David Ben Gurion Quote;

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

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you got it right

there just is no middle ground.. Here Jeff and I have been going at each other for awhile.. but we ended it tonight.. I recommended a book he would like.. He and I have the same taste in Authors.. You see middle ground..

Israel and Everybody else well there just isn't any..

Rather you believe Israel is Right or wrong is irrelevant to the reality of the Middle East.

I fear in our lifetime we will see the US dropping all ties to Israel. The fact that most of the Middle East still fears us a little and believes we will retaliate against any incursion stops them from invading..

If we bug out and leave Israel to its own defenses.. we will see a glassing of the Middle East before Israel goes down for the count.. They will take everyone else with them.. So what.. some would say.. Good Riddance and all that..

Nukes popping off in the Middle East will not stop there.. India has a few and a few grudges.. They will let them fly.. North Korea.. well that's a whole new "kettle of fish"..

It will drag us into a war where no one wins.. How some people cannot see this is beyond my ability to understand.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I suspect world opinion will play into this much like what happen to South Africa.

As for our continued commitment to Isreal, did someone say we spent more than we took in. The value of the dollars flowing to Isreal will shrink very soon.
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Investments are hardly ever a dollar for dollar exchange..
Israel has been a stop gap for years.. We will cut them off soon I think.. When we do.. Well do you remember those Duck and cover drills from school?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

You really should care because it wont stop at Iran and Israel nuking each other.

And you can't use peace talks in the Middle East, there is no peace and there will never be peace. Sunni hate Shiites, Iranians hate Iraqis, Afgans hate Pakistanis and everyone hates Israel. Why? Because they just do and always have.

Look at Israel and Palestine, peace talks start, fighting stops, then someone from one side or another gets mad over a goat on the wrong side of some line somewhere and the fighting starts back up. Been going on for 2000 years.

Only now we're involved. Ill ask again, Why? Because in the 1960's and 70's Muslim extremists (followers of the likes Iatola Khomeini (sp?) and, now, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad) started blowing innocent people up and taking hostages to spread their "ideals". And its taken us 40 years of peace talks, sanctions, embargo's, and several terrorist attacks to even get to military action (with the exception of Libya and Momar Qaddafi of course).

So we can speak of how Mr. Carter is such a great person who wants to talk out our differences with all our enemies (I would love to hear Jimmies take on WWII and Hitler). Or realize that peace talks fell on def ears then and peace pipe smoking will only come back to bite us in the butt later.

After all, it's a strategic importance.
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we would simply explore OUR OWN resources.. but can we drill here or now? Short answer: NO

We (read our Government) would rather be slaves to FORIGHN aid and keep held hostage by tyrants and dictators.

You want GREEN sources of energy..? FINE... use our resources so the money we GIVE to unfriendly Governments for OIL and use it here for research.. Simple.. no.. we are tied to the world market.. we are tied to the treaties we have signed on to.. But we can still get the cost of energy down until we can get those alternant sources.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

We have the world's largest resource of oil shale in the Green River basin, most of which is on government owned land.

"I am a rich man as long as I don't pay my creditors." - Plautus (from Curculio)

About the oil shale, first check out Alberta's oil sands: Explore Alberta

It's not easy being the carbonunit

Sounds like a marvelous place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

I did some more searching into the oil shale issue. Apparently, I was unaware of the difficulty in 'retorting' the shale and the serious impact it could have on the water in the Colorado River drainage basin - see the RAND research "Gauging the Prospects of a U.S. Oil Shale Industry".

Forgive my ignorance in posting on something I know very little about.

as well Dawn.. we have the technology and the infrastructure.
They have discovered a dome of NG that would and could supply the US with CLEAN energy for decades. Some have said for a century. Are we developing this resource? NO.. and why?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

If only we could harness all the hot air that comes from Washington!

With all the ingenuity and innovation that the people of this country have to offer, it is beyond me why we haven't yet established these alternate sources of energy. We can put a man on the moon, but we can't yet harness wind power?

It seems to be one issue that both sides can agree on ... for our own security and economy we must shake our dependence on foreign oil. Yet, we haven't?

We're more concerned with guarding our neighbors house than securing our own back door.

This group of mealy mouth lying politicians wouldn't know the truth if it walked up to them and slapped them in the back of their heads.

We have the resources.. we have the ability.. so what's the problem?

