The Obama Presidency: Here comes socialism

2009-2010 will rank with 1913-1914, 1933-1936, 1964-1965 and 1981-1982 as years that will permanently change our government, politics and lives.

Just as the stars were aligned for Wilson, Roosevelt, Johnson and Reagan, they are aligned for Barack Obama. Simply put, we enter his administration as free enterprise, market-dominated, laissez-faire America. We will shortly become like Germany, France, the United Kingdom or Sweden — a socialist democracy in which the government dominates the economy, determines private sector priorities and offers a vastly expanded range of services to many more people at much higher taxes.

Obama will accomplish his agenda of “reform” under the rubric of “recovery.” Using the electoral mandate bestowed on a Democratic Congress by restless voters and the economic power given his administration by terrified Americans, he will change our country fundamentally in the name of lifting the depression. His stimulus packages won’t do much to shorten the downturn — although they will make it less painful — but they will do a great deal to change our nation.

In implementing his agenda, Obama will emulate the example of Franklin D. Roosevelt (not the liberal mythology of the New Deal, but the actuality of what it accomplished).

When FDR took office, he was enormously successful in averting a total collapse of the banking system and the economy. But his New Deal measures only succeeded in lowering the unemployment rate from 23 percent in 1933 when he took office to 13 percent in the summer of 1937. It never went lower.

And his policies of over-regulation generated such business uncertainty that they triggered a second-term recession. Unemployment rose to 17 percent in 1938 and, in 1940, on the verge of the war-driven recovery, stood at 15 percent. (These data and the real story of Hoover’s and Roosevelt’s missteps, uncolored by ideology, are available in “The Forgotten Man” by Amity Shlaes.)

But in the name of a largely unsuccessful effort to end the depression, Roosevelt passed crucial and permanent reforms that have dominated our lives ever since, including Social Security, the creation of the SEC, unionization under the Wagner Act, the federal minimum wage and a host of other fundamental changes.

Obama’s record will be similar, although less wise and more destructive. He will begin by passing every program for which liberals have lusted for decades, from alternative energy sources to school renovations to infrastructure repairs to technology enhancements.

These are all good programs, but they normally would be stretched out for years. Freed of any constraint on the deficit — indeed empowered by a mandate to raise it as high as possible — Obama will do them all rather quickly.

But it is not his spending that will transform our political system; it is his tax and welfare policies. In the name of short-term stimulus, he will give every American family (who makes less than $200,000) a welfare check of $1,000 euphemistically called a refundable tax credit. And he will so sharply cut taxes on the middle class and the poor that the number of Americans who pay no federal income tax will rise from the current one-third of all households to more than half.

In the process, he will create a permanent electoral majority that does not pay taxes, but counts on ever expanding welfare checks from the government. The dependency on the dole, formerly limited in pre-Clinton days to 14 million women and children on AFDC, will now grow to a clear majority of the U.S. population.

Will he raise taxes? Why should he? With a congressional mandate to run the deficit up as high as need be, there is no reason to raise taxes now and risk aggravating the depression.

Instead, Obama will follow the opposite of the Reagan strategy. Reagan cut taxes and increased the deficit so that liberals could not increase spending. Obama will raise spending and increase the deficit so that conservatives cannot cut taxes. And when the economy is restored, he will raise taxes with impunity since the only people who would have to pay them would be rich Republicans.

In the name of stabilizing the banking system, Obama will nationalize it. Using TARP funds to write generous checks to needy financial institutions, his administration will demand preferred stock in exchange. Preferred stock gets dividends before common stockholders do. With the massive debt these companies will owe to the government, they will only be able to afford dividends for preferred stockholders — the government, not private investors. So who will buy common stock? And the government will demand that its bills be paid before any profits that might materialize are reinvested in the financial institution. So how will the value of the stocks ever grow? Devoid of private investors, these institutions will fall ever more under government control.

Obama will begin the process by limiting executive compensation. Then he will urge restructuring and lowering of home mortgages in danger of default (as the feds have already done with Citibank). Then will come guidance on which loans to make and government instructions on the types of enterprises to favor.

God grant that some Blagojevich-type is not in charge of the program, using his power to line his pockets. The United States will find itself with an economic system comparable to Japan’s, where the all-powerful bureaucracy at MITI (Ministry of International Trade and Industry) manages the economy, often making mistakes like giving mainframe computers priority over the development of laptops.

But it is the health care system that will experience the most dramatic and traumatic of changes. The current debate between a Medicare-like governmental single-payer plan and a channeling of coverage through private insurance misses the essential point.

