Yeah that is what people like you said about FDR and his methods of bringung the USA back from starving disaster!

I was there!

then stepped right into it..

His 4 terms in office did more to damage the framework of America then any other President in history. After him the 22nd Amendment was ratified to make sure someone like him would never have more than 2 terms.

FDR ran his campaign on HOPE, CHANGE and BLAME.. Sounds like something we have heard recently ?

He created 34 "EMERGENCY" measures from t he "Emergency Banking Act" to the REVENUE Act"

FDR prolonged the Depression with his "BIG" Government solutions.. He created a whole Bastion of new Federal programs and signed at least 15 major pieces of legislation into law all in his first 100 days.

We thought Obama was pushing us hard..

He also tried to create a "Second Bill of Rights"

and his worst sin of all.. He took us off the Gold Standard which virtually assured us that the debt we see today would be possible.

The Government could own Gold but under FDR an Individual could not.

He also believed in the RIGHT to be GIVEN a HOME.. How did that work out for DODD and FRANKS?

I could go on and on .. on FDR.. Suffice it to say he was not a good influence on America.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Even before Roosevelt was sworn in:
ALL banks had been closed--no one could get their money or write a check.
25% were unemployed. With no unemployment compensation Insurance for them.
Farm prices were reduced 50%--remember 90% worked on a farm then.
Tere had been thousands of foreclosures (bought by wealthy people).
There were few labor unions for grunge workers or kids.
There was no Social Security for old folks.
The FDIC guarantees of one's bank money wasn't in existence.
There was no TVA--most of Appalachia had washed into the Miss. Delta.

Republicans had elected to allow the economy to "work." Above is what that got them.

Yes, housing was made affordable for most working people. Banks went to the extreme, lending to everyone with a government guarantee (taxes) to fall back on.

WW2 made it OK and necessary to get rid of most of the programs for workers--the Supreme Court ruled some of the worker programs unconstitutional since the Army and war effort put most to work and the programs were no longer necessary.

It is amazing how that old failed philosophy still endures.

of the cost of leaving our current health care program as it is. The escalating cost will 'bankrupt' America. Something (reform) has to be done!

hit the nail on the head award.

The escalating cost will 'bankrupt' America.

Your prize is a year's free subscription to "The C" delivered weekly to your driveway.

Now I have a question; if we can't afford the health care we have right now, how are we going to afford another one that's going to cost even more money?

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

The 'health care' we have now does not encourage early screening; preventative education; reasonable cost for prescribed drugs; allowance for pre-conditions; a regulated insurance industry. As insurance companies spend money 'feigning' lower premiums, etc., clients of these companies are receiving announcements that their premiums will cost more next year. Those hospitals that have already joined the digital age are already exhibiting better customer service and communication regarding clients’ health records. Just because we have paid more does not mean that paying less will diminish service. "Work smarter, not harder" - makes sense to me. Especially if the working smarter will stop the escalating health care costs. You're right, change will cost money - but this cost will not be as much in the future if we stay with the present practice and allow the escalating cost to continue.

I am so sick of the excuse and buzz-line of “SMARTER” while our society is being dumbed down. It is an insult to the giants of capitalism and industrialism that allow you without a thought to flip a switch, eat fresh veggies year round and get rid of your waste with the flip of a handle. SMARTER, talk about a placebo for the masses. It's everywhere, just flip on the tube and count the number of times some snide youth "problem solves" by just being smarter. We are all being lulled to believe that we can solve all of our problems by just being smarter. Bunk. It is a catch all phrase that means you don’t really know, you just have faith that your superiors in Washington have a plan and will take care of it. It is a cop out answer and befitting of one who follows the current administration, ARROGANT. Does David dig getting talked down to by his mom, because the adults out here don’t.

I guess you haven’t gotten the memo about rationing of healthcare which the dems are now spinning as a cost saving measure. The problem isn’t that we aren’t doing enough testing, just the opposite, we are doing too much. This is one of the factors driving costs up. Our health care professionals are blackmailed into testing our brains out in order to make a paper trail to CYA for the attorneys. Tort reform, which is nowhere in anything on capitol hill right now, is part of the answer, not just being “smarter”.

