The People’s Republic of San Diego County

Father David Epps's picture

Welcome to the People’s Republic of San Diego County.

According to an article on HolyCoast.com, “A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold Bible studies in their home.”

Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife. Broyles said, “The county asked, ‘Do you have a regular meeting in your home?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Do you say amen?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Do you pray?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Do you say praise the Lord?’ ‘Yes.’”

The county employee notified the couple that the small Bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of county regulations, according to Broyles.

Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning of “unlawful use of land” and told them to “stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit” — a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.

“For churches and religious assemblies, there’s big parking concerns, there’s environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this Bible study is certainly misplaced,” said Broyles.

“If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?” said Broyles.

What about, “This is America and not the former Soviet Union, North Korea, or China”?

Perhaps the county officials are unfamiliar with the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights that says:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

Several years ago, I held a Bible study in my home. We met, sang some songs, studied the scriptures, prayed for each other, had refreshments, and went home. I received a phone call one day from someone who said that they were going to try to get the study stopped.

While I am easy to get along with, that threat was not one I was about to take gracefully. I informed the caller that any such attempt would result in a federal civil rights lawsuit and that I would seek punitive damages against anyone who was a party to attempting to deny me my civil rights under the First Amendment.

That pretty much ended it. It was not a bluff — I was prepared to mortgage my home, if need be, to crush that type of attempted intimidation.

What is it with people these days? I do not have a right to tell my neighbor who he can have in his home or what they can do during the time they are there. Otherwise, the only football parties that would be allowed would be those supporting the University of Tennessee!

There is no constitutional guarantee to have a backyard barbecue but there is a constitutional protection for the free expression of religion.

Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down several days later from their enforcement. “No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.

Chandra Wallar, the county’s general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Bible study doesn’t need a permit after all. But only after hundreds of complains were received.

Still, we live in a different times. The Constitution is, more and more, what those in power say it is.

Will we ever come to a time when Christians cannot meet freely in private homes and discuss their faith? The answer, for now, is, “Yes, it is very possible.” At least if you live in San Diego County.

[Father David Epps is the founding pastor of Christ the King Church, 4881 Hwy. 34 E., Sharpsburg, GA 30277, between Peachtree City and Newnan. Services are held Sundays at 8:30 and 10 a.m. He serves as a bishop to the Diocese of the Mid-South and is also the mission pastor of Christ the King Church in Champaign, IL. He may be contacted at frepps@ctkcec.org.]

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Submitted by MacTheKnife on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 6:31am.

The first amendment to the US Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I realize the Constitution is rapidly becoming passe' in light of our new found fascination with socialism and rewriting laws (like the bankruptcy laws)that clearly violate our constitutional rights, but you may want to start with the first amendment when you argue for or against some of the facts of this case.

Any attempt to make this a religious argument is ignorant in every sense of the word and irrelevant to our Constitutional transgressions.

Some of the liberals here are missing what even the ACLU recognizes: If a freedom or liberty can be taken form one group it can be taken from all groups.

Ticket the illegally parked cars that are blocking driveways. End of story.

mapleleaf's picture
Submitted by mapleleaf on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 6:42am.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It does not say anywhere they want, does it?


Submitted by MacTheKnife on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 8:53am.

Your statement solidifies that this indeed can see this is a First Amendment issue. Seems I heard that somewhere before.

I will attempt to explain this case from a legal standpoint. (I am NOT a practicing lawyer.)

If any other lawyers care to chime in, by all means feel free.

It is the obligation of the state to prove that an undue burden has been placed on the general populace that outweighs the power weight and precedence of the US constitution (specifically the first amendment)and the freedom and liberty it provides for the defendant. Other suitable (lessor) remedies must have been exhausted.

This is not a religious argument. It can indeed become one and if they choose that battleground or it morphs in to that so be it. But, in my opinion, that is the weakest angle of the three areas I would consider pursuing (again IMHO). In this particular case, freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom to assemble are all in play (in my opinion). The later being the strongest argument against the order to "disassemble" the group. I would save the religious and free speech issues in the event that you need a second bite at the apple.

