I've enjoyed reading this discussion! I agree that Americans have become entitlement junkies. I would like to add that our education system (especially NCLB) contributes. NCLB essentially demands that all students are the same, should be educated the same, and should all be prepared to go to college. If this logic is continued, then, we all should be able to perform the SAME jobs (doctors, teachers, electricians, etc). The reality is that we are not born with the same capabilities, and our society needs workers to perform different functions/jobs. School children with special learning needs are placed in classes that require performance beyond their abilities; the school system's response is to provide "accommodations" that level the playing field, to keep up the appearance that we all learn the SAME. Hence, entitlement rears its ugly face. If the students still do not respond positively, more accommodations are provided. The "regular" students come to resent those accommodations, perhaps solicit for their own or, in my opinion, worse, they themselves are tested into special education programs with some fuzzy sort of learning problem so that they too get these accommodations. The entire situation becomes so complicated that school systems have to hire consultants and coordinators and assistant coordinators and directors and lawyers to say...this kid is/is not this or that label. Corruption of the entire process necessarily ensues, and children's needs are no longer of any real concern and true education is no longer even a consideration.
I see that I mixed up entitlement mentality with the ills of the American education system, so I apologize for any confusion. My point is, in agreement with GitReal and Dawn, that hard work builds muscles and character. I don't think one is born with a desire to work hard, and the school system won't "educate" it into anyone. Looks like it's up to parents and society.

It does start in the schools. And I cringe when I hear some of stuff my kids repeat and bring home often times in this regard. I am constantly deprogramming them.

I don't think one is born with a desire to work hard, and the school system won't "educate" it into anyone. Looks like it's up to parents and society.

Ummmm.... A huge percentage of "parents and society" won't produce. What possibly could they teach in this regard?

Obama.... The Bernie Madoff Of Washington

Git, I would be one of those deans' list arts graduates and I would have to agree fully with you. If I had maybe stuck with my foreign language degree and acquired multiple language skills, I might have fared better in the market place. Instead, I am living proof of what an art degree yields - bartending. The difference is that I was taught to take pride in any endeavor. There is no disgrace in working hard and earning an honest pay.

Too many don't understand this concept and that is why we have fallen behind as producers - LACK OF PRIDE. Very few actually take pride in their work or what they produce which means working efficiently, expeditiously, and to the best of your ability. It means being a mouthpiece in promoting the company you work for. It means you don't buy Hidden Valley dressing if you work for Kraft. If you take PRIDE in what you produce then you are a representative of that product. That is job security.

Jeez, Git, why haven't these people been taught proper work ethic?

Dawn, your logic is good. I know that success in my military career was assisted greatly by my willingness to go places others didn't want to go and do jobs others didn't want to do. In my first overseas tour (5 1/2 yrs in Germany), more than once, when asked to move, I packed everything I owned in my VW and went off into a new adventure, usually with increasing or additional responsibility. In short, I was used as a "Troubleshooter" to organize or clean up someone else's mess. I just took it as a challenge and not only survived but--in my own opinion--excelled. And for doing that, I was rewarded with early promotions .And during those earlier yrs, I was a bachelor, which made moving much easier. No regrets. And oh yes, I tended Bar too! I just figured I would be there there anyway and I may as well earn some money at the same time.

Perhaps you are tending a bar, but you have an education. You could instead have "career training" and be successful, wealthy, and ignorant.

I am amazed at the number of "professional" people who are incapable of putting together two good sentences in English or formulating (or even recognizing) a valid argument. I'm talking about the most rudimentary verbal and analytic skills--not the obvious fact that not everyone is or can be some sort of humanities PhD. And the average person, despite having some sort of "training," seems neither to read nor reflect. Consider the interviews in Leno's Jaywalking segments.

I still tell students that their aim in going to college should be to acquire an education and this for its own sake, and not merely the utilitarian concern of landing some job later on. And, with this, students should pursue in their majors what they love and what genuinely interests them--even if it is art. I would rather be a starving artist than a blissfully ignorant but well-fed MBA.

I would rather be a starving artist than a blissfully ignorant but well-fed MBA.

I kept thinking about how much I agreed with that statement and then I came across this article: “The financial system nearly collapsed because smart guys had started working on Wall Street.”

Smart is as smart does, I suppose.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

You need to try another bar in southwest D.C. called 'Horse Feathers'.

Back in the day, circa 1980's - 90’s, you could have lunch at Horse Feathers, with the dreaded "lobbyists", and pretty much plan for your retirement money market account around what was discussed. God I love the DoD!

Based on the results of those 'dry martinis' and shots of tequila that I paid for, they were the best investments I ever made.

From what I've seen government contracting, and the protection of it, was, is and will continue to be the best investment going, bar none.

Wall Street 'ain't got nothen' on government contracting and a dry martini.

The difference between 'Wall Street' and 'Government contracting' is that you haven't been reading about the disgustingly huge profits being made from 'government contracting' lately.

And all this time people thought a $300.00 ball-peen screwdriver was expensive.