Lack of a spine.. maybe?
Lack of integrity.. definitely.

Remember when Congress allowed the drilling ban to expire.. and told us all we were going to develop our own resources?

How's that going?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

that the question would be, who benefits the most by NOT exploring these current resources? Political parties are the lapdogs of those who truly make policy decisions.

We had a good relationship with Iran before the extremists took over. Oil wasn't an issue then (Minus the '73 embargo for supporting Israel ). Afghanistan has no oil output. Saudi Arabia is, for the most part, an ally.

Agreed that Iraq is a different story. I wont bore anyone with my outlook on that.

because the CIA via operation AJAX in '53 put Mohammed Reza Pahlevi in power replacing the democratically elected government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq. A fact that many Iranians are very aware of. The Shah was not well liked by the Iranians.

It should be obsreved that while the US had plenty oil to support our economy - well at least till 1971 - our major European allies were much dependent on middle eastern oil.

We are protecting the oil interest of ourselves and our allies.

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Are you disagreeing with the rest of my statements?

Ill concede that we are and have been protecting oil interests in the middle east, just omitted it because the argument has been fought and beaten to death over the past 8 years, but would we be doing this if not for the extremists activities, politics and foreign policies such as the Ayatollah's, the Iranian President, Al Queda, hezbola?

And do you disagree that Peace talks are a waste of breath in the Middle East.

How about that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a psycho just itching to get his finger on a button? And what if he gives nukes to his buddy Chavez? Its easy to bring anything up though Mexico.

but would we be doing this if not for the extremists activities, politics and foreign policies such as the Ayatollah's, the Iranian President, Al Queda, hezbola?

You are right, we are doing this because of these extremists as we want to ensure that their ideology does not threaten the region and its oil. Additionally, Osama is still wanted for crimes against the US.

And do you disagree that Peace talks are a waste of breath in the Middle East.

They are if neither side wants them. For example, the Palestinians will not be happy until all lands are returned back to the ’67 borders and the recognition of a Palestinian State. Israel - on the other hand - just wants them gone. Next on the horizon will be the fight over water and who should get it. That one will be most interesting. And of course, there is the on-going silly argument of “my Muslim beliefs are better than yours” (Sunni v. Shiite). Of course this puts the Iranians - who are not Arab and are Shia - at a slight disadvantage.

How about that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a psycho just itching to get his finger on a button? And what if he gives nukes to his buddy Chavez? Its easy to bring anything up though Mexico.

Yep, Mahmond Nutcase, the Iranian Guard and, Hezbolla should be contained. I think that “el payasito” (the clown) Chavez will be a victim of a failed ideology.

Of course, these are the views of a fat man that rides a bicycle so your mileage may vary.

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"For example, the Palestinians will not be happy until all lands are returned back to the ’67 borders and the recognition of a Palestinian State. "

That statement implies that the Palestinians are content with an Israel with 1967 borders. In actuality, the majority of Palestinians are in favor of the abolition of Israel in totality. The leadership platforms of both Fatah and Hamas call for the destruction of Israel.
It is very hard to negotiate your continued existence. The Israelis are in a very hard place there and it is only going to get worse demographically for them.

"It is very hard to negotiate your continued existence."

Nicely stated. You simply can not reason with the unreasonable.

I was thinking about about the Arab Peace Initiative.

The bottom line, there will be no peace in the region. There are Israelis that wish to take all of biblical Judea for themselves and forcefully exclude all others while the Palestinians wish to remove all Israelis from what they consider their land.

The outlook is not favorable in the region.

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that the majority of Israelis want peace at almost any cost.. Including the now "Infamous land for peace deal".. What happened when they tried that the last time.. Arafat threw it back in their face..

I want you to just DIE.. come negotiate with me.. is not common ground.

Hararetz has reported that Israel's PM has tried that diplomacy tact recently in secret meetings with a third party negotiating with Hamas.. Palestinian response.. The recent rocket attacks against Israel.. Hamas smelled weakness and responded with Terror.

With Iran threatening their total annihilation and Hamas sending children to kill children.. What do Liberals want Israel to do..?

Give more ground.. Their only barrier. The last time Israel gave ground for peace.. Hamas simply moved the Rocket launchers closer..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Yep, it sure is a messy thing.

Land for peace. One side vacates all its settlements and then seals all the remaining occupants inside and then controls all access to the outside world. Now I might be all wet on this but to me this does not represent statehood. Existence like this is like a slow death.

