them.

Political jargon.

It is Islamics rioting and trying to turn parts of Europe into Islamic Islands under Sharia Law.

They see personal freedoms and do not want them.

It is Islamics trying to overthow the government in places such as the Phillipines, Indonesia and on and on.

They are doing so because they deny there is any other rightful government but Islam.

Yes, many evil things have been done in the name of religion.

The Inquisition caused the death of millions of Christians who refued to bow to Rome.

In Ireland people have died in the name of Christianity.

But, at the same time, there have always been Biblical Christians who would rather die than bow.

How many died under pagan Rome? How many died under the Ottoman and such Empires? How many died in the Inquistion.

But the distinction is the holy books and founders of the religions.

Mohammad was not a man of peace. Nor were his successors. Christ was. The Apostles were.

The Koran tells Muslims to kill, drive out or enslave Christians and Jews for just being Christians and Jews.

That is undeniable.

At the end of the day, you can not look at an Islamic country and simply assume that because of what is going on there, it resembles the ideals of one of the largest faith in the world. Funny that you didn't pick a country like Turkey as an example, that does have freedom of religion. Same with Palestine, where Christianity is practiced freely (despite what you might hear on the 700 Club).

Turkey is 99% Muslim. And they are attacking Christians.

And do not forget that the internal issues with the Kurds is also Muslim on Muslim.

And you don't have to look past the religious right in this country to find people advocating a supremist, arrogant faith where the end goal is not co-existence with other religions, but conversion to Christianity.

Your propoganda is well rehearsed. But a lie.

This nation was founded by Christians who were escaping to have religious freedom.

If they wanted a Christian only nation they would have set it up as one.

But being a Biblical Christian is to honor each person's religious and other freedoms. To the full extent possible.

The Domionists are a small minority of Christians in this country. And they cannot get around the resistance of other Christians who reject their extremism.

In Islam the hard core is the norm. The more tolerant are the exception. And are rejected as being true Muslim.

Again, go to the link in my profile and respond to the Islam Forums topics.
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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Amen to PTC GUY!! Thanks for having the guts to call out those Muslims who are bent on distorting Christianity and belittle its followers. Keep the facts coming.

For those who choose to follow Islam, that's your choice but all I ask is that you be honest about your faith. Do not continue to lie about the fact that your faith calls for world domination or destruction of those who will not follow. For example, please see a recent news story about a Middle Eastern man who converted to Christianity and returned home to his native land, only to be arrested and threatened with death for possessing a Bible in his home and for his conversion to Christianity-this was only a few months ago. Had it not been for international outcry, he would be dead today. Remember most of the Muslim clerics unequivocally called for his head on a platter and those who didn't...did so in silence.

And that's all I have to say about that

Wow PTC Guy, you would have made a great Inquisitor. Your diatribes and analysis would have put hundreds to the flames. I don't see Muslims in the US being the radicals you portrait. I tell you what, why don't you and I visit with them once the new Mosque is completed, so we can build bridges and get a better understanding, first hand I mean, not from all those quirky books and TV shows you get your information from.

Been to New York Washington DC or Pennsylvania recently? Do you own a TV or a radio? Have you read any book, good or bad in the last three years?

I knew you were at the point where the facts would not get addressed and you would go personal.

Actually, those of my beliefs were the ones the Inquistors were killing. So don't even try going there.

How about actually trying to address the historical facts I pointed out instead of trying to bait and switch the issues stated.

As for those in the US. You did not see them acting radical in Europe UNTIL the numbers were sufficient. Now they are pressing for changes in laws to embrace Sharia Law. They are telling cops to stay out of their communities, they will police themselves their own ways.

Where were the Muslims at 9/11? Where is the Muslim outcry about the terrorist groups popping up in the US?

Where is the standing forth condemning Muslims killing Christians and other non-Muslims? Where is the condemnation of the PLO and them blowing up school buses?

Build bridges with a religion that demands I become Muslim or am inferior? That Islam must rule the world?

Nice trick, but cannot be done.

And the game playing of where I get my information. Actually, my info comes from formal historical evidence backed by archaelogy and sholarship.

How about telling me where YOUR information came from? Islamic clerics?

