How easy it must be to simply copy and paste without actually doing research on your own or, better yet, travelling to the area in question (to answer S. Lindsey's earlier inquiry: I spent 17 months in the Middle East, Beit Shean and Tel Aviv specifically..how much time have you spent over there?)

I noticed you didn't mention many things. Have you forgotten the 17,500 dead - almost all civilians, most of them children and women - in Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?

The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel’s right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel’s own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing. When Israel was blamed, Menachem Begin’s government accused the world of a blood libel. After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hezbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 - a war started when Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border - were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hezbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie (Note: To the poster who said the images I posted were fake propaganda, you are tragically mistaken). The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn’t even apologize.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village - again after they were ordered to leave by Israel - and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hezbollah fighter was in the ambulance (notice a pattern?).

What country built a memorial to a man whom with a machine gun attacked people at prayer killing 29 of them? What country has been cited by Amnesty International for “ethnic cleansing” in the destruction of over 4000 non-combatant homes? The answer to both is Israel.

You can actually post with a staight face that Israel is letting aid get in to Gaza? That must be why the Red Cross has reported the contrary, when Israel would not let Red Cross workers enter. Israel's great isn't it, oh yes let's not forget the Israeli sniper shooting and killing a relief worker driving aid to the Palestinians. This was the day before Israel destoyed a UN school, killing 40 civilians (again, Hamas was supposedly hiding in the school).

You should be ashamed of yourselves, coming on here and defending these murderers. That goes to everyone who's posted in this thread defending them. Why do you think the Arab terrorists despise us so? If you think it's because they hate our freedoms you are wrong. I can't even believe Americans actually believe that lie. It's because we blindly give Israel billions of dollars a year, it's because they're using American F-16s to drop bombs on them, American made assault weapons. Why do they hate us, we will ask? Let us not say we do not know the answer.

P.S. I love how anytime someone offers legitimate criticism of Israel they are automatically branded an anti-Semite hellbent on igniting a pogrom. Those tactics may silence others, but not me, I'm not afraid of the truth.

I will keep pasting THE FACTS as well as adding my research and knowledge of the situation as I did at the end of my original post. You can do the same with your own.....whether they be the truth or not is another matter entirely. I have been there and have lived there and have many friends and close relations still there......they will continue to fill me in on the truth as it happens. You can believe your own vile spew and vitriolic rhetoric if you'd like, I prefer reason and truth. I know, as do most reasonable people, what the situation is and I am done here....I would rather not read any more of your hate filled lies.

"Picture a bright blue ball, just spinning, spinnin free,
Dizzy with eternity.
Paint it with a skin of sky,
Brush in some clouds and sea,
Call it home for you and me.
A peaceful place or so it looks from space,
A closer look reveals the human race.
Full of hope, full of grace
Is the human face,
But afraid we may lay our home to waste."

"once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"
"listen to the thunder shouting, "I AM, I AM, I AM"

;>} Have a grateful day ;>}

gratefuldoc.. right on the mark.. It amazes me how many people that delude themselves and wholy and souly indoctranate themselves on the spew from sites like islamboutique.. a pro Hamas and Hezbollah site.
Both sides have issues, but I do not believe the Israeli's have ever sent their Children to kill other Children.. by way of a bomb strapped to them.
Israel may bomb targets of opportunity and yes civilians get killed, as they have an all wars", however they do not target civilians intentionally.. That is for the TERRORIST to do.. and don't give me "that is their only way they can fight back" crap either.