Muddle, you would have loved my grandfather. His family was originally from Atlanta, but he grew up in East Point. East Point, back in the day, was like Buckhead is now. People from East Point were living in high cotton until 1929 came at which point my grandfathers father lost everything. As was common in that day, he left town to "find work" and never came home leaving my great grandmother, who was crippled from a bout with meningitis, to fend for herself and eight children. My grandfather and his twin were the oldest of their siblings and took upon themselves the duties of being the men of the house. They dropped out of school, The Atlanta Boys School, and took to shining shoes in the streets of Atlanta to earn a living. In addition to shoe shining, they would also pick up any little odd and end job that could be found.

My great grandmother subsequently sold off nearly everything they owned. That is, everything except a set of World Book encyclopedias which she used to teach her boys when they came home from working. They may have had to put in a man's day of working at the age of thirteen, but they did not have to be uneducated.

According to the oral history my grandfather gave me, life during the Depression was harder for city folk because they couldn't grow food in concrete. Eventually, World War II broke and he joined the Army while his brother (my uncle Don) joined the Navy. They military provided for them daily nutrition, something they had not had since they were small children. My grandfather went to the European theatre while Uncle Don was in the Pacific. He met and married my grandmother while in basic training in Mississippi.

Shortly after returning home, finding a job was still not so easy. For a little extra money he took part in a study being conducted by a Georgia Tech professor. The professor was using standardized tests to gauge I.Q.'s. To his surprise, my grandfather, with his seventh grade education, tested at an I.Q. of 150. Granddaddy then took it upon himself to pursue further education and eventually graduated top of his class from Georgia Tech with a degree in engineering.

The point to this story is that his mother was smart in insisting that they pursued knowledge. He used to always tell me that just because a person is poor or works with his hands, does not mean that he has to remain ignorant. He also used to say: "To be ignorant is excusable, everyone begins there; but, to be ignorant by choice or indifference is simply stupid!"

Those encyclopedias are still in the family. My aunt has them now....oh, what I wouldn't give to have them.

I think of a passage from Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind:

. . . fathers and mothers have lost the idea that the highest aspiration they might have for their children is for them to be wise - as priests, prophets or philosophers are wise. Specialized competence and success are all that they can imagine. (p. 58)

Bloom compares family members of his own generation, cousins, etc., who had advanced degrees with some sort of "specialized competence," to his grandparents, who never saw the inside of any institution of higher learning. He notes that their home provided a spiritually rich atmosphere, due to the worldview that they consciously practiced, combined with a deep respect for learning. His assessment was that the grandparents had acquired wisdom and showed the marks of a true education, whereas the various professionals of his generation tended to lack these. His cousins had formidable technical skills; his grandparents had wisdom.

When I was going to school in Cincinnati and living in a rural area of KY, I knew a man in my church who spent his days farming--raising tobacco, mostly. But he had a keen interest in a number of subjects and would often borrow books from me. I would get them back dirty. For instance, the bottom edge of the pages was always black as he would rest the book on his overalls as he read. But it was clear that he had given them a careful reading, as he always wanted to discuss the contents with me. He had no aspiration to move up to a new career; he was retired. And he wasn't out to impress anyone. He just had a natural wonder that spurred him to continue his education.
I still have those "dirty books" on my shelves, and they make me remember this gentleman who understood more than most the true purpose of an education.

Yes, it all boils down to having an innate curiosity about the world around you. Also, the ability to maintain that childlike wonder we once had as children - back when we wanted to know everything. For some, that curiosity is insatiable. With or without a formal education, Guttenberg gave us the most amazing gift ever given to humanity - the access to books and literacy.

I would have to agree that 'formal' education is not prerequisite for vocation, just as intellect is not required for wisdom.

I think it was James and John who asked Jesus if they could sit at the right and left hand of Jesus in Glory! I suppose they may have duked it out for the right instead of left seat anyway.

They weren't Saints at that time, I assume, nor were their names James and John, but they felt as if they were better than all others, apparently, at that point. Anyway they didn't get the seats they requested simply for asking, probably---or better yet--even thinking about it! The assignment of seats wasn't in His job description.

Most attorneys write what they write by a set of rules, just as do PhD's.

However almost all of the major decisions that have been made by the leaders since humanity was established, have been made by either intelligent or powerful men---not lawyers and PhD's.
This is not to denigrate lawyers nor PhD's, but just to indicate that it takes all kinds.

What in blue blazes are you talking about?

. . .that I hear is that it doesn't take a 'degree' or 'power' to demonstrate wisdom and integrity. There are many that I have encountered with neither 'degree' or 'power' that have demonstrated great wisdom coupled with integrity. I wish our leaders, local and national, could all be described as having 'wisdom'/integrity'.

Blue blazes, huh?

I think you know precisely what I am talking about.

On the other hand, your description of those formally educated and those not makes no sure sense, nor clearly states no opinion.

forgive him for he knows not what he says...

Sniffles had the same affliction.. Can't wait to see that run for office.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

It calls to mind one of Deborah Winger's lines in Shadowlands:

"Are you trying to be offensive or merely stupid?"