That being said assembly can indeed be regulated and monitored. Assembly is typically legal only when it is not violating the civil rights of others, does not endanger the public and in fact is legally regulated locally by ordinances and permits (many of which by the way are found to be unconstitutional when challenged mainly because the local governments adopt their own policy without seeking the expertise of a constitutional law expert).

If I were the lawyer for this group, I would advise that they secure the proper permit (zoning issues should determine the specific type of licensing this group should pursue)to assemble and if denied - ask for a reason IN WRITING for the basis of denial. The reason they receive for denial will determine the angle of attack/next step.

After offering to remedy the reason for denial if applicable (i.e.; showing how through car pooling you will have a number of cars below the maximum permitted)but not giving up the intention to have my first amendment rights enforced I would contact a lawyer with expertise in zoning, ordinances or a strong background in the constitution (any former city lawyer would be a good start).

That being said, if this church/group would obtain the proper legal status (I suggest a dba or an llc initially), a Tax Id, insurance, and a Bank Account they could help to slam the door in the face of this problem quite quickly. Asking people to secure the proper permit to assemble is not an undue burden.

(On the other hand if I were the city attorney: Enforcing traffic laws does not interfere with the right to assemble and is a simple way for the city to nudge the group in to doing the 'neighborly thing'.)

And as for the group: Failing to follow my advice down corporation trail could indeed be fatal. While they should indeed win the battle to assemble the homeowner could lose everything in an uncovered insurance claim or lawsuit from some of their 'guests'.

Should this problem not be resolved through permits or depending on the reason for denial of permits (i.e. the allegation that they cannot gather and pray) I would certainly SUE SUE SUE.

This a career case for a lawyer and I feel certain several have already called on this group. Properly funded this case could very well end up in the Supreme Court.

I have already said more than I should have about this case. I would imagine that some of the comments reported as factual are really 'exaggerated' to say the least. Otherwise, this may be the dumbest police department, solicitor and city government in America.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 7:31am.

What you wrote..
WOW.. what abridged rights are you for...?

So you are saying if the County says you can have a BBQ, A Poker Party, a Birthday party.. but you can't have a RELIGOUS party.. You are OK with that?

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


Submitted by boo boo on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 7:18am.

I guess that is what I was trying to say. All my wasted words and all I needed to say was, does not say "anywhere they want". Whew, glad that is cleared up. Have a nice day..

Submitted by Spyglass on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 8:37am.

up regularly at my house, with most or all of them driving cars, I could see a problem for my neighbors. Fact is, it wouldn't be very neighborly of me to have meetings like this. This is exactly why many Sunday School classes rotate Bible Studies between members, and keep the meetings small. Be kind to your neighbor, and you won't have a problem.

Submitted by Bonkers on Thu, 06/04/2009 - 8:23pm.

Slavery was once tolerated by the Constitution. So was a definition of who was a voter and who was not, women for instance.

I think the problem in San Diego was not what happened in those gatherings but where it was happening.
It would be uncomfortable for me if I was a Jew for Nazi sympathizers who were good Lutherans, held shouting and singing meetings next door to me every week, or more often.

That is why we have zoning regulations in urban settings. Nothing unconstitutional about that.

Submitted by boo boo on Fri, 06/05/2009 - 1:10am.

Pastor Jones in San Diego had 15 or so people come to dinner and bible study every week for quite sometime. That was not the problem. Come to find out all of those 15 people drove to his house and parking was a problem. One of the dinner guests hit someones car and that person is the one that complained after he called the police to complain of his car being hit. Most likely the police took note of the parking problem and notified the zoning department about a business or Church going on at that address. The neighbors didn't complain according to the News person covering the story.

Zoning is in place for a reason. We have many different Zoning codes in Fayette Co., just like San Diego county does, I imagine. If I live in a residential area I sure don't want a business, church, store, anything that is going to disturb my peace where I live. Cars coming and going at all times of the day or night is not something you want in a residential area. Just think what would happen if we didn't have zoning laws. People would be at war with each other in no time at all. Ignorance of the laws are not an excuse. If there is a parking problem in this pastors neighborhood then they shouldn't hold bible studies at their home...and then they won't have to get a permit for a church. It is very easy to rent places, churches/businesses do it all the time. If there was not a problem with parking and the neighbors didn't care then I would say have at it. You were just having your usual dinner party.