Here it comes.. " You never been there so you can not comment" argument.. Weak at best.. Using that logic Teachers can not teach etc.. Stop dodging the question.. You spill your bilge like Hamas spills blood.. Often..
I asked you a simple question.. ANSWER it without a lot of propaganda and slogans.. If you had to live under the threat of constant anilhalation and every neighbor wanted you dead..Your neighbor shoots at you 2-3 hundred times a day trying to kill you and your kids..Then send their kids over to kill you.. What would you do.. You can not move, you can not give in.. THEY WANT TO KILL YOU.. What do you do.. just roll over and die.. I guess that is your solution.
Like I said you condemn Israel while saying "poor Palistine" Please try to get your sources from somewhere other then pro-Islam sites, but then you would have to have an open mind.. I do not believe you do..
Here are some real Sources for you:
http://www.factsandlogic.org/index.html

Astute readers will notice that I have not cited a single pro-Islam site. My information cited here comes mostly from the Israeli press and the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center; decidedly not pro-Islam.

Ignoring the facts that the Israeli settlements, roadblocks, checkpoints, segregated roads and separation wall built on Palestinian land is provocative and fuels support for extremists like Hamas is a peculiarly American phenomena. In Israel itself there is an ongoing and robust discussion of these issues every day both in the Parliament and in the press.

If I came to your property and built a 30 foot wall around your house with a checkpoint for you to have access through for three hours a day and confiscated the rest of your land so I could build on it, that would be okay with you? If I could then talk Saudi Arabia into letting you move into a camp in the desert would we have solved our dispute?

That comment was not about you... The pro-Hamas (Fanatic) site Islam Boutique.com was used by PTCavenger as a sole source of Israeli war crimes..
I wanted him to answer the question instead of spouting rhetoric..
It is easy to throw crap around and see what sticks, but it is a lot harder to give a reasoned answer to a pointed question.

You: "These people have been killing CHILDREN for years in Israel and where may I ask have you been?"

Me: "I spent 17 months in the Middle East, Beit Shean and Tel Aviv specifically."

I did answer your question. You then commented, "Here it comes..'You never been there so you can not comment' argument.." It was you, not I, who originally asked where I was and if I had ever been to the Mid-East. When my answer is not what you expected, you try to use it against me and make me look like the bad guy.

Oh, the site is actually French, not sponsored by Hamas as you claim.

You also stated: "they (Israel) do not target civilians intentionally." That is an outright lie. If you read my previous post you will learn of a number of instances in which civilians were targeted and killed.

Grateful doc, how cowardly of you to back out and refuse to debate anymore now that I've actually presented facts that are incompatible with your media spoon-fed view of Israel.

...Ignoring other little facts regarding Gaza has some significance as well. Take for example is it not true that those dastardly extremist Hamas types control the area by intimidation? Surely, by now they have long outworn their welcome. Another little known tidbit would be that the Jewish community has had a continuous presence in the area far longer than the Palestinians, but somehow we view the Israelis as being the newcomers(1948).

Yet another fact is that what we call Palestinian land is actually lands won over by Israel in 1967 after a little multi-pronged incursion into Israel that was repulsed to the point of Arab embarrassment. Another is that the preponderance of those "taken" lands have been given back under pressure or duress from the UN in the name of peace. My last fact is your remark about the debate within the Israeli Parliament and press is accurate, but can you say the same about Israel's neighboring governments? Could it be that it is not allowed?

Lastly, the daily firing of rockets indescriminately across the border would incite a violent response by most. Could it be time for yet another wall backing the current rockets beyond their range?

I raise these points to address complexities that have to be dealt with if a real peace deal is ever to be implemented. The ultimate goal is that Israel can live in peace with normal relations with the surrounding Arab countries. The Arab governments have mostly come to terms with Israel's right to exist and each has to deal with extremists groups who use the conflict to demonize Israel and the US and to build support for radicals which threaten their governments.

Regardless of the merits of the Israel/Palestine conflict, it is clear that Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Brotherhood, Islamic Jihad, etc. etc. all exploit the existing conflict to recruit followers and to advance their extremist ideologies. A peace deal acceptable to Israel and the Arab governments would undermine these groups which would certainly be to Israel's advantage.