And I can appreciate you not taking it personally my examples of the over-abundance of fine arts degrees that keep so many from maximizing their potentials as productive citizens because of their reliance on them to obtain a successful career. You are a gem and an asset to your employer. Perhaps you have the mindset to run your own business Dawn. If you ever do I will be your most vocal cheerleader. I so love the entrepreneurial mindset.

Jeez, Git, why haven't these people been taught proper work ethic?

These are the same people that compare todays economic sufferings to those of the Great Depression. We are a such spoiled society.

Obama.... The Bernie Madoff Of Washington

I have been in manufacturing for 12 years now and have worked in multinational firms. I agree that we have lost a large portion of three generations who do not want to work, but want to be entitled. Our trades need to be honestly appraised and appreciated compared to most liberal arts college tracks. I am all for open competition within our own borders with companies. Good ones would survive and good employees would prosper. I am tired of watching our companies go overseas and dealing with the absolute graft that is found there. I am tired of beating a free trade drum that only operates in one direction-into US markets unimpeded. More on it later. thanks for the thoughts

Do we necessarily need to be the leader of the world in all things? We had an unprecedented and artificial economic dominance over the rest of the world after WW2. We were always going to be brought back down to a more comparative situation becaus ethe world is filled with talented people. My take on it is to be much more home focused.
Our desire to do things cheaper has sent most of our manufacturing overseas. There is something called balance of trade that we have been failing at for 30 years. It is a great flow of funds heading overseas.
My point is that there is no nation that our companies can compete truly "freely" with the world over. It is time for the playing field to be leveled. But understand, there will be a significant tradeoff to do so.

Last spring, when the restaurant I worked for was facing closure, many people asked me "How are you going to make it?". While I appreciated their concern, my answer was always: "I'll make it. Whats the alternative? Sometimes in life you just have to redefine for yourself exactly what 'making it' means."

I would say that this same premise applies to economics on a larger, local and national, scale. Ironically, while products have got cheaper over the years the average non-secured debt of households has more than tripled since 1990. It just doesn't jive. One would think that if goods are cheaper that the need for jacking up debt would be less. Unless....and here's a thought...we have all gotten way to gluttonous in thinking that we need more. It seems that we are very much like sharks - we grow to fit the size of our container. The bigger the houses get, the more junk we need to fill them.

I remember my grandmothers' house growing up. She had no dining room - didn't need one as there was plenty of room in the kitchen for a decent table. She did not have two story ceilings - didn't need that either as she was only 5'7". She did not have a separate living room and den - there was one room that served that purpose. And my mom and her two sisters shared a bedroom. On my grandmothers walls were paintings of butterflies that my grandfather had painted for her - not a lot of expensive store bought 'decorations' and she did not have an abundance of silly nick knacks unless it was something the grandchildren had made in school. The only thing she had that was in any way extravagant was the set of encyclopedias that served as more entertainment than the black and white television in the 'living room'. I would say that these days, we have gotten away from the basics in life. I, for one, would love to get back to the basics.

Dawn, I think most of us have ancestors that lived simplier than we do today. I used to go to my grandmother's house and think about the small space that my mom and uncle grew up in. But it worked for them and would work for us. I would like to live simplier to a point.
To go back to a house that small would necessitate a change in neighborhood. Houses that small tend to be in neighborhoods with a bit more crime and turmoil these days. But there is still much we can do without living completely like Thoreau

"I would like to live simpler to a point."

Oh yes, don't get me wrong. I don't want to live so basic that I'm hanging clothes on a line.

That reminds me, a while back there was a scam in which a man placed an ad selling "Solar Powered Dryers" for $50. Those that were taken in by this scam received in the mail a length of clothes line.

“The more you know, the less you need.” - Australian Aboriginal Proverb

I like that one. Here's another:

"He who know that enough is enough will always have enough." - Lao Tzu

I had a wierd double post so I thought I would fill it with the weather. Definitely out of the drought, huh?

we need to apply our brain trust to do things better, faster, and cheaper. If we don't, China or India will.

I would add to that 'brain trust' - goals that are small on 'greed' and big on 'integrity'.

Wanting to keep what you earn out of the clutches of the incompetent, corrupt U.S. government is not greed. The U.S. government only knows how to confiscate, spend and waste money- they have no clue on how to create it. (Except Obama- he thinks that it's perfectly fine to just print it as he needs it)

Greed could be defined as being too lazy to get off of your lazy bum and go out and EARN a living. There are too many greedy people who are satisfied with leeching off of productive citizens or robbing them outright instead of working for a living.

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.

"we have met the enemy and they are us" ( Walt Kelly) just one more pithy proverb. Never forget WE are the U.S. government.

They are the backbone of this Country and employ somewhere between 75% and 85% of all employed.. They are who we need to focus on.. Not the likes of GE who goes to bed with Government.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Small businesss take advantage of hard working employees. Not providing health care or retirements and usually they the biggest tax cheaters.

THE PICTURE IS OF YOU!

as flaming IDIOTS.. But you fit the description very well.

You are obviously an uneducated BOOB.. Please try to spend my money wisely and stop cashing those welfare checks at the liquor store. Jack Daniels is not on the food pyramid..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson