Discussion Room: Universal Healthcare

S. Lindsey's picture

DavidsMom and I are starting this discussion..
It will be open to all participants.

Questions to any poster may be added.

Please keep it civil..

Please attempt to keep Political talking points to a minimum.. I would really like an open and honest forum for the discussion of the UHC.

First Question:

The CBO, Obama and others have all said the UHC Bill will be revenue Neutral and will actually save money.. Where are the savings coming from?

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Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 10:21pm.

Part of the savings declared by Obama and Company is from removing the Fraud, Waste and Abuse from Medicare. My observation on this is.. If they know that there is indeed Fraud in Medicare.. Why don't they go after the abuse to prove that they in fact can and have the WILL to do it.. Show us the revenue gained from those actions and maybe we can support the bill.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Submitted by Davids mom on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:16pm.

I'm reading Elmendorg's letter to Congressmen - and 'glancing' at the Analysis of the President's Budgetary Proposals for Fiscal Year 2010. I'll be back - probably Sunday. Have a great weekend!

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Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 3:59pm.

I just hope the madness ends in 2010.
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Submitted by blowback on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:07pm.

Anyone have an idea what going on with these sounds?

Submitted by blowback on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:11pm.

Any ideas?

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:10pm.

more than likely coming from early arrivals of some participnts in this weekends Air Show at Falcon Field in PTC.

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Submitted by dawn69 on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 12:33am.

I heard them too, at my daughters softball game this afternoon. We thought it might be thunder, but there was never any lightning.

It reminded me of several years ago when the pilot broke the sound barrier over Atlanta and all of the metro area felt it. I was in the shower when that happened and remember the whole house shaking. I thought we had had a minor earthquake. My husband was beating on the bathroom door and shouting "Are you O.K. in there?". When I got out, he said he had been worried that I had fallen. I just looked at him in disbelief - the whole house shakes...so you assume that I had fallen!!!!

Yeah! That pilot wasn't in nearly as much trouble as the spouse.

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Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:37pm.

when I came home this afternoon.
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Submitted by Tug13 on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 4:31pm.

Hack? Eye-wink

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Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 5:03pm.

Probably not.

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Submitted by Davids mom on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:14pm.

We started counting. Sounded like B52's. If a certain number went 'up', it meant we were at war. Memories of the Cuban Crisis. (Air Force personnel - SAC)

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:43pm.

You won't hear them around here--and they're usually over 30,000 ft.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 3:27pm.

You hear them when they take off and/or land - like at an air force base. I just said it reminded me of that sound. No plane is at 30,000 feet when it lands or takes off - right? Male testosterone-geeez.

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 3:52pm.

The point was that there are none anywhere near here to be heard doing anything at ANY altitude. And there's nothing in the air show that is anywhere close to the decible level of a B52. Ah, I know--we aged folks have both hearing AND memory deficits! I think the nearest ones are at Barksdale AFB, LA. I have had the experience of observing B52 strikes (I was at 6,000 ft) and it's an awesome sight, watching the ground boil upward in one continuous long line. And trust me, testosterone's got nothing to do with it.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 4:54pm.

Point well taken. My point - the similarity in sound just made me REMEMBER counting the number of planes taking off - nothing else. I'm just thankful that I'm still here and have the ability to remember. We have friends who aren't here anymore - and the memory is bittersweet. Sorry about the testosterone quip.

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 5:49pm.

Sorry, but I think someone was feeding you bad info---number of takeoffs have little to do with Defense Condition (DEFCON) status--there is just no direct correlation.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 6:12pm.