The US and Israel have embraced the two state solution recognizing that absorption of Palestine into the one state scenario would overwhelm Israel demographically. All of the issues I raise are dealt with in all of the proposed peace deals: Camp David II, Oslo, Annapolis, etc. Because of the fragility of the coalitions making up Israel's government, they are not strong enough to conclude a deal without the active involvement of the US acting as an “honest broker”. Clinton waited to late, Bush had no real interest.

Let's be clear, or at least let me be clear in my opinion, the problem is not with the Arab governments, the problem is Iran and Iran's support for Hezbollah and Hamas and its attempt to dominate the Syrian government. A deal acceptable to Israel and the Arab governments and the Palestinians in the West Bank would be a serious blow to Hamas. A deal with Syria would be a serious blow to both Hezbollah and Hamas. Military actions strengthen the radical elements and threaten the moderate Arab governments and therefore further threaten and endanger Israel.

In my opinion, our policies should be re-evaluated to undermine Iranian influence in the region which, again IMO, was the exact opposite of the outcome of the current administration.

I believe that my stance is entirely compatible with General Jim Jones, Obama's soon to be National Security Adviser. I do not seek to be inflammatory by pointing out and discussing the issues surrounding the very difficult situation. The right of Israel to exists should be unquestioned and Israeli security is paramount. I just sometimes find the attitudes expressed here advocating the virtual extermination of the Palestinians (the vast, vast majority of whom just want to live in peace and have no affiliation with the Hamas terrorist) unacceptable and it is just my nature to argue.

Your points are well taken, and far too long have one administration after another failed to place the Iranian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and Syrian influences in context with the relationship each shared with Palestinian leadership. I agree that should these outside influences be minimized, they will become of little consequence.

The hard line stances or the "scorched earth " mentality seems to forget that it is beliefs and ideals that survive those of us priviledged to carry them. They seem to forget that the idea of freedom that they hold dear was once just an idea.

Like you,I enjoy fiesty verbal exchanges from time to time and find them much more pleasing than debating a signpost as some seem to enjoy .

Oh and PTC Avenger.. Look at your source for the pics... Straight from HAMAS themselves... but of course their not biased are they...
You might want to try a few more sources before you present these as fact...

Why the right wingers continually play right into their hands even knowing this is a mystery to me.

The answer is simple math. E=mc 2. The only other factor in the equation is method of delivery... Oh and the direction of the wind at time of detonation, hint collateral damage for the next 300 years, of course if the prevaling winds were heading toward Iran at the time of the blast it would be a 2 for 1 payoff... Just remember it can all end in a flash...... with the push of a single button....BLESS....

to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb.

Or was it "Failsafe" or perhaps "On the Beach"

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

AHH...The classics, if we could only get Comcast or Dish to show these classic more often the new generation would be humbled, and start to ask the important questions, about how we got to where we are today...I love the part in Strangelove where the Capn of the 52, Red cannot get the weapon to deploy from the bay, and climbs down on top of the weapon and sits on top of it while trying to get it to release, and ends up "RIDING THE ROCKET" A classic family movie all should enjoy...GOD BLESS....

The bomb drop with Slim Pickens and Miss Scott (Tracy Reed) was so HOT!

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

The 52 skimming the deck was cutting edge at the time too....

I'm not taking sides here, just stating the obvious. How many Israelis would have died from the disproportionatly high number of rockets launched into Israel if it weren't for the high number of bomb shelters. I don't think you can compare just the casualities. Compare the number of attacks.

Israelis are uniquely prepared to handle incoming rocket fire. After decades of this, they have an enviable (I don't envy them-yet) system of warning sirens and bomb shelters. There are kids there that haven't seen sunlight since last month cause they have been living underground.

Israel is using some of the smartest ordinance available. It can hit a single apartment room, leaving the rest of the building unscathed. (Did US govt. give it to them?)

But Hamas has fired a lot more rockets/morters into Israel than Israel into Gaza. I'm sure it depends on who is doing the counting, but the numbers I found a week or so ago was that during the "lull arrangement" from June 19 to Dec 19, 329 rockets/ morters were launched into Israel from Gaza. 2278 in the 6 months preceeding the cease fire. Hamas says it was Fatah & Al-Qaeda firing during the cease fire. With the high numbers of launches, can Hamas take the credit for low Israelis casualites?

My research is over a week old and Israel put boots on the ground in Gaza since then. It is just an ugly situation and no solution in sight.

If Israel hopes to stop rocket fire—probably the most inefficient in history—it is going about it the wrong way. Israeli Goebbelses keep asking Americans what they would do if someone fired rockets at them. Well, let’s ask the same Americans what they would do if most of their towns and cities were cleansed of Americans and driven into little strips along the Mexican border. What would Americans do if the Israelis sealed off one of those refugee strips for 18 months and did not allow any medical or food assistance in or the people out. I can tell you what Americans would do, and it would be a damn sight harsher and more effective than what the humiliated but not yet defeated Palestinians have been doing. Americans have been totally brainwashed and lied to by Israel’s agents—the neocons and their useful idiots. As soon as the murder of Palestinian children stops, Israel’s PR machine will go into overdrive, just as it did following the killings of Lebanese and Palestinians in 2006.

It seems to me that you would support the elimination of the Jewish state and the subsequent diaspora or liquidation of the Israeli populace.

We can lament the way that this area was set up, just as American Indians can lament the European settlement of this continent, but it is what it is. The Palestinians have been played by both Arabs and Jews and are used as a dagger into the Israeli populace. No arab country has tried to assimilate these people. They have used them in a proxy war against the existence of the Jewish state.

The Palestinians will not stop until the state of Israel is eliminated. The rest of their brethren in the neighboring countries will continue to drive to that goal.

This is an area of diplomacy that requires global attention. Hamas expected this reaction from Israel to anger world opinion. (They have been successful) We must live with the unwise decision to place a 'democracy' in the middle of the Arab world with little or no forethought to the problems that would develop. (We didn't care - just so long as the 'refugees' were not in our country.)It has taken this country decades for two differing cultures to live peacefully side-by-side. Now that we are approaching living the words of our Constitution - it is our responsibility to LISTEN to and assist Muslims and Jews to live peacefully in Israel. It can be done. Hamas, in my opinion, by using populated areas from which to launch their rockets - has set up this sickening 'war'. The Palestinians - even though the Israeli's have warned them about impending attacks - have no where to go! And we can't expect the Israeli's to continue to allow the daily bombings of their cities. Violence is not solving this problem. . . and the world cannot stand by and watch these people annihilate one another.

It is only a modern day concept that the victor of the war does not keep territory. But many thought that returning land would give them peace. Unfortunately for the Israelis, there is a significant portion of the arab world and a larger portion of the Palestinian people who do not want Israel to exist at all. These are the people that rejoice at the death of an infidel--man, woman, or child. These are the people who stockpile weapons and shoot them at Israel from populated areas. They invite retaliation because they know that retaliation will bring collateral deaths of their own people. It is sad to think that the area will only become peaceful when one society eliminates the other. I don't know how this issue gets compromised when one half wants to live and the other side wants them to not exist.

Israeli strategy is the confiscation of Palestinian land not any land for peace deal. The withdrawal from Gaza was a result of the economic and military burden of protecting 33 settlements with 40,000 people in the midst of 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.

In the 8 months after Israel signed the Annapolis Accords sponsored by the Bush administration with the explicit promise to the United States that they would not increase the settlements, the Israelis started or expanded 101 settlements without a peep from the Bush administration. Everyone knew Annapolis was a hoax; I wrote about it here during the negotiations.

In spite of the violations of the Annapolis Accords, who do you think actually finances these settlements? The US government to the tune of a little more than $10 million a day.

After Israeli PM Olmert decided not to run for reelection he publicly admitted that Israel had never intended to stop the settlements and that the policy was a mistake, detrimental to Israel's security:

Olmert faults Israel on settlements

Here is a Map of Israeli Settlements

Remember that every settlement has an “Israeli only” road linking it to Israel on which Palestinians are forbidden to travel. Besides the additional land confiscated for these roads, there is usually a large buffer on each side lined with huge barbed wire fences.