If I was one of those neighbors, I would have been making my complaint every week, they would be disturbing my peaceful neighborhood besides taking up all the parking spaces for my relatives or friends that stopped by. Just because they think they are a church doesn't mean they don't have to follow the laws. Doesn't God have rules you have to follow, well this is one made by the government for the well being of all the people. There are no exceptions unless you change the laws/rules.

Oh and Bonkers glad to see you back we all missed you.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 7:23am.

Tolerant left ??? Yeah RIGHT... If this was a meeting of CODE PINK or Rainbow World, ELF or ALF you guys would be happy to have hosted the weekly meetings.. How about a little Muslim action... Would you complain then...
Because this was a "Christian" group you people wet your pants and get all scared and want to complain.. GUESS WHAT THE COUNTY NOT ONLY FOLDED THEY ISSUED AN APOLIGY...
Why are you guys so worried about the 10 commandments?? Afraid you can't live up to something so simple??? hmmmmmm

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 9:00am.

SL. can't speak for Bonkers though. Mother Nature has been taking care of all of us for a very long time. She has given us a wonderful cool Spring, with lots of rain, with hopefully not too hot of a Summer to come. Yep, truly an awesome time to be living...

It wasn't about the Church group meeting at his house in San Diago...it was a PARKING PROBLEM. They are not being persecuted because of their religion SL. They should have kept their mouths shut and said they were having a dinner party. But even so if there was not a parking problem then the cops wouldn't have been called and then there would have been no problem. The news guy said no neighbors complained but I bet dollars to doughnuts one of those neighbors complained. Wouldn't you SL if someone was blocking your driveway? Or your friends or relatives had no where to park when they came to visit. This was a weekly occurrence so it had been going on for quite sometime. Maybe you wouldn't complain, you being the good Christian that you are. Love your neighbor as yourself, right SL...

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 4:48pm.

they were not cited for parking violations.. they were cited for holding a "RELIGOUS" services..
What... the County does not have regs for parking??? They don't have wreckers to tow vehicles??
COME ON..
This was just what it seems and smell like.. Some anti-God busy bodies that don't like it and will not tolerate it.. Christians have to be all tolerant and all but you guys don't?? hmmm

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 8:28pm.

If someone(and that some one's car was hit by one of the Church's dinner guests)hadn't made a complaint about all the cars parked at that house, the SDPD wouldn't have been called. Now if they were dumb enough to admit they were a church at that location, who's fault is that? They could have said, Church what church, nope just having dinner for my friends and of course we say grace before dinner. That wouldn't be lying, would it? I doubt very much the person that hit the guys car that complained got off Scot free...Maybe a parking ticket, at least had to pay for the car that got hit. But that leads to another ? maybe no one at the Church house owned up to hitting the car in ?..There is probably a lot more to this story that we don't know. The SDPD was called out because there was a problem, not that it was a church at that time. At least that is how I heard the story.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 8:42pm.

"At least that is how I heard the story." Might try reading up on the story.. Instead of listening to "others" telling it.. Just a suggestion.. The County was called out for an "Illegal Religious gathering" their words.. NOT a car accident.. that's just cover to rationalize a Gestapo like action..

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 9:40pm.

According to County Chief Administrative officer Walt Ekard the County received complaints from a neighbor about traffic and parking at Pastor Jones house. The complaint was prompted when a member of the Bible study group hit a neighbors car. The Pastor paid for the damages to the car by the way. These meeting had been ongoing for the last 5 years.

Officer Walt Ekard says this is a land issue not an issue of religious expression. The county sent out someone that takes care of these land issues. Told them of the problems their guests are creating plus there would be no room for emergency vehicles to get through the area and was causing a hazard for all the neighbors. The county is letting them continue to hold meeting there till something can be worked out.