Without a lot more doctors, nurses, clinics, equipment and hospital beds, health resources will be strained to the breaking point. The people and equipment that currently serve 250 million Americans and largely neglect all but the emergency needs of the other 50 million will now have to serve everyone.

And as government imposes ever more draconian price controls and income limits on doctors, the supply of practitioners and equipment will decline as the demand escalates. Price increases will be out of the question so the government will impose health care rationing, denying the older and sicker among us the care they need and even barring them from paying for it themselves. (Rationing based on income and price will be seen as immoral).

And Obama will move to change permanently the partisan balance in America. He will move quickly to legalize all those who have been in America for five years, albeit illegally, and to smooth their paths to citizenship and voting. He will weaken border controls in an attempt to hike the Latino vote as high as he can in order to make red states like Texas into blue states like California. By the time he is finished, Latinos and African-Americans will cast a combined 30 percent of the vote. If they go by top-heavy margins for the Democrats, as they did in 2008, it will assure Democratic domination — until they move up the economic ladder and become good Republicans.

And he will enact the check-off card system for determining labor union representation, repealing the secret ballot in union elections. The result will be to raise the proportion of the labor force in unions up to the high teens from the current level of about 12 percent.

Finally, he will use the expansive powers of the Federal Communications Commission to impose “local” control and ownership of radio stations and to impose the “fairness doctrine” on talk radio. The effect will be to drive talk radio to the Internet, fundamentally change its economics and retard its growth for years hence.

But none of these changes will cure the depression. It will end when the private sector works through the high debt levels that triggered the collapse in the first place. And then, the large stimulus package deficits will likely lead to rapid inflation, probably necessitating a second recession to cure it.

So Obama’s name will be mud by 2012 and probably by 2010, as well. And the Republican Party will make big gains and regain much of its lost power.

But it will be too late to reverse the socialism of much of the economy, the demographic change in the electorate, the rationing of health care by the government, the surge of unionization and the crippling of talk radio.

[Dick Morris, former political consultant and pollster, writes a nationally syndicated political column and provides commentary for Fox News.] COPYRIGHT 2009 DICK MORRIS AND EILEEN MCGANN, DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

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S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 11:39am.

Pushing for his own deficit spending economic stimulus package in 1971, President Richard Nixon famously told ABC News, "I am now a Keynesian in economics." Increasingly it seems that everyone on Capitol Hill is adopting Nixon's economic views ... but a thousand times worse. Where Nixon wanted to deficit spend by mere billions, President Barack Obama wants to deficit spend in the trillions. According to the suddenly back in style Keynesian theory, government can stimulate economic growth by temporarily increasing government spending. Problem is, there was nothing temporary about increases in government spending under Nixon and there is nothing temporary about the trillion dollars in new spending currently being debated in Congress.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) told Politico yesterday: "Yes we wrote the bill. Yes, we won the election." The House bill perfectly demonstrates how the left is using the economic stimulus bill as cover to accomplish their long held desire to permanently increase the size of the federal government, with little or no benefit to the American taxpayer.

Today's top six disastrous highlights are:

1. Medicaid Bailout:The House bill includes $87 billion bailout for state Medicaid spending. Supposedly, this federal spigot will expire in two years but there is simply no reason to believe states will be prepared to meet their Medicaid obligations any more in 2011 than they are today. Medicaid is funded by a formula that matches state spending levels with federal dollars. If we keep bailing states out they will have every incentive to continue their irresponsible spending. For example, Gov. Rod Blagojevich (D-IL) has significantly expanded health care spending in Illinois while Gov. Mitch Daniels (R-IN) has prudently made the "hard choices" necessary to maintain adequate reserves. When they bailout comes, Indiana taxpayers are going to have to pay for Gov. Blagojevich's mistakes.

2. Medicaid Expansion:The House bill expands Medicaid eligibility to cover unemployed workers whose income does not exceed 200% of the Federal Poverty Line. This provision will also supposedly expire in two years, but does anyone really believe that once states have put these new populations on the Medicaid roles that the political will exists at the state or federal level to kick them off? No. States will push for this program expansion indefinitely and neither the White House or this congressional leadership is ideologically pre-disposed to say no. Mark our words, this is a permanent expansion of the program.

3. Family Planning Loophole:Section 5004 of the Medicaid expansion includes language that smuggles the left's social agenda into law under the guise of stimulus. This section undercuts parental authority and expands control of taxpayer dollars by family planning clinics, and exactly who is eligible to receive these benefits. Contrary to current laws, the income of parents or even a spouse would not be counted in determining eligibility, so a child in a family at any income level may be eligible for free family planning services. And thanks to the "presumptive eligibility period" in the legislation, no parent ever needs to be notified that their child applied for Medicaid. Finally, applicants would not have to prove their citizenship before their "presumptive eligibility" is determined.

