Objections to healthcare changes not very rational

Tue, 09/15/2009 - 3:47pm
By: The Citizen

I write this article with great trepidation because I know that I can’t influence the willfully stupid, the profoundly ignorant, the white trash that mistrust a president merely because he is black, and Republicans who detest any proposal put forth by a Democrat. I am compelled to write this article because our nation is at a crossroads: we can regain our superior status in the world or become a third-rate power within the next 20 years.
You know that we as a nation are in trouble when the President of the United States wishes to tells students that they should stay in school, support the President, and become educated and is met with fear, scorn and hatred.
I must ask the question: Why are white Americans so afraid of a highly intelligent, educated, accomplished, and black First Family? After all, Michelle and Barrack Obama epitomize how hard work and a good education can make a difference in the lives of average Americans.
We as Americans are lied to on a daily basis by folks who have their interests foremost instead of ours. The current healthcare debate is a poignant example of this.
All of us know somebody who has been denied care because of a precondition, lapse of insurance, an insurance company that refuses to pay, etc. Folks in the medical community have known for many years that the healthcare system is near collapse. But, the rest of us are incredibly unaware of this eventual calamity. So, why is there so much fear and resistance against an essential overall reform of the healthcare system?
Just money for the few. Powerful folks stand to lose lots of money if healthcare is reformed and costs are reduced. This is why there are currently 3,000 lobbyists on Capitol Hill pressuring your legislators to keep things as they are.
Conservatives oppose illegal aliens receiving healthcare at the expense of the rest of us. This is one of their reasons against healthcare reform. Do the math (if you can add, multiply, and do percentages), the costs of illegal aliens is about 2 percent of total healthcare, if they are included.
So that is not the deciding factor; profits by drug companies, healthcare providers are the reasons why healthcare reform is so hotly contested.
Conservatives also oppose a government-run health plan, but don’t complain about Medicare, Medicaid, VA medical centers, Social Security, etc.
So what are the reasons for their objections? Well, not too many rational ones. Governmental programs work well when set up properly; so why don’t conservatives help with the work?
Well, it is not their plan, so they must oppose it. Notice they haven’t offered a viable alternative to the current healthcare reform, except to keep things as they are. That is no solution, for the healthcare system is near collapse.
As a scientist, I am acutely aware of our decline as a nation in science and technology. President George Bush Senior abandoned the Super Collider Project in Houston, Texas, (after we spent $2 billion) and made our nation a second-rate player in high energy physics. All major research in that area is now performed in Europe at CERN, an international consortium of nations. All young particle physicists in America are now forced to move to CERN to do their graduate research.
When the NASA shuttle fleet is disbanded in a couple of years, America will need to rely on the Russians for launch vehicles to space. How embarrassing is that?
In biology, because of President George W. Bush’s silliness with stem cell research, the United States lags behind every other advanced nation in research on cures for major diseases. How unfortunate that personal bias and ignorance would deprive Americans of advances in medicine.
Note that Obama, a well-educated person, is acutely aware of the need for scientific and technological advancement to keep America secure. Unlike his predecessor, Obama relies on independent panels of experts to specify science goals and ethical restraints instead of personal foibles.
P.S. In numerous articles a while back, I claimed that Creationism is a mere mythology with no scientific basis, and that evolution is a well-established science that correctly describes the biological world. Recently, the Vatican published on its website that evolution is correct and that the account of creation in Genesis is to be taken as religion, not science!
Peter Duran
Fayetteville, Ga.