So, what to do...now just saying, if that was my neighborhood and my house was burning and the emergency vehicles couldn't get through the area because of all the cars at Pastor Jones, what would I do? My house would be burning down with maybe my Grandchildren inside and the emergency vehicles can't get through, all because Pastor Jones had to have Bible Study at his house every week with not enough safe parking for the Bible study group. I guess I would have to sue his Church/Bible study group for my loss and that amount would most likely be a great deal more than that permit he had not taken the time or money to get or to move to a safer place to have the Bible study meetings.
San Diego County might agree. Ok Pastor Jones, you can keep your church/meetings/whatever/ but if we have a major problem here you will be responsible for all damages if the emergency vehicles can't get through your neighborhood because you refused to move your church/meetings/ cars. He already paid once, to have the car repaired that was damaged because of traffic at his church/home.

Submitted by MacTheKnife on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 6:42am.

... only in America.

Newsflash: This is a traffic issue people.

Ticket the cars - if that doesn't work, Tow the cars at the owners expense.

Members of the congregation: Start a carpool of stimulate the economy by paying for tickets and towing.

Is it really that complicated people?

Submitted by jwoo on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 9:27am.

Amen?

birdman's picture
Submitted by birdman on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 7:37am.

You know as well as I do that if a house on your street was holding Koran readings once a week you would be out there with a shotgun to stop it. All this "Christian Persecution" stuff. ENOUGH!!! Has ANYONE been prevented by the government from worshiping? Of course not. I grew up in San Diego. They are neither extremely liberal nor anti-christian. I have a number of friends who are SDPD and I assure you they would make you look "liberal." San Diego is a great city. It is anything but "anti-religious." You guys need to get over your incredible hatred for California. It's not all San Francisco. Try going there some day. You actually might like it. Go to Eureka. You will fit in perfectly. They think like you.
A religious meeting is still subject to the same codes as any other meeting. That is part of being a community. Codes are there to protect all members of the community, and all members must obey the codes. Even churches.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 4:09pm.

that was violated... In your obvious hatred for anything related to RELIGON you forget to mention this.. What specifically was violated.. Cars parked in the street? Assembly and Association codes maybe?
Using your LOGIC (sic) if you and your buddies got together for poker and beer night then technically you would violate this "mythical" code. This was not a CHURCH, They were not holding a revival there.. Just a bunch of blue hairs having a study group and dinner... and YOU see something wrong here??? AMAZING.. how about let’s say a bunch of Berkley students meeting to "STUDY"(sic again) and "EAT".. Would they to violate this code???
Oh and as to the "MUSLIM" comment... I could not care less who is "Assembling".. PEACEFULLY in my neighborhood.. We have Latinos, Blacks, Indians (India type)and old white fishing type people...all live peacefully here.. We have Jehovah Witness, Catholics, Baptist, and several more...Those that are believers and those that don't.. We all live PEACEFULLY here.. Are you getting the jest.. All are welcome as long as there is peaceful intent...and it would not be a shotgun it would be the IMI Tavor TAR-21.. SWEEET...Tavor TAR-21 assault rifle (Israel)
So don't assign your prejudice to me.. look into a mirror and see yourself for what you are..

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 3:34pm.

With your apparently well documented "incredible hatred for California", you'll probably get a kick out of this. I got it in an email today, maybe you haven't seen it yet:

Do you know what happened 159 years ago this Fall... way back in 1850?

California became a state.
The people had no electricity.
The state had no money.
Almost everyone spoke Spanish.
There were gunfights in the streets.

So basically, nothing has changed except the women had real boobs and the men didn't hold hands.


Submitted by MacTheKnife on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 3:53pm.

California is even considering two conservative moves that I would LOVE to see unfold.

1) The elimination of welfare.

2) A Flat Tax.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 3:52pm.

California.. where men are men and sheep are scared.. or is that where men are women and.... oh forget it..

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 8:06pm.

It's "California - Where men are men, and so are some of the women..."

The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a
happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the
other. -- Ronald Reagan


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 8:57pm.

Ronald Reagan was govenor.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 9:26pm.

Weather?