The American people are not 'dumb' by any means. We have been at the forefront of major change in this world in all areas of human progress. I prefer to 'flip' a switch for light rather than rub stones together. I think the current interest in Washington proves that Americans are not asleep and allowing 'superiors' in Washington make decisions. You and others are letting terms like 'rationing'; death panels' etc. cloud your natural inclination to investigate for yourselves. All this talk about cost is dependent on 'speculation'. If we have major catastrophes, our budget picture will change. Our economists are estimating cost - as they always do. Using technology and energy based on newfound scientific discoveries is 'smarter' than holding on to the old because we are more comfortable with the 'known and proven'. The too-much testing may be handled with the improved record keeping using digital technology. Doctors will have information needed to continue treatment within minutes rather than waiting days to get a patients health record. I'm told that 'testing' rather than 'waiting' for information has been beneficial. David is grown, a father - and we have spirited, respectful conversations. (and I respect his opinions - neither of us being considered arrogant by the other)

.

but, having the "Guv" legislate it is another manner.

Now about this screening and wellness checks that is offered in the Senate proposal and that you mentioned; if a person fails to take advantage of being "smart" and is not getting those regular check ups and shows-up with something preventable with is now a pre-existing condition should that person be declined coverage?

Now about the drug thingy; what is reasonable? How does the "Guv" define this or better yet, what central committee plans what the production, cost, and ultimately, the salaries of the drug workers should be?

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Good questions - and I hope that our representatives are considering those questions. It is my understanding that not only the Guv will be making these decisions - but also the health care industry. From my understanding, the representatives of the health care industry have been involved.

Good questions - and I hope that our representatives are considering those questions.

Ms. David's Mom will get back to you on this as soon as Obama and the DNC tells her what to say next. No matter what newsfeeds this nice lady absorbs in her thought processes, it seems she never questions the effectiveness or practicality of what she is told. She just "understands" her master's views are now hers.

My resources far exceed the DNC,GOP, Obama's administration, Fox News, Rush, Heck, and the others. Sometimes one just has to do their own research, ask questions of different sources - and use a little common sense. Cyclist is an intelligent, resourceful person - and his questions are good. Do you have the answers? Please share.

Please stop! You're making my head swell. And as my good buddy down the street - S. Lindsey - can attest too, I have a big enough head and with very little hair.

Anyways, I suspect that there's enough inertia to pass some sort of health care plan. It will, most likely, be something neither you nor I will like. Oh well, that's government for ya.

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

are swinging upward just as sharply.. But you don't hear people complaining about that do you? They still go to Ball Games and Movies..

Slowing down and studying this major change in our lives is not a bad thing..

If Obama can contemplate his decision on troops in Afghanistan while our Troops are dying.. We surely can do no less
..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

The ratio of citizens dying at recreation activities and lack of health care is the question. Right? It doesn't take an acknowledgment of source to determine that far less people 'die' at a recreation activity than die because they could not afford preventative screening/medicine. Health care and the cost of adequate health care is the concern. The cost has gotten out of hand. The desire to make this an 'Obama' win or loss is political - and does not have the bottom line concern - affordable health care for American citizens. Obama and his administration have laid the problem at the feet of the Congress (our representatives) to improve our health care delivery. IT'S THEIR JOB TO DO IT! (regardless of who sits in the White House).

DM several times you have alluded to people dying because they have no access to Healthcare.. I have asked you to site your source.. To please provide the data.. Until you do these are just talking points and scare tactics.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

See my post.

In order to be informed - we need to be able to discern the facts.

Check here

Both sides have been guilty of misrepresenting. Let's stay informed.

GUARDIAN - a large insurance company - just apologized for 'making a mistake' in denying a health insurance request - AFTER IT WAS PUBLICIZED IN THE MEDIA!

http://vodpod.com/watch/2385128-video-seven-families-stand-up-to-the-health-insurance-lobby?mp=1&pod=progressohio

THANKS SUGGARFOOT!

companies! Some are hysterical and some are really sad, but all point to we need healthcare reform.

http://healthcareforamericanow.org/site/video/

It's one thing to 'read' about the reality of insurance - quite another when you see these ads. WE NEED REFORM!! No one in America should die because of lack of health care. No one should lose their home because of lack of health care insurance. We are too rich a nation for this foolishness. These guys and gals in Congress need to forget the politics - and do their job to help the citizens of this country!

"No one in America should die because of lack of health care."

