* It is time for real Change.. TAX REFORM

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It is time for real Change.. TAX REFORM

Fair Tax or Flat Tax.. or something else.. Whichever it is time for CHANGE.. Real Change not the Obama kind.. April 15th is almost here and once again we hear from Washington we have to pay our fair share.. Joe Biden said we have to pay more and be Patriotic.. While one after the other Democrats are falling from grace for not paying "Their fair share" Don't get me wrong I think there are just as many Republicans that don't either...
That is why we never get real reform.. they don't care about tax reform.. they don't pay taxes.. That's for us little people..
Join a "TEA" party somewhere.. make yourself heard.. It does not matter if your left or right.. Taxes are universal to all of us.. Make a Stand..

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PlainEnglishSummary_TheFairTaxAct2007.pdf	232.56 KB

S. Lindsey's blog | login to post comments

The Fair Tax, HR 25 / S 296

Submitted by chugalugalug on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 5:09pm.

We here in Texas have a state sales tax and it has resulted in NONE! of the dire predictions some have foreseen. There has been no scandal, corruption, or cheating in relation to it. It has funded our state government SPLENDIDLY! We Texans, tourists, illegal aliens, criminals, etc. are all in INSTANT COMPLIANCE!! every time we go through the "cash-register-check-out-line". Virtually no one escapes paying. If it works for Texas it will work for the nation.

THINK ABOUT IT MORE...................................................

Read and Enjoy..................................................

APRIL 15TH????? Let's make it just another Spring day.

HR 25, the Fair Tax Act, is in the House Ways and Means Committee of
congress, waiting to be passed into law. If passed, the Income Tax &
IRS would be abolished and replaced with a national (retail only) sales
tax.

Everyone shoud go to: www.congress.org and tell their congressmen that
they want HR 25 passed into law ASAP!!!! If we all "push together", we
can make it happen. There's nothing to it, BUT TO DO IT!!!!!!

Read and Enjoy.

The FINAL SOLUTION!! for the IRS & Income Tax Problem

50 Reasons I Support the FairTax
(How many reasons can you give for supporting the present obsolete IRS
& income tax system?)

Those Who Know the Facts Love the Fair Tax
"Family Friendly Tax Reform"
Tax Reform with far less pain and much more gain!
Out with the Old Code and in with the New (national RETAIL ONLY sales
tax).

www.fairtax.org

1. It allows you to keep 100% of your paycheck, with nothing withheld
for Social Security and Medicare payments.
2. It eliminates the regressive payroll tax that hurts the poor.
Currently, every one of us is taxed a minimum of 7.65% on our first-dollar of
wages up to $90,000, if we earn that much.
3. It assures that the wealthiest Americans will be voluntarily helping
to fund social security with every last dollar they spend above the
poverty level. Today, earnings are subject to payroll taxes only up to
$90,000. The wealthiest Americans therefore do not pay into the system
above that amount. If their earnings are from investments, no earnings
fund the Social Security system. Under the FairTax, a single purchase
(regardless of the source of the earnings) can result in greater
contributions to the Social Security system than would be paid by an individual
under the payroll tax of today.
4. It provides funding for Social Security and Medicare at a level
equal to or greater than at present, with a stronger and broader tax base.
5. It secures the future of Social Security and Medicare because all
spenders fund it and not just the workers.
6. It eliminates all personal income taxes, payroll taxes, corporate
income taxes, gift taxes, death taxes, and capital gains taxes.
7. It eliminates the income tax and the IRS. Members of Congress and
the public overwhelmingly agree that the current internal revenue code is
cumbersome, intrusive, coercive, and inefficient.
8. It is revenue neutral with the present income tax system, funding
the federal budget at current levels.
9. It will remove an average of 22% of the cost of American made goods
by removing the built-in payroll tax (the other 7.65% of earnings that
employers pay) and other business taxes that are now passed to
consumers as an "embedded" tax of approximately 22% due to the cascading of
income and payroll taxes paid by U.S. employers, at every step of
production, to the U.S. Treasury.
10. It doesn't tax used items ? clothes, cars, homes. Only new items
are taxed when sold by a business to an individual.
11. It is progressive, a "prebate" of the tax amount up to the poverty
level is given to everyone. This means that those spending below the
poverty level have a net gain because the "prebate" exceeds the amount
paid in taxes. (Under the present system they pay the payroll tax even if
they get a full refund of income tax withheld.)

12. It eliminates 90% of the cost of compliance. American families and
American businesses waste an estimated $250 ? $600 billion per year
doing the paperwork necessary to comply with the tax code. That is roughly
$1,000 ? $2,000 annually for every man, woman and child in the U.S.
13. It creates an opportunity for our products to leave this country
costing an average of 25% less, thus increasing our exports, lower our
deficit balance of trade, and increasing employment at home.
14. It encourages investment in companies located in the U.S., thus
providing a home for money already in the US and attracting more. The U.S.
will be the most attractive tax-free haven in the world for doing
business. American companies will return from offshore and overseas.
15. It encourages repatriation to the U.S. of money held by U.S.
individuals and companies now in foreign countries, with no tax consequence.
16. All 290 million Americans and 51 million visiting tourists fund
Social Security and Medicare with their purchases. Today only 110 million
workers fund these programs via deductions from their paychecks.
17. The broader tax base includes the ten percent of our economy, an
estimated $1 trillion, that today is underground or under the table.
Under the FairTax, the illegal drug dealer will pay his tax just like the
rest of us when he buys his sunglasses, BMW, and other items, as will
those who do business for cash.
18. It allows families to save more for home ownership, education, and
retirement. An average family making $50,000 will have $7,500 more
spendable income.
19. It makes educational tuition a tax-free expenditure of tax-free
income.
20. It makes American products more competitive overseas by removing
the embedded tax from them, thus lowering their prices, which compensates
for low foreign wages.
21. It makes American products more competitive at home by removing the
embedded tax from them, compensating for the low cost of imported
products not burdened by taxes imposed by exporting countries.
22. It removes the need for formal 401-K's, IRAs, HSA, etc. Anyone will
be able to set up any kind of savings or investment account without
regard to taxes or the government.
23. It frees churches and other non-profit organizations from the
expense of filing tax returns and paying their half of Social Security and
Medicare payments for employees. There will no longer be any 501.c.3 or
501.c.4 non-profit tax status, because there will be no more tax to be
exempt from.
24. It restores to churches and non-profit organizations the 1st
Amendment right to engage in free speech, without fear of losing their
tax-free status.
25. It gives individuals and businesses the right to donate as much as
they want to in a given year to charitable causes.
26. It restores the 4th Amendment, protecting against unreasonable
searches and seizures, from which the IRS presently is exempt.
27. It restores the 5th Amendment, which guarantees the right to due
process. Under current systems the IRS has their own courts with their
own set of rules not included in the 5th.
28. It cleans up a major flaw in campaign financing, eliminating
campaign donations for "tax favors".
29. It eliminates wrangling in Congress over tax cuts, the tax code,
and who is or is not paying a fair share of the tax bill.
30. It encourages work by letting workers keep 100% of their earnings
and giving a rebate, to boot, making the notion that the more you work,
the more money you have, a reality, unlike the current system where
welfare is lost when you go to work, so your first dollars earned after
taxes just offset what you were currently getting in welfare, making you
no better off.
31. It allows more of the lower income families to become home owners
by allowing a second job income above their current income (all tax
free) to be applied to a mortgage. Money for down payments for homes is
also saved totally tax free so that it will accumulate faster.
32. It allows families to retain farms and businesses in the hands of
those who built them through the elimination of the death tax.
33. It allows families to help each other out tax-free, by eliminating
the gift tax.
34. It encourages individuals to self-insure, making the health system
more direct pay (no 3rd party pay), thus bringing costs down.
35. Without FICA to pay, most states, counties, municipalities, and
school districts will see a large increase in their state budget revenues,
additionally lowering the overall tax burden (State & Federal) for most
Americans.
36. It assures that no American will find, at the end of the year, a
need to get a loan to pay taxes as an alternative to penalties, interest,
or cheating.
37. It restores individual privacy. The government no longer needs to
know where you work, what you are earning, and what you are doing with
it.
38. It eliminates the need to have a "marriage" clarification declaring
who you live with, as that has no bearing at all on a state or federal
sales tax.
39. It eliminates the need for courts to decide which divorced parent
gets to take the tax deduction for children.
40. It reduces production costs for farmers and other subsidized
businesses, leading to a reduction in subsidies, thus reducing the federal
budget.
41. It eliminates the administrative costs incurred by states in
collection of state sales taxes because states will piggyback the state tax
collection onto the national tax collection, for which they are
compensated by the FairTax ?% administrative cost give-back. [Doesn't this go
to the retailers?]
42. It results in a windfall profit for many of those holding taxable
corporate high interest bonds at the time of passage of FairTax, since
they will not be taxed under FairTax. (A higher interest rate is usually
paid to entice investors to buy the corporate bonds rather than go with
the lower interest, but tax free, municipal bonds, now.)
43. It shifts the tax to consumption, which consumption tables over
time show is more stable than income, therefore the tax revenue stream is
likely to be a more stable and predictable amount.
44. It results in Federal Reserve rates being based on current
consumption, which is rather stable, instead of future earnings, which are less
predictable, resulting in surer inflation prevention.
45. It allows for better planning by businesses, because they no longer
have to consider tax implications for everything they do.
46. It makes higher employment or better compensation possible in the
small business sector where today it costs approximately three dollars
in compliance costs to pay one dollar in payroll and income taxes.
47. It moves many now providing tax preparation, advice, accounting,
planning, and records maintenance into an expansive economy where they
will be producing goods and services. There they can add to the standard
of living of all Americans and likely earn more than they do currently,
instead of shuffling paper for the government (and not contributing
anything economically to society).
48. It relieves citizens of the risk of facing the shift in burden of
proof that is so common with the current system, i.e., the taxpayer is
guilty unless innocence can be proved, when even IRS staff sometimes
give conflicting interpretations.
49. It's simple, unambiguous, and certain, the opposite of the current
tax code.
50. It's good for the environment. It reportedly would save about
300,000 trees a year that are needed to produce the paper for the IRS
compliance and tax forms, enough to reach around the equator placed end to
end 28 times. Also, since it taxes only new items, it would encourage
buying tax-free pre-owned cars, clothes, furniture, houses, etc. Reuse is
good for the environment, too.

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS ALSO:

22% of the price of all that you buy currently is tax / tax compliance cost. When that cost goes away (under the Fair Tax) the price of your $1.00 item (purchased at Wal-Mart, for example) drops in price to 78 cents (without damaging the profit margin).

1.23 X 78 cents = 96 cents.

Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!! Even with the 23% Fair Tax added on, your originally $1.00 item is now 4 cents cheaper.

The "out-of-pocket" cost of living , under the Fair Tax , will be no more than it is now.

Under the Fair Tax there are NO LOSERS, only winners, the difference being that some win BIGGER!!!! than others due to their increased FRUGALITY.

Best Regards,
John Paul McDaniel

Go to: www.fairtax.org

Hey Chug.. forget it

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 10:10pm.