As for what the liberals want Israel to do, I don’t have a clue. President Obama and his naive “Yes we can” platform has already started to pull back from the issue. AIPAC is pretty darn powerful as Sectary of State Baker found out when he announced during a AIPAC meeting in ’89 that Israel needs stop building settlements in disputed lands. That’s a big third rail which can really hurt.

Now about Iran and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, I’m no expert on the manner but I suspect that if Israel feels threaten they will do a surgical preemptive strike before the genie is out of the bottle. We wont do it since Iran could retaliate and shut the Strait of Hormuz. Which, come to think of it, would get us back to the originating issue – oil.

And yes, we need to be exploiting every bit of oil in this country. The fact is our economy, like that of our allies, is petroleum based and to think that we will change that in short order is simply folly. Pursue everything and all technologies.

BTW, hello from RDU.
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Israel will hit them by the first of the year..

and howdy back at cha from Savannah...

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

that I was making to Jeff.. His and his Fathers basic premise is that our belligerence and Israel's "threat" of reprisal is what causes Iran to want Nukes.

What they do not understand.. that there will be no and cannot be any negociating with someone that simply wants you to DIE.

I mean where do you start.. Isreal: We want Peace.. Hamas: We want you to DIE.. Where is the middle ground in that?

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." The strongest reason to keep and "Bear" arms.. Thomas Jefferson

You are absolutely correct--the Shah was an absolute friend of the West. While he might be considered a Dictator, certainly he was of the benevolent variety--much better for Iranians than what they got with Religious Zealots---and yes, we could have prevented it. Ditto what happened in Nicaragua--though that was somewhat different and I won't mention The Panama Canal, which is of considerale strategic value to the US (and of course would not be there if we had not built it). The Canal is under considerable operational influence of the Chinese and many of our Citizens, some who represent several generations of The Panama Canal Company, are saddened and only have memories left of their birth and early years.

Israel would not respond to Iran’s threats..?

Come on quit making excuses for the dictators of the world.. Seems to be a family tradition.

It's your father and the Dems who think we can just talk to them and make them play nice..

They have made a cottage industry of it.. with their trips to Cuba, talking to Chavez, kissing up to North Korea et.. al..

Israel is surrounded by fanatics waiting for a weak spot.. and YOU KNOW IT.. Jeff.

Quit making excuses and playing touchy feely with them and negotiate from a a position of strength.. The stick is all they understand..

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." The strongest reason to keep and "Bear" arms.. Thomas Jefferson

and everyone knows that. I agree with Jeff on what he says. I think everytime George Bush opened his mouth, he took us further down the rabbit hole. I do not think that of Carter. He is a good man who felt words of kindness would work better that bombs. I agree talk first and if that fails, then fight. But the problem is, we didn't need to be in that fight. We need to help our own.

regarding Isreal and Palestine? Will AIPAC flex its muscles and make trouble for the President if he strays too far from a pro-Israeli policy?

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Your argument is flawed in several ways. Of course Israel is surrounded by evil fanatics who wish them harm. Therefore they arm themselves. Yet somehow when we threaten an adversary with invasion and war you expect them unilaterally capitulate. When I point out that actions have consequences, your attitude is to deny that truth and accuse me of siding with dictators. That thought process, exemplified by neoconservative philosophy, has inevitable consequences which continually surprise them because their world view is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of reality.

Bush labels Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the "axis of evil" and then invades Iraq. Do you not think that those action alarmed Iran and North Korea and caused them to accelerate their quest for nuclear weapons to protect themselves against us? North Korea was sitting on a stockpile of plutonium which was under IAEA control and inspection by virtue of a negotiated treaty which, if even more or less followed, called for the eventual removal of the fuel rods from North Korea. Under the influence of that fool John Bolton, the treaty is abrogated and Bolton and his minions launch a series of threats against the North Korean government. Then they are totally surprised when the North Koreans reprocess the fuel rods into nuclear weapons even when we told them over and over that it would happen. Their response then, and yours, is to blame my side for pointing out that this was a perfectly understandable, predictable and inevitable consequence of their actions. We are accused of making excuses for dictators when what we are really guilty of is recognizing the reality that there are regimes in the world that are not intimidated by threats to the point that they unilaterally bow to our wishes.

Cuba is such a self evident example of the failure of this philosophy that it hardly bears arguing. Had the US engaged Cuba decades ago, the communist government would have been overwhelmed by the superiority of the capitalist system. There is no way they could have withstood the onslaught of capitalism except that we isolated them from the consequences of their failures by our embargo. In the near future, the embargo is going to end and we are probably going to turn Cuba into a Hemmingway era Disneyland tourist mecca regardless of what their government wants.

Another fundamental flaw in your philosophy is assuming that a diplomatic initiative precludes any other action if the diplomacy fails, therefore any diplomatic initiative is a sign of weakness. That this attitude denies a thousand years of diplomacy by virtually every government in the world seems irrelevant to your world view. And not just your world view. It's classic neo-conservatism, a philosophy which cannot point to a single historical success in implementation, and it is exemplified by the fact that by the end of the Bush administration there were more people in the armed forces marching bands than were in the entire worldwide US diplomatic corps.

The neoconservative world view is based on fantasy, a fantasy doomed to failure, and when the inevitable failure occurs the philosophy is limited to war as its only response. When war is not an option, there is no further action to be taken except the wringing of their hands in despair, decrying the unjust world and blaming their failures on those of us who recognize and deal in geo-political reality. That's why they can't come up with any functional plans to respond to the Cubas, Irans and North Koreas of the world.

We disagree, but I hope and think that I have made my position clear and have given a reasonable explanation of why I have arrived at the position that I have taken.

Although we disagree... I do enjoy our biting repartee.

First note I did not start with the Mud slinging.. that started with you.. ne⋅o⋅con⋅serv⋅a⋅tism  /ˌnioʊkənˈsɜrvəˌtɪzəm/
–noun moderate political conservatism espoused or advocated by former liberals or socialists generally used by the left as a substitute for NAZI..but that's ok and to be expected.

You started your post with Iran is only responding because of our
threats. I believe you are being a little intelectually dishonest.
Rather you agree or not about rather the State should or should not
have been created is irrelevant. They have been faced with complete
destruction since their creation.

Do they have a right to defend themselves? Of course they do.

My point was who is and has been threatening their destruction
and who have been calling for a jahad against them?

We have not come close to the level of threats they have slung
towards Israel. So Your basic premise is flawed at best.

We do not have a clue as to what they have to live under daily.

How would you like to send your child/wife out to go to School or
shopping not knowing if they will be blown sky high by some murderer
with a bomb strapped to their chest?

My point was it does not help matters to have former Presidents out there stirring the pot with such statements. I know he means well, however he has a disturbing penchance for taking a Dictators position over his own Country. Just an opinion.

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." The strongest reason to keep and "Bear" arms.. Thomas Jefferson

When I use the term "neoconservative", I believe that I am accurately describing the political positions of the self proclaimed neoconservative movement espoused by Norman Podhoretz, Leo Strauss, Irving Kristol and his son William Kristol and laid out in the New American Century documents. It is not my intention to play games with the word. Your equating my analysis with the radical left's, as you say, substitution of the word for Nazi, seems a transparent ploy to associate me with an easily discreditable group and then by discrediting their fringe philosophy implying that my arguments have been refuted also.

Your immediate association of my use of the word neoconservative with mudslinging is not because of the liberals attacks against the word but a reflection of the abject failure of every aspect of the philosophy which, whether you are admitting it or not, is exactly the view point you express.

Then you accuse me of being intellectually dishonest because I said "Iran is only responding because of our threats", when I neither said nor implied any such thing. I said that our threatening posture had caused them to accelerate their quest for nuclear weapons which I believe to be undeniably true.

You started this post by complaining about the statement, "If Iran is on the borderline, the constant threats that we or the Israelis are going to attack Iran is the best thing to force them to say, 'Let's defend ourselves."

That statement is totally accurate. Its what I would do, you would do, the US would do and what Israel would do. Your failure to accept and anticipate that Iran would do it too is an expression of the fantasy aspect of neoconservative thought that is to me inexplicable. Then, when someone points out this obvious truth, instead of recognizing the inherent failure of the neoconservative philosophy, the reaction is to accuse us of siding with dictators.

