Our problem is immorality

Walter Williams's picture

Most of our nation’s great problems, including our economic problems, have as their root decaying moral values.

Whether we have the stomach to own up to it or not, we have become an immoral people left with little more than the pretense of morality.

You say, “That’s a pretty heavy charge, Williams. You’d better be prepared to back it up with evidence!” I’ll try with a few questions for you to answer.

Do you believe that it is moral and just for one person to be forcibly used to serve the purposes of another?

And, if that person does not peaceably submit to being so used, do you believe that there should be the initiation of some kind of force against him?

Neither question is complex and can be answered by either a yes or no.

For me the answer is no to both questions but I bet that your average college professor, politician or minister would not give a simple yes or no response. They would be evasive and probably say that it all depends.

In thinking about questions of morality, my initial premise is that I am my private property and you are your private property. That’s simple. What’s complex is what percentage of me belongs to someone else.

If we accept the idea of self-ownership, then certain acts are readily revealed as moral or immoral. Acts such as rape and murder are immoral because they violate one’s private property rights. Theft of the physical things that we own, such as cars, jewelry and money, also violates our ownership rights.

The reason why your college professor, politician or minister cannot give a simple yes or no answer to the question of whether one person should be used to serve the purposes of another is because they are sly enough to know that either answer would be troublesome for their agenda.

A yes answer would put them firmly in the position of supporting some of mankind’s most horrible injustices such as slavery. After all, what is slavery but the forcible use of one person to serve the purposes of another?

A no answer would put them on the spot as well because that would mean they would have to come out against taking the earnings of one American to give to another in the forms of farm and business handouts, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps and thousands of similar programs that account for more than two-thirds of the federal budget.

There is neither moral justification nor constitutional authority for what amounts to legalized theft. This is not an argument against paying taxes. We all have a moral obligation to pay our share of the constitutionally mandated and enumerated functions of the federal government.

Unfortunately, there is no way out of our immoral quagmire. The reason is that now that the U.S. Congress has established the principle that one American has a right to live at the expense of another American, it no longer pays to be moral.

People who choose to be moral and refuse congressional handouts will find themselves losers. They’ll be paying higher and higher taxes to support increasing numbers of those paying lower and lower taxes.

As it stands now, close to 50 percent of income earners have no federal income tax liability and as such, what do they care about rising income taxes?

In other words, once legalized theft begins, it becomes too costly to remain moral and self-sufficient. You might as well join in the looting, including the current looting in the name of stimulating the economy.

I am all too afraid that a historian, a hundred years from now, will footnote America as a historical curiosity where people once enjoyed private property rights and limited government but it all returned to mankind’s normal state of affairs — arbitrary abuse and control by the powerful elite.

[Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University.] COPYRIGHT 2009 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

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Submitted by diablocz on Fri, 10/23/2009 - 10:12pm.

Thank you Mr. Williams for your lucid defense (and illustration) of Libertarian principles!! Well done.

Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:58pm.

The bankers on Wall Street robbing billions, or the hard-working minimum wage earner who can't make ends meet even with an EIC? What is moral about the system that led to the economic destruction we are trying to crawl out of? What is moral about bonuses paid to CEO's as thousands of hardworking Americans lose their jobs?

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 11:59am.

“In thinking about questions of morality, my initial premise is that I am my private property and you are your private property. That’s simple. What’s complex is what percentage of me belongs to someone else.”

It's not that complex at all it's just Walter complaining that he has to pay taxes like the rest of us. He's his own private property? Fine Walter. Then don't drive on the road my taxes help build, don't use my schools or airports, don't drink the water from the lake behind my dam, don't use my subsidized electric grid, don't call my police force if you are the victim of a crime, don't go to my national parks and don't use my sewage system. I'm tired of working for you Walter and I want you to quit using my stuff.

World War II? When the income tax began, it was 7% and only the top 10% of earners paid it. It was Hoover and the Republicans that raised the rates to 25% in 1930, then to 63% in 1932.


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 12:47pm.

You are commenting about one portion of his column without taking other portions into account. Hoover and the Republicans raised income taxes for certain, as both parties have done, but only after the 30's, and really in the 60's did we make national policy one of allocating blocks of money to a group of people. This is what Williams is commenting upon. The state is in the process of transferring wealth from one group (lets call them taxpayers) to another group (lets call them tax consumers). And lets be honest, both parties are beholden to thsi process.

Using your logic then, if a person does not pay into the federal income tax system, then they cannot use the roads likewise. Of course, you can say that they are paying gas tax etc, but if you are banning Williams from the roads, then ban the tax consumers as well.

This is really not a great exercise in logic, Jeff. William's article was about the rightness of the state deciding to take from one group of people to give to another that they deem worthy. Last I saw, public works, the military, and schools were not individual citizens that are deemed worthy. They are public concerns and should be supported with public monies. Now how is an individual family considered a public concern? Isn't his point valid--that a tax consuming family has the right to claim a portion of my labor?

edit- I just re-read the article and he plainly states the rightness of paying taxes for enumerated aspects of government. Jeff, you read the same thing. You should have commented about the rightness of taking private property for the usage by another private citizen. Your comments were dissembling at best. And really pointless in a meaningful dialogue


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 10:56pm.