Sound reasoned arguments... waste of breath.. They just come back with one liners.. of "Cut and Paste" or give you a link to Nancy Pelosi website.. Facts are facts.. C&P or not.. Snif and Jeff and a few others want to keep the IRS.. Heck even a flat tax is perferable to what we have.. They love to come back with "what is your answer" well here it is.. Got something better Jeff? Snif? or should we let the tax cheaters in charge just keep taking away our yours and mine and our childrens future away..?
However they are finding themselves on the short end of the stick.. tens of thousands nationwide are attending T.E.A. partys and letting the Goverment know we have had enough.. Change we really need. Not Liberal rhetoric..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Hey Chugalugalug

Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 6:13pm.

Do you actually know anything about the FairTax or are you just cut-and-pasting stuff. Do you work for them? I've got some questions that have never been answered but I don't want to waste mine or your time unless you're actually informed.

Jeff, our buddy chug

Submitted by sniffles5 on Sun, 03/29/2009 - 12:32am.

Our buddy Mr. Chug isn't interested in debating the Fairtax, probably because deep down he knows that it is deeply flawed legislation supported by only the very rich and the very foolish.

He spams the same cut-and-paste over and over ANOTHER SPAM LINK HERE trying to gain more weak-minded folks who hate the IRS so much that they wouldn't mind paying more under the so-called Fairtax.

Jeff and Sniffle.. Here are your answers..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 10:06pm.

won't do any good though.. you got to have an open mind.. on the subject.. Liberals like the IRS too much.. gives them the power they crave.. Its a heady feeling to be able to take other peoples money at the point of a gun..

Fairtax FACTS not just Liberal Talking Points

Do a little reading you two.. you might learn something.

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Bunk SL

Submitted by JeffC on Sun, 03/29/2009 - 11:48am.

I don't use liberal talking points. Check the history files here. I bet I know a lot more about it than you.

The two classic dodges of people who support the FairTax who can't back it up with knowledge are: "you love the IRS" and "read the book". You used them both.

OK Jeff pony up.. What is your solution

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sun, 03/29/2009 - 7:32pm.

Got something better Jeff? Snif? or should we let the tax cheaters in charge just keep taking away our yours and mine and our childrens future away..?

I asked you a question.. funny that you failed to answer..!!

You don't like the Fair Tax.. OK I can respect that.. I also believe I saw you post you don't like a Flat Tax.. So what other IRS replacement plan do you suggest??? or do you want to just leave it alone.. or add a couple more thousand or so pages to "tweak" the already bloated 10,000 page + plan already in place??? Especially since your Democrat leaders can't seem to figure out Turbo Tax..
Additionally I never said "read the book" re-read my post..Show me where I used the "read the book" defense please.. I gave you a specific link to all the info you ever could want to find.. DId you even go and read some of the research pages on it?? Come on show me your knowledge on this one.. since I obviously don't know anything about it..
Jeff don't mean to be to hard line on this one but taxes T.E.A.s me off..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Yeah SL I glanced at it

Submitted by JeffC on Sun, 03/29/2009 - 11:47pm.

Junk. Sections on illegal immigrants and gambling. Red meat for the right. The section on take home pay is about hurricane Katrina then a gross misrepresentation of the facts. I quit reading it there.

The third argument people use is "what's your better idea?"

Having questions about the FairTax in no way obligates me to propose an alternative taxation system for the country.

Before we start a discussion let me ask you the most basic question if you don't mind.

If you make $1000 week and take home $800, after the FairTax is implemented how much will you take home?

Jeff.. you disappoint me..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 8:16am.

GLANCED AT IT..???? I expect that from Sniffle, not you though.. Oh well a liberal is a liberal after all..
Like Snif I gave you all the info YOU need to answer your own questions.. It will not matter what I say.. It will be wrong, Far Right, Propaganda.. cut and paste.. blah blah blah..etc..
I again ask you.. WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?? YOu and Snif want to crap all over the Fairtax and again I say.. I can respect that.. you don't like it.. ok.. You blasted the Republican budget plan here the other day.. for not coming up with something better??? So I expect the same from you and Snif.. What is the answer... again I ask.. What do you do???
1. Leave the current plan alone.. it is fine as is..
2. "Tweak" the current tax structure.. adding thousands of pages to an already overbloated 10,000 page + structure that YOUR leaders can seem to get right..
3. Flat Tax/Fair Tax combination of both..
4. Some other plan... What is it?
We have to do something Jeff the current system is broke.. You know it.. Get past the ideology and really look at it.. This is not a Left/Right issue.. it is an American issue.. We are ALL being screwed by Washington.. when they take our taxes by force or fear of force then re-distrubute them to their own special interest PORK projects.. Do you believe it is right.. I hope not.

Fairtax THE BASICS

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Again SL

Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 10:39am.

Just because the FairTax is a hoax doesn't obligate me to restructure the US tax code. What would be the point? They would take my plan and implement it?

I've read all the FairTax stuff. Their propaganda web site has nothing new for me, I've seen it.

As to the current tax code and IRS, I was audited 5 years in a row, the net result was they owed me $1300. After the fifth year, I got my lawyer and totaled up my accounting and legal fees and sent them a copy of an harassment law suit I was going to file for the 5 figure expenses they had caused me to incur if they didn't leave me alone.

I have no love for them.

You didn't answer my take home pay question. I'm not trying to be condescending here, just wondering if you know what you're advocating. Most FairTaxers don't.

What is the difference between statutory, average, marginal Rate

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 10:54am.

"In 2004, a single individual who took the standard deduction and had an adjusted gross income of $29,051 would have been in the 25 percent tax bracket (statutory rate). In comparison, his average tax rate would have been only 10.9 percent.
This is because the standard deduction ($4,850) and personal exemption ($3,100) would have made the first $7,950 of his income free of federal income tax. The next $21,100 of his income would have been subject to the 15 percent rate. Therefore, only $1 of his income would have actually been subject to the 25 percent rate. The tax on an additional $1.00 earned would be $0.25."

Jeffs Tax Question Answered LINK

I don't expect you to re-write the code.. just apply some common sense and fairness.. You and others love to point out weak arguments and come back with "what would you do".. I love to point out Liberal HOPOCRISY"

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..

GUN CONTROL Link

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Why are you accusing me SL?

Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 2:49pm.

You write, “You and others love to point out weak arguments and come back with "what would you do".. I love to point out Liberal HOPOCRISY"

Reread your own post. I have not once asked “what would you do”, it is you asking that question of me over and over and I have no inclination at all to spend the time to propose an alternate tax system.

And you’re accusing me of having a weak argument??? I have not presented any argument at all. Because I do not know you or what you know about the FairTax, I asked you the most fundamental question about take home pay to gauge your knowledge. Instead of answering you provided me with the very weak argument of a fundamentally flawed cut and paste piece of propaganda from the FairTax web site. It ignores the fact that the persons gross pay would be reduced to his current take home pay after the FairTax is implemented. It carefully implies without saying so that they would still be bringing in the same gross pay which is manifestly untrue.

After the FairTax is implemented, your gross pay will be adjusted to your present take home pay. The taxes now withheld from your paycheck are part of the embedded taxes corporations are not paying under the FairTax. If they continue to pay them, i.e. by giving you your “whole” paycheck, then their operation costs are not reduced and therefore they will not be able to lower their prices by the 22% as claimed by the FairTaxers.

If you make $1000 and take home $800, then after the FairTax is implemented you will take home $800.

Do we agree on this point?

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Jeff not accusing you..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 3:12pm.

I am saying you have said "it will not work".. WHY.. Break the argument.. it does not matter that you disagree... that is irrelevant
Neither you or Snif have read the white pages or the reference material.. you said it yourself "I glanced at it" then you went into the typical liberal mode of talking points on Immigration blah blah blah.. and blew it off by saying "typical Conservative red meat"..
Your premise that Businesses will just keep the tax that will be removed in the overall price of the product is flawed at best.. The Free Market and competition will adjust that.. Just one of the hundreds of thoudsands of producers where to remove the imbedded cost to lower the cost of the product to get a leap on their competition and BOOM the prices across the board drops.. Jeff you are better then this you know these things.. I know you do.. Our Capitalist market will drive the price down.. Consumers will push for it.. They would not allow the price to stand..
You guys should be all for this.. You want the RICH to PAYYYY.. This does it.. The more they spend the more taxed they are.. The poor.. gets a prebate and does not pay anything on the cost of living items..
This is the GREAT equalizer.. all pay according to their means.

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..

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I'm giving up if you can't discuss it SL

Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 3:16pm.

First your comment, "Your premise that Businesses will just keep the tax that will be removed in the overall price of the product is flawed at best.."???

Where did that come from? I neither said it nor believe it.

Secondly, its a bit irritating when you fall back to broad generalizations about some fantasies that you attribute to liberal positions and then assign them to me and then denigrate the views that you have made up for me.

I know about the FairTax. I've studied it. I've even read the actual legislation. I have specific objections to the deeply flawed legislation. However, since it will never ever pass (and that's because of the flaws not some vast governmental conspiracy) I don't want to argue for the sake of arguing with a propagandist who doesn't know the legislation. That's why I keep asking you the take home pay question. Do you know your stuff or not? I don't really care I'm just judging how much time to put into it. Okay?

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Jeff agreed... Time to give it up.

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 4:25pm.

I answered your payroll questions.. see the post.. You decided not to read the White paper written on it.. I am not arguing here I am given you and Sniffle direct links to papers and studies written by people with PHDs behind their names.. Respected Research Institutes etc...EACH LINK ANSWERS DIRECTLY EVERY QUESTION YOU AND SNIFFLE HAVE ASKED.. JUST READ THE PAPER
You two are arguing with them.. Now I can admit I don't have the wits to argue with someone with a PHD on their subject.. That is why I differed to them..Arguing here is like you arguing with your doctor on what type of Medical Treatment you should receive.. Now if you have a Medical Degree argue on..or.. If you have researched your illness and you know the subject then by all means argue away, but the doc is going to want your facts not just statements of presummed facts..He/She is going to have you Break the Argument.. Nothing you or Sniffle have brought forth Breaks the Argument for the fairtax.. Let me explain Breaking the Argument.. When arguing a particular fact.. to break it you must do more then just dispute it or fail to agree.. you must present counter facts with at least as much crediblility as the original fact carried.. In other words.. argue that the PHDs are wrong.. argue that the Research Institutes are wrong.. argue that the Colleges and Universities are wrong.. prove your point.. Just coming up with an example that you say proves it will not work is only valid if a counter point cannot be offered..with as much validity as your point.. Just because you disagree DOES NOT BREAK THE ARGUMENT..
If you are not willing to read the info "I glanced at it" "Red Meat for the Conservative Crowd" those were your words.. I can't help it..
and somehow I doubt you have studied it much after those comments..

Jeff here in this thread I answered your question and the White Paper wrtten on the payroll issue.. it is your responcibility to follow through and read the info.. if not then it is not somehow my fault and automatically make me wrong..(SNIFFLE)
and if I attributed things to you while replying to Snif.. that you did not intend Sorry.. You I actually respect.. If you read my reply to Wedge on his blog you will see I am not a "Fair Taxer" per se , but I do want reform of some type.. NOW.. and agreed I am tired of the argument myself.. Like I told Sniffle.. it is not up to us individually.... CHANGE is coming.. and neither of us can stop it..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS..