Its a crafty ploy. It not only keeps you from having to address the failure of your philosophy but it also supposedly puts me on the defensive trying to ward off the "siding with dictators" accusation. The geopolitical reality however, is that dictators around the world use the threats by the neoconservatives in exactly the same way to discredit the opposition in their own countries. The dominant common theme in suppressing opposition groups in Cuba, North Korea, Iran and Venezuela is that they are under imminent attack from the US and therefore they are justified in destroying the opposition groups in order to preserve their national integrity. And every threat uttered by your side is welcomed by the dictators and used to maintain their power. Castro played that philosophy like a fiddle for decades and now Chavez is using it too. Its amazing that the neocons can't see that.

rather our Conservative ideas have failed or not. I realize it has become in vogue to attack Israel.. I mean really if they would just hurry up and die and all that we could have World Peace..

Your statement is like blaming me for having a Plasma TV when a Burglar breaks in to steal it.. If I had not of had that TV then the Burglary would never have happened.

Again you assume I failed to anticipate Iran’s response.. It is obvious what their response was and is to be.. however negotiating with Terrorist is not the option.. When blowing up Children becomes an acceptable method of getting your political opponents to the negotiation table, then my friend you have already lost.

It is like giving in to a Bully.. everytime you give up your lunch money it only makes them bolder.. and in return you poorer.

My point Jeff is simple.. Words have weight.. Especially coming from Former Presidents.. You and I can and do say what we feel.. Right now it is still a free Country.. International press will not care one iota what we say.. However that changes when a former President speaks out in favor of a Terrorist regime. It gives them motivation to believe they are winning..

Much like people like Jane Fonda and John Kerry helped extend and thus lose the Vietnam war.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

It is estimated that at least 85% of the 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinians killed in the June-August war were civilians! As in woman and children.

Israel has done some of the dirtiest fighting ...you might say they invented terrorist attacks!

In 1978, the Palestinians highjacked a buss in Israel. In the shoot out, 34 died. Israel then invaded south Lebanon and killed over 1,000 Lebanese and Palestinian refugees. (that again is woman and children)
Almost the entire world turned against Israel over that. You parot the bs, but you don't know what you are talking about.

After WWII, England and the US had the arrogance to ...make...Israel out of Palestinan land!

It would be like if you owned property and we just came in and took it and gave it to someone we felt sorry for!

Israel passed very harsh laws against the Palestina refugees that stayed.. on their ...own land! If you died and had children, your land could not go to them, it passed to the Israles. Palestinians also were not allowed to vote. All the laws were against the real owners, the Palestinians. That is one of the most unforgivable deals the US was ever involved in. And it is all about oil and greed.

"And it is all about oil and greed." so the establishment of Isreal out of a portion of the British Mandate was about oil? And you chastise SL about reading a history book? Tell me, what oil field were in massive production in those lands at the time of the carving up of the Mandates?
The establishment of Israel was about guilt for the holocaust. They did not have a homeland and were chased, imprisoned, and gased throughout Europe. There were Hebrews living in the Palestine areas as there were Arabs. It was a victorious powers decision from WWII. Welcome to reality. Wars change national boundaries. Israel wasn't about oil.

Maybe I should have said, it is about oil and greed ...now..
When Israel killed all those refugees, we were the only country that I can remember taking their side.

When I say it is about money and greed, I mean it. We keep Israel up because we want a friendly face over there. While Israel has no oil, it is in the right place.

As far as us carving a state out of the Palestinian homeland, that was wrong. They didn't go to war, they did nothing. It would have been more logical to give them part of Germany if you wanted to do something to those that participated in the war.

I'm part Jewish, so don't start telling me I'm anti Semitic. What I am, is a person that thinks, the way we did it and what we did, was wrong.

It has caused hard feelings for generations. The Palestinians are treated like second class citizens in their own country. The laws I mentioned are on the books over there if you would like to check it out.
How would you like it if some other country came in here and gave Georgia to the blacks as reparations? It is about the same thing.

If you guys believe in the Bible, it tells you that the last blows will be between the Arabs and the Jews, in other words, you can't stop them. They have been at it for years, and will be at it till the day we all die.

Because of a strong Jewish lobby, and oil, we shouldn't risk the lives and money of everyone in the country that is..not Jewish..and has no dog in that fight so to speak. Personaly, I think we should just back off and let them go at it.

Clueless is its name... One of many I suspect..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

When blowing up Children becomes an acceptable method of getting your political opponents to the negotiation table, then my friend you have already lost.

Did you do a head count of the number of children killed during the last Gaza attacks by Israel? The numbers are staggering, the photos gruesome.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

from Salon.com a known pro-islamist site.. Those photos were proved to be false.. they dug up graves to parade "the deaths" of children.. don't be gullible Carb..

Israel dosn't have to dig up graves to prove children are killed there.. Israel doesn't have to set up Rocket sites and fire them onto civilan locations. They used precision munitions.. They are not the Terrorist.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

CBS News Israel Strikes Gaza Photos

In pictures: Gaza attack aftermath

In pictures: Gaza Massacre

Gaza ground Attack photos

In Pictures: Gaza under attack

I get it.. You’re a Liberal.. Hate America first Israel second and all that..

I could show you a hundred times more photos of the death and destruction in Israel caused by the Terrorist actions of Hamas and those darned peaceful people of "Palestine".. all fueled by that loving and peaceful Country of Iran.

None of those pics were staged and every one was a true and correct depiction.. Even though the WPO and UFP tried to document those "Massacres" that you say occurred.. but were unable to do so.. Many Civilians were in fact killed.. but a Massacre.. no.

List of Deaths at the hands of Hamas

and that was just from 2000-2002 Jeff... but I know it's all Israel's fault.

But why bother..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Since you cannot refute my actual statements, you attribute outrageous positions to me and then refute those; a classic ploy that you seem to have refined to an art form. In every post here you have reinterpreted my writings into something I did not say and then attacked the argument I did not make. First I'm making excuses for dictators, then I am mudslinging by using the word neoconservative correctly, but in your reinterpretation equating it with Nazi, and now you say I hate America and Israel. Inflammatory charges designed to change the subject and put me on the defensive by having to explain why I am not supporting dictators or why I don't hate America and Israel. However, I am more than familiar with the technique and it doesn't bother me in the least. Nor will I let it distract from my points, none of which you have even attempted to refute because, as we both recognize, such an effort would be futile on your part.

I've enjoyed the riposte and let's leave it both being in agreement with your last statement. "Why bother..."

I stated it.. and you glossed right over it... Wasn't exactly classing you in with the "Hate America First Crowd".. but they do come from your side..Agree to disagree..

btw.. Have you read the James Patterson Cross series.. Highly recommeded..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

I like sparring with someone who can keep up and take the ummmm stuff is a good word, that I dish out.

The reality is that if you divide the country roughly 50/50 both sides gets an equal share of nuts. Those on my side embarrass me sometimes, but they're useful fools, good for votes. Your's are worse. LOL.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I don't know how I've missed him. Do you read Patrick Robinson? Futuristic submarine warfare. You'll like him except for the bad stuff he keeps writing about a member of my family which will surely offend you, you being sensitive about that kind of thing.

Of course Vince Flynn is my favorite. If you like him don't miss Andy McNab's stuff. McNab makes the guy on 24 seem like the Easter Bunny,

For a complete change of pace, try Tim Dorsey's stuff. You have to read them in order so start with Florida Roadkill. Hysterically funny stuff. The most sympathetic character is a psychotic assassin. WARNING, WARNING, WARNING... NOT FOR CHILDREN OR YOUNG ADULTS. DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD PRESENT FOR MOM FOR CHRISTMAS EITHER. I was going to add if you're offended by ... don't read it but the list would be too long so... if you can be offended by anything don't get it. It's so funny I can only read some parts with one eye closed.

Weekends coming up. Steak on the Barby with friends. Is this a great country or what?

Take care.

I will be grilling up a few myself... I have read most of Patrick's work he just doesn't put out enough..

Vince is also my favorite.. Another you might like as a change of pace is Jim Butcher "The Dresden Files" and the "Codex Alera" series..

I will look up McNab this weekend.. Have a great one..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

This was at a Texas Tech University Basketball game. Left to right they are eight years old, two seven year old and two six year olds.

The Cactus Cuties sing The National Anthem

I got a thrill running up my leg.. Maybe I shouldn't have said that about 6-8 yoas.. but he meant chills I am sure..

I was sent this last night.. They are awesome weren't they?

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Not to steal your thunder, but if you count back 18 blogs under recent blogs, you'll see I posted this a couple of days ago. I didn't think I was a liberal, although Fred called me one once, or maybe twice.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

WHAT TALENT!! The best rendition of the National Anthem that I've heard in a long, long time!

I, for one, enjoy the fencing that goes on between you two. Admittedly, I sometimes feel like a little dog yelping in a room of big dogs barking.

