Thanks for the link.

I agree: civil conversation--without cynicism--is important here.

I wonder though: Did you take my post to be cynical? I didn't intend it as such.

Agree it is not easy. Agree it should be cynical.

But, it still reaches the bottom line that there are not many roads to God. So there will always be disagreement.

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

All of this sounds like the Church of my more-youthful years: that of Father Bing Crosby (AKA Father O'Malley of The Bells of St. Mary's or Going My Way) and Father Barry Fitzgerald (AKA Father Fitzgibbon), or Father Humphrey Bogart (really AKA Jim Carmody), or Father Spencer Tracy (AKA Father Flanagan of Boys Town), or Sister Ingrid Bergman (AKD Sister Mary Benedict in The Bells of St. Mary’s), or Father Frank Sinatra (AKA Father Paul in The Miracle of the Bells), or Father Charles Bickford (AKA Father Peyramale of The Song of Bernadette), or Father Donal Crisp (AKA Father Callahan and Ronald Reagan’s confessor in Knute Rockne All American, Reagan getting the Gipper for play George Gipp).

Now that was the Church for you and the Mass was still in Latin no less---well with those four short words of Greek too. Did you ever hear Latin in an Irish brought? Must have been the ways that Jesus wanted it, aren’t you for sure?

But best stop or I will be accused of rambling’ again, but that is what I guess I do, so “Know thee self.” I always say…by the way have you heard the one about the pessimist that smiled? Or, was it a realist? Oh well, I never did either---but I do smile, now don't you know?

Thank you.

Is this a church that does not believe in having musical instruments?

I don’t think your “thank you,” was for me, maybe? But just in case,yes. There was music in my church and instruments to accompany all the singing in Latin. Organs and maybe a horn or two and a cello if Paddy had not been too far into his cups the night before.

We were not big into pianos, but have them now, but I still have not heard a drum. However, we do have tambourines in their season.

Most Churchs of Christ (I can not say all because you never know) do not allow Musical Instruments in worship. Not to say that we weren't musical...we used to sing and play after church.

That would not be the Catholic Church Islewood is talking about.

Papal authority, tradiation and so on are superior to the Bible in Roman Doctrine.

Rome believes Catholicism created the Bible.

In fact, many are in the same boat you are. On the forum site in my profile there are members from all over the country, Canada, UK and so on who have the same frustration.

---------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

The Bible is considered a part of Tradition. And the Church does not think that it created the Bible, but thinks the Bible came from the Church and that the Church did not come from the Bible. There was no Bible in the upper room at God's institution of the Church.

There sprung, from that time in the upper room, the worldly root of what we call Christianity. All our ways and churches of today are only branches from it, even me Irish Catholic one.

If anyone likes to think their branch is the best shoot from the TRUE root, fine with you. They sit on a stout old tree for sure.

If you would like to know what I believe I could tell you, probably better than you can tell me what I believe. However, you are probably little interested in my faith and I am not much interested in what you say my faith is.

Since my faith is a journey, I probably don’t need you pointin’ me down some dead end. You can do that for yourself. However, if you like to think I am on a dead end, enjoy!

Further more, you will not likely understand my faith.
So best we each try to love and serve our God within our own udnerstanding.

that if I'm Muslim and my own understanding is to show my love for God by blowing you up into a million pieces that your otay with that?

I would be as OK with that, Get Reals, as you would be with a Christian whose own understanding is to show love for God by blowing you up into a million pieces. Now since you would be the one being blown up, if you are ok with it, who am I to say nope?

But of course, as you posed your question to me, it was “my (meaning your) own understanding” of doing violence in terms of showing God’s love.

Now if you (yourself) had that as your understanding, I don’t think you would be asking me. I think you would just be pulling the pin (we use to say when we were in the old aremy, "oh crap, pull the pin").

Now, in terms of possible mitigating circumstance that I might take into account post hoc, would you have yelled “Duck!”?

If not, you might still get yourself off the hook by calling the death and destruction that you have wrought to be a regrettable product of a "just war" and thus be able to view the remains as just some collateral damage.

But, if you wanted to really give your enemy some “shock and awe,” express no regrets, and threaten them with more of the same. Plus, talk about how happy you are with the way your war was going.

It probably sounds like I am looking for that "perfect" church. I hope not.

I've just grown tired of the shenanigans of the "contemporary church."

Why does this generation assume that it's not a good idea unless they thought of it first? There is value in holding on to a heritage. I would like to sing the same hymns that my grandfather sang. At least many (not all) of them were theologically informed, unlike the mantras that are repeated today accompanied by a stratocaster.

A number of solid Biblical Christians have noted knowledgable believers are dying off and not being replaced.