How many have died because of no access to healthcare?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

SOURCES

Without adequate knowledge regarding and using preventative practices regarding our healthcare, nothing will change. Change will cost - but will be less than the cost of allowing our present practices to continue. This is my opinion based on the compilation of the research that is found in the above document.

Without preventative education, people will continue to 'die' because of lack of adequate preventative health care.

Your "SOURCE" is a old June 2008 "fact" sheet giving points we have already heard.. Most of which have been proved to be false or otherwise incorrect or exagerated..No where does it provide data, actual studies and most importantly.. DATA on PEOPLE DYING BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE..

I can state the EARTH is round you can state the EARTH is flat..

I can provide data from NASA to prove the EARTH is round.. you link to a page where a group said it is flat but provides no data..

Whose "facts" have more weight?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

45,000 die in the US each year, or on every 12 minutes because they don't have health insurance.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE58G6W520090917

"The Harvard researchers looked at about 9,000 health surveys, in which about only 350 of the respondents had died. That’s a small sample from which to extrapolate 45,000 dead people a year, so it comes with a whopping margin of error."

A little fact checking please

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Well 42,000 die in traffic accidents just about every year and I don't see Princess Pelosi or Jester Reid insisting that an additional $1 trillion dollars are spent fixing that. Or is it just more politically acceptable to turn a blind eye on traffic deaths?
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Cyclist - you travel - and I assume you're aware of the many mandated 'speed' limits that have been imposed on truckers, etc. That has been an expensive mandate for the trucking industry. I have no idea how many accidents have been prevented. I don't think a 'blind' eye has been turned to traffic accidents - but I understand your point.

Funded by Federal dollars, where the first question you have to ask is "How do I get more Federal Research Dollars>" Study questioned because they omitted info on how long people had been without insurance and why. Absence of insurance does not mean absence of available medical care. When funds are short all citizens make decisions about how to send them. Those decisions often carry risks. Wow, what a concept! That's freedom folks, make your own decisions and accept the responsibility! If you want a Nanny State to make all those decisions for you, just sit back and relax. Oh, by the way, the Coroner will be rigt over.

time I read the Citizen. You guys insist present health care is so damm good, that any research by Harvard is a commie deal or paid for by someone that wants to destroy the American people. Never mind that the health care industry is spending..MILLIONS... to defeat this because they don't want...any...competition...They have made the rules so long, it has been an absolute gravy train.

I don't know how many of you make your living either selling health insurance or work as a doctor, nurse, or Indian chief,or for that matter, how many of you might even get paid...just like lobbyist, to spew your garbage, and in truth I don't care.

How will the public option put insurance companies out of business?
The government and private insurance exist side by side in Britain, Australia and New Zealand.
France has both private and public health care, so does Ireland.
We have public schools and private schools. Private schools still thrive despite the public alternative.
We have police protection and private security firms.
I am confused. If government is always wrong, and private, overpriced fat cat insurance companies with their 25 million plus a year CEOs is always better, then won't everyone stay with the private system and the public option will just go away?

You really protest too much...and I don't give a SHIT!!! cause I ain't coming back..a few low IQ bullies have hogged this board till no one comes back...S Lindsey sits there telling everyone what a good debater he is and then insults everyone that says anything...if you go look at where he gets his 'facts' ...they aren't real...too many of you are sheep...and please line up for Lindsey to lead your stupid asses to the slaughter!

There is so much BS on here from people who try to make it sound like the health insurance industry makes more money than a Mexican drug cartel, George Soros and Bill Gates, and the entire Chinese economy combined. Let's see what FactCheck has to say:

Health Insurance Profits

There are also the facts about the Dems latest attempt to scare seniors(as usual) into thinking the Repubs want to see them all die destitute, the Repubs lying about Medicare(as usual), tort reform actually in fact saving money(that's new), etc. No matter your political leanings, if you have an open mind, FactCheck delivers and shows the almost complete dishonesty of our fine political leadership and their mindless followers.

