So this subject has come back. Steve Brown and Council brought it up about a year ago. I asked at that time, in person and in several letters to the editor, for a reasonable approach to this issue. I asked that we sit down and figure out several things. How much does it cost Peachtree City taxpayers for EMS services? How much would it cost if EMS services were provided by Fayette County? What service level do we get from Peachtree City Fire and EMS? What would be the service level if EMS were provided by the County?

We still don’t have the answers to these questions. According to the newspaper quote, Judy Rutherford says that a County proposal “involved reducing the number of ambulances in Peachtree City from four to two.” I am not aware of any proposal that was made by Fayette County to Peachtree City. I question if this statement can be supported by any facts.

I’ll say again what I said last year, “I do not like something as important as Emergency Medical Services and taxes to be determined by opinions. They should be determined by facts.” So, I say again, let’s find out what the costs really are. Let’s determine what the levels of service really are. Let’s then determine the best course of action for the best service and at the best cost.

Fair enough?

Peter Pfeifer
County Commission

No disrespect Commissioner Pfeifer, This subject was brought up several years ago. As I recall, Mayor Lenox and council eventually filed suite against the county for this money. Then Steve Brown came to power and dropped the suite early in his term. Just as so many other things occured, Steve Brown later in his term "brought it up", as if "he" had this revelation that Peachtree City residents are basically being double taxed for the same service.
As far as "how much does EMS cost PTC taxpayers" - I know this has been brought up before, having all career firefighters cross-trained as Paramedics and EMT's they do both jobs. Budgetary wise, PTC has ONE person in the city's EMS budget (an EMS Lieutenant). EMS is being delivered in PTC by on-duty firefighters, operating the city's four ambulances. It Seems to cost vary little as it's utilizing on-duty firefighters.
Incidently, how much does EMS cost all county residents? How many cross trained firefighter Paramedics and EMT's are in the County EMS budget, whats that, something like 36, vs. PTC's ONE. Both agencies provide four ambulances, are cross-trained to provide both fire and EMS. Seems almost like the county is hiding firefighters in the EMS budget (from the county general fund), paid for in part by PTC residents. This county EMS budget, is over and above the county fire tax which provides for the County Fire Department. The county fire tax, that's what, something like a half a percent less than Peachtree City's entire millage rate (the entire city operating budget).
With just some of these comparisons, I'm thinking, without even having the actual figure's / costs, Peachtree City sounds like the most cost effective EMS and Fire provider.

Commissioner Pfeifer,

Who do YOU expect to do this? As a County Commissioner, can YOU not get YOUR hands on the data? If not, why? Is it because it doesn't paint the picture that the county wants it to be?

YOU are good at throwing accusations and semi-literate responses to accusations against YOU. I await YOUR response on why YOU cannot provide the information, or why YOU cannot get the information. Why should the city or anyone else have to provide data that YOU will simply try to shoot holes into since it doesn't represent what YOU want it to.

Who do I hold accountable for my county tax dollars? YOU. YOU provide me the information on why I should be taxed double on the EMS services. YOU provide me with why the county felt it was alright to set aside a special tax district for fire, but not for EMS. Once YOU provide me that information, I will make a choice that will be heard at the polls.

In the meantime, quit asking someone else to do YOUR work.

Fair enough?

Dana Kinser

Dana;

Thinking it over, perhaps I could should have been a little more clear in my last note to you. It is harder to understand or follow if you are not involved.

I, as a County Commissioner, can attempt to convice a majority of the Commission to support requesting that our staff (the experts) explore or do certain things.

I have no power, as a County Commissioner, to request that any Staff person who works for Peachtree City do anything. I can try to persuade members of the City Council to do what I think is the right thing.

Frankly, it would not require any added persuasion to get a majority of the County Commissioners to support his as they already have supported it.

In the past, we simply were not able to get any cooperation from the Mayor and Council. That’s one reason why the incumbents were not re-elected. I hope that’s a difference with the current Mayor and Council, and that we are able to get at least 3 votes (a majority) to take an honest look at this issue.

Until we have the cooperation of Peachtree City, we are stuck. Unless they are convinced by looking at the facts (or by you), to move ahead on this, unfortunately, it can’t go anywhere. This isn’t something that can be done unilaterally by any party.