GUN CONTROL Link

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Hey JeffC

Submitted by WakeUp on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 2:53pm.

No real comment, I just wanted to say hello. I hope all is well with you.

Hey WakeUp

Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 3:19pm.

We are all doing well ever since I stopped opening my stock market reports.

Hope y'all are doing well too!

Hello Mr. Fairtax fan

Submitted by sniffles5 on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 5:35pm.

Hello Mr. Fairtax fan, thank you for the umpteenth monthly cut-n-paste of FairTax propaganda.

A few months back I questioned how the FairTax was "fair" when we'd ultimately pay a lot more for gasoline. The link is LINK

Unfortunately, I could not seem to get a coherent response from any pro-Fairtax types. Perhaps you could educate me on why paying much more for gasoline is in my best interests.

I look forward to your response.

Snif got gas?

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 10:41pm.

Unfortunately, I could not seem to get a coherent response from any pro-Fairtax types. Perhaps you could educate me on why paying much more for gasoline is in my best interests.

Lesson #1 Disadvantages of current tax law and Advantages of the Fair Tax in the Gasoline Industry
LINK
Lesson #2 REAL RESEARCH
LINK
Lesson #3 FACTS NOT LIBERAL RHETORIC
LINK

Here ya go.. a reading assignment for you.. of course you and jeff probably won't read it.. so go ahead crap all over it give us some more one liners link to a couple of wacko lefty sites and go on.. you can keep paying to the Goverment all you want.. we will look for a better alternative..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

A simple question, SL...

Submitted by sniffles5 on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 12:17am.

Very nice propaganda you're serving up there, SL. Didn't answer my question, but I didn't expect you to.

Let me simplify my oil scenario even further, and see if we can have a discussion.

Consider:
Oil is a commodity.
Assume the world-wide market price of crude oil is $100 per barrel.
If the Fairtax is enacted, how much will America pay for a barrel of crude oil?

For the moment, let's leave out prebates, distribution costs, refining costs, excise taxes, drilling policy and ANWR.

I want to know one thing and one thing only here in the first round: If I am America and I buy one barrel of imported crude oil, what is the amount on the check that I write to pay for this oil?

If you can answer this for me, we'll go on to more in-depth scenarios.

Sniffle do you own work..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 7:59am.

Like a good little liberal you want to benefit from the labor of others.. I gave you a direct link to answer any question you have on the oil/Gasoline industries under the current plan and the Fairtax plan..
Try not to obfuscate the issue.. You ask I answered.. Now go do your own work..
It is only propaganda if you don't agree with it right??

Asked and Answered AGAIN

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

The answer, SL, is $130

Submitted by sniffles5 on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 8:09am.

The answer, SL, is $130.00 for a barrel of crude oil.

Crude oil imports will increase 30% under the so-called Fairtax, since the Fairtax places a tax on all imports.

The Fairtax supporters insist that wholesale price will go down a magic 22%, but a commodity is a commodity, and Uncle Sam can't go up to Mr. OPEC and say "Gee whiz, Mr. OPEC, we've passed something called a "fairtax" here...please lower your prices accordingly".

It's a simple fact that you and your fellow Fairtaxers refuse to realize.

The so-called "FairTax" is a fraud designed to increase taxes on those earning between $30K and $200K per year, and decrease taxes on those earning over $200K per year. If you think Paris Hilton needs to pay less taxes, by all means support the so-called "FairTax".

Wrong again Sniffle..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 8:18am.

But I did not expect you to get it right..
Go ahead keep your head buried.. We will work on REAL CHANGE ourselves..

AGAIN FOR THE SLOW ONES.. THE OIL QUESTIONS

READ THE INFO SNIF.. LOOK AT THE RESEARCH PAPERS.. LOOK AT THE REFERENCE MATERIAL

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Wrong? You're welcome to try and prove me wrong...

Submitted by sniffles5 on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 8:28am.

Okay, SL, if it is NOT $130 per barrel, please tell us what the price actually is then.

Tell us why imported commodities like oil won't suddenly cost 30% more if a so-called "fairtax" was enacted.

Remember: fairtax legislation calls for a 30% tax on imports.

Hard to prove a negative,.. But OK DONE

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 8:38am.

IMPORT TAX QUESTION

AGAIN SNIF READ THE REFERENCE MATERIAL YOU ARE QUIET IN-CORRECT AGAIN...

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

"Quiet In-Correct"?

Submitted by sniffles5 on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 8:50am.

Calm down, SL, you'll pop an aneurysm.

Numbers obviously scare you.

Let's try it a different way.

1. Suppose a barrel of oil costs $100 on the world market.
2. Suppose the United States implements the so-called "fairtax".
3. The so-called "fairtax" imposes a 30% tax on all imports
4. The United States would now pay $130 for a barrel of imported oil.

True or False?

C'mon, SL, you have a 50% chance of guessing correctly....

Snif.. I am calm but thanks for asking..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 10:34am.

If you would have read the material you would know the answer is FALSE.. but I don’t expect you to get it.. You have a disturbing habit of taking a position then dare anyone to prove you wrong.. I gave you the info.. you didn’t read it and somehow I am supposed to prove the negative.. for you.
Like I told Jeff.. “I gave you all the info YOU need to answer your own questions.. It will not matter what I say.. It will be wrong, Far Right, Propaganda.. cut and paste.. blah blah blah..etc..
Snif you need to understand.. I don’t CARE if you are for it or against it.. It does not matter.. History has shown us one thing.. Events will overtake us all.. You nor I will not have a choice soon..
OBAMA IS RIGHT ON ONE THING.. CHANGE IS COMING..
I guess all the Research Papers written from Scholars and all the People with PHDs are all Right Wing Conservative NUTS.. Yep obviously you know more than they do.. I and the hundreds of Researchers and Universities bow to your unlimited knowledge..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

So you say "FALSE", hmmm?