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ionizd's picture
Submitted by ionizd on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 6:29pm.

periphery of this growing debate for awhile now, just observing, and I'm not happy with what I see. The people are speaking, and they are speaking loudly. An estimated 1.5 million people showed up in Washington, D.C for a rally that began as a growing anti-(excessive)taxation sentiment. While the rally was essentially about taxation, the Democrat-sponsored healthcare reform bill was prime pickings for the protesters, many of whom had never become involved in protests or marches before. That number puts to shame the so-called, "Million Man March" that professional protest organizers and lifelong community organizers put together. The power elites in Washington and their propaganda arm in the main stream media responded by ignoring them, dismissing them or heaping them with derision and worse.
Consider this; it's very easy to call into question the motivation of someone who supports political action that you don't like. I myself, a generally reasonable and thoughtful individual by most standards, tend to get frustrated when I just can't sway someone who disagrees with me to even acknowledge that I might be right about the issue. I use unflattering buzzwords like "socialism" and "socialist" in my debates. I do accuse many on the left of selfishness, laziness and short-sightedness. I definitely see a dearth of common sense.
I don't accuse them of wrongdoing due to lucrative associations or any desire to do harm to another through malfeasance. Those sentiments are reserved for the people making the policies, and even then, rarely.
Still, those on the left routinely accuse me, in person and through various forms of media, of selfish disregard for the health and well being of my fellow Americans, bigotry, stupidity, collusion with unscrupulous captains of industry, and mindless devotion to right-wing political organizations. All of those accusations have been made at one time or another because I simply do not agree with them... and I'm getting kind of tired of it.
I work hard and I've made some good decisions. That means that I can supply my family and myself with healthcare insurance. Nothing has been handed to me. As far as I know, the health industry doesn't arbitrarily decide who gets the "good" care and who doesn't. If I fail to pay my premiums, I lose my coverage. That may well happen anyway, though, because the legislation is written to move as many people who currently have coverage onto the government option, and I don't want any part of it. I know what a bunch of hucksters we are dealing with here, and I remember the string of broken promises from our elected officials even if you do not. They do not care about you. They think you are inept and unsophisticated, so much so that they will force their will upon you at every opportunity, all in the name of the greater good. I will not trade one evil that I can avoid for one that I cannot- I can avoid poverty, thank goodness for the land of opportunity, by working hard and saving what little is left to me after the already-punitive taxes are taken from me. As long as I have some money, I will do the responsible thing and use it for the right things and sacrifice what I want for what I need. How many of those whining about lack of health care coverage pay for cable or satellite programming, cell phones with unlimited texting, a big car payment for a flashy car, etc...
What I can't do is avoid the government health care police (which, according to the legislation, is apparently the IRS.)or the even more excessive taxes imposed on me by the government that is largely responsible for the mess in the first place. I won't be able to stop some bureaucrat from making decisions about my family's healthcare in my stead.
Stop insulting and open your ears and minds. Nothing is free, and especially nothing the government promises. This legislation is nothing more than a government power-grab that the Democrats are, and have been for a long time, slavering over.
Fix the parts that need fixing. Help the people that do need help and can be helped. Leave me and my paycheck alone.
"All I ask for is a little common sense. Apparently that's too much to ask for."

ionizd's picture
Submitted by ionizd on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 10:55pm.

legitimizing Bonkers' moronic ramblings by replying directly to him, but since it is the nature of hard core ideologues to lie about crowd sizes and other reports to attempt to discredit their opponents rather than challenge the veracity of their arguments, I'll supply some sources.



Most of the rest of the stories are trash. You can watch the YouTube time lapse video for yourselves and see that 70,000 attendee figure is clearly a lowball estimate:


"All I ask for is a little common sense. Apparently that's too much to ask for."

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 1:08am.

I just want to say that I would have liked to have been a tea vendor at that event - could have made a fortune. Just imagine the revenue an event like that brings to local business owners - seems like a good time to install pay toilets. Remember those?

Submitted by Bonkers on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 4:06am.

I don't like bashing anyone but you continue to invite it!

"Tea Vendor." How on earth would you have had enough supplies there for one day and enough help to cover the crowd in order to make a fortune? Would you have cleaned up the garbage after? WOW--business sense. Anyway that bunch were tailgaters and brown-baggers!
Pay toilets are UnAmerican.
That is like saying carry a quarter or half-buck all of the time in case you have an accident---but don't spend it on something to eat if you are famished!