If it could, the County Commission would have done it already.

Thanks. Peter

It's pretty clear Dana. The COUNTY stands ready to do this. The CITY has, thus far, refused to sit down and have a meaningful discussion, producing accurate information and data. Dana, it may surprise you but I do not claim to personally be an expert on the subject of EMS costs and standards. I do, however, know people who do! They are employed by Fayette County. Once the experts do the ground work, then the elected officials have the information they need to make the decisions that are THEIR work. You have addressed your comments to the wrong party. Try addressing them to your Peachtree City elected officials. Regards. Peter

Mr. Pfeifer,

The city has provided data that the county refuted. So, has the county provided like data?

I don't expect you to be an expert in EMS, but I do expect you to be able to direct the appropriate county entity to provide the necessary data and I would expect that same entity to be able to review the data that the city provided to allow you to make a decision. As an elected official, I expect nothing less.

My issue is that the city has provided data that the county, including you; have questioned. Let's see your side of it, but then it is too easy to shoot holes in someone elses work while you sit idly by and do nothing.

As for addressing it to Peachtree City elected officials, I believe that the voters are taking care of business this year. With attitudes like yours, I would expect changes at the county level too. You seem content to allow your constituents to be double taxed and offer nothing to defend it. I realize your not up for re-election, but your cohorts are and I sincerely hope they decide to start working for the constituents and not their own egos.

Dana Kinser

Dana,

The county data is readily available on the website. There is no need for it to be provided to PTC, it is a matter of public record.
By contrast PTC would have you believe that, due to cross training of firefighters as EMT's then EMS is free. There are separate skills for these two roles. These fine men and women do not simultaneously fight fires and provide EMT services. They do one or the other, even when they are treating an injured person at a fire scene. So they are separate, and they should be identified as separate so the true cost of the services can be determined and compared.
It is clear that you are unwilling to accept the fact that the EMS tax, for the benefit of all county citizens, is a double tax. I actually agree. Realize that it was the decision of PTC to provide these fire and EMT services years ago. The double tax is because you are paying for services that the county could provide as cost effectively. At some point in the past, your city leaders decided that they must have their own fire and EMS service. They could afford it because they always had new developer money coming in. Now that the cash cow has died, they cannot afford to provide their citizens with this duplication of service, so they want to pretend that they do not avail themselves of the county services. You and I both know that this is far from the case. Someone here noted that PTC had rendered mutual aid about 40 times last year. That is great, but would suspect that the county reciprocated as many times and more. You see they view PTC residents as county residents, whereas PTC wants to be considered part of the county when there are funds to be distributed, and taxes to be collected. Otherwise you would prefer to be considered some kind of island.

The double tax that you are so worried about is from the intentional duplication of services by PTC. The county provides these services to everyone in the county because that is there mandate.

I am not sure what you mean by the two commissioners who are up for reelection working on their egos. Dunn and Wells are among the most vigilent of all public officials in trying to maintain the quality of life that the people in this county have grown to expect. They do not bow to the developers, they do not trash the land use plan and they have a long track record for doing what is best for the entire county, not special interests.

The more I look at your Blog, the more it becomes evident your obviously not intheknow. Your statement "The double tax that you are so worried about is from the intentional duplication of services by PTC. The county provides these services to everyone in the county because that is there mandate"
1) Peachtree City DIDN'T duplicate anything, as Peachtree City was the EMS provider in AND around (in the county) LONG BEFORE there ever was a Fayette County Emergency Services
2) Peachtree City has a MANDATE from the State of Georgia DHR to provide EMS in the city. This in the form of a license to do so, issued again LONG BEFORE there ever was a Fayette County Emergency Services
Your information is so full of holes, you could almost drive an ambulance through it. I mandate you to do your homework, ask questions of officials on both sides of the fence and get the real story before your next posting. I know that Peachtree City officials have tons of data with goals of providing the highest level of service to our residents, in the most cost effective manner.