Today is loaded with Prosperity, Politically Correct, ecumenical and every other type of feel good and get thinking.

Actually wanting to know God for who he is and what he wants is no longer a priority for the majority.

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

You probably saw in the news that, since Christmas happened to fall on a Sunday this time, many of the megachurches around the country were closed on Sunday. It's a wonder we didn't hear, "Well, what do you know? EASTER happens to be on a Sunday this year, too! We think families should be together at home...."

Christian bookstores are misnamed. Christian "head shops" would be more like it. You are much more likely to find all of the necessary paraphernalia than you are a book of any substance. "Jesus Loves You" boxers; Adam and Eve thongs; lots of sappy music. (My objection to the contemporary church music is not that I dislike rock music. It is partly because I LOVE rock music--the REAL THING. And this stuff ain't it.) The few books they sell tend to be either baptized pop psychology and self help or worthless tripe like The Prayer of Jabez--which is all about self-aggrandizement.

The "seeker friendly" churches have a target market: Dockers-wearing baby boomers and Gen-Xers come of age who listen to soft rock and are accustomed to being entertained rather than either instructed or enjoined. This, of course, leaves out people like me who listen to the Grateful Dead, etc. Maybe there should be churches that target more specifically. How about "The Church of the Living Dead" where Christian lyrics are sung to the tunes of "Friend of the Devil" and "Sugar Magnolia"? Or "Whole Lotta Luv Community Church" where they sing "Stairway to Heaven" and the church band all look like glam rockers?

Theologian David Wells wrote a book titled NO PLACE FOR TRUTH, and it is a critique of the contemporary evangelical church. He argues that theology is no longer a part of the life of the church. The pastor was once recognized as a Bible scholar and theologian. But our culture values two other roles more: the manager and the therapist. So he is half CEO and half psychologist.

The gospel is marketed for its therapeutic value primarily. Come to Jesus and ye shall be whole--*psychologically* whole, that is. Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral) actually defines sin as whatever diminishes one's self esteem.

Our teens easily get the impression that faithful discipleship amounts to listening to Jars of Clay instead of Nine Inch Nails. (But then there are Christian bands that emulate NIN as well.)

I'm just tired of the whole circus.

Agree.

We have Categories, Forums and Sub-Forums on Cults, Dangerous
Doctrines and so on on Christian Talk Zone. It is loaded with many issues, preachers and such.

We have actually had a lot of people say they are not interested in depth, more than feel good fellowship and so on.

Our forums on in-depth studies are used only by a few. Others avoid that like a plague.

But go to some of the mega-forums that are ecumnical, PC and like that and they are very busy.

As we note, often, signs of the End Times.

I don't know of any serious Biblical Literalist that is not tired of the circus. You are not alone.

-----------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.

NO PLACE FOR TRUTH II

When I first glanced at this post, I assumed it was Islewood low on his medication.

Upon reading, I must declare--- good post.

I agree with the central tenet--- the Christian retail industry and, indeed, the churches themselves, are less into serving God then they are into making money. I truly believe that if Christ visited many of our Mega Churches, he would react the same way he did to the blasphemy in the temple.

Our megachurches are too focused on money. The altars are now designed to man-oriented rather than God centered. Worship is more about entertainment and putting on a funny show. Pulpits are no longer on the side; preachers are standing front and center on the altar. Choirs are not recessed to the side; they too are front and center. Churches do not center around the communities in need --- they market the communities with money. Tons of churchs in posh PTC but a scarce few in the poverty areas of Atlanta. Churches spend more on direct mail than they do on missions. They are all about big staffs, bigger salaries and more “ministers”, all rooting for paid jobs. OK, so ask yourself, "With the way my church is wasting money, I should tithe and fund all those needless jobs?" How about I give the money directly to the charities and cut out the middle man. The bookstores--- yes, that was funny calling them head shops—are all about commercializing Christ. Just like the plumber who puts scripture on the side of truck, like he is better than others.

Prove that you know Christ by the way you act, else you be like the “clinking of cymbals.” The Truth cannot be found in a megachurch, a retail bookstore or in a Google search of the internet. The Truth is not a thing; The Truth is not an idea; The Truth is a living spirit---- Jesus Christ.

I don't think there is such.

The two best churches I ever went to did not have fancy buildings, no robes, no collars, no symbols and one had a piano and one a guitar and the choir was the membership.

There was no formal doctrinal statements for membership except for acceptance of God, Christ, salvation by repentence throuh grace alone through faith and a profession of repentence. Everything was open to discussion and questions were encouraged.

Very Biblically literal and very caring.

If such exists around here, I don't know where it is.

But that was decades ago.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Keeping it real and to the core of the issue, not the peripherals.