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 9:57am.

Oh, Bonkers....(sigh), I do not enjoy condescending to anyone, especially someone considered my elder, but you seem to need it! You do know what humor is, don't you? You should, because I'd venture a guess that people laugh at you often.

I was being facetious.

Facetious - adj. - witty, humorous, jocose, sprightly

Have a wonderful day you dear old man.

Submitted by Bonkers on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 10:29am.

We are not even on the same thought wave!
Why say something so foreign about a one-day affair and then deny it?

Dreaming about people coming to buy is useless. There must be a detailed plan to get it done. And enough backing to persevere long enough. Otherwise don't do it.

The only people allowed to condescend are those who are succeeding at what they do and really have something to pass on if only others not so fortunate will listen.

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 11:25am.

Dear, sweet, Bonkers...why do you think I said "tea" vendor? BECAUSE...IT...WAS...FUNNY!

Oh, and the pay toilets - THAT...WAS...FUNNY...TOO! We're paying for crap anyway.

You just keep being that dear, thoughtful, insightful, funny old man that you've always been. Oh, how you do tug on my heart strings.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 11:42am.

The problem is Bunk will never know he just got slapped.. but the rest of us do.. Well played..Cool

The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism.
But, under the name of “Liberalism” “they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened” Norman Thomas US Candidate for President

Submitted by Bonkers on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 1:03pm.

You are about as funny as she is.

Submitted by halfdollarandlost on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 1:32pm.

But Daddy, he is funny.

Submitted by Bonkers on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 8:12pm.

There was 70,000 in D.C., not a million and a half.

And, yes all people with big old cars, shiny, and with cell phones, and good looking clothes, do not pay for their health care----not a one of them! RIGHT!

suggarfoot's picture
Submitted by suggarfoot on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 2:56pm.

"Powerful folks stand to lose lots of money if health care is reformed and costs are reduced. This is why there are currently 3,000 lobbyists on Capitol Hill pressuring your legislators to keep things as they are."

That is so true, ...3,000..three thousand? lobbyists? You can bet they are about to loose really big money if this is over hauled to bring that many vultures out to try to dilute your vote!

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 2:13pm.

Your ascertions are silly at best and at worse show a supreme ignorance outside of the party lines. You start your little missive as everyone who disagrees with Obama is a Rascist, Stupid and White Trash.. You sir exhibit every attitude described therein. You and Malcom X would get along just fine.

Case in point:

"Note that Obama, a well-educated person, is acutely aware of the need for scientific and technological advancement to keep America secure. Unlike his predecessor, Obama relies on independent panels of experts to specify science goals and ethical restraints instead of personal foibles."

Just two questions.. How many terrorist attacks have we suffered through since Sept 11, 2001?

When did it become policy to allow Communist, Ultra Black Nationalist, Eugenic Radicals and others in these so-called independent panels?

The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism.
But, under the name of “Liberalism” “they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened” Norman Thomas US Canidate for President

Submitted by Davids mom on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 2:30pm.

How many terrorist attacks have we suffered through since Sept 11, 2001?

Why did we have to suffer that attack when intelligence substantiated that there were Saudi's in our country taking flying lessons - without bothering to learn how to land?

We are in such an economic crisis now - that to drag out questions about our presence in Iraq accomplishes nothing but delaying our recovery. History will not be as cruel to George W Bush as some imagine. . . in fact in many areas, once we have recovered, his contribution to the cure of HIV and poverty in Africa will be noted. But for the 3000 Americans who suffered on 9/11 - the jury is still out as to the necessity for that 'slip' in intelligence. (and I don't think George Bush is at fault there.)

Submitted by Robert Jensen on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 9:55am.