I suppose I should know better by now. It’s my unending optimism that often leads me astray.
Dana, I’m not going to handle this like it’s an argument with you. I was simply attempting to explain the current situation with EMS. But, I don’t know if you comment the way that you do because you don’t get it or because you don’t wish anyone to work together on this issue.
Putting together the correct answer to the EMS question is not a matter like a game. “you go first, then we’ll shoot at you, then we’ll go and you shoot at us, then you go …” . If there is not a collaborative effort to find out the real answers, there will never be a correct answer.
What I’ve attempted to say to you, but perhaps you don’t want to hear or are too angry about something to hear, is that the Commission was willing to proceed to work with Peachtree City towards real answers. The City Council has thus far not agreed to do that.
Perhaps the renewed interest of the Council on this subject will be able to generate an agreement to find out the answers to our best course of action. I hope so.
And, even though I know better, I will add this for the benefit of some of the others who are writing. Fayette County EMS was established and licensed in 1973. And, I’m not going to argue back and forth about this with you either.
And, last, I (finally) found the first reference to reducing the number of PTC ambulances to two. It was in the study, paid for by Peachtree City, from January 2004 by ESCi.
Sincerely, Peter Pfeifer

Mr. Pfeifer,

I do not want to argue with you. Constructive dialogue is the far better way of going forward, but I do recall the City putting data before your commission. Your commission summarily rejected it as flawed or slanted towards the city's side.

My request from you and the county is simple, put your data before the city. Why should it be one sided, meaning; why should the city have to come before you again with the same information so that it can be shot down again?

Personally, I feel that both the city and the county EMS can provide an equal service. Based upon that, I don't feel as though Peachtree City residents should be paying twice for the same service. I seem to recall that a previous Governor pushed through a law requiring a reduction or elimination in redundant services. Since Peachtree City can, and does; provide an equal service to the county EMS, why should I pay twice?

The stance, as I see it from the county; is that Peachtree City's service does not equal ours, so we will continue to tax them. That simply isn't fair and isn't right.

I am not a senior citizen, but one day God willing; will be. Should those seniors whose fixed income is limited, be paying twice for the same service? Couldn't their money go towards more meaningful items such as prescriptions or even food?

But that is just one portion of our city's population. Nobody should be taxed twice for the same service. I seem to recall the Republican Party was all against inheritance taxes because those recipients are taxed twice. How is the County and Peachtree City's EMS any different? This county is heavily Republican, for which I am grateful, but why does this case of double taxation slip by the county's Republican party?

And in closing Mr. Pfeifer, I do enjoy meaningful dialogue. Please don't feel that my mind is closed to your ideas or input. I listen to as many parties as I can and make my decisions based upon what facts I can garner and life experiences I have. If you can put forth a convincing argument on why I should pay twice, I will grin and bear it. I just want to hear the argument.

Dana Kinser

Hey "thenatural", just for the record:
1) First, Peachtree City had EMS prior to "Fayette County Emergency Services" ever even being formed
2) Your statement "your city leaders decided that they must have their own fire and EMS service. They could afford it because they always had new developer money coming in" is as flawed as most of what you post. Developer money for what - Peachtree City EMS started as a volunteer organization, staffed by unpaid volunteers. I also believe the original ambulance and equipment came through some type of grant - what developer money do you speak of. That service originally protected the entire west half of the county as well. The other original ambulance in the county being in Fayetteville, with it's coverage area the east half of the county.
2) A past proposal would reduce the number of ambulances in the city by half, if Fayette took over EMS (from 4 to 2), ultimately reducing the number of ambulances available in the entire county. Such a proposal might appear cost effective, but would require the county to hire at least 12 additional personnel (4 personnel for three shifts - what's that amount to in salary and benefits, about $600K +) and the end result would again be less Medic units available for the whole county. This would result in a reduced standard of care for Peachtree City residents, and ultimately the county. With this writing, I'll also note that Fayette County had to rely on a Peachtree City ambulance again last night, second time in three days. Peachtree City responded to the north end of the county mutaul aid to transport someone to the hospital.
3) While mutual aid is in fact reciprocated, Fayette County responded to Peachtree City's aid about a half dozen times last year. Your way off base with the number of times mutual aid was reciprocated in the last year (off base, like many of your statements)
Oh, and thenatural, I question, who would be responsible to pay the $600,000 in manpower costs to put a couple of county run ambulances in Peachtree City. I myself being a Peachtree City resident and taxpayer wouldn't be happy knowing I was paying MORE, only to receive LESS in a reduced level of care (two instead of four available ambulances)