Where were you? As a wife on a SAC base, we knew when our husbands would be in 'danger'. . . and we counted those 'take-offs'! Especially if the base was on alert. There was always one B52 'up' - but when they ALL left, we knew this was more than an alert. They all left in 1962. No one 'fed' me anything. That was my life! If for security reasons, that was 'unfounded' information - so be it. It was what we believed. . and held our breath each time the take-offs happened in '62. SAC stands for Strategic Air Command. All B52's left our base - and we were in the midst of the Cuban Crisis. We were most grateful when they all returned. That was not always the case - as we lost a crew on a 'test' flight. There is a special place in my heart for the young families today who are experiencing the combination of pride and fear as their loved ones serve our country in the military.

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 7:52pm.

First, in 2962.I was stationed at an isolated detachment in Germany, in charge of 15 soldiers working a 24x7 mission with 2 German civilian employees and about $5000,00 worth of equipment I was responsible for. Next, no matter how many B52s took off from wherever you were, the record shows that none ever dropped any ordnance on Cuba. And I don't know how you can accurately say "they all left in 1962" and even if they did, you have no way of knowing why they did.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 10/11/2009 - 8:44pm.

Congratulations on your assignment in 1962. We were in the states. I did not intend to imply that we (our B52's) were sent to Cuba - but base personnel was notified - and it was published in the papers that we were one of the 7 targets in the US that Russia 'may' aim for. If you had been in the states at that time, you would have been aware of the fear and anxiety of the time. Civilians emptied the stores of food and supplies. I'm sure that when you left the service, you had even more under your command. . .it sounds like you were a SGT. at the time. I can accurately say 'they' all left - not one plane was on our base for days. There was also an extensive underground area where 'security personnel' stayed. This was before 'cell' phones - and when personnel went on alert - we didn't know where they were. You would be amazed at what the 'base wives' knew. During that time, all major personnel were advised to get their personal business in order. It was harrowing for a young bride. I think that the personnel that I knew had a little more information than an NCO in
Germany. By coincidence, my relative was base commander. (The relative was not my husband) Do some research on the job description and duty of the B52's in SAC. (Strategic Air Command) It may give you a better understanding of the what and why of 1962 military actions.

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 3:39pm.

How about we just agree to be happy about the outcome of that crisis and leave it at that---at least until someone else hears strange local sounds and I make some attempt to help them understand. Also, don't mistake my comments: I have always had the utmost respect for SAC crews--I can't imagine what it must feel like to take off and have neither any guarantee that you'll ever reach your tgt nor any guarantee that you'll return home safely. And what I knew as a 3-yr active duty soldier in 1962 isn't the issue--it's what I learned in the next 18 yrs of active duty. BTW, I am very familiar with the NSA and when I was working had to visit there monthly or often more than that to conduct official business. Selah.

Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:14pm.

Thanks so much! There are too many 'civilians' who don't realize the sacrifice that our military makes in order for us to have our freedom.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 10/11/2009 - 9:13pm.


During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the US Strategic Air Command was placed on DEFCON 2 for the first time in history, while the rest of US military commands (with the exception of the US Air Forces in Europe) went on DEFCON 3. On 22 October 1962 SAC responded by establishing Defense Condition Three (DEFCON III), and ordered B-52s on airborne alert. Tension grew and the next day SAC declared DEFCON II, a heightened state of alert, ready to strike targets within the Soviet Union.

I may be old - but I'm not senile. The memory is still pretty accurate.

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Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 7:21pm.

"... the matador, the matador, the matador..."
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Submitted by PTCGOIL on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 5:18pm.

I'm not quite that old, but in '62 we lived on an air base in Spain. My father was a pilot with SAC. I remember my father on high alert for a long period of time. I remember the air raid drills in school and being told we could be bussed out of school to parts unknown without our father. He was gone alot. My mother was under so much stress with 4 kids and not knowing what was going to break loose or where we would end up.

Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:18pm.

I never thought about what children of pilots must have gone through - especially if they were with their father. We came real close that time to a horrible war. Thank heavens 'it didn't break loose'.

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Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 5:15pm.

About 3 years ago a B-52H made a couple of low passes over the Atlanta Motor Speedway prior to the start of the race. With eight turning and burning, a "BUFF" has an unique sound.
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Submitted by Fyt35 on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 2:18pm.