We have Aetna Open-Source HMO, High Option, Family. We can visit a Specialist without referrals from our Primry Care Physician. We have had the same Primary Care doc for more than 20 yrs. Combined, my wife and I take 6 prescription meds. We never pay more than $50 for a 90-day supply--all via the internet and takes less than a week. We have routine exams to check cholesterol and other bloodwork. There is a $20 co-pay to see our Primary Care Doc and a $30 co-pay to see a specialist. We have annual physicals. I have had Brain MRIs two yrs in a row without quibble from Aetna. My costs next yr will rise $36.00 per month. We don't need "change"--it works for us and is affordable, though we are both retired. I challenge anyone to find a death certificate that lists cause of death as "No Health Insurance"----I suspect some should reflect "Ignorance" as cause of death. I fully expect Aetna to make a profit; otherwise, they're out of business. Don't you expect Publix and Kroger to make profits? And no matter what happens, we will still have the young invincibles who will choose not to play.

I challenge anyone to find a death certificate that lists cause of death as "No Health Insurance"

. . and I challenge anyone to find a death certificate that lists cause of death 'excellent health insurance and good medical care'. The point is that we both evidently have great health insurance programs that we've paid into for some time - and the program is now serving us well. No one is asking us to 'change'. (and I probably won't). But what about those with no health insurance, no employment, no choice.? There are insurance companies that are offering good deals to young healthy persons - and those citizens will be able to make their choice. Those with problems, pre existing conditions, etc. should also have a choice - and if the insurance companies won't offer them one, then the government MAY. . . and the young invincibles should take a good look at their parents who planned for and hoped for the inevitable - old age/possible health problems. The alternative to that is . . . . .

I have United Healthcare. $1500 deductible, $334 a month premium. $25 co-pay to visit my primary doctor & $25 to see a specialist. No referrals needed. No co-pay for lab test. I’m taking 2 prescriptions $25 co-pay for brand names, $15 for generics. My monthly cost $37. Dental not covered, maternity, well, I’m too old. If hospitalized, I have to pay 20% to $10,000. Annual physical exam & lab works are good. Except for that woman’s stuffs started to give me all kinds of problems. Finally I received an okay from my insurance for hysterectomy. Had to wait for a year (you know, pre-existing condition) but of course that will increase my premium extra $49. I’m in my mid 40’s, and in able to remain healthy, I have to maintain a diet program, reflexology, massage & natural supplements. By doing so, I’ve only been to my doctor twice this year. I’m self-employed and my income drop 75% from last year. So, do you think I have a good insurance? Do you think Obama have a better plan for me?

mandates certain coverages that drive our costs up. And the insurance companies don't have a choice--if they want to do business in Georgia! Now for those who are unemployed,first we need to determine why not and make some effort to get them working. I'm one of those "Teach them how to catch fish, don't GIVE them fish" people. Unfortunately, the economy seems to be in a "jobless recovery" state, with no certain improvement on the horizon. And I'm not adverse to changing my plan, but it's gotta be a really good offer to tempt me!

$334 a month premium.!!!! OUR COUNTRY should have a plan for you that is more cost effective than that - with the rising cost of healthcare. You waited a YEAR for a hysterectomy? There ought to be a law!! I must admit - I belonged to an employment group that paid and is still paying my premiums - except for Medicare. (Full health benefit for retirees). Other similar employers offered more salary - without the full benefits. My parents advised me to go with the employer that offered full benefits. Boy, am I glad I followed their advice! The program includes dental and vision! Each year we have to fight the employer to continue this. . .but it has made a big difference in our lives and our BUDGET! You should have the same CHOICE that the members of Congress have! Look into it! . . and then demand that that is part of the choice in the bill. Thanks for sharing. It gives me an idea of what is going on in the real world. Stay strong!

Wish I had an answer to that one. I wonder how many 'working' moms are taking classes that are offered for finding 'better' employment. It seems like such a 'catch 22' situation now. It took a long time for me to reach this stage - and believe me there were challenges - right? But I'm so glad I'm not confronted with what's going on now with young people. I too believe in the 'teach them how to fish' philosophy. I've seen it work - when there were jobs! (We're grateful for every gray hair - and health insurance!!)

Hey AtHomeGym - it sounds like you have a good insurance plan. Is the cost you pay the total premium or the cost your employer passes on to you? What many people dont realize is that they may only pay 25% of the true cost of their health insurance and their employer covers the rest. If costs keep increasing the employers will be forced to pass along a larger part of the increase to the employees.