Islam believes Christ was not cruxified. With all the proofs out there, they still demand he was not.

How do you defend that in the light of historical facts?

Archaelogy, over the last 100 years, has not been kind to Islamic claims.

They have been forced to back off the claims Mohammed went to Jerusalem. And are now battling against overwhelming finds proving Christ was indeed cruxified and worshipped immediately after his death.

On an Islamic board I posted links to museums and archaelogical institutes that clearly showed the evidence.

The reply? I got called a liar, fool, they tried to explain away the evidence with accusations of fraud and threatened to ban me.

How do you discuss with people that do that? How do you build bridges when some of the issues are absolute lies?

I am a Christian. And I became one based on facts and evidences that justified my leap of faith.

Islam is built on lies. Lies that have clearly been revealed through hard evidence.

And it is a fact the Koran and such teach Islam must rule the world.

Where is there any common grounds to build bridges upon?

Are you willing to actually LOOK at evidence that denies Islam? Discuss it?

Go the link in my forum and address what is there. If you deal fact for fact with EVIDENCE, you will be treated politely and talked to fact for fact.

But, you will not go, read and test. Your mind is closed.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

I read the statements and responses from earlier members and would like to comment on it.

With all the comments from PTC Guy, I gather, you are an Ismaili. I also see some Christians with open minded social and tolerant attitude and some with very westwing non-believer attitude, aggressive war monger kind as well.

The idea here is not of explaining what Ismailism is, but the idea or question is the Ismaili Community Center, the place of prayer that Ismailis call Jamat Khana, that is being built in Fayette.

If America can offer better place than why one should live in a place that is less convenient. However, one has to be worthy of it and one should acquire it in legal and orderly fashion. Same is the case here about having a place of prayer.

Ismaili community is a peaceful community that lives ALL AROUND THE WORLD. There is no ONE place claimed to be OUR place for Ismailis. They are not political party, they are not social status, nor is it ratical muslim.

Ismailis do not ask anyone to convert to the religion unless one shows an interest on their own after learning and being around Ismailis. There is no Ismaili expansion organization or special missionary group to expand Ismailism.

Yes, you will find out with research that it was Aga Khan, the spiritual leader of Ismaili community, who was approached by the president of USA when 9-11 happened and when president wanted Muslim leaders to come together. It was Aga Khan and his community that went to Afghanistan as an NGO when no one wanted to be there. It was Aga Khan Foundation that actively worked when major earthquake struck in Asia. Aga Khan was the one who received Carnegi's award for Philonthropy. And why is it that University of Columbia and Brown University asks him to be the speaker at their graduation ceremony and why are the local organizations running to him for socio-economic work and advise. Why Bill Gate and other rich giants are not in the line.

This is all about community, not about so called "ISLAM" "CHRISTIANITY" or any other religion. There are thousands of Ismailis in USA, concentrations are in New York, Florida, Chicago, Texas, California, Washington, MA, and other east coast states. They are also in high concentration in Canada. Does not mean they are to take over. It is just that Ismailis are educated, peaceful, progressive and non-political community.

Why they are in Fayette, well, obviously this place is convenient, this place offers what Ismaili community is looking for to have a peaceful, social, respectful place. Are they taking over? Absolutely not. Are they trying to convert people to their community? Absolutely not. Are they threat to economy? Think otherwise. Each time Ismaili community moves into a neighborhood, the per capita income increase, educational levels increase, crime goes down, property values go up. IT IS A GOOD THING. You are being blessed. Don't go back to wash your faces in dirty water when the opportunity is knocking at your door. Answer the call and you will find it is only your friend at the door. Someone who believes in you, someone who cares for your community as much as who cares for themselves.

Lastly, don't fall into the war of what religion is right and who has the best prophet, or who has most population in the word or who is more strong to bring the others down. This is not politics, this is not war of the world, this is not about putting others down. It is simply making everyone better. Ismaili community is known for it and they will do GOOD regardless of your negative input or praise.

To all Ismaili's of Houston, I wish you all, good luck with new JamatKhana and wish you a peaceful, progressive and beneficial relocations.
YAM.