4. Education Bailout: The House bill also creates a $79 billion State Fiscal Stabilization Fund to help states pay for public services, 61% of which must be spent on education. Not only does this money incentivize states to not make tough budgeting decisions, but it also comes with new federal restrictions designed to please leftist constituency groups. For example, the legislation forbids bailout funds require that "no recipient of funds under this title shall use funds to provide financial assistance to students to attend private elementary or secondary schools."

5. Expanded Education Spending:In addition to the $79 billion education bailout, the House bill also includes expanded spending for a slew of other programs, bringing the total education stimulus price tag to $142 billion. Winners of this round of spending include $1 billion for Technology Education, $1.5 billion for Pell Grants, $6 billion for higher education institutions, $2.1 billion for Head Start, $2.5 billion for the National Science Foundation, and $2 billion in Child Care Development Block Grants. Are any of these spending increases even intended to be temporary? Can you possibly imagine Democrats in Congress standing up to cut Head Start and Pell Grant funding in two years. Of course not. This $142 billion education spending increase is nearly double the total outlays for the Department of Education in 2007.

6. New Jobs? While President Obama has said the stimulus could create as many as 3 million jobs, Speaker Pelosi said yesterday that 4 million jobs will be created or saved. Yet, when pressed by Congressman Camp (R-MI) this week, Tax Committee Staffer Thomas Barthold could only shrug and admit that they had no estimates that any jobs or economic growth would be created by this legislation. The Video is priceless.

Some legislators are beginning to catch on to the left's game. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) says he opposes the Medicaid bailout "because some governors would use the money to mask poor decisions in other portions of their budgets." Rep. Heath Shuler (D-TN) claims "he is concerned about returning fiscal responsibility to Washington" and says the stimulus bill "can’t be the pet projects of the House and Senate."

It's time to wake up. This stimulus bill is nothing but the permanent implementation of the pet projects of the House and Senate. And that is exactly why Speaker Pelosi doesn't want you to know what's in it, and certainly doesn't want it to be debated. "We're on our timetable." she said unapologetically yesterday. There is nothing temporary about any of the spending increases in this bill. They are all designed to make the American people more dependent on the federal government. And there is nothing stimulating about that. Let's hope they get on the timetable of the American people before it is too late.


Submitted by robertjacks on Sat, 01/24/2009 - 9:25pm.

In this day of unparalled economic & societal challenges facing this county and this country, I am alarmed and shocked at the continued level of disrespect & bias against President Obama and his initiatives.

He has been in office for barely one week and has been labled a Socialist without the opportunity to demonstrate the ability to activate his programs. Already, he has clearly demonstrated a level of managerial competence that was severely lacking over the last 8 years.

As I read the commentaries online from both national pundits and local blogers, it is growing more apparent that political naysayers will become more audacious in pushing fear and misunderstanding around the country with no thought of the reprecussions.

The Audacity of Fear will further push the racial and economic divisions that divide us. For the sake of our children and our country, we must evolve and become open to new ideas and new leaders. Change only occurs when we have the courage to choose a diffrent road.

If there was every time to stop promoting fear, now is that moment. Our destinies are intertwined tightly and we must work in unity and set aside our political & idiological differences once and for all.

MGChapman's picture
Submitted by MGChapman on Mon, 01/26/2009 - 8:22am.

This is not rocket science. Obama labeled himself a socialist by espousing socialist ideals, e.g. his "spread the wealth" philosophy. Your post, while eloquent, is completely without substance. Pretty sentence structure will not solve our problems, although it seems to have a profound effect on the ignorant.
The same people who thought it fair to compare President Bush with Adolph Hitler and had the class to boo him at Obama's inauguration think it unfair to criticize BHO, a man with less executive experience than Harold Logsdon.


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sat, 02/07/2009 - 4:38pm.

WE WON! Laughing out loud Seeing President Barack Obama for the next 4 years, minimum, is the consequence. Next time, you might encourage your party to bring more inspirational and intellectual leaders (Like Jon Kyl R-Az) to the battle. It's not our fault that you guys are stuck throwing socialism around as if Ronald Reagan didn't fully support every single social program we have running now. Victory will only be realized by finding your voice, not trying to drown out The Presidents. After all, the media loves him and they won't let you wrestle the bully pull pit bull horn away from him Smiling.


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 10:37pm.

Do you mean like it has been the last 8 years.. What chance was Bush ever given.. The dems would vote for something then go to the media and excoriate President Bush for doing what they just voted for.. The war comes to mind...
I am all about not acting like the Democrats have and give this guy a chance, but he will have to prove himself to me before I to worship at the alter.


Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 12:20am.

has never worked.

Your hero, our new president was labled a "socialist" almost 2 yrs. ago. This grand title didn't just come about in the last week.

Now where are all of the free entitlement programs I was promised in all of his campaign promises? I want my free stuff that this country owes me, where is it??? Please tell me I don't have to get off my couch to get all of them. I don't feel like working, and this country owes me. So again where is all of the free stuff I was promised?

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 9:25am.

Obama is very careful with his words. I believe that if you were to go back and review his statements you'll find that you were not going to get the free stuff. You were the one who was going to be paying for other peoples free stuff.


Submitted by skyspy on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 10:59pm.

No misunderstanding. Just a healthy dose of my cynical sarcasim.

Now I have to get ready for work so all of the freeloaders can live off of the taxes I pay. The best revenge would be to just stop working.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 01/26/2009 - 12:21am.

I gotta work too. The very best revenge would be to quit work and just fish for tarpon and bonefish.

I've got a friend in Tampa, Randy Wayne White, whose an author; writes the Doc Ford novels. Great stuff. He also writes an adventure column for Outside Magazine. Anyway, he wanted some night vision goggles but they were too expensive so he figured out a way to get Outside to buy them for him. He got them to fish tarpon at night and wrote about it for Outside.

Let There Be Light

He's a scream. I stayed with him after his house was damaged by the hurricane a few years ago. It started raining and he had no roof so we sat under a sheet of plywood we nailed over us in his dining room and drank wine all night trading stories. Google "Outside magazine Randy White" and you can read some of his other stuff.


Submitted by skyspy on Mon, 01/26/2009 - 6:00am.

I will definitly check out his other articles and books.

My accountant has informed me that the only way I could keep more of the money I earn would be to start a buisness and make sure that it failed miserably. That is right I would have to F-A-I-L in order to keep more of my money. It just seems like we have made a wrong turn when people are rewarded for failing instead of working hard. I'm sick of getting hit with the AMT every year.

Ok enough of my rant, have a good day.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 01/24/2009 - 9:41pm.

Many people here can't give Obama a chance. He repudiates everything they've been supporting for years. To give Obama a chance would be tantamount to admitting that they have been wrong. It ain't gonna happen. You don't have to stress over it though. Be confident that time will prove you right and they will eventually convince themselves that thy didn't support all those things and that they supported rational policies all along. It happens all the time. Chill. Give the process time to work.


Submitted by Davids mom on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 4:56pm.

It looks like 'we the people' have allowed local and state politicos to play with the allotted federal funds rather than use them wisely. Will 'we' let that happen again? Regarding Head Start. Why would anyone cut funding if we had children still coming to school years behind those children who came from homes where good parenting abounds? I would want to read the bills to see where Parent Education is addressed in this funding. We the people have a great responsibility in order to save this country!! If you're writing your representative; attending local government meetings; and making sure that what you fear will happen doesn't happen - then you're doing your job. I know you're involved!

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 7:41pm.

We have allowed our goverment to run itself for too long..
Criminals should not watch over other criminals..
Everyone no matter who you voted for needs to be aware of what is happening in DC.. Wrong is wrong.. It's our money and I want it back..


Submitted by whitegirl2008 on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 10:50am.

deleted

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 10:58am.

CAL.. HERE IS ONE FOR THE TRASH CAN


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 9:05pm.

and Barack H. Obama is it.. Socialism has worked everywhere it has been tried.. I mean look at France.. Look at what a industrial power house it is.. and North Korea.. and wow look at Cuba. They are famous for their cigars..Laos and Vietnam.. famous for their exports as well..mainly young females who have an extensive knowledge of Finger nails..
Yep.. Socialism is here.. Live it.. Love it or Leave it..


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 6:04am.

We aren't exactly in a position to preach to any country the virtues of capitalism right now!

It reminds me a little of how quick one can fill up a water bucket. If one uses an eye dropper the bucket won't have a spill when filled.
But if one uses a fire hose, it will not only never fill the bucket but will flood the whole area!
Our capitalistic system during the last eight years used a fire hose!

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 8:57am.

It amazes me how many people gives up when times get tough.. THANK GOD our Grandfathers did not just give up during the depression.. we would all be speaking German or Japanese..
People wake up and pull your head out of your butts... Capitialism did not do this to us.. OUR GOVERMENT did.. We let it happen.. The whole world is in the same boat or worse.. not just us.. Russia has shutdown many of the markets as well as China and Korea..
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.. Capitalism is still the best thing going or have you forgotten this Country is only 233 or so years old and we are the powerhouse of the world.. We feed the world and export our goods world wide.. not to mention the new technologies we have invented..
Name one thing of world changing significance any Socialist Country has produced in the last 50 years that we did not do it better.. Socialism will not allow that kind of innovation.. Capitalism does..