A right wing kook. Always has been. If he thinks Medicare is unconstitutional then he should sue before the Supreme Court. It's silly and not worth arguing about.

Show me where in the Constitution it says the government can build roads, airports, electric power systems, mass transit, sewerage systems, schools, libraries, parks, scientific research; any of it in there?

My logic wasn't saying people who don't pay income taxes shouldn't use roads. It was pointing out the ridiculousness of the argument Williams was making,


Submitted by jokerman on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 8:23am.

The biggest debate in the first hundred years of our country's existence was not slavery, it was what the relationship between the federal and state government would be. The so-called "American System" of Henry Clay and Abe Lincoln in the first half of the 1800's called for a central bank to print inflationary currency in order to fund internal improvements such as roads and infrastructure. It also called for high tariffs to protect certain big businesses. It also called for the centralization of power in the hands of the federal government, as well as empire building. It was Hamilton's dream, fully realized. Many thought these actions were unconstitutional and fought them tooth and nail. But Lincoln's Civil War ended the main part of the debate. The war was a power and money grab, not a fight over slavery. I can provide many quotes from Lincoln and Sherman to back it up. Since then, states are "states" in name only and have little power. Then later, Woodrow Wilson finished the job. The debate still continues in various forms, but to a much lesser degree for most people now accept government spending as a fact of life.

Submitted by a Fayette Citizen on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 11:02am.

And to continue blaming "one side" or "the other" is to continue to re-tabulate those votes in Florida.

A return to statesman-like leadership in Washington is tatamount to turning this ship around. My voices, Westmoreland, Isaakson, and Chambliss, need to get on board. Have you called them lately to express your views? Airing out on this rainy Sunday morning, is useful. Weighing in with your "voices" is just as important.

See you at the Tea Parties.

Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 9:30am.

You are right on target. The problem is most Americans don't want to hear that they have to change their behavior.

They don't want to work for a living.

They don't want to obey the law.

They don't want to live within their means.

We are going backwards. This once great nation was built by people who took pride in working hard. They took pride in being honest good citizens.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 1:42pm.

Who and where are these 'most' Americans? Most Americans work very hard for a 'living'. Most Americans do obey the law. Most Americans are now being forced to live within their means - and I see that as a good thing!! Most Americans do not want to subsist on social security and/or welfare. Most Americans who find themselves out of work are lined up for job opportunities. My concern is that in the not to distant future, unless we upgrade our educational offerings, most Americans will not qualify for the jobs of tomorrow. . .and we will lose our standing as a 'first class' country. American pride is alive and well. We had a 'slip' with elitism, corruption, and greed - but MOST Americans did not participate in this 'slip'. We’re well on our way to our proper place as role models for peace and prosperity. . .and MOST Americans and most citizens on this globe are hopeful.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 1:41pm.

Deleted by author.

mapleleaf's picture
Submitted by mapleleaf on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 7:43am.

Our main problem is dumbness.

Nobody ever owns anything. Ownership is elusive, because we eventually all die. So, basically, we’re all renters. Like it or not. Eventually, we give up everything we supposedly own, one way or another. Temporary ownership is called rental.

Taxes are voluntary. Especially, in Fayette County where people vote to increase their sales tax every four years. It’s been the same in other Georgia counties, except they have been faster on the draw. Our politicians, who set taxes, represent the political will of the majorities who elect them.

Taxes do not take money from one person to give it to another person. Quite often the money taken from one person is given back to that same person. Ask government employees if they pay income tax. They do, so that way they get their own money back. Same with people who receive Social Security payments after paying Social Security taxes all their working life. Here the timing is different, but it’s the same story.

Sometimes the tax money is taken from the parents and given to their children. As with school taxes. It pretty much stays in the family.

Much of the time, the tax money is put to use to keep us safe, as when it is used to pay the military, the border patrol, or the police. You get value for it. Hopefully, the rich pay more because they have more things they want protected.

Taxes are a pain in the butt, but so are articles that claim the government takes money from one person to give to another. To read them is a waste of time.


Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 1:47pm.

Hallelujah!! Someone who understands the reality of 'taxes'. By the way, the 'bail-out' funds for banks are LOANS. Some banks have already paid back their 'loan' with interest! Are the doomsday economists considering this action in their calculation of the deficit?

diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 5:58am.

Whipping those already on the fringe into a frenzy. Conservative editorialists and blow-hard "journalists" have convinced your impressionable masses that They're coming to take your guns!

"Poplawski had feared "the Obama gun ban that's on the way" and "didn't like our rights being infringed upon," said Edward Perkovic, his best friend."

You guys just keep stoking the fires and stoking the fires.

"I love my country, and I fear for it."

Are you kidding me?????

As the Morning Joe commentators react, this is laughable....
As Glenn Beck cries his crocodile tears feeling that his country is lost,except it's hard to laugh when people start dying as more people are pushed over the edge by the televangelist-like rhetoric. The right wing mouth pieces fail to acknowledge the blood that is literally on their hands. I've never seen anything like this. I wonder how far this will go? How much violence will Michele Bachmann, Glenn Beck, Walter Williams, Rush Limbaugh incite before they are called to task publicly? Words have meaning. Actions have consequences. And words that spark actions should be addressed.


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 6:07pm.

But I really had you handicapped in third place. This had Main Stream written all over it, but I guess since crinolines weren't involved she missed it. Sniffer is busy trying to bully bloggers and policing gay rights. So, that leaves you to try to paint a Van Gogh with BS instead of paint.

Here was a guy with obvious mental issues going back several years...

" Margaret Poplawski told police her son had enlisted in the Marine Corps a few years ago, but was discharged for assaulting his drill sergeant in basic training, according to the complaint. Since his discharge, she told police, he had been "stockpiling guns and ammunition, buying and selling the weapons online, because he believed that as a result of the economic collapse, the police were no longer able to protect society. Mrs. Poplawski reported that her son only liked police when they were not curtailing his constitutional rights, which he was determined to protect," the complaint said."

His own mother told the police he had been stockpiling since his discharge "years ago". This is a clear case of mental problems and not one of the "impressionable masses" being "whipped into a frenzy by conservative editorialists".

There are three dead policemen today and their families must be devastated. To bastardize it into a political consequence is low class, even for you guys.


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 3:47pm.

Never thought I'd be saying that Laughing out loud.

Hutch. Let's be clear on what we are talking about here. Name calling is one thing. Whipping people up into a violent frenzy is another.

I am not the name calling police. I cannot possibly blog in to condemn everyone that calls another stupid, libtard, liberal douche bag, bed wetter, tree hugger, idiot, moron, republicrap, etc. Don't equate my lack of protesting name calling as agreement.

For example, Cowardly liar "fred" garvin has a post scrip[t that implies our great country died when our President was inaugurated. You haven't publicly rejected that, but you don't see me implying that you support that view.

If someone says to their large following that "your body is your private property" and "the government is stealing your body" or "the government is stealing your freedom" or "we need an armed militia" or "This great nation is under attack from the White House," people on the edge of reality may be pushed off of the emotional cliff.
If you care about the safety of your fellow citizens, you might at least show a little curiosity as to why people who have managed emotional problems are now cracking.
MOC, you are right: "Here was a guy with obvious mental issues going back several years..."

So, MOC, WHAT CHANGED? He held it together until recently. You best start asking WHY or we are bound to see more dead people; victims of those who feel the government is marxist and socialist and coming to get their guns.

You may not like the answer to the "why did this happen" question, but again.


Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 7:18pm.

diva has a very unhealthy preoccupation with me and attempts to work my name into just about every post she writes. She just can't get over the fact that Cal called her out for referring to me as a male prostitute.

If anyone ever wonders why people don't use their real names on this blog, it's because SOME libs out there are generally very unstable mentally, and they will take their frustrations out on people who just want to join in on the discussion.

It's really a shame that a few bad apples out there have to ruin it.

The United States of America
July 4, 1776 - Jan 20, 2009
Rest in Peace


Robert W. Morgan's picture
Submitted by Robert W. Morgan on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 5:00am.

Is there really a market for a male prostitute in Fayette County? Or more to the point is there room for one more?

I am confused about what a male prostitute does and to whom?

Or have I got this completely wrong and out of context because diva was just calling you out as another politician?


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:36am.

The poster "fred" garvin took the name from a Saturday Night Live skit, Fred Garvin: Male prostitute.

"fred" the blogger lied and said he is "brave enough" to use his real name. But "fred" the blogger,, is a liar who is not person enough to admit this lie.

But, Robert, if you want to give the business idea a go, I'll circulate the business cards. Eye-wink


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 4:36pm.

what changed.

This guy attacks his D.I. in basic training. (alarm bells)

Starts stockpiling weapons and ammo after discharge from military (more alarm bells)

Gets laid off from his job a few months ago (alarm bells because of previous alarm bells)

Living at home at the age of 23 with his mother because he had no job (big old alarm bells because the other bells are still ringing)

Comes down to his dog urinating in his mother's house and not respecting her enough to think it is wrong. (bells are deafening)

Knows the cops are coming and suits up in the body armor. Gets out the old AK-47 and hides in the hall behind Mom while she opens the door for two cops on a "routine" domestic call. Shoots one in the head with his Mom standing there. An obvious ambush.

This just points to a really sick individual and I don't think politics and talk-radio have a damn thing to do with it. I just think cops giving their life deserve more. That was it....


Submitted by AtHomeGym on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 5:07pm.

MOC, you got it all right. This guy was a ticking time-bomb and all the "Tea Party" stuff had nothing to do with it. Good analysis. Just too bad someone didn't force him to get some help before it cost lives.

hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 4:03pm.

You're right, you can't blog in to condemn it all, you are very selective about who call out, it must be just a big coincidence you only call out repubs, I get it. you don't call what sniff did whipping someone into a frenzy? I got nothing else to say about it, I see the pattern, two sets of rules.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:42am.

Because, somehow, you forgot that I was one of the first people to call Sniffles out when he brought up GitReal's kids in a post. I even told Sniff that in person. Too bad you forgot that.

And, it's amazing that you never answered the question on who has actually:

1) Mailed offensive material to bloggers' homes?

2) Mailed material to bloggers' places of work in attempts to get them fired or reprimanded?

3) Who are the folks who have actually impacted other bloggers' employment.

4) Who on these boards have published names and addresses; threatened actual physical harm to others?

I understand that you don't like the answers to these questions, but the situation is what the situation is......


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:02am.

While we are talking about not answering questions, I asked did not sniffles bear some responsibility, no answer from you, I said did not sniffles say the same crap to Git, not about his kids, but the same thing Lindsey did, no answer from you on that either, your memory is as selective on here as anyone's, if not more so. Maybe you can show me where it said anywhere in the news reports what the crazy guy in PA's party affiliation was, where did they say he was a registered Republican, you just assume he was conservative eh? Well I said I was done with it, but I will leave you with this, you spring to Obama's defense every time someone says something about him you don't like, like it's some kind of treason, yet the Dem's on here hammered Bush for years, and not a word from you no matter how nasty it got, you ask how someone can say that about a sitting president, when you've said as bad if not worse, there's your hypocrisy, if you don't like it there's nothing I can do about it. I try to be fair in all things, what I've been seeing ain't fair, my answers don't suit you, tough, I don't give a s*&^. later, maybe.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 8:58pm.

make stuff up and exaggerate the situation.

"you ask how someone can say that about a sitting president, when you've said as bad if not worse, there's your hypocrisy,"

Hutch, you just made this up. I never called George W. Bush a "bastard," "S.O.B," or "traitor." I never suggested he "hated America," "Hated his mother," or was a "terrorist, Marxist, dictator, communist, socialist, etc." As I recall, I talked about him seeming like a fun father and husband; being fun at a barbecue or good for a beer; not being afraid to laugh at himself; but being completely and utterly wrong on policies supporting the torture of human beings and preemptive war as a policy.

Hutch, one of your fellow conservatives did me the favor of anonymously (COWARD) sharing every post I had written about the former president with my boss, his boss, his boss, and his boss; from D.C. on down. Hutch, my employment is what it was. Do you think that would be the case if I, in your words, "said as bad if not worse?" If you are going to accuse me of that, at least have the decency to give me one actual example.....if you can. I won't wait for an apology, but don't be so doggone surprised that I don't want to play nice with people who aimed for my head.

"you spring to Obama's defense every time someone says something about him you don't like, like it's some kind of treason, yet the Dem's on here hammered Bush for years, and not a word from you no matter how nasty it got,"

Again, hutch, why the gross exaggeration? Have you ever seen the blogs congested, top to bottom, day after day with anti George W. Bush blogs? Ever seen as much tripe delivered to these boards on him? I respond to just a fraction of the slime our friendly right-wing patriots deliver here (in Obama's first two months no less!). If you think that I somehow, from time to time, have to argue their point of view for them.... SURPRISE! I'm a democrat. I thought you knew that. If some moon bat posts on President Obama being a Muslim, or loving terrorists, or hating America, or bowing to "racist British Royalty," I just might say something. As one of the handful of democratic regulars, I have no idea why you think I should comment even less than I already do.

"Maybe you can show me where it said anywhere in the news reports what the crazy guy in PA's party affiliation was, where did they say he was a registered Republican, you just assume he was conservative eh?"

Hutch, I never said the Pittsburgh shooter was a "registered republican." If you look at my original post, I said, not clearly enough I guess, that I have a problem with conservative "editorialists" and "journalists" "Whipping those already on the fringe into a frenzy.Here is my exact statement. "Conservative editorialists and blow-hard "journalists" have convinced your impressionable masses that They're coming to take your guns!"

The shooter would be the "impressionable masses." The blowhards, in my opinion, are the ones stoking the flames of hatred. Remember what the shooter's BFF said,

"Poplawski had feared "the Obama gun ban that's on the way" and "didn't like our rights being infringed upon," said Edward Perkovic, his best friend."

Hutch, if the message that "President Obama is coming for your guns" did not originate in conservative realms, where the heck did it come from? And Hutch, there are other examples. Note this quote from the story:

"A four-page letter found in Jim Adkisson's small sport utility vehicle indicated he singled out the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church because, the police chief said, "he hated the liberal movement" and was upset with "liberals in general as well as gays."

Check out the killer's reading list. Is this a coincidence?

And finally , Hutch:

"While we are talking about not answering questions, I asked did not sniffles bear some responsibility, no answer from you, I said did not sniffles say the same crap to Git, not about his kids, but the same thing Lindsey did, no answer from you on that either,"

I'm not sure what you are after with this, Hutch. My post was never about name calling; sticks and stones will break my bones stuff. Should Sniffles have mentioned Lindsy's mom or dad? Of course not. We've all been called names. We don'tneed to resort to the old meet me in the street drill. If anyone can't take getting called a name here without wanting to turn violent, they probably don't need to blog. That is not a comment aimed at S. Lindsey, who is a guy I really like. That's just a general statement as to why I don't blow a gasket when someone calls me a short balled guy.

"I try to be fair in all things, what I've been seeing ain't fair,"

Hutch, I wholeheartedly agree.

"my answers don't suit you, tough,"

Hutch, again, I wholeheartedly agree.

I imagine you'll never get around to answering what side of the aisle all of the banned posters who have attempted to harm and actually harmed other posters come from. And neither of us will have the last word on this, because, as sure as I'm typing, there will be more out there who kill to get rid of liberals who want to take their guns, steal their money to give to poor people, and turn their country, which died on 01/20/09, into a socialist, communist, Marxist state.

Cheers


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 2:52pm.

I hate to see two friends end up like this just because of this crazy blog.

Diva, I had no idea you were also "muddled"... And I have no doubt that Hutch would come to your defense in this matter if you needed his support, and vice versa. Actually, I believe most of us would be there for you! Politics aside, we all rallied around muddle and Git when the devious "flying monkeys" came after those two, threatening their jobs and families. Even Git and sniffles put down their swords and seemed to become *friends*. Heck, even though I'm a flaming liberal and Git is an ultra-conservative, I can't help but like the guy and would rally to his defense if the "flying monkeys" raised their evil heads again (and muddle as well).

But for politics. That's what some of us debate and argue here, and why we return to this blog each day...and sometimes it becomes passionate and folks become mad and enraged at each other. I don't like the nasty posts about Obama, but I sure do love posting nasties about Bush and the misguided Repub's. Eye-wink We can all whip each other up into a frenzy, so to speak, poking sticks at each other for grins but at the end of the day, I still feel we would rally round each other if another blogger were threatened or hurt by someone. And that is more important than any political debate.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:12pm.

Dance, diva, dance, this whole thing started with me asking you a question which you didn't answer but took off on a tangent , so whatever man, whatever. I said I was done, I'm done. Have a good life. I stand by my previous post. BTW, if you can lump me in the pile with all conservatives, I can by God do the same with you with all Dems. I won't say cheers because frankly I ain't feeling too cheery.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:27pm.

At least this way, you'll never have to answer the tough questions.


sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 6:51pm.

Sounds like this Poplawski fellow really took this "Tea Party" rhetoric to heart.


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 7:17pm.

was that he didn't get to know you.


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 7:22pm.

You really are mean. There is truth in your advertizing. Eye-wink


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 8:18pm.

Sometimes you just have to wallow in the mud with some of these pigs...


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 8:36pm.

This brings to mind an interesting phenomena that I observed in my young days at my uncles farm. When my brother and I would stand and observe the pigs for awhile, they would start to remind you of people that you knew, and our comments would be like (names changed to protect the thin-skinned), "Doesn't that one look like moc", or "doesn't that one remind you of wedge", or "that one looks just like carbonunit".

It's not easy being the carbonunit


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 8:41pm.

involved tending to chickens and collecting eggs, baling hay (old rectangles), caring for pheasants, and the one time castration of a pig. That was a squeal to remember.


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 8:27pm.

I will limit my list to the leftists on this site. How would you rank them by mud wallowing? Off the top of my head, I guess it would be Main Stream, Diva, Sniffles, Iamright...then way way down the list to Jeff C and David's Mom. Those are all the leftists I can think of off the top of my head.


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 11:19pm.

All the same liberals are here, arguing our side and offering opinions on everything from politics to kiddie pageants. It's the conservative, right-wingnuts and religious zealots who have self-destructed and ended up getting banned from this site for their nastiness and threatening others, like Beaver, OtherSideTrax, Denise, Bpr/Lilly, TruthSleuth (any more?)

What's your point, anyway? If I get a prize for being #1 in your playbook, I'll take some lotto tickets.

(I do miss our pals Sick-of-Fascists and NUK...where did they go?)


Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:26pm.

Can't even work myself up to post. Seems somewhat pointless. Have found that the Newnan Times Herald has a lovely website, with well-reported and less inflaming articles.

diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:32pm.

Wonder how long before the Newnan site goes nuclear.

Cheers


Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:45pm.

Actually I have retained my optimistic view of humanity, mainly by convincing myself that the bloggers on this website are an extreme minority, even here in Fayette County. I read of progress in Vermont and Iowa, and rejoice. I get involved in local charities and meet really genuinely caring people, and rejoice. I take my kid to the play park and see all kinds of ethnicities generally enjoying themselves, and rejoice.

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:51pm.

This has been my experience also! My grandkids love Fayetteville - and the Avenues.

Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:01pm.

It really is a lovely place. I hope the kids can grow up without all the vitriol spewed around by the "adults" on this website!

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:40pm.

Human nature can be disappointing, in direct proportion to how much cooperation one is expecting. Lately, its been (to paraphrase Rodney Dangerfield) "I went to a street fight and a Citizens blog broke out".

It's not easy being the carbonunit


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 6:15pm.

I don't feel like getting in between the diehard lefties and righties these days as nothing said here is going to change anyone's mind on any fundamental national-scale issues:)


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 7:05pm.

Good to see you here again. I miss your insightful postings but also understand your desire to just *lurk* and not get into the mud wrestling here.

I'm just glad you're still around Smiling


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 12:04pm.

Interestingly, I have recently, without help, and quite by accident, stumbled upon the actual identity of the person (mentioned by you above) who "outed" me here and complained to my employer.

One feels tempted to return favors.

Ah, but ye have heard it said, "An eye for an eye... But I say unto you...."

____________________

"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue


Submitted by FayetteFlyer on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 3:47pm.

Wait! Someone who is anonymously blogging themselves, discovers your real life "alter-ego" and outs you to your employer?! That is just warped, immature and petty. I could come up with more adjectives, but you catch my drift. I don't always agree with some of the opinions expressed here, but as Patrick Henry said, "I'll defend to the death your right(s) to do so!" What, pray tell, was this loser expecting your employer to do to you?

Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 8:49am.

. . Don't give in to the temptation. Justice will be done - if not already accomplished. There was an unexpected change in your journey - but probably placed you on a better path.

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 1:29pm.

very interesting indeed!

If I was you, I don't know if I would be able to hold back my rage....

but that's just me Evil

(I think Git had some problems with these wackos too...y'all should compare notes)


eodnnaenaj1's picture
Submitted by eodnnaenaj1 on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 1:15pm.

You certainly are a better person than I . . .shoot I believe there are several on here that would like to get ahold of that mean ole outster!


Tug13's picture
Submitted by Tug13 on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 2:30pm.

I agree with Jane, you are most certainly a better person than I am.
I would like to have 5 minutes with that person, look them in the eye and ask...WHY???

Tug Smiling


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 6:56pm.

to step into the dung. Couldn't resist, could you Eye-wink


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 1:25pm.

Diva,

If you think the right wing should accept the consequences of the actions of people who insanely take rhetoric to extremes, should the left do the same thing? Should you take responsibility for the slums of Havana or Caracas? Should you take responsibility for the rationing that inevitably takes place from Universal Health Care? Should you wrap your arms around the sadden British families whose loved ones were denied care due to costs? I certainly do not think so. Why do you think the right should? More human suffering has been laid at the altar of the ultimate left wing ideal of collectivization and statism than has ever been laid at a right wing - individualism thought process.


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 8:28am.

If you think the right wing should accept the consequences of the actions of people who insanely take rhetoric to extremes, should the left do the same thing? Should you take responsibility for the slums of Havana or Caracas? Should you take responsibility for the rationing that inevitably takes place from Universal Health Care? Should you wrap your arms around the sadden British families whose loved ones were denied care due to costs?

Should AMERICANS accept the consequences!! What about the slums in the US? What about the Americans who are DYING because they cannot afford health care? We don't have Universal Health Care - but we still have seniors who cannot afford their medication. What about them? We at least have health care for our children. Have you read the current proposal for health care for all Americans? Do you have suggestions for improvement? Have you notified your representative or is your representative sworn to 'just say no' to all or any help for Americans?

diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 4:33pm.

Tell me who in the USA has been "victimized" by Universal Healthcare. Who have liberals incited to violence? Who, do you suppose, is looking to do you physical harm for being a conservative?


meanoldconservatives's picture
Submitted by meanoldconservatives on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 5:37pm.

"Who, do you suppose, is looking to do you physical harm for being a conservative?"

Seems pretty obvious Diva, but if you insist:

I'll say Sniff for $500 Alex....


The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 5:07pm.

Who have liberals incited to violence- quick answer- the liberals who attacked the supporters of Prop 8 in California. Do a quick search of the news. They were there, queer, and attacking. The liberals were on the attack. Does that mean I win? Get real.

Liberals want universal health care-correct me if I am wrong- then see the results-both good and bad in Europe and Canada. How is it working for the Brits, or even our own vets? rationing is coming soon. of course it was going to happen anyway. And good gracious- mainstream liberal websites openly support the murder or death of prominent conservatives on many occasions. You dont see that nearly so often on the main stream conservative sites. But you are arguing about the tallest dwarf. Absurd.

Do you want to see the carnage of the liberalization of society--look in the fatherless homes across the country and in our big cities. Liberal policies, and a liberalization of sexual norms have sown the seeds of a wonderful harvest.


Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 10:44am.

. .and how did 8+ years of 'conservative' leadership stop this carnage? Let's look at us - and stop blaming politicians for our slippage! We lionize celebrity couples that don't bother to 'marry'. We criticize humans who respect one another as individuals and seek a committed relationship. We abhor different cultural practices - but turn a blind eye to our own religious leaders who 'fall from grace'. The current administration is exhibiting what we, as Americans, say we stand for. Family, working collaboratively with our neighbors, treating others as we would want to be treated. What are you afraid of? Over 60% of Americans have hope - and are taking steps to clean up their own house: i.e. living within our means; respecting our neighbors; following the law; etc., etc., etc.

Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 1:54pm.

Let's turn to the centrists. The extreme left and right ideologies - or some citizens interpretation of these ideologies are not always based on 'fact'. Communism is not considered financially successful in Cuba - but it's a different story in China. The US embraced Chinese Communism because of 'trade enrichment' and China's capitalistic practices. We did not do that with Cuba - hence one of the reasons for the stark difference in their economies. (Plus - we now owe our financial souls to China!)

Submitted by Adamsville on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 9:34am.

Diva, everyone that is lucky enough to be an American deserves the right to express themselves freely. Even the talking heads on cable news that perpetuate the myth that "They're coming to take your guns". Unstable people who are stressed will listen to any idiot without checking the facts and use that as an excuse to do something stupid.

But the extreme left is no better. They whip the anti-war nuts in a frenzy and those peace zealots show up at a fallen service members funeral. That would be the time for the right-wing nuts to show up and do something useful for a change by keeping the left-wing nuts at bay. Whether it's the far right or far left these people are all fanatics.

diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 4:44pm.

"But the extreme left is no better. They whip the anti-war nuts in a frenzy and those peace zealots show up at a fallen service members funeral."

Oh Heck no!

Westboro Baptist Church, Adamsville. THEY ARE YOURS!!!

The RIGHT has whipped this church of loony tunes into a frenzy.

Westboro Baptist Church protests soldiers' funerals out of hatred for gays.

Here is their schedule

They feel "GOD HATES AMERICA" for our loss of morals.

These are your loony tunes, fueled by hate, and motivated and incited by this mindless drivel from the right that is reaching a crescendo.

These are YOURS!

Every American has a voice. If they use that voice to yell "fire" in a crowded room or "rape," there should be consequences (unless there is a fire or a rape).


Submitted by mysteryman on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 9:47am.

SHE CAN TELL YOU BOUT THE PLANE CRASH WITH A GLEAM IN HER EYE.....Don Henley Dirty Laundry.... Its all about ratings and advertising dollars, the higher the drama the more spectacular the headline the higher the body count the better......Film at eleven stay tuned.....BLESS......

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 10:04am.

I really do hope the old goat is OK.
-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 11:26am.

Me, too.

Something's up, though.

___________________

"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 1:00pm.

Has anyone tried to email him?


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 3:06pm.

He's not accepting any e-mails. His last post was 3/10.
-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 6:42am.

And words that spark actions should be addressed.

OK Diva, how should they be "addressed"?

-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 7:16am.

Where in the world are YOU today? I remain in an undisclosed location for a few hours more.

How to address speech that incites violence?

1. Start with a very vocal rejection from the right; a rejection that as of yet has been mute. for instance, when Congresswoman Michele Bachmann speaks of wanting her constituents "armed and dangerous," her fellow republicans should tell her to reign in the rhetoric.

2. As Joe Scarbrough has done with the entertaining televangelist Glenn Beck, these people should be ridiculed and their messages rejected.

3. And, if a case can be made for a pundit directly inciting violence, that case should be pressed.

Look at what motivated Jim David Adkisson to "kill democrats."

This has become very real, Cyclist, and ignoring this wave of violence, IMHO, is NOT the answer.

Cheers.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 9:19am.

And yet you had nothing to say to sniffles when he called Lindsey a liar and coward for no other reason then disagreeing with him, is it just the right wingers that should be censored? I know you read it, we talked about it yesterday. Maybe it's just the Dems who should be allowed to say what they want. That appears to be your slant anyway.

BTW, I must have missed sniff's post on his schedule for Saturday.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 4:53pm.

Sniffles called Lindsey a liar and coward.

Lindsey wanted a post haste coffee get together.

Which one of these gentlemen, do you think, intended ACTUAL PHYSICAL HARM to the other?

Who do you think is most likely to be shot at?

George Walker Bush, or Barack Hussein Obama?

Who do you think is most likely to be harmed, physically, by a fellow poster? Please be honest with yourself. Which posters, on THESE boards, have attempted to affect and actually affected the livelihood of others??

It can be no clearer, Hutch. And I hope there is a way to head this off at the pass.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 5:17pm.

So sniff bears no responsibility in this? Did not sniff do the exact same thing with Git? I heard nothing from you then either, I see where you're coming from, it can be no clearer, you're right. Do as I say not as I do. Got it.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


Submitted by AtHomeGym on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 5:10pm.

As a 42 yr US Army veteran, I can guarantee you that I know something about conflicts, physical and otherwise. I think Sniff was out of bounds to bring Steve's parents into the exchange and I think Steve should have dismissed Sniff's dumbass remarks as the product of a lesser person. End of discussion.

Submitted by mysteryman on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 5:22pm.

Some comments warrant no reply at all, for they are nothing more than examples of ones own ignorance. I can liken it to one participating in a conversation that they cannot even comprehend only to have their blood pressure rise to new heights as no one replys to their comments anymore.."You say it best when you say nothing at all." Allison Krause....BLESS

sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 10:03am.

Got your passive-aggressive mojo workin' this morning? Eye-wink No need to rely on Diva to do your complaining to me, cut out the middleman and tell me ya disagree directly!

Insofar as my buddy SLindsey goes, I called him out as a coward and liar not because I disapprove of his positions (however lame they are), but because his posting history here does suggest a lack of intestinal fortitude and moral character.

To wit: I knew I had Lyin' Lindsey cold on the facts related to gasoline and the so-called "fair tax". If you look at the exchange, even the National Public Relations Director for the so-called "fair tax", Mr. Ken Hoagland, admitted my position was correct: gas prices will rise under the so-called "fair tax".

But SLindsey lacked the courage to admit he was wrong. He hemmed, he hawed, he shucked, he jived but he just couldn't summon up enough personal courage to own up to his mistaken conclusion that imbedded taxes just had to make prices go down. If I prove that 2+2=4, it is not a case of "not respecting someone else's differing opinion" if they want to believe that 2+2=5.

Likewise, I happen to believe that SLinsdsey is a liar as well, although perhaps not as congenital a liar as his padwan Darth Dubious (who believes he is entitled to attribute fictional direct quotes to Obama). Case in point, again with the so-called "fair tax" and excise taxes, Lindsey lied about their removal and when I corrected him about his mistatement, instead of admitting he was wrong, he googled 'fair tax' and "federal excise tax", and posted a link to a WSJ article after first changing the title of the article to support his position. That's the type of behavior of a liar.

I remain convinced that SLindsey's father raised a coward and his mother raised a liar until he can demonstrate some character traits to the contrary.

As far as my Saturday schedule goes, you may recall that I participate in a PTC civic organization on Saturdays. As such, it's not always easy for me to drop everything to discipline a petulant child like SLindsey.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear to you: I feel that everyone has the right to their own opinion. Having said that, if you are stupid enough to promote half-truths and demonstrable lies as part of your "opinion", you should not be surprised if someone takes issue with it. It didn't work for Dubya, and it's not working for Lindsey.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 10:18am.

Nothing passive or aggressive about it. I do find it funny that somehow the rules don't seem to apply to all of us equally depending on a political affiliation. I was commenting on Diva's post not yours, didn't you catch that? I didn't recall your civic schedule as to tell you the truth, I don't care enough to keep up with it, my bad. I'll be clear to you too, when Bush was compared to Clinton for 8 years you always fell back on the but, but, Clinton defense, so here goes, but, but, Bush.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 7:10pm.

Here Hutch.... Git one of THESE and program it with the 'Distressed Taxpayer Call'. When a Conservative or a Moderate plays this sound while discussing the fact that the Left is devouring the producing species of this country, you will find the rabid Libruls coming out of the bush to finish us off. At that point a clear shot is in your sites.

Anyways rather than bicker with those that live off the backs of 'other people's money and efforts' I'm exiting the house to take my FoxPro and set it up while programing it to the 'distressed cottontail' recording and see if I can knock a couple of 'em down this evening with my Marlin lever action 30-30. I'm sick and tired of them eating my cats out here. Do you realize how difficult it is to raise cats on the farm when the coyotes eat your cat herd? I'm gonna go broke out here if these Democrats...I mean coyotes don't start producing for themselves. Dang...those predators remind of real life.....Trying to protect my hard earned wages from the prowling Lefties. Eye-wink

Don't Spread My Wealth.... Spread My Work Ethic


Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 9:35am.

Thanks for keeping it real.

I guess we should follow the lead of the naacp. You know, the way they reprimand and rebuke criminals and the criminal lifestyle. We all should speak up when we see something that is wrong or immoral. I think we have hypocrites on both sides of the fence.

diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 4:58pm.

How did I NOT see this coming?

So, Skyspy, who are the NAACP shipping into a frenzy to harm "conservatives?"


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 9:03am.

I'm in LaGrange. Anyways, be careful about this "we'll ban only incorrect speech". It's a double edge sword with both edges equally sharp.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 8:36am.

Hillary Blames US For Mexican Drug Violence

“Our insatiable demand for illegal drugs fuels the drug trade,” Clinton told reporters as she visited Mexico City to meet President Felipe Calderon. “Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the deaths of police officers, soldiers and civilians.”

The Myth Of "90 percent"

“In a story that looks at the reality of firearms seized from Mexican drug cartels, Fox News has found that the truth does not match the rhetoric of anti-gun politicians and journalists.”

The United States of America
July 4, 1776 - Jan 20, 2009
Rest in Peace


Submitted by mysteryman on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 9:52am.

And took care of our own, and provided them with a hopeful existence, instead of a lifetime of indentured servitude, then the problem may very well take care of itself....But this is only a pipedream....PEACE..

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