A person's beliefs are part of their sense of community. So please do not think most of us so naive we do not understand that reality.

If you are Islamic, there are certain fundamentals to being Islamic that must be present. Else you are, by definition an Islamic Cult.

By that I mean a group that attaches itself, in name, holy books, words and so on, to a World Religion, but redefines all those things into something that violates the core values and beliefs of that World Religion.

Christianity has thousands of cults. Some large and some small.

As well, Islam has a number of cults. Some large and some small.

If Islamic, your core values at at odds with American values. If not, stop calling yourself Islamic.

I have addressed core Islamic values. They are dangerous.

I find all this game playing about why coming here, what a value to community you are, and so on, deceptive.

We have seen what happened in Europe as Islamic communities went from small in number, and quiet, to large enough to feel they had a political voice.

That voice is not embracing the nations' values. It is trying to change the nations to Islamic. Or at least selected regioins thereof.

We see the Middle East and what life is like when Islam rules.

Those of us who are students of history see Islam in history. It is neither tolerant or freedom loving.

Finally, you evaded directly answering where the people of this sect for this area are now. Your post was a well oiled and SOP response.

But, you did answer the question to those who are familiar with semantical debates and answers.

The answer is they are not currently here. But when the mosque is built they will be moving in. Probably from overseas, I am guessing.

If you were such a benign group, you would not have such well practiced posters and so on waiting to do follow up immediately after the initial announcement.

This is very easy to see as well orchestrated by those with experience in these areas.

Those with anti-Christian agendas will probably be blinded to what is happening. Hopefully others will 'get it.'

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

For those who do not think he is with this group, his taking membership to post time was may 20 minutes.

This an orchestrated move in.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Learn to take peoople at their face value. Don't look for errors in people and certainly don't look for errors in God's work. If you sincerely believe that God has created all the religions, then don't question other's belief. That is why you need to be tolerant, so you can accept God's variation of different religion. May be there is a reason that he has created differences so mankind can have harmony.

History is made and written by people. People who interprete things according to their knowledge, believes, and political/social/economic gains. As much as you claim that Bible, Torah or any other religious books have been mended for their gain, Quran is also subject to its interpretation. That is why you have Aga Khan to interprete religion for you. Don't insult the core values of Islam and Ismailism.

If you want to write, write about the good, you Ismailis have done and what Agakhan has done for you, for your people, and for the world. Show the world that is happening in today's world and what Ismaili community as a whole and Aga Khan foundation as NGO has done and is doing. People need to know that, to believe in you and believe in good things that this Ismaili community is going to bring to this part of the world. Let people be the judge of this change. They have the right to know since they are afraid of Islam and they are afraid that you will be taking over their community, their faith, their freedom. Show them that you are trust worthy, show them that you believe in good and your mission is peace.

The rest will be a piece of cake. You know in your heart you are good. And good always prevail.

Learn to take peoople at their face value.

I do, until it is obvious the face is false.

Don't look for errors in people and certainly don't look for errors in God's work.

I never look for errors in God's work. But when it is obvious people are working in the name of a false god I am not going to pretend it is God's fault or relgion.

If you sincerely believe that God has created all the religions, then don't question other's belief.

Either you are not reading or it does not fit your desired SOP statements to address what I actually said.

God did not create all religions. He only created one. And Islam is not that religion.

That is why you need to be tolerant, so you can accept God's variation of different religion.

Islam is probably the most intolerant relgion on the face of the earth.

I embrace the rights of others to choice what they will believe. That does not mean I embrace what they believe.

May be there is a reason that he has created differences so mankind can have harmony.

God did not create different religions. He divided Man to keep his ego from getting so big Man deserts God. Which is what was stated regarding the Confusion of Tongues at Babel.

History is made and written by people.

True in part, but not in whole.

People who interprete things according to their knowledge, believes, and political/social/economic gains. As much as you claim that Bible, Torah or any other religious books have been mended for their gain, Quran is also subject to its interpretation. That is why you have Aga Khan to interprete religion for you. Don't insult the core values of Islam and Ismailism.

Bingo! Some truth finally trickles out.

Without your Aga Khan we are devoid of truth.