…of the four years I was an electrical systems technician (spark chaser) on B-52 d, G and H models, along with KC-135's. What a phenomenal bomber it is, we had one ferried from Warner Robins to the depot in OKC with and 18ft crack, like nothing!

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 4:16pm.

I know those had to be some times you'll never forget. And what's so remarkable is that they're still serving! Just as a matter of interest, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the owner of "It's A Grind" across the street from the hospital, was a BUF driver--you might like to have a chat with him if you happen to stop by.

Submitted by AtHomeGym on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 2:03pm.

In either 1979 or 1980, I had reason to visit theTonopah Electronic Warfare Range in Nevada. Some of our soldiers had deployed there with Mobile Radar Intercept equipment to train against the Foreign radars (obtained via various methods) being operated on the range. Around noontime, I was walking from one location to another and all of a sudden the sun was blanked out and a huge shadow passed over me. Of course there was no noise for a bit until it got past--but I looked up and there it was--B-52 in true low-level, just over my head. I don't know the altitude, but I know Boeing did some structure testing at 300 Ft at 300 Kts. It surely was no higher than that. All I know is that it scared the Bejusus out of me!

Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 5:24pm.

I lived for two years listening to that BUFF sound and the sound of F104's. I hope we never have to experience another 'Cuban Crisis' situation. I was a young bride, far from home, and among strangers. Boy did I want to go home! Called my father - and he said I belonged with my husband. (My husband was on 'alert'). My next door neighbor sent his wife and children to another part of the country and kindly offered to take me with them. . .true friendship. I stayed with my husband; the Russians retreated - and life went on.

Submitted by MYTMITE on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 12:08am.

and believe me the wives knew much and was involved in much. I remember the alerts and when they called an alert there was a list--one person got called and they were responsible for calling so many others down the list and so on. Many times my husband left as soon as his call came in and I called the people on his list. By the time the Cuban missile crisis came I was divorced but still living in So FL, we were so very close to Cuba. There were convoys going up and down the streets constantly and I remember being so grateful that they were our guys. For the first time I felt what people must feel when invading armies came in--(except as I said, thankfully, these guys were ours)--tanks, trucks all kinds of heavy artillery. Right on the corner near our home was a very large tract of land--and believe it or not they established a small army base right there on the corner in our neighborhood. They erected tents and there was all types of equipment and armament all over and helicopters landing there from time to time. Army vehicles became as familiar on the roads as were civilian automobiles. They had none of the amenities they would have had on a regular base. A dusty, sandy plot of land with tents and the above mentioned equipment. At first it was very odd but after a while it became commonplace and we just accepted it as a normal part of life. If I remember correctly they stayed there for well over a year and the men there became part of the community and some of them even married local women. That is an experience I will never forget. I don't know if my children even remember it since they were in the 8-10 year range and I don't remember them being afraid even though you could feel the fear where the adults were concerned--we had no idea just what would happen or who would blink first. I was also there later when Castro released all the prisoners and mental patients who landed in FL after Carter said he would welcome anyone in from Cuba--and believe me they came--we then had a real invasion and South Florida has never been the same since. Without one bullet being fired South Florida became a foreign country on American soil and is more like the old Cuba than Cuba itself. Like the army living on my doorstep, this was something I never thought I would see-- a foreign nation right in the middle of the good old USA--natives became the outsiders and it is that way to this day, much to my sorrow and chagrin. One more thing I have Carter to thank for.

Submitted by winer on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 8:30am.

I was just a little kid during the Cuban Missile Crisis and didn't know I had memories of it. Till I saw a movie about Kennedy (I think) and put dates to the memories. All through grade school the drills drummed it into us about looking for civil defense shelters, where to go, etc. So many years later as a new SAC bride, I asked about shelters on base. My husband laughed at me. If I were to be visiting the alert building on Sundays, maybe they would let us stay. Otherwise, go outside and watch the light show cause it will only last a second. All SAC bases were considered ground zero by the residents if not officially.

So thirty years later, SAC no longer exists. I still love the sound of B-52's taking off, landing. Sound of Freedom they called it.

Every year, listening to the local air show, I get nostalgic tears in my eyes. I try not to look at the schedule of events, to test my memory, hearing the different airplanes and identifying them by sound. It is the foreign planes that always confuse me and since we were only stationed stateside - I guess that is a good thing and meant that SAC worked.

Submitted by MYTMITE on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 9:40am.

different perspective. DM, was the rivalry with SAC and TAC as bad where you were stationed? I can remember seeing a home made sign saying SAC sucks and TAC -----. Can't finish that as Cal would ban me for life. I was very young and semi-naive at the time and was a little surprised that no one removed it. Sure was a different time. We were really together as a nation at that time and I think most of us, while we supported our President, felt that this might be the first time, since Pearl Harbor, that we would be attacked on our own shores but the results would be so much more devestating this time. I remember the empty grocery stores, no gas, the anxiety. Now we experience this when we are expecting snow or if you live in certain areas, hurricanes etc. Something has gone out of our country that we had then. We have all the wonderful and brave young people who are putting their lives on the line in our military but as a whole the country doesn't seem to have that patriotism that we shared. "They" are fighting and when they come home injured or in a casket we rally around them, but day to day unless we have family members serving it does not touch us. Very, very sad--I am old enough to remember the rationing in WWII, the gas cards, the shortage of so many food items. I remember putting food coloring in what basically was a square of lard (I guess) to make margarine. I remember black out curtains and civilian people standing night watch on our beaches for enemy subs, etc. In fact, if my memory serves me well, it was called Civil Defense. We could buy stamps in school that were put in a book and when it was full it could be used toward purchasing a savings bond. Everyone did whatever they could for the war effort, without griping and with a sense of pride. I remember the drills, get under your desk, put your hands over you head and wait for the all clear. I don't think they told you to pray though they could have--prayer in school was not prohibited back then. Some things we did probably did nothing to help end the war but it brought us all together--made us feel we were part of the war effort and that we were supporting our military personnel. Brings back a lot of memories and makes me realize I am a lot older that I care to dwell on.

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 10:34am.

TAC/SAC rivalry? You betcha! I had almost forgotten about that. Wow - the red ‘thingy' for the lard, and all the other stuff was certainly a part of my life! I always wondered how we could be in two wars at the same time - and not be doing some of the 'stamps; victory gardens; and all the other activities that made us ONE NATION. You're right - we were really working together 'back in the day'. My uncle was a 'warden' and had the responsibility of ringing the 'gong' or whatever to warn of danger. (We lived on the corner of the block) He had a steel/metal hat. (The memories are coming fast and furious) I think there are certain things in your life that you 'file' away - but never, never forget. The Cuban Crisis (a lot of my friends had their first child 9 months later) and WWII and the frustration of Viet Nam are among those memories that I have tucked away - and only bring out occasionally. One memory that has remained is the TV and newsreel pictures of the atomic bomb hitting Japan. I'm sure many lived with that fear for a long time - especially those of us who lived on the west coast. (That Russia would do that to us!)
Smiling I guess we appear to be ancient to most participants on this blog. With all of the issues that divide us - I'm sure that our desire for an everlasting peace is universal. The thought of 'war' is devastating. We've lost too many of our finest. This 'new' war - of terrorism is frightful. Anyway - nice to know of the bond!! Thanks!

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 9:24am.

Otherwise, go outside and watch the light show cause it will only last a second. All SAC bases were considered ground zero by the residents if not officially.

That memory sends chills. I remember that being said as a reality of our life on 'base'. Sound of Freedom. How true.

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 6:23am.