Many of the poster's remarks have some validity but others miss the point. The health care reform debate has been hijacked by those who already are insured and who have been enjoying a reasonable degree of quality medical care for many years. Those who've never been insured, who have always paid out of pocket, and who have postponed or done without medical attention when they've needed it are no longer even being discussed. In fact, the Obama Administration's own emails began calling health care reform "health insurance reform" a few weeks ago, now all but ignoring the strong voices who have been leading the fight for health care reform simply because they are not already insured. The insured, up until recently all but silent on the subject, are now ready to make their opinions heard and, of course, think they should be leading the discussion. The President, himself, a multimillionaire who has excellent health care, has used the pathetic stereotype of the uninsured "running to emergency rooms" whenever they develop a problem. It is scandalous! He claimed in front of the nation that the insured are subsidizing the uninsured. Nothing could be further from the truth: It is the uninsured who subsidize the insured by paying the full price for medical care, often grossly inflated, rather than the much reduced price the insured are used to being charged because of their group rates. There are good reasons not to buy health insurance, just as their were reasons not to insure a car you seldom drove before mandatory auto insurance went into effect. Often, it is simply not cost effective. If you stay reasonably healthy, a requirement if you are uninsured, then paying several hundred dollars a month for health insurance when you are self-employed or unemployed is simply not in the cards. It's a luxury, just like all the other luxuries your average professional takes for granted (like getting into a house for next to nothing instead of having to wait to buy it until you can actually afford it). Why should tough, healthy, independent people who watch their diets, get plenty of exercise, and have good genes, have to support overweight smokers who are constantly grabbing for their next "Big Gulp" or overpaid yuppies who drink too much wine and can't do anything for themselves other than go to work and sit at their desks in front of their computers all day long? Yet that is precisely what the President's version of health care reform is currently emphasizing. Regulate the industry, instead. Don't allow doctors to double and triple bill their patients through one scam or another for routine care. Don't allow hospitals to bankrupt patients. Crack down on the drug companies and the insurance giants. Regulation is the answer, not legislating a bloated plan that puts people in jail for not being able to afford health insurance, the very people the entire debate was began to help. Not everyone will want to give all sorts of personal info to some bureaucrat just to get their mandatory insurance subsidized. Thus, they shouldn't have to buy insurance at all if that is their choice. The prices they must pay to pay for it out of pocket are what need to be addressed. Health insurance should be scaled back to address what it was originally intended to address, a safety net against catastrophic health care costs. The real scandal is how the insurers and the providers have manipulated the situation so that health insurance is now required for the simplest visit to the bones. The government is complicit in this ripoff and look to be making things even worse. It's all a plot to strip us of whatever freedoms to make our own choices and live our own lives that we have left. It's got nothing to do with racism, even though I agree that Obama has been facing a lot of that.

suggarfoot's picture
Submitted by suggarfoot on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 12:25pm.

no matter what you call it...that is what it boils down to...Regulate the industry.

You hit on several points that were good, but you and a lot of others are missing the main one.

The people who are fighting it the most..throwing up every evil thing they can to scare you....are the very ones you just mentioned!

The health insurance companies don't want any change. They are making a bundle, thank you very much. Drug companies as well. Did you know people fly to other countries to buy their medicines? They are cheaper there! Did you know I have health insurance, and so do my friends...did you know those same friends fly to Costa Rica for dental and health care...Why? because the final tab here ...with insurance...will still bite you in the a$$$$$!

Our system is broken. It need fixing...

Yes the emergency rooms are a joke, I've gotten up n left the few times I've been there.

You make pay full price, and I may pay less cause I've got insurance, but there are others that pay ...nothing..trust me.

And after you pay through the nose for insurance...it is an accepted practice...they do EVERYTHING they can to get out of paying you!

It doesn't matter if it is health care insurance, car insurance, home/property insurance..etc....if they can beat you out of it...they will!

Again...the system is broke and it must be fixed.