Here is a map of the Apartheid Roads system.

Incidentally, in 2004, Israel needed more money to build these separatist roads and approached it's European allies who refused to provide the financing. The Europeans refused in part because the road system violates rulings from the International Court of Justice. End of Story? Of course not. The Bush administration decided that the US would finance the road system which we continue to do today.

Israel seeks funds for separate Arab roads

These settlements and roads are the reason Israel has so many roadblocks and checkpoints inside Palestine instead of just at the Israeli borders. If you are interested, here is the latest UN collection of maps of the Israeli checkpoints. Unfortunately it's 20 pages:

Latest checkpoint maps

There has been no swap of land for peace.

Q: Why did the Palestinian terrorists want to cross the road?

A: To kill all of the Israeli's!!!

When Hamas and the Palestinians lay down their weapons and recognize the Israeli's right to exist, the war will end.

However the main point of my post remains the same. How do the Israeli people exist in a region that does not want them to exist? Additionally, the arab governments surrounding Israel use these "Palestinian refugees" in a proxy war with the Israelis. It is culturally acceptable to make agreements with the infidel that can be broken morally. That is how the society functions and operates. Agreements are a form of incrementalism to the end of the elimination of the Jewish state. And by the way, my family comes from Lebanon and I do believe we have property claims there. I am somewhat knowledgeable on this.

In 2002 Saudi Crown prince Abdullah proposed a Arab Peace Plan which if implemented would pledge all 22 Arab countries to:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

It would require Israel to return to some mutually agreed upon but modified 1967 border and deal with the “return” problem of Palestinians to their ancestral land within Israel.

This will be the eventual deal if a two state solution is reached (and a one state solution dooms Israel to an Arab majority).

Everybody, including all the Arab countries, knows that the refugees are not going to return. This problem will be finessed by allowing a small token number of returnees and then paying off the rest of the land claims, most probably with US taxpayer money. Since this is to Israel's advantage it shouldn't be much of a sticking point with them. Since the Arabs already know this what's left is negotiating the price and it isn't going to be cheap.

The 1967 border issue is a two part problem. One part is the settlements which can be handled by allowing Israel to keep most of them, those close to Israel proper, and swapping equivalent amounts of land elsewhere to compensate.

The second part is a deal with Syria. Most people, exposed to only the US press, believe this is unquestionably impossible. In fact, it's almost a done deal and the peace treaty has already been negotiated:

Draft Israel-Syria Peace Treaty

It was killed by the neocons in the Bush administration because they didn't want any negotiations with Assad. Cheney's people threatened to withhold a billion dollars from our Israeli subsidy if they continued negotiations so they stopped:

U.S. Blocks Israel-Syria Talks

After the US opposition became public there were stories in the Israeli press outraged at the US interference so the Bush people had Condi lie about supporting it and the controversy eventually died out.

Obama will almost certainly change this policy and encourage a treaty assuming Netanyahu doesn't win the election.

Not to say it will be easy but a negotiated settlement is possible.

Assuming a deal, and to finally answer your question, which Arab governments are then going to carry on the proxy war? Jordan and Egypt have existing peace treaties. Saudi Arabia is sponsoring the Arab peace initiative and terrified of the radicals in their own country; one reason they want the inflammatory Palestinian issue off the table. Iraq is a US puppet bought and paid for. Throw in a Syrian deal and there isn't much Arab government opposition left.

An agreement between Israel, Palestine and all 22 Arab countries would greatly diffuse the radical Islamic rallying cry and recruitment efforts.

The truth is that Clinton wasted his term by waiting until the last year to begin negotiating and the Bush people were opposed to negotiations so they could their maintain ideological purity and neocon fantasies of restructuring the ME into democracies. I have hopes for the Obama administration, admittedly dimming with the appointment of Hillary as SecState and her upcoming disastrous appointment of Ross and Indyke as her ME reps, but still hope.