Submitted by sniffles5 on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 10:59am.

Alright then, you've indicated your belief that my premise above is "FALSE". Please tell me which of the four numbered statements above is not true. If you believe that I have committed a logical fallacy please indicate the fallacy by name if you can.

Thank you.

****sigh**** I name thee Sniffles

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 11:07am.

The Impact Of The Fair Tax On Oil And Gas

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Snif your reply cont...

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 1:06pm.

”Alright then, you've indicated your belief that my premise above is "FALSE". Please tell me which of the four numbered statements above is not true. If you believe that I have committed a logical fallacy please indicate the fallacy by name if you can.”
Well let’s give it the ole college try shall we
1. Suppose a barrel of oil costs $100 on the world market.
Interesting you used the word “Suppose” as in “Suppose the World ends tomorrow then all this is moot..”
sup•pose VERB:
sup•posed , sup•pos•ing , sup•pos•es
1. To assume to be true or real for the sake of argument or explanation: Suppose we win the lottery.
Snif you know what happens when you “ASS-U-ME..!! Can’t prove a supposition.. Logic flawed..

2. Suppose the United States implements the so-called "fairtax".
See Rule #1

3. The so-called "fairtax" imposes a 30% tax on all imports.
“ Because the FairTax is automatically border adjustable, the 17 percent competitive advantage, on average, of foreign producers is eliminated, immediately boosting U.S. competitiveness overseas. American companies doing business internationally are able to sell their goods at lower prices but at similar margins, and this brings jobs to America.

In addition, U.S. companies with investments or plants abroad bring home overseas profits without the penalty of paying income taxes, thus resulting in more U.S. capital investment.

And at last, imports and domestic production are on a level playing field. Exported goods are not subject to the FairTax, since they are not consumed in the U.S.; but imported goods sold in the U.S. are subject to the FairTax because these products are consumed domestically.”

4. The United States would now pay $130 for a barrel of imported oil.
No more corporate income taxes
More favorable interest rates
Reduction of compliance costs
“They no longer need to spend resources complying with complex employee benefit, pension, and similar tax rules. They no longer have to endure the unnecessary record keeping requirements, tax accounting, and audit costs associated with the corporate income tax.”
Thus.. less incurred cost of “doing business” means a sustainable profit margin without Government induced expenditures. The Free Market will lower the overall price from the “Supposed” price of $100 to an amount closely equal to the cost of the “23%” sales added tax.. Most imbedded “hidden taxes” have been shown to be 23% - 35% these are removed from the “cost of doing business” and then they enjoy the benefit of renewed financial growth..
A true WIN WIN Solution… but then again what does a brunch of people with PHDs know.. anyway.

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Sniffles the sharpshooter

Submitted by The Wedge on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 10:00am.

I am not a Fair Taxer per se, but I think that we are in serious need of tax reform in some way. To answer your question, I would assume that a 30% tax would raise the price of an imported barrel to $130.00. But if the plan is revenue neutral, that means that there are savings in other places. Let me ask you a question in a similar vein-- If I consume that $100.00 of oil for every $5000.00 dollars of gross income that I make, how much money more money would I have in the Fair Tax plan than currently I have, that would offset the additional tax on oil? Feel free to play stump the chump, but your argument is not that intellectual and it is a foolish comparison. I have every belief that I can intellectually hold my own against you.

Challenge accepted, Wedge!

Submitted by sniffles5 on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 11:56am.

Okay, you feel that we are in serious need of tax reform. Fair enough. Can you tell me in a few short sentences what you don't like about the existing progressive tax system? I'm curious.

Thank you for having the courage to admit that a barrel of $100 crude oil will cost $130. SLindsey can learn from your example.

I have four major issues with the so-called "fair tax":

1. Disproportional impact on certain industries, specifically transportation, health care and housing.
1a. In my original link above, I show how the so-called "fairtax" has a disproptionate adverse effect on imported commodities, the largest of which is oil, of course. As currently implemented, the so-called "fairtax" would raise gas and fuel (heating) oil prices about 22%. There is no way to achieve revenue neutrality on imported commodities. The transportation sector (trucking, hauling, taxis) would have a much higher cost basis.
1b. Health care would become taxable. Remarkably, Georgia is one of 21 states that require health insurance plans to pay any sales tax levied on health care. This WILL result in a higher premium basis. Also, the uninsured have just seen their health care costs, previously untaxed, skyrocket. I had a sick child last year that had nearly $30,000 worth of hospital bills. Had I not had insurance, a "fairtax" adjusted bill would have had me spend an additional $9,000 in taxes in the name of revenue neutrality.
1c. I've shown several examples in the past on how the so-called "fairtax" would essentially destroy the homebuilding industry. Everyone who currently owns a home is now sitting on a 30% price differential between his/her home and that of a new home ("used" Homes are not subject to the fairtax).

2. Jeffc has shown time and again how the implementation of the so-called "fairtax" will NOT increase your take home pay.

3. The so-called "fairtax" implements a tax on all imports, making it cheaper to produce things in the USA. It doesn't take into account the tit-for-tat nature of tariffs (which the so-called "fairtax" essentially is for imports). Countries undoubtedly will retaliate against our newly imposed 30% surcharge with tariffs of their own, making it more difficult to export American goods.

4. The inherent flaw of price inelasticity in professions where there is a high barrier to entry. The so-called "fairtax" model presumes that market forces will drive the purported 27% "inherent cost" down and that the savings will be passed on to the consumer. Consider industries where there are very few practitioners due to a high cost of entry (i.e. cardiac surgeon for example). My cardiac surgeon may have his costs go down, but owing to the lack of competition (who price shops surgeons?) there is no need for him/her to lower his/her prices. He/she has realized a windfall at my expense.