Submitted by Bonkers on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 12:59pm.

Well in some of these thing I agree, but if you were able a few times to get up and leave an ER due to waiting: maybe you weren't too sick and didn't need to cost us anything? Is that maybe why they check on you?

By the way, always "get up" first before you leave anywhere.

suggarfoot's picture
Submitted by suggarfoot on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 1:19pm.

as I said, I've always had health insurance. The last time I was at the ER, my child was a todler. We had been at Yellow River Game preserve and I started having an allegic reatiion to something I had touched, maybe a deer..? I stopped at a pharmacy n the druggist gave me a hugh dose of benadrill n told me to drive to an emergency room as fast as I could. By the time I got there one eye was closed the other one almost. I was having a lot to trouble breathing. After the benadrill started kicking in, I got better. The nurse said it could be hours n I had a todler that was being exposed to God knows what in that waiting room. After a little while, I was ok and left. I didn't need anyone to tell me what had happened. That druggist probably saved my life.

mapleleaf's picture
Submitted by mapleleaf on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 11:54am.

I sympathize with the position of people who make personal efforts to stay healthy, by refraining from unhealthy practices such as smoking, drinking to excess, overeating or loading up on junk food, and by engaging in healthy practices such as joining exercise classes, actively engaging in sports and walking extensively.

Just think, however, that just one accident, possibly even caused by someone else, could cause a brain injury requiring treatment for a lifetime. It is easy to fall from a bike, or even to break a leg while skiing. Being active has its dangers too.

Some people with health problems have brought their problems upon themselves. But others have not. If health care reform provides incentives for people (including the couch potatoes) to get active, and if it provides preventive care, that may be of considerable benefit to society as a whole. If, for instance, Social Security disability payments go down because of the greater availability of health care, there is a savings right there.

Opposing the whole idea of health care reform because of the one pet peeve a person may have is not sensible. When we vote in elections, our choice is always between very imperfect candidates. There’s always at least one reason not to vote for someone, and if all we see is the negative, we’ll never be able to vote for anyone.

So let’s be reasonable about this. We may start with an imperfect plan at the beginning, but it’ll be possible to refine it as we go along. Perfect is the enemy of the good.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 1:27pm.

So let’s be reasonable about this. We may start with an imperfect plan at the beginning, but it’ll be possible to refine it as we go along.

Social Security was messed up in the beginning. After 50 years or so look how "refined" it is now. Works for me!!!! How about you???

And how bout that postal service? If we could all run as efficiently and with out budget as the postal service. We've got it refined in excellence. Hey.... when it 'absolutely, positively has to be there' I always choose the US Postal Service. Works for me!!! How about you???

Want more government success stories??? Nah..not needed. Let's just slap this gumament plan in place and let congress "refine" it in years to come. Works for me!!! How about you???

Obama.... The Bernie Madoff Of Washington

suggarfoot's picture
Submitted by suggarfoot on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 1:41pm.

It is people like you, I would like to see helped. People with small companies get screwed on health care premiums. My family still has a company back home. I know what you go through. I just don't see it like you do.

I see a system broke. If someone is willing to even try to fix it..I will listen.

As far as SS, yes it has problems, but I'm glad it is there. There has to be something to keep people from falling through the cracks.

One of the reasons that it is broken too, is the abuse that has been done to it. There has been money 'borrowed' from it, for other projects.

People who shouldn't get it..Octomom? have drawn disability, and hard working, very deserving people, have been turned down.

It too needs to be fixed. It shouldn't be abused, nor should the people who have paid into it all these years.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 1:56pm.

Is that the government doesn't fix the programs. They manipulate them and often times abuse them. Social Security in it's purist form as intended by it's creator would benefit those who contributed to it over the years in a modestly rewarding manner had it not been turned into a welfare program. Opt me out of it please....where can I sign?

I don't want to see our incompetent gumament do what it has done to other gumament programs such as it has done to SS.