thenatural,
Thought I'd keep you updated, a Peachtree City Medic unit is in Tyrone right at this time, Mutual Aid, assisting Fayette County with an accident. County had no units avialable. The third such request in the last four days. I can't remember the last request by Peachtree City for County mutual aid, it might have been several months. These three requests in four days by one department, are just a small time capsule of "recipricle responses" between agencies.
Also it could have been the second such response today (actually 4th in 4 days), as Fayette County made a similar request about an hour ago. Having shopped by radio for the availability of any of their units, Fayette County eventually cancelled the Peachtree City ambulance that was enroute to that call at the Pavillion.
I might point out, this cancelled response by Peachtree City units into the county for mutual aid, that sometimes get cancelled (often when PTC units are well into the county) may not always or even ever be counted by some whom count the beans. This does tend to cover up part of the overall picture of responses and frequency.

Dana, I could not have said it better myself. Mr. Pfeifer you represent me as a county commissioner and here you have citizens asking for fair representation and tax accountablilty. Your in the position to get the info. When is electon time?

Nice point...let's consider that the County Commissioners perhaps aren't really thinking about the equitable, best interests of the County!

Peachtree City - largest single municipality, largest incorporated land area...and they get billed twice for EMS. I wonder how much longer the citizens will let the wool get pulled over their eyes and get the incumbents out!

Change is a-coming.....

When a Fayette county resident who lives in the unincorporated area buys a $25,000 car, he pays $500 (2%) in local sales tax. Half of that $500 is given to the cities, like Peachtree City, for the benefit of its residents. The other half ($250) is spread among ALL the citizens of Fayette county by the county commissioners. Since roughly half the Fayette residents live in cities, that gives city residents another $125. The net result is that city folks get $375, and unincorporated county residents get $125.

When a Peachtree City resident buys a $25,000 car, he pays $500 (2%) in local sales tax. Do the math, and you'll see that $375 goes back to city residents, and $125 to unincorporated county residents.

So, when two cars get bought, one by a PTC resident and the other by an unincorporated resident, the $1000 in local sales tax gets split $750 to the city residents and $250 to the unincorporated county residents. The population is split 50-50, but the tax is split 75-25 in favor of city residents.

In light of that, it is ludicrous to complain the county commissioners cheat city residents. In fact, it is the reverse. (Most commissioners live in cities.)

As for the EMS and their ambulance duties, one might observe that ambulance operators send a bill to the patient afterwards. So they get paid. Quite often they compete for business. If one looks at the expense and casts a blind eye on the revenue, EMS looks like a much bigger expense than it really is. The same is true with police operations when one does not look at the revenue generated by traffic and other fines and so-called court costs.

People who complain about how their taxes might go up because fire department operations are improved make the same kind of mistake. They forget to consider how their fire insurance premiums might go down. These two items, fire protection tax and fire insurance premiums, go together. The fire protection tax has the benefit of being deductible on income tax returns.

Sorry to burst your bubble, eye, but your facts are way screwed up.

One of the two percentage sales taxes collected in Fayette County is an L.O.S.T., local option sales tax, which has been in place for years, and is shared by the county and cities, roughly, on a population ratio. I think the county gets about 50% and the other one half is divided among the cities on the basis of population.

The other one percent is an S.L.O.S.T., special local option sales tax, levied for a duration of not more than 5 years, for
infrastructure and capital improvements. It too is shared by the
county and cities, but not on a basis of population.

You don't make much of a case for PTC cheating the citizens of the county with your argument.

The L.O.S.T., discussed in the second paragraph above, is credited on your local property tax bill each year, at least mine is, so there is an offset there.

I doubt that you make a case for PTC cheating the other citizens of the county with your facts.

Confuse the mark (victim). That’s how you do it.

Using a word that can have two meanings is an excellent way to do it.

Take the word “county” for instance. If you talk about county residents, are you talking about all 102,000 county residents, or just the 51,000 people (or so) who live outside the cities “in the county”?

When $12 million of annual local sales tax is given back to the 51,000 city residents, and the remaining $12 million is given back to the 102,000 county residents, the result is 51,000 city residents getting back $18 million, and 51,000 non-city residents getting back $6 million.

The problem here, of course, is that all 102,000 residents contributed pretty much equally to the total sales tax. But the city folks who contributed 50% get back 75%, and the country (with an “r”) folks who contributed 50% get back 25%. The country folks get scammed by $6 million a year ($118 per person or $350 per family).