Submitted by Davids mom on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 10:05am.

OUR GOVERMENT did.. We let it happen I agree! Our government of the people, by the people, for the people. As many here are keeping an eye on the local governments in Fayette County - all of us must do the same with our state and federal government. China has even implemented aspects of Capitalism - and it's a Communist country. It's important to focus on the achievements of an ideology - rather than its' name.

Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 1:51pm.

1. The House Democrats' bill will cost each and every household $6,700 additional debt, paid for by our children and grandchildren.

2. The total cost of this one piece of legislation is almost as much as the annual discretionary budget for the entire federal government.

3. President-elect Obama has said that his proposed stimulus legislation will create or save three million jobs. This means that this legislation will spend about $275,000 per job. The average household income in the U.S. is $50,000 a year.

4. The House Democrats' bill provides enough spending - $825 billion - to give every man, woman, and child in America $2,700.

5. $825 billion is enough to give every person living in poverty in the U.S. $22,000.

6. $825 billion is enough to give every person in Ohio $72,000.

7. Although the House Democrats' proposal has been billed as a transportation and infrastructure investment package, in actuality only $30 billion of the bill - or three percent - is for road and highway spending. A recent study from the Congressional Budget Office said that only 25 percent of infrastructure dollars can be spent in the first year, making the one year total less than $7 billion for infrastructure.

8. Much of the funding within the House Democrats' proposal will go to programs that already have large, unexpended balances. For example, the bill provides $1 billion for Community Development Block Grants (CDBG), which already have $16 billion on hand. And, this year, Congress has plans to rescind $9 billion in highway funding that the states have not yet used.

9. In 1993, the unemployment rate was virtually the same as the rate today (around seven percent). Yet, then-President Clinton's proposed stimulus legislation ONLY contained $16 billion in spending.

10. Here are just a few of the programs and projects that have been included in the House Democrats' proposal:

$650 million for digital TV coupons.
$6 billion for colleges/universities - many which have billion dollar endowments.
$166 billion in direct aid to states - many of which have failed to budget wisely.
$50 million in funding for the National Endowment of the Arts.
$44 million for repairs to U.S. Department of Agriculture headquarters.
$200 million for the National Mall, including grass planting.
$400 million for "National Treasures."

11. Almost one-third of the so called tax relief in the House Democrats' bill is spending in disguise, meaning that true tax relief makes up only 24 percent of the total package - not the 40 percent that President-elect Obama had requested.

12. $825 billion is just the beginning - many Capitol Hill Democrats want to spend even more taxpayer dollars on their "stimulus" plan.


MGChapman's picture
Submitted by MGChapman on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 8:52am.

Capitalism works fine as long as you don't try to hybridize it with socialism. Our current financial crisis, contrary to popular belief, is a direct result of applying socialist policies to the banking industry. "Corporate greed" and "Wall Street Bailout" are merely catchphrases designed to shift the attention away from the real issue: government meddling with free markets.
If the Carter and Clinton administrations had left the banks alone, the subprime/Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac debacle would not have happened and we would not be in this mess. The Bush administration's reaction to the situation may prove to be disastrous as well, but the blame for causing it rests solely on the Left.
The current state of our economy is a direct result of the socialist policies of the Democrats who, ironically, are now in complete control of the system they've been sabotaging for decades. The fox is now guarding the henhouse. This does not bode well for us chickens...


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 11:16pm.

Mysterylindseygarvinhobbs: You guys are all singing the same socialism socialism blah blah blah that lost you guys your political butts in 08. Please, by all means, continue the losing diatribe. If only Ron Paul or John McCain or Mitt what's my opinion today Romni could have won! Everything would be all better, right? The unregulated free market that we have been waiting to do its magic would have finally kicked in! But instead we have this non-impulsive, very inclusive "thinker" instead! And a popular one at that! Rats!!!!

I'm saying goodbye to the acknowledgment of the "socialism" "socialism" crowd. It's more fun arguing with the anti-abortion folks as they briskly walk out of Starship with their heads bowed.

I'm just glad the new administration is ending things like completely warrantless wiretapping on Americans and the like.

A last little warning for Eileen McGann: If DICK Morris asks you to come to his hotel room for a late night conference call,

Wear your chastity belt. And don't accept his money as prostitution is illegal most places.


Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:43pm.

Obama flashes irritation in press room

barry can't answer a simple question. It must be above his pay grade.


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 11:53pm.

to ignore your ignorance on this one....

"Are you kidding me.. Do you think the Goverment has the time to worry about you and what you tell your wife or (whatever)on the phone?"

Ummm.... YES!

"This has been hashed over and over.. NAME ME ONE TIME THAT A CITIZEN HAS HAD HIS PHONE TAPPED BY THE GOVERMENT WITHOUT A WARRANT.. Go ahead I dare you..(Caveat: Patriot Act only please.. Talking about the Federal Goverment.. specifically BUSH)"

How 'bout THIS?

"I know I have to add that because if I don't you would come up with some off the wall example."

Are NSA employees "off the wall?"

"If you where linked to a known terrorist or where calling a known terriorist cell maybe.. but really.. average Americans phones being tapped.. Get real Diva.. pull your head out of your butt and GET OVER BUSH."

Are military officers now "terrorists?" Here is a self portrait of you right about now, bro. Maybe some GLADE will help


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 10:48pm.

Diva.. Winer did it for me.. Please try a little harder.. it was way too easy.. Heck I did not even have to do it myself..
Again.. Please try to stay focused.. I used the caveat "Patriot Act Only.." you come back with Military mail.. I also specifically was talking about "REGULAR CITIZENS" not Goverment employees which sign a disclosure contract knowing full well they may be intercepted..
Now I will ask you again.. Bring me a case in US Federal courts of "Joe Citizen" having an illegal wiretap by the Goverment using the Patriot Act.. and having such tap proved to be illegal..
and again.. I DARE YOU..


Submitted by winer on Sat, 01/24/2009 - 10:10am.

Diva, military officers all know that their conversations can be observed any time they are using a phone that belongs to their employer. Just like any other US employer can legally listen to any phone call and read any email sent or received on their computers.

The CNN story you referenced is a bunch of hogwash. GI’s have had their mail censored for a long time. Have you ever seen some of the letters they sent home from the WWII era? Some look like Swiss cheese with any possible reference to location or mission cut out. Reading mail, email or listening to conversations is not new to the military under the Bush administration.

This wacky story explains the reason why these particular conversations were examined but as usual, they attempt to bury the pertinent information in sensationalism. Both of the NSA linguists interviewed for a newly published book (that is why the story exists – to promote a book) were Arabic linguists. Their job was to translate into English from an Arabic language.

Does it surprise you that the National Security Agency would be interested in phone calls placed overseas where the conversations were in an “Arabic” language, even if it involved military officers? It can only be determined that a conversation contains “innocent pillow talk” if someone is listening and translating the conversation.

Illegal wiretapping may have occurred but this isn't the evidence you claim it is!

diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 2:19pm.

Check this excerpt from the CNN story:

"Adrienne Kinne, a former U.S. Army Reserves Arab linguist, told ABC News the NSA was listening to the phone calls of U.S. military officers, journalists and aid workers overseas who were talking about "personal, private things with Americans who are not in any way, shape or form associated with anything to do with terrorism."

Journalists and aid workers...... You were saying, WINER? You were re-iterating S. Lindsey? This IS under the Patriot Act, and, last I checked, journalists are not government employees, military officers are not terrorists, and these activities were outside of the realm of law. I know.. I know... The "realm" of law is a difficult concept for you two these days, but stay with me here....

Your argument has yet another serious problem my friends. If you are saying the two NSA employees who provided this information are pushing what is, in your words, "a bunch of hogwash," that means that the folks executing the questionable tapping of calls and electronic communications of American citizens are not people that we can trust.

So, winer, S. Lindsey: Which is it?

A. Are we coming off of an administration that intercepted message traffic not specifically authorized by law or...
B. Do we have a top secret agency which operated with dishonest, untrustworthy personnel. Either way, in my estimation, this is a serious problem. Can't wait to read your enlightened input about employers legally spying on employees.

Cheers

Hogwash? Sure, I'll have one of those..

ps. Lindsey? What in the world is a "military disclosure contract?" Just how much can you hide in your buttocks? You just keep pulling stuff out of it like one of those circus clown cars; one midget after another after another......


Submitted by winer on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 5:13pm.

I do know from a long, informative conversation with a journalist who had spent time with troops out in the field that they do have to agree to a contract. Many journalist who are imbedded with presidential candidates often have to sign agreement/contracts that specify what they can release. I know these types of agreements existed back during the Vietnam War era. It would not surprise me to find out that even aid workers have to sign agreements when they go into a militarized zone.

I never claimed these NSA employees were pushing hogwash. I said the the CNN article was written with a specific slant and that the entire purpose of this article was based on pushing a newly published book- that it amounted to hogwash to prove Diva's claim.