I am really concerned over the tax Congress says they want to impose on "Cadillac plans". The definition they use (annual cost over $8,000) is not a good one. At my company we have a number of older employees and as a result we have a lot of claims. Blue Cross Blue Shield has informed us that that due to the cancer claims and heart surgeries our group had in 2009 that our premium was going up more than 75%. That would make our plan a "Cadillac Plan" in Congress' eyes despite the fact that it is a run of the mill high deductible plan. The "Cadillac Plan" tax will increase the cost of healthcare to our employees because the company wont eat that additional cost.

Increasing interstate competition would likely help hold down costs, and if there are cases where groups or individuals cannot get coverage due to pre existing conditions or claims history then let the government reinsure the health insurers for a portion of the risk to hold down costs. In Georgia we have an assigned risk pool for workers compensation insurance and part of the losses in that program are spread among the other insurers in the state, but since the government thinks they can do a better job of providing health insurance let them provide reinsurance to the health insurance assigned risk pool.

The bottom line to it all is if Congress is going to force a public option on us, they should have to be participants also. Congress has seen fit to keep themselves out of Social Security and have a very rich Health Insurance plan (a Cadillac plan which they are planning on exepmting from the tax they want to impose). What is good for the taxpayors should be good for them.

claims to pay 70% of the premium but it actually works out to about 66%. BTW, Congress is NOT "out of Social Security"--all mbrs elected since 1984 pay into Social Security and can expect to collect benefits--provided funds are available!

You lose the argument so instead of standing your ground and debating you point of view rationally.. You go off the deep end.. Cuss and rant and leave..

My sources "ain't" real? REALLY.. WOW... give me just one...!!

BTW.. I have never claimed that I was a great debater.. Again is that just another statement you can't prove or just made up? I do however happen to know just what a debate is... Making statements then when some one argues against it.. You freak out claim we all make it up and run..

Actually I hate to see you go.. I love for people to see what Socalist are like..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I've won every argument with SL.

Disagreeing with an argument is not BREAKING AN AGRUMENT.

You guys always confuse that one.. You think by disagreeing you win.

You presented excellent arguements on some of our "battles" but EVERY one... no.

Points and Counter Points Jeff.. You know what a Debate is as well as I do...

Just saying you are wrong does not win the debate does is?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I agree completely that the disagreement, per se, is meaningless.

It is my razor sharp analysis backed by impeccable research and coupled with the keen intellect which allows me to express my thoughts so eloquently that has led to my triumphs.

Ah, Monday! A new week for you and I to work to support all my (voting) friends.

LOL. Hope you had a good weekend.

He is then stabbed by several other conspirators, and at last by MARCUS BRUTUS...

Oh well.. We fight on..

Had famly here ALL weekend... Thank God for Mondays..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Just saying you are wrong does not win the debate does is?

Yup! When the 'it' is the truth!!

Moveon.org? George Soros
Salon.com? Pro Islamic Fanatist
Socialismconference.org/Young Americans for Socialism

Which truth do you want? Yours?

or mine?

Obama Promise Keepers?

Factcheck.org one more of those fake sites suggarfoot said I used..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

What Jeff said.

Short, and sweet, and absolutely to the point. That's the stuff.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

I personally hate to see you go. But I do tire of hearing people complain about our healthcare system when it has saved my life twice and the lives of many I know and care about. Think about this: How many people do we know that would be dead if this were the 1950's?

I mean really. My insurance company paid the bulk of my massive bills and my doctors and caretakers will always be heroes.

Calm down Ms. Suggarfoot and retract your vulgar. You parting post reminds me of the scene in the Wizare Of Oz where the witch is on fire and the flames doused with water. And as she is Melllllllllting. Well, I think you get the point.

Clean it up, open your mind, and stop trashing Mr. Lindsey because he sets out some mighty powerful arguements debating the hatred of insurance companies and elimination of choice in our current healthcare system. Now don't go off on my on this choice thing. Anyone with an IQ can see our choices dwindling rapidly.