Distract the mark. That’s another tool scammers use.

It does not matter whether it’s with LOST, SPLOST or EMS subsidies that PTC folks want to cheat their country cousins. They are doing it on a large scale already, and the country cousins aren’t all country bumpkins.

It seems to me that Harold meeting with Dunn " to no avail" is because there is no rationale for doing what PTC wants done.

This one is fairly simply SS. The county is obligated to provide EMS services to all county residents, and they do. Peachtree City has opted to provide EMS services in addition to those that the county offers for its' residents. As a resident of Fayette County you pay your EMS tax for county services just like everybody else. The tax you pay to PTC is for the additional services that PTC decided to add some years ago. The county tax insures that, should you need EMS service in the county (ie auto accident on 74, medical emergency while visiting friends in Tyrone, etc.) they have the resources available to provide you with this potentially life saving help. Since PTC EMS does not go into the county to render aid, even to its' residents unless specifically asked to do so, you pay for that additional level of service. That is a choice.

This is different than the fire tax district because unlike you and your fellow PTC residents, your house is not likely to leave the confines of PTC, so the county does not have to provide that kind of support for fire. To me it is logical to have the county cover it all. It would eliminate duplication of services and insure that the same level of service is available to everyone regardless of location.

"Since PTC EMS does not go into the county to render aid"

Once again "thenatural", you give me something to write about. Actually, a little over an hour ago, a Peachtree City ambulance responded into the county. Yes, a COMMON occurance, I believe to the tune of somewhere around 40 - 60 times last year alone (don't have those figures with me right now). Sure, Fayette county responded into Peachtree City about a half dozen times last year as well, something called "mutual aid", assisting each other when called upon.
Sure, lets have Fayette County take over Peachtree City EMS. First we'll go with thier previous proposal to cut the number of ambulances in PTC by half (two Fayette County Units). Of course, you might be the first to complain if the total number of ambulances in the entire county is cut from eight to six, and you can't get one when you need one at your home. Oh, by the way, Fayette County needs to staff those two units in PTC - where doe's that money come from? Probably could have just better staffed Peachtree City Fire and Rescue with those tax dollars.
Oh yea, almost forgot, you somehow equated cutting the number of ambulances (Peachtree City and ultimately in Fayette County) with the previously proposed Fayette County EMS takeover and somehow achieving the "same level of service", all in the same paragraph. Another one of those math issues I assume as Highgreen109 was having with the number of firefighters in the other blog today.

I may be mistaken, but based upon your assumption; the same should apply to fire and police. As I recall, this isn't the case. The county allowed the creation of special tax districts that allowed Peachtree City to provide its own police and fire protection services without the city residents paying double taxes.

What Peachtree City has been asking is why can't they do the same with EMS?

From where I sit, I can't understand that either. If the county was OK with the police and fire, which should be far more expensive to operate than the EMS; then why can't they allow the same for EMS?

Dana Kinser

There is no tax district for police. The difference between fire and EMS is very simple. If you HOUSE ever left the city limits PTC and then caught on fire, then the same would apply. You should pay for fire protection from the county and PTC just in case you house caught fire going down Hwy 54 toward Fayetteville.
There is no record of this ever happening, but there have been many instances over the years of PTC residents needing county EMS while outside the city limits of PTC. So PTC residents pay county tax too,...its like insurance. You may never need it, but you sure are glad you paid for it when you do.

"but there have been many instances over the years of PTC residents needing county EMS while outside the city limits of PTC. So PTC residents pay county tax too,...its like insurance. You may never need it, but you sure are glad you paid for it when you do."

Is it just me, or is this statement by "thenatural" just NUTS - I better start paying taxes in the many cities and counties I travel to or through!

Ignorance is bliss - you must be ecstatic

intheknow you better start paying all those taxes what is wrong with you! Just kidding it is not you, the statement IS NUTS. I am glad you brought this up as I was going to ignore it, but now I have to comment. So picture this you are in a car accident on I-75 south heading to Florida, "thenatural" (now do not take this personal) is suggesting that the EMS check the address on your drivers license before responding if you live in the county your accident is in they respond? I have never heard of that, first time for everything I guess.