Thanks for the concerns on small biz medical concerns. I manage at this point. How many do or don't......I don't know.

It too needs to be fixed. It shouldn't be abused, nor should the people who have paid into it all these years.

I fear we will say the same about Obama/Pelosi-Care in the near future.

Obama.... The Bernie Madoff Of Washington

suggarfoot's picture
Submitted by suggarfoot on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 2:35pm.

I'm not trying to think of this as Obama, Dem, or Rep, I'm trying to think of this as the beginning of doing something for the people who deserve it.

It can be turned around, it can be fixed. We just need some honest politicians in there to push.

Do you remember the GI bill? It use to be the american soldier was given very little for what he did for us. Congressman Sonny Montgomery, was a hawk, he believed in Viet Nam. Sonny saw those boys come home and the way they were treated and he spent the next 30 years of his life trying to make amends. Sonny took the GI bill and reworked it so much, it is now called the Montgomery GI bill. He fixed many things and got VETs benifits they never had before. That is one program that someone cared enough and cleaned up.

I believe that can be done with some of this other. We just have to demand honesty from our politicans, and when we see we have a clunker...throw him out..NOW!

Sonny was a relative, a person who tried to make things better because it was the right thing to do.


suggarfoot's picture
Submitted by suggarfoot on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 12:07pm.

the reason a lot are against health care reform is...they are part of the group making a bundle off it. Insurance companies...look at what they pay their top dogs! I don't think of it as the government getting into our private lives. I think of it as what it is. The governemnt has called it 'free interprise', I call it organized rape of the the masses.

In France, they have very good health care but it doesn't cost as much as here. Why? Maybe they don't have as much graft and coruption as here.

The bottom line is everyone has been given the green light to feed off the public. The public just can't support all this legal greed any more. There needs to be laws and penalities against those who are taking advantage of the helpless. That is not too much government control! That is just plain old laws to protect us. They have tried the no hands on 'free interprise' and look where we are! We are broke!

Submitted by Bonkers on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 12:54pm.

Well of course Health Insurance companies, Pharmaceutical companies,
Hospital Corporations, health aid companies, wheel chair companies, nursing groups, most doctor groups, (not the AMA as such), and all those who work for any of these, are against much change.

Nothing new about that attitude.

AIG employees sure hated to see them go broke. Enron, etc.

The health industry (30% of our economy--not 20% as quoted) is dependent upon the industry. If we do nothing it will be 50% within 10-15 years.

That is no way to run a country!

suggarfoot's picture
Submitted by suggarfoot on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 1:28pm.

I'm serious about people going to Costa Rica. That just proves, even with insurance, the cost of health care is just too much.

I feel for the people who have no insurance. It is wrong when people suffer and others get rich off of it.

Any kind of reform, the ones getting rich off it are gonna fight it tooth and nail.

Every scare tactic they can pull, they will.

Submitted by PTC Observer on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 8:33am.

I am not afraid of Mr. Obama because he is a black man. I am afraid of him because of his policies. He advocates big government and less freedom of action for the individual. He advocates that solutions can be found in government better than it can be found in the individual creativity of the American people.

There is not one government program that works well, not one. And the solution to this is more and more money stolen from hard working citizens through taxation.

Mr. Obama is my President but he does not represent my views, therefore I disagree with him. It is not racial, but it seems that there are those like you that believe that any disagreement with a President that happens to be black must have its roots in racial discrimination.

I do discriminate, I admit it. I discriminate based on ideas. I discriminate on how people act and not by what they say. If Mr. Obama wants to win my vote, he will have to change his philosophy; which I am sure he will not do. Therefore, I will campaign and vote against him and others like him; black, white, yellow, or brown. Mr. Obama’s views are counter to what I hold dear, maximization of individual freedom through minimal government.

You sir, need to look within yourself to determine if you are the one that has a problem with race.

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