CNN: ***Adrienne Kinne, a former U.S. Army Reserves Arab linguist, told ABC News the NSA was listening to the phone calls of U.S. military officers, journalists and aid workers overseas who were talking about "personal, private things with Americans who are not in any way, shape or form associated with anything to do with terrorism."

David Murfee Faulk, a former U.S. Navy Arab linguist, said in the news report that he and his colleagues were listening to the conversations of military officers in Iraq who were talking with their spouses or girlfriends in the United States.***

Neither Kinne or Faulk made the claim that they were ordered to listen to conversations that were illegally taped. Their comments were that the conversational content wasn't terrorist related. I say they were hired to translate not to interpret the data. The data is interpreted much higher up the command chain not by lowly translators.

Diva tried to use this article as proof of illegal wire tapping of average citizens by the Bush administration. All this article could possibly prove is that Arabic conversations were being intercepted and translated. And that some of the conversations were apparently not terrorist related and seemed to be innocent. I don't believe the translators have any expertise in terrorism. Their expertise is in language translation.

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 5:28pm.

Winer.. well thought out and reasoned argument.. and again you answered and effectivily put down Diva's so called proof.. but you are wasting your breath.. Diva is so mired into the left's ideology that there is no reason left..
Some people you can have a passioned discussion with (jeffc) and then go out and have a beer with them..others just have to be tuned out.. Diva is one of those..


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Wed, 01/28/2009 - 9:42am.

But however could you, S. Lindsey? After all, on January 23d, you asked this:

"Are you kidding me.. Do you think the Goverment has the time to worry about you and what you tell your wife or (whatever)on the phone?"

I gave you statements directly from an NSA employee who said we did EXACTLY what you think the government would never do. Again, oh reluctant to read and comprehend, here is the QUOTE:

David Murfee Faulk, a former U.S. Navy Arab linguist, said in the news report that he and his colleagues were listening to the conversations of military officers in Iraq who were talking with their spouses or girlfriends in the United States.

According to Faulk, they would often share the contents of some of the more salacious calls stored on their computers, listening to what he called "phone sex" and "pillow talk."

The same day in the same post, you dared me with this gem....

"NAME ME ONE TIME THAT A CITIZEN HAS HAD HIS PHONE TAPPED BY THE GOVERMENT WITHOUT A WARRANT.. Go ahead I dare you..(Caveat: Patriot Act only please.. Talking about the Federal Goverment.. specifically BUSH"

Then, on the 25th, you "re-iterate?"

"Now I will ask you again.. Bring me a case in US Federal courts of "Joe Citizen" having an illegal wiretap by the Goverment using the Patriot Act.. and having such tap proved to be illegal..
and again.. I DARE YOU.."

Where did US Federal courts and Joe Citizen come from?

As for your actual original challenge:

"NAME ME ONE TIME THAT A CITIZEN HAS HAD HIS PHONE TAPPED BY THE GOVERMENT WITHOUT A WARRANT"

I believe I did that. US military officers are citizens. The journalists are US citizens. There names may not have been Joe, but, per your original challenge pulled from betwixt the buttocks cheeks,
These are citizens whom an NSA employee says were wiretapped without warrant. He works there. You don't. Whom shall we believe?


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Wed, 01/28/2009 - 12:54pm.

and see my response again as well..Please try to come up with something other then Bush Derangement Syndrome .. you and sniffles are ate up with it... give it a rest.. your best arguments where shot down.. I noticed you did not even try to argue with winer..you just had to fire your shot at me...you could not follow even the simplest of instructions.. what part of "Regular" citizens don't you get... ok let me place another caveat: Non-Goverment aligned personnel.. does that cover it for you..
Winer shot down your " journalist crap.. and the one NSA employee was pushing a book deal.. still gave no credible evidence of the event...
If it was as rampant as you suggested.. there would be dozens if not hundreds of examples of "Joe Six-pack" out there having their phones tapped under the guise of the "Patriot Act" that you so feared...
I am still waiting on the cases... please cite them when you can stop blubbering rhetoric... oh and doesn’t crow taste so sweet.. I was right on about an MDC was'nt I..


sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Wed, 01/28/2009 - 9:54am.

Diva, it's called "moving the goalposts". It's a common tactic of the fringe right wing.

_________________________
Palin-Nugent 2012


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 4:20pm.

This is an old argument and I am not going to waste my breath on you.. Not worth my time.. I got to go fire up the old SUV and let it spew some more CO2.. also gotta clean my bat from clubbing seals this weekend.

Ps.. MDC is a cilvilan contractors contract for the Military.. we acknowledge that we may be intercepted at any time as long as we hold a security clearance.. Different branchs call it by different names but it is still the same artical..
PSS.. at least mine is in my "buttocks" not crammed between my ears like you..


AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 5:58pm.

x


Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 3:42pm.

Hiya Kevin -

Whatsamatta - cat got your tongue?


AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 6:34pm.

Just curious: Why have we never met you? Are you somewhat reclusive We've got a fantastic, bipartisan group of bloggers who aren't afraid to voice their opinions to a real human being every now and then. I can assure you, as a gentleman, that no matter how infirm, insecure, or fragile you may be, we will treat you with the utmost respect, and will not say anything behind your back that we would not say to your face. Hope to meet you sometime.... "fred."

Cheers,

Kevin "Hack" King


Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 8:43pm.

You have met me, oh hairless one.


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 9:56pm.

I know Hack real, real, real well. I know that he has NEVER met anyone named "fred garvin." You have sworn that your real name is "fred garvin." So, How could Hack have met you, "fred?"


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Sat, 02/07/2009 - 4:33pm.

Deafening.


Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Mon, 02/09/2009 - 8:47am.

V1 V2 VR


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Mon, 02/09/2009 - 9:18am.

or VNE
-------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 6:47pm.

If he looks like Dan Ackroyd, I'm going to laugh my butt off.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 8:12pm.

For some reason, I doubt any of us will ever know what "fred" looks like.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 8:41pm.

Three tracks in the snow and you say boy???

I yam what I yam....Popeye


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 8:19pm.

has a certain meaning coming from a diva. Smiling
------------------------------------------
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 8:42pm.

from which he will never escape (not that any one would run from that kind of past). What I wouldn't give to break ice with the bow of a biiiiiig oooolllleeeeee boat!


S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 8:44am.

Please get off the political trail.. stop the slogans and use some reasoned agruments for a change..

"I'm just glad the new administration is ending things like completely warrantless wiretapping on Americans and the like."

Are you kidding me.. Do you think the Goverment has the time to worry about you and what you tell your wife or (whatever)on the phone?

This has been hashed over and over.. NAME ME ONE TIME THAT A CITIZEN HAS HAD HIS PHONE TAPPED BY THE GOVERMENT WITHOUT A WARRANT.. Go ahead I dare you..(Caveat: Patriot Act only please.. Talking about the Federal Goverment.. specifically BUSH) I know I have to add that because if I don't you would come up with some off the wall example.
If you where linked to a known terrorist or where calling a known terriorist cell maybe.. but really.. average Americans phones being tapped.. Get real Diva.. pull your head out of your butt and GET OVER BUSH.


Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 01/24/2009 - 10:21am.

This has been hashed over and over.. NAME ME ONE TIME THAT A CITIZEN HAS HAD HIS PHONE TAPPED BY THE GOVERMENT WITHOUT A WARRANT.. Go ahead I dare you..(Caveat: Patriot Act only please.. Talking about the Federal Goverment.. specifically BUSH)

One of the reasons that Powell left Bush is because the Bush administration 'side stepped' the policy of getting a 'warrant' before taking certain actions. Remember?

S. Lindsey's picture
Submitted by S. Lindsey on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 10:52pm.

Supreme Court just ruled that Bush was entirly within his rights and the Country's right to do so..
So Bush was right again.. and I am not surprised about Powell.. he was way to left for me and the administration..


Submitted by PTC Avenger on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 6:21pm.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/files/alharamainobama.pdf

"The Government's position remains that this case should be stayed," the Obama administration wrote (.pdf) in a filing that for the first time made clear the new president was on board with the Bush administration's reasoning in this case.

For a related topic, Google "Echelon." Also, did you know that the NSA records every overseas call made to or from the USA? And that was 25 years ago! Get with the program and read the writing on the wall.

diva's picture
Submitted by diva on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 4:31pm.

Submitted by sielo1 on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 10:30pm.

boat as Cuba and North Korea if the U.N. imposed economic sanctions against us.

Submitted by mysteryman on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 9:18pm.

Would it not be nice to go to work all week only to recieve a government voucher, that states you may remain in your govt provided house another week, and you may also drive your govt provided vehicle another week, oh yeah you can go to the store and get your weekly alotment of govt provided food as well, then if you want to have a kid you have to apply for a birthing license, and all couples have to be married and are only allowed two kids period, no licenses will be issued to couples out of wedlock only abortion vouchers. Oh Yeah only police and paramilitary groups allowed out on the street bettween the hours of 9pm and 7am. Sound crazy folks??? One word SOCIALISIM its not that far away as you would think.....PEACE

Submitted by sielo1 on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 10:26pm.

Enough with the hysteria. You have already been living in a semi-socialistic state and didn't even realize it.

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