IMO, it's up to Obama to lead.

We'll see.

Thank you for your response. I will review all of this information. Although none are on the side of angels, I think it is a fundamental right to be able to live without the threat of instant death. I would not want to live that way and would fight to ensure that it didn't happen. There is a long way to go before there is a true peace. Probably a pipe dream and a reality of despots holding the populace down as the only way to a ceasefire.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that there isn't a "Palestine" in existence. I don't believe there has ever been a sovereign nation by that name to own that land.

Probably 99.99% of the people in the world have moved beyond this silly argument.

Join us.

I'll stick to the facts. Have a great evening, Jeff.

Thanks for posting that. The average American does not know any of this. I was unaware myself.

I still believe that the U.S. policies in the Middle East were the main reason that Bin Laden's thugs hit us on 9/11. And what have we learned since 9/11? Nothing. What policies have we changed or transformed? None. We continue to fuel the fire with our policies and I have no doubt that we will be hit again by Islamic terrorists in the future.

The average American does not know any of this. This below average unit did not know this either. Thank you for your efforts to inform us.

"I can't wait until tomorrow, because I become more lovable every day."

All of this one-sided bunk from Jeff fails to answer the question-
If the "Palestinians" are such gosh darn peaceful people, why do they allow the terrorist organization Hamas to lob missles into Israel from schools and neighborhoods during the agreed to cease-fire?

Feel free to dispute any fact that I have presented. Your argument seems to be that advocates of a peace deal in the ME are somehow anti-Israel.

And whoever said, “…the "Palestinians" are such gosh darn peaceful people…”. If you starve any group of people and cut off medical supplies, fuel and water; I suspect that there will be a negative reaction.

As to “one-sided bunk”, again fell free to dispute any fact I have presented but I see that statement as simply a reflection of the information people get here in the US media. There are huge numbers of advocates in Israel with whom I am agreeing:

JVP Condemns Siege of Gaza, Ceasefire Violations

Many people who follow this closely attribute the collapse of the ceasefire to the Israeli attack on Rafah on November 4. This is not secret information; here is a short excerpt from the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. It divided the ceasefire into a "period of relative quiet between 19 June and 4 November," when "Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire," and "the escalation and erosion of the ... arrangement" which it dated to "4 November [when] the [Israeli army] carried out a military action close to the border security fence on the Gazan side..."

This whole scenario is representative of a classic trend in conflicts. Attacks by one side lead to attacks by the other and escalate into more violence and retribution empowering more and more extreme leadership until both sides are controlled by extremist and moderates are marginalized or cowed. An example here: Hamas is a terrorist organization essentially hated by the Egyptian government who see it as an offshoot of the Islamic Brotherhood yet Mubarak cannot defend the Israeli attacks even if he wishes Hamas exterminated. To support Israel would lead to further radicalization of the politics in Egypt and the possible overthrow of the Mubarak government. Same with Jordan and Saudi Arabia. So these three countries, all moderate toward Israel, are forced to condemn the Israeli attacks and thus boost Hamas’s position in the Arab population which further frightens the Israelis who then probably flock to vote for Netanyahu who promises never to negotiate anything.

It’s truly a vicious circle.

Of course the net effect is that these political positions championed by the right-wing neocons is to give Hamas a veto power over any peace deal. All they have to do is stage an attack and all bets for a negotiated settlement are off for months or years. The neocons have become useful idiots serving the purpose of Hamas’s master: Iran.

Some one needs to tell the Israelis to stop doing it.. That's the Palestinians job...
How can they strap dynamite on the kids when they are all in hiding..
Them Israelis better get with the program.. I mean really.. Hamas is just shooting a few "un-guided" rockets.. you know like bottle rockets at them and just because a few kids are killed on a school bus by another kid wearing a bomb.. I mean really thay need to get control of themselves.. you know like we do.