Have a great weekend, both of you.

Cute but with one heck of a bite..
Don't sell yourself short kido.. you got dem smarts agoing girl.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

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I get my information from many different sources. Carbonunit is a lot of things, however gullible is not one of them. Israel is like a friend driving drunk. Will we quit enabling their self destructive behavior or keep making excuses for their unsustainable habits?

It's not easy being the carbonunit

the way you guys want to ditch Israel.. Check your source for those pics.. Sniffles brought those out months ago.. I debunked them then.. Most of the pics were used years ago again in an attempt to sway you guys that Israel is the bad guy.. When an independent group attempted to prove the "attrocities" committed by Israel somehow they could not produce the bodys.. I wonder why? They did however find the graves where children's body's were dug up.. Why would they do that?

You guys are quick to call Israel the agressor the mass murderer.. Show me were Israel have strapped just one semtex block on a child and sent them to School.. Go ahead I will await those pics and coroboration.

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Since when is it acceptable for ANYONE to kill children? Sick.

and to do so INTENTIONALLY is the worst sin one can commit.

In war civilians do get killed... but to intentionally target civilians and to use Children to carry bombs onto School buses and restaurants is beyond any kind of justification. You have to stand up and defend yourself and your Country when faced with such monsters.

and yes I know we targeted Civilians in WWI & II.. Different times and Wars.. and Civilians where targeted by the Germans and Japan first..

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Children represent all that is promising about mankind. They are the only link to innocence and purity that we have. It goes without saying that anyone that could callously extinguish that promise - that innocence - can have no point of reference for peace. If you can kill a child, then how in the hell can we expect you to honor a treaty of any kind.

"The invariable mark of wisdom is the ability to see the miraculous in the common." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

waging war while using children and civilians as cover acceptable? Can you imagine the Israelis doing THAT?!? The Israelis are the victims of ruthless, amoral and subhuman war criminals. Hamas and Hezbollah butchers deliberately set up their rocket launchers on top of schools, hospitals and mosques. They aim and fire these weapons, not at the IDF, but into the population centers inside Israel. And your moral outrage is reserved for the Israelis..? Sadly, this is all too common a response from liberals.

To eliminate those who purposefully put their own civilians and children in harm's way to kill your civilians and children is not wrong, and to do so, there will be innocents who will be killed. You are aware that your outrage plays directly into Israel's enemies' plans, aren't you? For them, this is a propaganda war, not one of attrition. They know that Israel would mop up the floor with 'em in a fair fight, so they use the deaths of their own innocents as a public perception club to beat Israel with. How cynical is that, and how little regard do they have for the lives of their own people?

War is ugly, but it is necessary to protect innocent people from those who would seek their destruction. Hell, the enemies of Israel hate them so much that only their eradication will satisfy the twisted xenophobic animals who send their brainwashed young people to fire rockets and set off suicide bombs to kill and maim as many Israelis as possible.

Grieve for the dead, that shows a compassionate heart. Just remember that good people sometimes have to do bad things to protect their loved ones.

To quote Alan Dershowitz: "If Israel's military enemies- Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and other terrorist groups and nations- were to lay down their arms, stop firing rockets, stop sending suicide bombers, and stop threatening to wipe Israel off the map, there would be peace.

If Israel were to lay down its arms, there would be genocide."

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

"And your moral outrage is reserved for Israelis..? Sadly this is all too common a response from liberals."

Where in my post did you infer that my moral outrage is for Israel? I do have to give a little chuckle, that is the first time I have been called a liberal on these blogs...and I've been called many things.

"She who obtains has little. She who scatters has much." - Lao Tzo

your comment as a criticism of Israel's defense of her population. That seems to be the overall tone when people comment on this subject. The liberal thing was a sweeping generalization of the support that they tend to show toward the Palestinian butchers and the disdain they seem to have for Israel.

Pay no attention... Almost anyone is to the left of me when it comes to national security and foreign policy. To say that I'm hawkish is an understatement.

"We don't need to vote the Democrats out of office and replace them with Republicans, and we don't need to vote the Republicans out of office and replace them with Democrats. We need to vote them all out and replace them with better people.

It's amazing how much clout the voting bloc of Cubans in parts of Florida has wielded over time and how few have ever dared challenge it when it comes to getting enlightened on how best to deal with Cuba.