And how are we to know he is the oracle of God and truth? Because YOU said so! No facts, not evidence and no logic. Simply because YOU said so.

So, we now see the picture. All religions hold truth, but the truth is only revealed via YOUR Aga Khan.

He is not MY Aga Khan. But YOU and YOUR religion have assigned him as such whether I like it or not.

Yep. Be tolerant, come learn from YOU and then convert to YOUR form of Islam.

Again, a one way street, as I said before.

If you want to write, write about the good, you Ismailis have done and what Agakhan has done for you, for your people, and for the world.

So, you and your Khan are our benefactor and savior. Yep. I was wondering if you would let this out to others.

Show the world that is happening in today's world and what Ismaili community as a whole and Aga Khan foundation as NGO has done and is doing. People need to know that, to believe in you and believe in good things that this Ismaili community is going to bring to this part of the world. Let people be the judge of this change. They have the right to know since they are afraid of Islam and they are afraid that you will be taking over their community, their faith, their freedom. Show them that you are trust worthy, show them that you believe in good and your mission is peace.

Peace built around the domination of the your teaching under your form of Islam and your Khan.

I hope those who are listening see my points on core beliefs of Islam.

Here, instead of a conquering army of soldiers it is a conquering army of money, business and need to obey the Khan.

The rest will be a piece of cake. You know in your heart you are good. And good always prevail.

Bow to the Khan.

Wow. This sounds so much like the Biblical warnings about the Anti-Christ.

No, the Khan is not the AC, but he is in the vein thereof.

And what about this secret power player in your religion. The one not seen but a power beyond power?

And this is not a dangerous religion?

Immediately what comes to mind is comparisons with Moon and the Unification Church.

And still no answsers on where the people relocating for this community and mosque will be departing to come here.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Historical facts, religious beliefs and scientific findings have always created a cloudy mess. Perception of the person with the pen in hand at the time of transcription will always shape history in ways that may not be accurate.

Religion, no matter what denomination, sect, group, organization, 501c3 you subscribe to, must always be based on FAITH. Written text and historical interpritations are to be used as tools and guides. Some say that their texts are the words of their god. Your FAITH must allow you te believe that, knowing that ultimately a mortal human eventually wrote it down.

My FAITH has led me to believe that there is good and bad in all of us. My FAITH makes me beleive that I can not exclude anyone from a joyfull hereafter (I say Heaven) as long as they beleive in a higher power of good and strive to live life in a possitive manner. Call me naive.

What is so wrong with the possibilty of having someone trying to convert you. It should only bring about positives within your own religious beliefs. It will either strengthen the ones you have, or create new ones that you feel are better. Is that a problem. We have all been provided with the power to say NO.

Practice your religion. Preach your religion. Prophitise your religion. Educate yourself and others on your religion. When it comes to the religion of others, respect it. If you wish, learn about it. If you wish, disregard it. But do not belittle it.

That is all I have to say on this topic. I stand ready.

Poodles

Historical facts, religious beliefs and scientific findings have always created a cloudy mess. Perception of the person with the pen in hand at the time of transcription will always shape history in ways that may not be accurate.

The strengths of proof for Christianity heavily come from the enemies of Christianity.

The also come from archaelogical digs and finds. Which are what they are.

The rejection of the claims of Islam come from as well from archaeological digs. They are what they are.

And the come from history that Islam had rewritten and indoctrinated for centuries that now have some Islamics leaving Islam and others trying to deal with them within Islam.

Fact. Allah predates Mohammed in the Persian religions.

Fact. Mohammed never went to Jerusalem. A damning refutation to Mohammed's ascension.

Fact. Homammed did not begin as a monotheist. He was polytheistic to begin with.

And the list goes on and on.

So, yes, the victor dictates much of historical perspective.

But no, the Roman history writers were anything but friendly to Christianity when they laid out realities about Christ, Christianity and so on.

I embrace the scientific and scholastic methods of analysing documents and finds. And they testify to the Bible being true. But they rip the claims of Islam to shreds.

I do not pretend the Iquisition and Crusades did not happen. But they did not happen by the hands of Biblical Christians. They happened by the hands of Roman Catholicism.

And that is addressed in the Bible, in Revelations, to the fate of the powers of Rome.

Equally, how Muslims have treated Jews and Christians is historical fact. Coming on here and pretending those facts are not facts neigher seers truth or the reader.

Religion, no matter what denomination, sect, group, organization, 501c3 you subscribe to, must always be based on FAITH.

But it can be a knowing faith, with good reason to jump from facts to the faith issues. Or it can be faith for the sake of believing in what one wants to find.

Written text and historical interpritations are to be used as tools and guides. Some say that their texts are the words of their god. Your FAITH must allow you te believe that, knowing that ultimately a mortal human eventually wrote it down.

But the God of the Bible recognized this thinking and gave evidence to have reason to believe.

That does not exist in the other religions. It is faith alone, devoid of proofs.

My FAITH has led me to believe that there is good and bad in all of us. My FAITH makes me beleive that I can not exclude anyone from a joyfull hereafter (I say Heaven) as long as they beleive in a higher power of good and strive to live life in a possitive manner. Call me naive.

Yes. You are naive.

Your faith is faith in your desires and thinking. Not based on revelation from God.

Who are you to set the standards for entry into heaven? I mean that as thought proking, not accusatory.

What is so wrong with the possibilty of having someone trying to convert you.

I never said it was wrong. I said it was a hidden agenda, which is wrong.

It should only bring about positives within your own religious beliefs. It will either strengthen the ones you have, or create new ones that you feel are better. Is that a problem. We have all been provided with the power to say NO.

One should test all claims. One should know why it is wrong.

I have done both and know why Islam is a dangerous and harmful religion.

The key is testing against what God gives us. Not what makes you feel good, better or so on. Sometimes one must see the worst before the better can be revealed.

And yes, there is good and bad in us. The Bible says the beleiver is at war with themselves. Old Nature (flesh) versus New Nature (born-again spirit).

Practice your religion. Preach your religion. Prophitise your religion. Educate yourself and others on your religion. When it comes to the religion of others, respect it. If you wish, learn about it. If you wish, disregard it. But do not belittle it.

Respect the person, not the false religion. False means lies. Respect means to give it value.

If by belittle you mean say the truth about what it teaches, does and where the person involved ends up, then belittling it is needed.

The error is in many not being able to separate the believer from the belief. The believer cannot be changed. But their beliefs can.

There is value in the believer. But not all beliefs have good value.

I don't see any room for recognition of evil, lie and error in your statements. That is naive.

That is all I have to say on this topic. I stand ready.

Address the issues, not the poster. Many do not see the distinction.

It is ill thought out to believe there is one God in all religions. No, each religion presents a different god with different realities, expections, promises and so on.

Either there is one true God with the rest false, or, there is one very schizoid god who leaves us without hope.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Please read my comments I sent earlier today.
There is no point in hitting the dead with a hammer. You can not fight ignorance. Just by calling others bad and trying to put your point across for the same for winning is of no use.

Stick to the point. Ismaili Jamat Khana in Fayette. YES or NO. and WHY. There is no need for right or wrong of religion. If you want others to tolerate, then show them that you have higher tolerance and acception.

Like AgaKhan says, You, as Ismaili, are to be the embassedors of Islam. You be the one to show your best in your words and in your deads. People will learn. It will take time, but it will be well worth it. Respect religions and respect a person's believe. You have yours and they have their. If they like your behavior, if they like your ethics of faith, they will come to you and they will want to be part of your faith. You don't have to preach them, you don't have to sell them. That is God's work and He will do it in His own ways.

Yes, you would like this discussion to go silent.

You plead tolerance, learning and leading to gradual acceptance and conversion to your ways.

The problem is I see no avenue allowed for your people to tolerate, learn and gradually accept and convert to other religions.

It is a one way street!

Be Ambassadors. Ambassadors plead the case for whom they represent. Which in religion is conversion.

And tolerance. Already I am ignorant and dead because I do not agree with you. Dead, an interesting choice of words when it involves Islam.

Yep, it has meaning in Christianity as well, meaning spiritual death.

Yep, I understand showing by example. That is a Christian principle.

But, it is also a Christian principle to not put on false fronts and use stealth methods to enter the lives of others.

I won't get an answers, I am sure, but where will the people of your community be moving here from? And what country are you from, since your English writing style reflects a foreign flavor.

It is troubling you will not admit you are carving out a place to move a community into here. And that it is being financed by an international corporation.

Where are those of your sect moving from to be here? And why here?

That question is not getting answered. And that is a problem when the ones coming profess to be so open and community minded.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

The Fayette is not new to Ismaili community. Nor is greater Houston. Seem like you have difficulty understanding the answer. Ismailis have 3 major community centers in Houston. West side, Sugarland and another one. I am not from Houston so I don't have the exact places. However, there are about 20 thousand plus people from Ismaili community that reside in and around Houston. There are more community centers in Dallas, fortworth, San Antonio and some other major cities of Texas as well. Not all of them live in the same neighborhood and have to travel long distances to be at these centers for prayers and religious activities. Fayette being one of the places that is more central for some of these residents and therefore, they are trying to have this place for their community. They are not trying to get in your home. Why are you so hostile? Is this how you are brought up? Have you had a bad experience in your life regarding people of other religion, culture, color or otherwise? Why so much resistance? It is not like putting a liquor store next to your kid's school! Why such intolerance?

Answering to your question on my writing, english is an international language with different ways of writing. My english may sound little non-American since I was not raised here. But I am in this country for last 20+ years and being a US citizen, I find myself in perfect harmony with American culture.

Like I said in my last posting, try to take a person on its face value. Trying to find meaning in a sentance to find fault and find a way to interprete something that is not there is what takes our mind and our world into conflict. Simplicity is beauty. Say what you mean and believe in what you say. I have no hidden agenda. I say what I see and what I believe.

Instead of looking at the Ismaili community is so called ISLAM the Terrorist of the world, try to see Ismaili as who are they following and what do they do. Aga Khan is the spiritual leader of this community. Look up for his work for upliftment of this world. See his work in third world countries. Look up for his Aga Khan foundation and what work it is doing and what is done. And then look at your self and see where you find yourself. How much have you done for your people, for your community and for America. If you find yourself at a higher ground than that, I totally admire you. If not, then let people do good and clear their way. This is not a pep-talk. This is the truth that all religions have put forth. Yours and their. I hope I have answered your questions. If you still have issues, please feel free to write and I will address them in my most simple way as I can for everyones understanding.

The Fayette is not new to Ismaili community. Nor is greater Houston. Seem like you have difficulty understanding the answer. Ismailis have 3 major community centers in Houston. West side, Sugarland and another one. I am not from Houston so I don't have the exact places.

Sugarland is 20 miles southwest of Houston.

Now, what in blazes does the Houston area have to do with anything convenient in Fayette County, Georgia.

However, there are about 20 thousand plus people from Ismaili community that reside in and around Houston. There are more community centers in Dallas, fortworth, San Antonio and some other major cities of Texas as well.

Still absolutely nothing explaining Fayette County in this mix.

Not all of them live in the same neighborhood and have to travel long distances to be at these centers for prayers and religious activities. Fayette being one of the places that is more central for some of these residents and therefore, they are trying to have this place for their community.

This is ridiculous. If you have that many in the Houston area why are you not building there? Making 20,000 journey to Fayette is absurd!

They are not trying to get in your home. Why are you so hostile? Is this how you are brought up? Have you had a bad experience in your life regarding people of other religion, culture, color or otherwise? Why so much resistance? It is not like putting a liquor store next to your kid's school! Why such intolerance?

Why HERE?

There is more going on than meets the eye.

Fayette is in now way convenient to Houston. Houston is convenient to Houston.

What is not being said?

Answering to your question on my writing, english is an international language with different ways of writing. My english may sound little non-American since I was not raised here. But I am in this country for last 20+ years and being a US citizen, I find myself in perfect harmony with American culture.

No issue on being bi or more linqual. That is a good thing.

My point was that this is importing things to an area that has no basis for a mosque. And your explanations are making this all weirder by the moment.

Why Fayette? Convenience is most assuredly not an answer. What else is going on?