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 9:55pm.

Outstanding. Tonight was almost one of those fish on every cast stories. Ladyfish on ultra-light tackle is a real hoot!!! Weather is a little warm during the day but hey, it's summer!!!!
-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 12:46pm.

Smiling

Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 9:50pm.

I remember. Did he accomplish anything accept cause some trouble at Berkly. Oh yea and the stepping stone to the top...

The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 8:30am.

In my neighborhood, there is a weekly bunco party-generally more golfcarts than cars, but does that violate zoning? Graduation parties are a once a year event, but they are a significant source of congestion. As are the football parties and poker nights. So now my question and statement falls under equal protection. If the community in question allows for other regular gatherings in a residentially zoned area, and does not ticket or cite these events, then it is a discriminatory practice and most likely an illegal targeting of religious activity. On the other hand, if those bunco'ers and poker parties are ticketed with the same frequency, then no problem. Since this falls under public records, it is easy to see what this municipality's enforcement practices are. I haven't looked, what is the verdict?


Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 9:28am.

When you are blocking your neighbors driveway, using all the parking spaces with your WEEKLY meeting of WHATEVER...it is...yes they get a ticket.
Once in awhile, Graduation, etc. live and let live. Even saying that, you can bet I will be at my neighbors asking them to move their cars if I need to have that space, asking nicely of course, and because I have awesome neighbors we wouldn't have that problem. They need only ask to park on my property and it will be done.

Before having meetings at your house I would think people would be smart enough(maybe not in San Diego case) to find out the codes/rules/laws for the area you live in. Or on the other hand they knew and didn't want to pay for the expensive permit. Isn't that cheating the taxpayers? Well, maybe not in the Christian world...

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 4:39pm.

"Before having meetings at your house I would think people would be smart enough(maybe not in San Diego case) to find out the codes/rules/laws for the area you live in."
Do you call the city or county before YOU have a BBQ? Well do you???
"Isn't that cheating the taxpayers? Well, maybe not in the Christian world..."
Ahhh there it is.. the SLAM.. Your GOD Bigotry exposed..

News Story
More Info
Wow an Apology

and look an APOLOGY and RUSH did not even have to command it.. WOW..

""If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world," Barrack Obama

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..Evil


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 9:49am.

and condemnation, but your scorn is evident. Generally speaking, neighbors aren't as close as most are led to believe. On my street, there are twenty or so houses. I do not know a full 1/2 of the families, but we have generally a genial street. Once a year we have a street or neighborhood party. Now, in my case, two families directly across from one another decided to park their vehicles in the street. Since they have larger vehicles, it makes a tight channelized situation. Since I can barely get through, I do not bother them. Am I annoyed about it? In all honesty yes.

Do you think that the local (PTC) bunco clubs and weekly poker events have bothered to check zoning regs? I doubt if they are that sophisticated. What do you honestly think?

I am not saying that this group in California is right and neighborly, but most people are not. Lots of people like to file surreptitious complaints. Maybe they don't like Christians, or black people, or a homosexual couple, etc. I am just curious if this is the only enforcement of parking code in a residentially zoned area in that community. Aren't you?


Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 12:46pm.

It would be interesting. I did see the area on the local News Channel and it looked like a small area with trees, if I remember correctly. The News person did talk to a neighbor and she said she didn't mind them parking there but she also said she sometimes had meetings(she didn't say what kind) at her house. Can you imagine having all that coming and going in your residential neighborhood. I don't believe the SDPD would have been out there if they didn't have an idea of the zoning. Now if they went to their door and didn't know what the zoning was and told those in the house in ?, or asked them if they were having church service in a legally zoned area for churches..then that is a different story. Yep, they should apologize IF that was the case.

Your situation is why I don't live in a city. I lived within 12 feet of other houses for years and years. I have to say though, my neighbors were wonderful there too. Maybe it is just me, but most people I like. And like my Father and Mother before me never knew a stranger. I don't know if that is good or bad. But no matter stranger or friend I would still tell them to move their cars if they were bothering me. You are right though you can't nit pick about everything, sometimes you just have to go with the flow...

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