I won't ask you to justify the so-called "fairtax" on an intellectual basis, I think you're smarter than that. I'm simply pointing out my opinion that, in addition to having an adverse effect on taxpayers in the 30K-200K bracket, it has an adverse effect on certain industries as well.

The existing tax structure may be fundamentally flawed. I'm open to arguments as to its replacement, but I feel tha so-called "fairtax" is little more than snake-oil that depends on the average citizen's dislike of the IRS to promote a revised tax structure that would have them pay more.

Wrong again Skippy

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 3:47pm.

"Jeffc has shown time and again how the implementation of the so-called "fairtax" will NOT increase your take home pay.

and the answer is..."Let’s use a Louisiana family of four on the poverty line as an example of how the FairTax will improve the economic prospects of America’s poor. The poverty level would be approximately $25,660 for this married couple with two kids. That works out to a gross monthly paycheck of $2,138. The take-home pay under the current tax code is $1,743. With the FairTax, this family will receive a paycheck of around $2,090 after taking out Louisiana income tax. Add to that a prebate check each month in the amount of $492. With the FairTax, their monthly net income is $2,582. That is a 48 percent increase in take-home pay.

Answer to Jeffs question

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

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Ray Hoffmann is lying SL or more likely an idiot

Submitted by JeffC on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 1:25am.

Or he just doesn't understand what he's talking about. His equation assumes the big lie behind the FairTax and that is that when they say you'll take home 100% of your paycheck, that will be AFTER it is reduced by the Federal income tax now withheld. In the example above they would be reduced to the $1743 and after the rebate would have $2238 not $2582.

You can't have it both ways. You cannot claim that the embedded taxes are not going to have to be paid, thus reducing the cost of everything, and then at the same time claim that the corporations are going to give that money that they now withhold to the workers. If they did, then there is no net savings to the companies. It defies logic.

If they did do this, the cost would only be reduced by 10% not 22%. The FairTax.org people used to have this on their web site in a breakdown showing that 12% of the embedded cost they're claiming savings of came from withholding. I argued with them on the web site pointing out the logical fallacy in their argument which they denied. When I accused them of deliberately misrepresenting the take home pay issue they deleted all my post and removed the cost breakdown from their web site.

The plan is a fraud as it is presented because they know that this point kills any support. That's why Boortz left it out of his book and had to "clarify" it on his web site which 99% of the people never see.

The FairTax concept came from the work of Dr. Dale Jorgenson, then chairman of the Harvard Economics Department, who is quoted extensively in the FairTax book.

Dr. Jorgenson was asked specifically about the question of whether or not people’s paychecks would be reduced from their gross pay amount to their net pay amount.

Dr. Jorgenson replied: “A more reasonable interpretation of my 1996 testimony is that workers would keep that after-tax pay; producers' prices would fall, but retail prices would be increased by the national retail sales tax.”

AFTER TAX PAY!

Asked to further clarify so that there could be no misinterpretation as to the specific question: “when you say "workers would keep that after-tax pay" are you saying that if they are making $1000 a week now, and paying $200 payroll+income taxes now, that under the FairTax you were assuming that workers would get paid $800 and keep all of that? Or are you saying that you meant they would make $1000 under the FairTax?”

Dr Jorgenson responded: “I am saying that the worker would continue to receive the after-tax amount of $800.”

Here's the link to the PhD that thought the FairTax up clarifying ths point:

Dr. Dale Jorgenson, Harvard University

Here is Boortz web site section on the FairTax Blog:

"We write in The FairTax Book that the competitive pressures of the marketplace will force prices down when embedded taxes disappear from the cost of retail goods and services, and we cite 22% as the average amount of those embedded taxes. Does this 22% include the income and payroll taxes that are paid by employees? Yes, it does. So ... what does this mean to your paycheck after the FairTax becomes law? When the FairTax is implemented… He (your employer) will either take some or the entire amount he had been withholding for federal income and payroll taxes and add it to your weekly check, or he will readjust your pay figures so that your entire paycheck will be equal to what you used to call “take home pay” before the FairTax."

Boortz Clarifies Keep 100% of Your Paycheck

You tell me to look at the FairTax propaganda site? You look at it and show me anywhere where they address this and admit it. They don't. Anywhere. Because they know this is a killer issue for them.

The whole FairTax is an illogical fraud and we haven't even gotten into what's in the legislation.

Here's the concept in a nutshell, businesses and individuals don't pay Federal taxes and a host of other taxes which reduces cost by 22% and then we have a 22% sales tax which covers everything? Essentially everything comes out even and nobody pays income taxes. Sounds good. To good to be true in fact. The fact is that we are now, this very day, paying these embedded cost in everything we buy right? Yet the government is still collecting hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in income tax. What makes up the difference? Where does the money that is now collected in income tax above the amounts withheld come from under the FairTax?

So don't point me to a speech made by some kook somewhere and don't tell me to read the FairTax books or give me a link to their web site and tell me to educate myself or pontificate about me being a typical liberal craving big government. Educate your own self and when you can answer my questions then we can discuss the specific flaws in the actual legislation.

I've got a list of them.

yep Jeff.. all them PHDers are all lying..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 7:32am.

and ALL the COLLEGE and UNIVERSITIES and ALL the RESEARCH INSTITUTES and ALL the JOUNALIST.. and ALL the SUPPORTERS..
Jeff I am not trying to convince you or Sniffles.. you guys have proved you will not accept a debate on the subject..
I just find it the height of HIPOCRISY to say that you know more then everyone that has studied this for years and don't kid yourself that IS what you are saying..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Its you who won't debate it SL

Submitted by JeffC on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 12:06pm.