I'm so glad that you have health care that you can afford and serves you well. There are those, at this moment, who are making decisions that are detrimental to their health. This should not happen in our country. I too have questions about the government mandating that we purchase health insurance. I don't see the precedent for that. We are not required to get vaccinations; we are not required to be healthy; - but we are required to have car insurance, homeowners insurance, etc. Now, in order to continue to be a world power - our citizens will have to be healthy in mind, soul, body and spirit. There are those who will not choose to achieve this through medical means. In some countries, this is allowed - and there are alternative healing methods that appear to work for those who choose these methods. To lightly dismiss a 'Harvard' study is disingenuous - but your right. There were other studies mentioned in my reference, if you're interested, you do the research - not all can be considered 'left' wing dupes. The point in this discussion is the COST of having a healthy citizenship. Most average Americans receive their health insurance as a benefit through their employment. With the high rate of unemployment at this time, millions are making decisions regarding the health care of their families. If they qualify as 'poor' - there is Medicaid. If they are 65, there is Medicare. These programs work in concert with existing insurance companies. There needs to be something for the person who is getting NO HELP with medical/health needs. Some people made it plain that they are concerned with the cost of government (providing services to the people). Over 1000 lobbyist are in Washington as I type. This is a show of how the insurance companies respond to crisis. My insurance company has notified me that next year my premiums and cost for medication is going UP. What about you? What MAY be proposed is another choice – not a mandate to change the choice that I have made. In my situation, I will not make a decision based solely on cost - but based on the care that I have received, etc. I probably will not change - but I feel others who are not in my situation should have the CHOICE.

My insurance company has notified me that next year my premiums and cost for medication is going UP. What about you?

I believe you will appreciate this thoughtful article.

It amazes me at the demonization that is hurled at the insurance companies. My disgust is the lack of truth being injected on this whole argument about insurance companies and coverages. And I do not care one bit for my premium increases this year. But I am thankful for my gracious coverage.

Ms. Suggarfoot should redirect her anger away from the insurance companies and focus more on the politicians that get in the way of sensible healthcare and have created the monster we wrestle. All the ridiculous tests and waste is inexcuseable. Until fundamentals in the system are fixed we will never experience reform and affordable and practical healthcare.

We could go on and on posting 'facts' that support our opinion - and that's not a bad idea. However, what is more important is for knowledgeable citizens to do their own research, decide who and what they want to believe - and express their finding/concern to their representative in Congress. That is what democracy is about. The waste that you state is inexcusable is being addressed in the proposed bill (remember, there is supposedly an 80% agreement on the content of the proposals.) I posted some time ago a projected escalation of health care cost if nothing is done/changed. Everyone is concerned about the cost - but visionaries are also concerned about the health of our country. We are not #1 - but we should be! We can post, research, express opinions - but unless we are sharing these opinions with Congress, we're wasting our breath! Most of our representatives have a person who monitors blogs regarding issues. . but individual communication is important. There is a difference between 'mass' mailings/emailings and a direct letter/email. Suggarfoot's anger is not at the insurance companies as much as it is the disrespect and negativity expressed by some who have an opposing idea. (It's a sure way to 'shut up' someone who may bring another point to the table) I hope Suggarfoot and others continue to express themselves in this forum. One blogger made an elegant plea for civility . .and Lord knows I'm trying. There are times when I would just like to slap the letters off the screen!! Many thanks to those who are trying like I am.

Everyone should research - and discern their own truth.

More on Calvin Woodward

.

While at breakfast this morning, I heard some customers discussing the healthcare program in Denmark. The bottom line is that their citizens wanted their monies’ (tax) to go for 'life' issues rather than 'things' issues. They pay more for universal health care than we do - and they are very pleased with it. They have an interesting tax system (and they pay a lot in taxes - but they're satisfied (according to those who were interviewed). Does anyone know the details of their tax system?

I don't know much about their taxes but, I did pay $15.00 for a hamburger in Copenhagen about 10 years ago. Egad that was my first $15 hamburger. But everything is much more expensive in most parts of Europe and taxes add a big percentage to the bill.

Heck, if you look at how most middle class live over there it is far less “rich” than what we experience here in the states. For example, houses are much smaller and usually a multi unit affair (like apartments) rather than single dwellings that we have. Also, forget about having 2 or more cars in the family. That’s unheard of unless you are in the “rich” league. That’s how they adapt to the higher cost of things.

Now if we are going to model their socioeconomic schemes then we better prepare to alter our lifestyles as we mostly likely will not able to afford our overall standard of living.

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

"Denmark has a very high income tax rate and a moderate corporate tax rate. The top income tax rate is 59 percent, and the top corporate tax rate is 25 percent. For independent businesses, income kept in the business is taxed at 25 percent. Municipal taxes ranging from 22.3 percent to 26.7 percent are determined by each county. Other taxes include a value-added tax (VAT) and an inheritance tax. An income tax reduction set for 2008–2009 has yet to be implemented. In the most recent year, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 50.0 percent."