Like I said in my last posting, try to take a person on its face value. Trying to find meaning in a sentance to find fault and find a way to interprete something that is not there is what takes our mind and our world into conflict. Simplicity is beauty. Say what you mean and believe in what you say. I have no hidden agenda. I say what I see and what I believe.

Then why does it feel like pulling teeth to get answers? They are dribbling out so slowly.

And, this answer talking about Houston makes no sense.

Instead of looking at the Ismaili community is so called ISLAM the Terrorist of the world, try to see Ismaili as who are they following and what do they do. Aga Khan is the spiritual leader of this community. Look up for his work for upliftment of this world. See his work in third world countries. Look up for his Aga Khan foundation and what work it is doing and what is done. And then look at your self and see where you find yourself. How much have you done for your people, for your community and for America. If you find yourself at a higher ground than that, I totally admire you. If not, then let people do good and clear their way. This is not a pep-talk. This is the truth that all religions have put forth. Yours and their. I hope I have answered your questions. If you still have issues, please feel free to write and I will address them in my most simple way as I can for everyones understanding

Islam has certain core beliefs that define it as Islam. And those beliefs are against everything Biblical Christians, humanist and a list of others believe in.

You are claiming to be Islamic while trying to deny you believe in what are core Islamic beliefs.

You cannot have it both ways.

WHY Fayette? Houston is not convenient to Fayette. Fayette does not have the population of your belief here to warrant locating here. Fayette is not convenient to travel.

What is not being said. Where are these others that are not Houston that will be coming here. Why would build here and have 20,000 travel back and forth instead of building in Houston?

A 10,000 square' building will not accomodate 20,000 people. And there are suppose to more as well?

This does not add up. What is not being said about this mosque or the people who will be using it?

Are they going to contiue to live in Houston? Or are they moving here?

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

Atlanta has about 10 thousand Ismailis as well. Again, two major locations are in Norcross and one towards Downtown. You are in south. So are more Ismailis that have to travel north to go to the center. Now they will not have to travel that far. As far as invasion is concerned, you can call it invasion but this is simply expansion. The world is expanding, population is increasing and so people are moving to different grounds. Unfortunate for you that you are their first and now Ismailis are coming in your community and you are not in a position to stop them. You can show as much anger ans you want, but it does not change the tide. People are going to come and Atlanta is going to grow and all the rest of the suburbs are going to grow into one large living place. You will have your place to what you own and no one will throw you out, yet you will not be able to stop people to come into your neighborhood.

The bitter truth is - Tough luck. Shout as much as you want to, they are here and they are in your face. Do what you can and if you can not face it, it is time for you to move on. They have come with legal, and proper way as per American law and constitution. If you have something to prove otherwise do so, or shut up.

Laboy, somebody tried yesterday (I think it was the walking chicken)to explain that Ismaili Muslims are peaceful and community-oriented. But there is no use with PTC Guy. His obtuse view of the world makes him more jealous that a follower of Hillel. He's read a lot, no doubt, but with a prejudiced mind that brings everithing to support his conservative Fox News-like agenda. He doesn't practice what he preaches (see his posts in regards to immigration). He'll be surprised and dissapointed in Heaven to discover that millions are there, even those he now disqualifies.

I will attend the meetings at the mosque, I am not Muslim, I am a Christian, a Catholic (MOST PROBABLY PTC Guy WILL PUT OUT AN STATEMENT DECLARING CATHOLICS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS) and I will seek understanding and respect between our faiths. Do not be discouraged. not all of PTC abide by PTC Guy philosophy Though there are a few cats that do).

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Making you think twice.......

I think Fox has a good product. They have been good for news, as have CNN and others. Always good to have competition.

PTC Guy has come across in this thread as one of the most intolerable people you could ever want to meet. Makes me think of what we are fighting against for the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. He may not intend to sound this way, but to me that's the jist I get.

Trying to point out some basic truths on Islam is intolerant?

I am not intolerant. But I do know about Islam. And Islam is not in the slightest way compatible or friendly to your way of life, Dawg.

If you think Iraq or Afghanistan will ever, in the slighest way, resemble our society, you are in for a very big and suprising shock.

I would question ANY group coming in here in the manner they are coming in here.

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Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.