Another point: the heart of neo-cons and their foreign policy relies way too much on the old adage of "an enemy of my enemy is my friend." This inevitably leads to supporting brutal, disgusting regimes that all later fall from power and leave the citizens hating the US for supporting the scum that they just overthrew. Then you have the situations where we arm and support Iraq since they were fighting Iran only to have to soon after step in and have a war with them twice recently. Never mind about everything done for Bin Laden and the fighters in Afghanistan(now widely-known primarily as terrorists)solely because they were battling against the Russians.

When the US pursues a very active foreign policy of arming to the teeth whichever side is "ok" with the US at that particular moment and heavily supporting them financially, it creates a huge mess down the road when the other side takes control and has to be dealt with.

All the talk about libertarianism suddenly goes out the window with a good chunk of conservatives because they don't favor the LP's stance on foreign policy being one of mostly isolationism and not getting involved internally with other countries' affairs.

I was living there during the Cuban Missle Crisis,and also living there when former President Carter extended an invitation to the cubans to come to America. Fidel, being the smart and crafty person he was, used this opportunity to empty his mental instutions, jails and and other undesirables and dump them on us. Carter stood still and let this happen. South Florida was changed forever. You, for all intents and purposes, are living in a foreign country if you reside in South Florida. All kinds of aid was given to anyone coming over, i.e., homes at 1/2% interest, scholarships for cuban students, social security benefits for older people who never paid into system and on and on. The cuban population soon learned they could get what they wanted by staging protests, and in some cases bombing restaurants etc, if people disagreed with them. Right now almost every office at the city level is held by a cuban. They want to live in the United States and have all the benefits of American citizens but do not want the embargo lifted even tho' many still have families there. It is a ridiculous and sad situation. This is why I left there, returning once, finding it even worse and leaving for good. I have long resented that I was made to feel an intruder in my own hometown.

And work on our government and what is best for the US people for a change. We have spent a fortune in other countries. It's time to help our own.

Had the US engaged Cuba decades ago, the communist government would have been overwhelmed by the superiority of the capitalist system.

If one visits these two communist countries - the truth of the above statement will be evident. China is still 'communist' but the days of the commune are long gone. The Chinese Olympics showed that a combination of communism and capitalism can produce a strong country. Democracy is still the governing system that includes the rights of individuals - but democracy must be implemented with integrity and without greed. That, IMO, is a tall order for most humans today.

I don't think the Olympics in Bejing had much of anything to do with some kind of melding of communism and capitalism, besides companies that operate in capitalist countries paying a communist government big bucks for sponsorships and China itself being able to spend and do whatever they felt like on the Olympics since any kind of opposition or negative feedback is squashed in the country by a heavily-authoritarian and repressive regime.

China isn't attempting to implement any forms of democracy and I don't know where you got that idea from. They have moved some towards "market-based" and capitalistic elements in their economy, but that has nothing at all do with democracy. Capitalism and democracy can be mutually exclusive just like quite a few countries are socialist and while also operating under a form of democracy.

Sorry you misunderstood. Never said democracy and capitalism were existing side by side in China! Far from it. Although I enjoyed the scenery and witnessed the 'modernization' since China has been 'trading' with the US - it is a very CONTROLLED country. I never saw 'democracy' in China. Elitism is evident. Competition is evident among the 'haves'. People follow the 'rules' - or else.

ruling elite benefit from it.
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that statement could be attributed to this country as well!

I believe that China has a much smaller but more powerful ruling elite which could take that country on another search for it's "true self". Kind of like Mao and his little red book exercise.

I kind of don't think that could or would happen here or....wait a minute....OMG YIKES; maybe it already has. Does the slogan "Yes We Can" mean something other than chant that we heard by those poor peolpe that were hypnotized. Someone, please say it ain't so!!!!!
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Someone, please say it ain't so!!!!!

It ain't so.

It's not easy being the carbonunit

. . .and never will be! (and you all, conservative, liberal, libertarian - know that!)

that was hijacked off of Sweden and turned up off of West Africa. It was "lost" for a while. Much speculation about how it was carrying missiles to Iran and that the Mossad intercepted it.

Now today, it was revealed that the Israeli PM, Netanyahu, had paid a secret visit to Russian via a private jet last month and handed the Kremlin a list of freelancing Russian scientists that are helping Iran build a bomb. Very interesting. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Israel doesn't take some sort preemptive action soon.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.