Grateful that crisis was resolved. We didn't have the convoys - just an erie silence. . .waiting for the ??? to drop! We were close to Alaska. I remember the 'list'. We had married in '61 - and all I had was my dog. My first son was born 9 months later. (Since the end of the world was near - threw caution to the wind.) The wives were close - and most supportive. Glad to meet ya!

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Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 5:33pm.

You know, come to think of it, the Cuban Missile thingy started by some accounts on Oct. 14, 1962. Yikes that some 47 years ago. Boy, have we come a long way from that era.

BTW, how's the grandson doing?
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Submitted by AtHomeGym on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 8:58am.

in 1960, when the newly recognized Cubam Govt started signing trade and payments agreements with the Russia and other Communist countries. Then it was 1962 when we developed the proof of missile existence from the famous U-2 photos and it went downhill from there. It did prove, however, that a naval blockade, properly organized and executed, will work. Also demonstrated how important it is to have a POTUS and Congress with both the cojones and will to stand up for the country.

Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:40pm.

47 years! My how time flies when you're having fun! Smiling It's getting tight in Afghanistan - this terrorist thing is such a 'different' type of war. My sons play those 'war' games on the computer - and I always wonder - how do you strategize against a terrorist? Stay dry!

Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 10/11/2009 - 9:26pm.

He is out of the service and works for NSA. We attended his wedding in D.C. the weekend of the 26th. He's happy, whole, and safe. For this I'm grateful. I wish that all of our young men and women could come home safe and sound.

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Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 5:06am.

The NSA; Outstanding!!
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Submitted by dawn69 on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:28am.

Congratulations! I am happy for you and your family. Like you, I wish they could all come home safe and sound.

Yesterday, My husband and I took the kids to the air show in Peachtree City. As I walked among the crowd, watching the joyous and awe stricken faces of many little boys like my own, I could not help but to wonder where will these little boys be in 10-20 years. How many of them will be flying F-18 jets, how many will be snipers, how many will be commanding tanks - and where will this be? And...how many will lose their young life that was once so innocent and joyous...how many mothers will have to know that torment?

"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet."
- Emily Dickinson

Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:32pm.

Neither of my sons 'had' to do the military. Believe me, I had the same fears when they were growing up - and have it now for my grands. (My youngest is 11). Dawn - how about that Etta James!!! Her voice is still awesome. I'm sorry we didn't get by the art show - I am a little nervous - because I don't look too much like Maya Angelou. I'm humbled to think that someone thinks of her when reading my words. Maybe someday soon we can 'meet'. I would love to see your artwork. There is a young lady that I taught last Sunday who looked so much like the picture of your daughter. (I asked her if her mom was an artist) Smiling

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Submitted by dawn69 on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:45pm.

I absolutely LOVE her! My mother introduced me to her music and I've loved it since. There is just something so soulful about the blues and its influence on rock and roll in undeniable. My CD collection also includes the likes of Bessie Smith, Robert Johnson (all 29 recordings before Legba claimed his soul), Muddy Waters, and Blind Lemon. Oh, and let's not leave out the jazz and big band: Coltrane, Gene Krupa, Glen Miller, Count Basie, and Miles Davis (the early years). I have to admit, I do not care for Miles Davis after, say, 1975.

When I drive in my car I put in Etta James and sing at the top of my lungs to "All of me" and "Seven Day Fool". That is, until I pull up to a red light. Smiling

"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet."
- Emily Dickinson

Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:51pm.

Wow! My 78 and 331/3 collection! Now - if a lady stops at the light with AT LAST blasting - it's me!! Smiling

Submitted by PTCGOIL on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 4:35pm.

Anyone know if Ted Turner was on the Challenger 604 jet that was flying around at the air show today?

The buffalo painted on the tail was a big tipoff.

Rumor has it he will be at his Montana Grill tonight at The Avenue.

Submitted by blowback on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:13pm.


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