That ALL the researchers line is baloney.

I gave you a link to Dr. Dale Jorgenson, then chairman of the Harvard Economics Department, who developed the FairTax saying that your income will be reduced from your gross pay to your present take home pay AND I gave you a link to Boortz's web site saying exactly the same thing and you still won't either acknowledge that fact or offer any refutation.

Every example you have given starts with an assumed take home pay and then calculates some aspect of the tax, totally avoiding the crucial issue of the initial reduction in income.

Apparently you believe the FairTax is a magic tax that gets rid of the IRS and gives everybody a 22% salary increase. If it does that then I'm certainly for it. If it does that, why do you think it has never gotten out of committee? Because of some grand conspiracy between both political parties in Congress afraid of losing the power they wield through manipulation of the tax code?

I believe that even Darth would be dubious.

Jeff Point and Counter Point

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 12:31pm.

asked and answered.. You gave your source I gave mine..but somehow yours has more credibility??? You still have not broken the argument.. I am tired of the argument.. for me this ends this line of thought.. Thanks, however for participating in my blog it has indeed been informative..

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Another LINK to the Take home pay issue..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 8:10pm.

TAKE HOME PAY QUESTION

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

SL: Neal Boortz says you are mistaken

Submitted by sniffles5 on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 3:56pm.

Your example is flawed, and Neal Boortz says so.

Quoting Neal here: LINK

When the FairTax is implemented, and when business and personal income and payroll taxes disappear, your employer is going to have to make a decision. He will either take some or the entire amount he had been withholding for federal income and payroll taxes and add it to your weekly check, or he will readjust your pay figures so that your entire paycheck will be equal to what you used to call "take home pay" before the FairTax. The employer may also decide to do a little of both. Either way, you can see that the amount of money you actually receive as pay – the amount you can put into your bank account – will not decrease, and may actually increase.

Now I know you have a tremendous comprehension problem so let me put it in terms even you can understand: If an employer wants to realize any of these 22% "compliance cost" savings of the so-called "fairtax", she/he will need to REDUCE your pay to it's current "take home" amount.

Don't blame me....blame Neal.
(hat tip to Jeffc for pointing me towards this)

It must be frustrating to be proven wrong on so many issues related to the fairtax, SL....I'll bet you really thought you knew what the fairtax did.

Snif.. your own quote proves my point.. amazing..

Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 4:13pm.

"The employer may also decide to do a little of both. Either way, you can see that the amount of money you actually receive as pay – the amount you can put into your bank account – will not decrease, and may actually increase."

You actually just proved my point..

Snif it is amazing to see what I have known about you all along.. you are so BLINDED by ideology that you will glom onto anything that fits your warped views.. You used a quote from Boortz in an attempt to back up Jeff's argument that you will not see an increase in take home pay.. when the "quote" you used he said it probrally will.. and you still used it... amazing.. The Attached LINK below clearly shows the research behind it and clearly proves that your take home pay will increase.. I gave you the example of the Louisanna family and its asscociated link..

Boortz a sponsor of the plan and Radio Talk Show host clearly backs up what I have been saying.. You at leasted linked to a real site so everyone can read the entire text not a small excerpt.. You and Jeff have to read the whole paper not just what you want to see to dispute an argument...

The With holding debate link

Sniffle just because you disagree with me.. DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT it is only your OPINION.. I am giving RESEARCH LINKS from people I bet are a lot more intellegent then you and Jeff.. but maybe not please scan your PHD Diploma and then I will admit you know all about this.. Please scan in your white papers, your published studies..
If not then:
BREAK THE ARGUMENT
Nothing you or Jeff have brought forth Breaks the Argument for the fairtax.. Let me explain Breaking the Argument.. When arguing a particular fact.. to break it you must do more then just dispute it or fail to agree.. you must present counter facts with at least as much crediblility as the original fact carried.. In other words.. argue that the PHDs are wrong.. argue that the Research Institutes are wrong.. argue that the Colleges and Universities are wrong.. prove your point.. Just coming up with an example that you say proves it will not work is only valid if a counter point cannot be offered..with as much validity as your point.. Just because you disagree DOES NOT BREAK THE ARGUMENT..OR PROVE ME WRONG..

I am RIGHT you are WRONG END OF STORY

I will not lower my standards.. So UP YOURS.. Evil

GUN CONTROL Link

Sniffle-

Submitted by The Wedge on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 12:18pm.

I dislike the truncated views of the replies as we go further down a reply threead. I will cut and paste your note to my blog and then reply to it. Look for it there tonight after I am done working

But Then geithner-TAX CHEAT In Charge

Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 9:15am.

would have to pay taxes, and so would all of the other low life politicians.

That is the real reason we will never have a fair tax. If we did ALL of the crooked politicians (which is all of them) would have to start to pay their fair share, and no tax attorney would ever get them out of it.

Tax reform is never going to

Submitted by Voice of Fayett... on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 5:47am.

Tax reform is never going to happen. With inept, bumbling Republican Congressmen like our own Westmoreland (the "donothinger" Congressman) you will have a better chance of seeing America join the European Union than reform its tax code. I do agree though that Republicans don't get it.

Just Republican's?

Submitted by Dondol on Sat, 03/28/2009 - 3:01pm.

NAW, Their all Scum sucking bottom feeders. Doesn't matter which side of the fence that you set on, nether party is going to change anything that does not Directly Benefit THEM. We're way past them worrying about us, all that they worry about is whats going to happen in the next election, Nothing More, Nothing Less.

Obama's weapon of Choice!

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