The less you contribute the more you take.. The more you contribute the more you pay.. Simple.. Stop working and let the Government do it all for you..

Sounds like Public Option Healthcare to me..

btw.. Demmarks middle class falls well below the median we consider middle class.. Their middle class is our lower class.. Their standerd of living is much "simplier".

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Don't go away angry, just go.

You won't be missed!

I am not sure what you truly added to this discourse either, Suggarfoot. You defend your points with vigor but do not care to see the other side of it. Instead of discourse, we get invective. Not all of us want an ever increasing governmental oversight over our lives. Not all of can even fathom how our constitution would allow the government to require purchase of health insurance. In any case, your profanity laced screed was just as effective as your campaigning for Nicole File last year.

Calm down, realize that all of us have valid points of view, and then come back and debate. Avoid screeching and profanity. At least you make sense for the most part and can deliver a cogent point. You have Bonkers beat with that one.

I hate to see you go, please stay.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Our opinions and thoughts need to be expressed. Please, please don't leave! These people who can only respond with negativity try very hard to make us follow their lead. You're a thinker - and the time for thinkers has come!! Please, please stay!

A specific member of the legislature or the President asks for a study to be performed using federal dollars (our tax dollars) to support his or her case. Well of course there is going to be just a little bias favoring the position of the requestor. Buttering one's toast.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

You show me where Americans are NOT dying because of inadequate health care - OK? If you dismiss the 'facts' from varied sources of research organizations - as exaggerated, that is your right. My 'sheet' listed the studies from which these 'facts' have been garnered. I look forward to your factual information.

You have made the statement not I.. now prove your point..

I read your entire "fact" sheet … it gave a few sources none of which gave nothing more than slight empirical data.. None gave actual researched data that you can dig into..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

David's Mom, the FACTS show that this "President's" health care reform will cost taxpayers MORE that it does now. Haven't you learned that whatever government program is put into place ends up costing 2-3 times more than what the talking heads in Washington state?

This is not about reform, it's all about control by the politicians. They don't care about our health, they only care about having more power.

Why health care reform will cost more than Congress and Obama say it will.

President Barack Obama and the domineering Democrat leadership in Congress never talk about freedom. They whine about "fairness" and "security," but the word "liberty" is not in their vocabulary.

Read what you reference:

President Obama has said he will not sign a health care reform bill unless it's paid for. If it doesn't lower costs, he will suggest spending cuts to make sure the deficit doesn't grow. That's a promise he says he will keep. But what about future presidents and members of Congress?

From the first paragraph of SLATE. We should refuse reform because of what 'future' presidents may do? Interesting - where were you when the 'other' guys were in 'control'? You've been here for 13 weeks under the name of Joe. Your contributions are interesting and informative. Thanks.

Real cost will likely be double or triple.

The current Bill supposed revenue neutral postion is a farce.. Government Run Healthcare was intentionally left out as well as the "Doctor Fix" 250 Billion dollar program was left out.

The CBO report noted that the 900 BILLION dollar price tag was arrived by the ESTIMATES provided by the Administation.

There are so many games being played here that no one truly knows what the final price tag will be...

Here is an excerpt from one of my blogs:

"We already know the real cost will go far above that..

Let's look at the game they are playing..

The TAX increases and revenue (Medicare) cuts start in 2010..

The first stage of the UHC bill does not start until 2015..

So we have 5 years of taxes and cuts BEFORE WE EVEN START TO SEE ANY OF THOSE BENEFITS.

The 2nd stage kicks in around 2017.. and still the full weight is not born on the taxpayer.. Now 7 years of taxes and cuts without benefit.

The final portion and the largest expenditure of monies kick in 2018.. So we have 8 years of taxes and cuts for 2 years of benefits.

Now here is the kicker the final blow comes in.. The Government fully expects employers will not be able to afford all the extra fees and penalties attached so they will drop the employee from healthcare coverage.. and they just assume that the employers will give the employee the funds they normally contribute.. Thus those funds are considered an increase in pay and now TAXABLE."

and that is the major bulk of the program.. If the Employers don't give the money to their employees then the whole house of cards fall in.

So what games are they playing now.. Reform is nescersary but this is not the way to do it..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

CHECK HERE

MORE INFO

This discussion - although entertaining - is just interesting. We have a long way to go before the final bill is presented to the president. In the meantime, have you noticed how much money the media is making in running the 'ads' for and against 'reform'? When you feel secure enough to discuss without the snide personal attacks - maybe. I'm interested in your 'plan' for the necessary reform. Please send it to your Congressman!! I've made a pledge not to engage in any more 'one upmanships' on this board. Facts without personal attacks are a more civil way to go - right? I still feel that having a discussion with you is like 'herding cats' - you see God is not through with me yet - I have a long way to go before living up to 'my pledge'.

Your "CLICK HERE" to Factcheck.org.. pretty much proves our point about Obama.. He can not tell the truth he exaggerates everything.. Of the three examples.. Factcheck found him to be inaccurate.

"More INFO" again just a link to the site.. What has it to do with my statements above?

This is America RIGHT?

Free MARKET Principles still rule RIGHT?

" have you noticed how much money the media is making in running the 'ads' for and against 'reform'?"

They are making Money from both sides.. WHO CARES..?

Capitalism is what it is.. If I have a vested interest one way or the other.. I buy TV time.. That is the way it works.. The Media makes Money and I get my message out..

AS far as having a discussion with you... Go ahead spit one liners and talking points.. Don't defend your position.. Play the victim.. you started it..I will attempt however to counter your talking points every chance I get. Not to change your mind.. but to enlighten someone else who might be interested.

Oh and btw... where is my personal attack on you? You replied to Joe I replied with the Cost of UHC above.. I stated facts not conjecture and I see no personal attack.. You decided not to challenge those facts..I did not even reference you.. Victim status doesn't work to well here DM.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I see no personal attack.. You decided not to challenge those facts..I did not even reference you.. Victim status doesn't work to well here DM.

Nice try at no personal attack. Who cares? Those who have members in their families who are making tough choices because of the cost of medical/health care. Some insurance companies are now contemplating 'less screening' in their offerings. Early screening would have saved lives in the past. We know more now - and have better medical practitioners and equipment. . .and the cost of using this new-found knowledge will save lives. What is more important - the bottom line on the 'profit' chart - or the life of an American citizen?

Link to them...
I will view all in context with what you said... I will not ever say I have never fired a shot.. but usually it is after I was shot at..

If you take a shot at someone.. why are you surprised when they fire back..

I know being poor sucks.. I was once.. I even had to hunt deer out of season just to provide meat for my family.. I know poor.. 10-15 calls per day from creditors.. Living "free" off of family on their property because we could not afford a place of our own.. Now I could have just railed against my predicament take Gov assistance and family assistance or I COULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT..

I decided it was my CHOICE to do something about it.. I took 2 more part time jobs.. I started to educate myself.. Started going to college.. Paying for it on my own.. I changed my path..
I made BETTER choices.. So don't tell me about the poor. I had no Healthcare coverage for years... I paid out of pocket OR I negotiated the cost and payment plan with the Doctors.. You know what.. they were glad to do it...

Life is CHOICE.. WE are bound by the choices we make. I did it.. SO everyone else can too.

IF you decide to sit on your butt and wait for someone to come along and give you a handout then you will never break out of the cycle of poor choices.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I enjoy discussing 'health care' - but discussing it with you becomes a discussion about you and me. No one cares about that topic. Bye!

"I enjoy discussing 'health care' - but discussing it with you becomes a discussion about you and me. No one cares about that topic. Bye!"

Translation: I've lost the argument; I know that healthcare is nothing but a government boondoggle meant to give more power to politicians, and I can't make the argument in favor of it.

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.

That's just it Joe. There is no argument. Supposedly just a discussion regarding different ideas and opinions about health care for Americans. If you believe that Obama is a liar - that is your right. The concern about health care for our citizens SHOULD be of more concern than what Obama says. Americans have been trying to get reasonable health care since FDR. With the current economic scene, it is brought to light that most Americans had health care as a benefit with their employment. We're not only talking about people who made 'choices' or 'being poor'. We're talking about people out of work and no affordable health care insurance until they are 65!

The "President" also promised that the unemployment rate would not go up if we allowed his spending bill to be passed.

Don't you get it yet? This "President" will do or say anything to get a bill passed. He is a liar that cannot be trusted.

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.