and then ask why we taxpayers are left holding the bag?

I'll give you a hint.

Got slightly over $400 million in subsidies to locate in Ga., a bit over $160,000 per job.

But wasn't it all state and local subsidies?
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Who paid for those state and local subsidies? You? Or were state and local governments trimmed and reduced by that amount to compensate?

Why of course you, me, and everyone else has paid. However, Westmoreland had nothing to do with state and or local money. Well, other than unfunded mandates.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

No one asked the workers at the financial institutions that got $700 billion to take cuts? Corporate welfare is different?

that conservatives wanted the bank bailout? It is interesting that you think that our auto companies have sustainable businesses right now.

The new logo is for you, Jeff C. Enjoy

Has put us on the hook for $5.7 trillion dollars in bailout money by my last count and there is quibbling over a measly $16 billion loan? Give me a break. The unions are going to give up some pay and the deal is going to be done. Bet on it. Most of this moaning from "conservatives" is just a ploy to disguise their agenda of union busting. It suits me fine for three reasons: it isn't going to work, it shows a misunderstanding of the economy and it delivers Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio and Pennsylvania to the Democrats for a generation to come.

Besides, Bush and the "conservative" party are going to do the bail out. Watch.

It's interesting that you would blame the workers if you think the auto companies don't have a sustainable business model.

Love the logo! Hopefully, we can restore some of the Bill of Rights that the administration tried to shred for years. Ever hear of the Patriot Act?

Bush got the bailout through both the houses without any help from the Dems? Boy, now that's a politician.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Everybody is up to their eyeballs in it. I'm just commenting on the politics of it. It's Bush's baby and his party gets the tar and feathers. The Republicans run the administration and administer the laws. If they didn't have the necessary laws to prevent this they should have gotten them passed. If they had sufficient laws then they failed in administering them. If Bush didn't like the laws he should have vetoed them.

Look back at the comments here about the Carter administration. Who refused to pay for the Vietnam War (Johnson), who instigated wage and price controls (Nixon), who had the first oil embargo gas shortage and lines (Nixon), who had an economy melting down with inflation so bad that they started the Whip Inflation Now (WIN) campaign (Ford), who did it all culminate under after the second oil embargo (Carter), and who gets most of the blame?

Which Party was in Congress during the Hoover administration and what did they do that extended the Depression? Who knows? Who cares? It was the Hoover Depression.

People interested enough to blog about politics (and partisans) might argue nuance, but for 95% of the rest they don't know and they don't care. They're going to blame the Bush administration and the Republicans.

Bush's war, Bush's economy.

The buck stops there.

That the Republicans are to blame for all the ordeals our country has faced since the Great Depression? Or are you saying that it is just convienent to blame the "nuances" on the Republicans in order to pin blame as a tactic for the Democrats to continue to win and rule?

It's sort of like: Damned the country, the economy and it's serfs. Manipulate and win that election.

I'm saying that political accountability is going to be pinned on the Republicans. No one wishes that the American people were more knowledgeable about politics than me nor am I claiming that it is in any way fair. It's just a fact. People are politically unsophisticated and will blame Bush 'cause he was in charge and that will affect their voting for Bush's Party. You watch, it'll happen.

Even Dick Cheney is saying that the collapse of the auto industry will be blamed on Republicans likening them to Hoover:

White House Ready to Aid Auto Industry

I'll buy that Jeff. Thanks for the clarification. So what say you we help some of these "unsophisticated Americans" like Lion understand that the mess we're in transcends both of our corrupt and self serving parties. It sure gets old listening to folk like the Lion and Mudcat spouting off their party line clichés.

What is going to sink any 'hope' of us recovering from this bi-partisan mess is our refusal to draw the line against the special interest groups in this country such as the unions, gays, corporate welfare lobbyists, environmental groups, the race baiters, the Wall Street hacks, and the list goes on. Until we are willing to make our government less powerful and more accountable to 'We The People' then we have no hope of any long term stability in this country. Most of our leaders are on the take and their success comes from living off the backs of the producers. All these celebrity politicians would be nobodies if it weren't for the system that they've manipulated to give them the tremendous powers they abuse.

So Jeff... How do we get rid of these leeches?

leech - a follower who hangs around a host in hope of gain

Git, for my two cents you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps if we can get someone as entrenched in his party as Jeff to answer truthfully, I'll just bet someone's answer from the other side will be quite similar.

For me, placing term limits upon the leeches at all levels would be a fine starting point and this would include those lifetime appointments to the bench. Further, up the penalties for those convicted of corruption and get rid of those "cushy" federal facilities and incarcerate them with the general prison population.

These officials have cleverly created a patrician society for themselves for they have placed themselves above the law in too many cases. It's time to rid our government of those who object to the smell of Americans in THEIR public buildings, the same goes for those who would forsake the safety of men and women in uniform for political gain, and how much longer will Americans tolerate those who use their office to hide immoral behavior?

It's high time for a good tar and feather party.

This horrible economic situation we now have isn't the fault of the elected!
We elected them because they were in the party we wanted.
We selected people who went for the wrong purposes.
Now that they have screwed up everything, we want to blame them instead of blaming ourself!

I dare say that many right here in Fayette County if given a choice tomorrow between a good decent legislator who was a democrat as opposed to a republican who yet espoused the very things that got us where we are---some would vote the republican just to be "safe."

People like Limbaugh, Hannity, Boortz, and the blonde skinny witch, have roused up trouble for so long that some are now addicted to their false doctrine! We have even turned Generals against one another!

We need some "thinkers" and not so many selfish, ignorant know-it-alls! Those who use "agreements" to rule instead of what is correct.

We need a revolution, I'm afraid.

"Perhaps if we can get someone as entrenched in his party as Jeff to answer truthfully..."

They will not allow us to to rid our government of those who object to the smell of Americans in THEIR public buildings,

You also nailed it when you used the term patrician society. If fact these high-class nobel royals have learned to pass on their birthrights down to their family members. A few obvious family name examples come to mind: Kennedy, Bush, Dodd, Gore, Sununu, Clinton, Daley, Udall..... just to name a few. Are we able to add the Carter family to this list?

In addition to term limits we must extensively reduce the salaries these nobels currently get paid and provide a mere subsistence for these positions. And as our old friend Cogitofay regularly reminds us of, we need to eliminate the $150,000 dollar annual pension these crooks, oops I mean royals, are allowed to receive after a mere six years of so-called service. (I know this causes Sniffles much angst knowing Westmoreland is an actual beneficiary of this heinous taxpayer ripoff... It's okay Sniffles... I'm with ya on this one.)

Alright guys. Elect Git to the Senate and here is my campaign promise to you: Three times a week I'll eat a can of black beans for breakfast and treat Harry Reid to the smells of us peasant Americans. Why only three days? Well.... I do have to live with myself.

You run, I'll vote for you. As for me, if nominated all I'm going to run for is the border so you won't be adding my name to the list.

Will you agree that we are in deep bi-partisan doody as a result of our elite ruling class politicos?

HAHAHA.

Seriously though, I don't see how the R's recover at this point without years in the wilderness (just being truthful here Mike). It seems to me that everything they do is wrong. Take this auto bailout; why cast it as a union bashing thing? Who does that help? Could there be a more destructive way for the R's to go about it?

GOP: Don't blame us

The thing is a loan! Why not talk collateral, oversight, protecting the taxpayers and careful review of the companies plan? The American people would probably appreciate that approach. Instead the R's pass around an anti-union “action plan” which allows the D's to portray them as against the working man. Only R's hate unions, the rest of the people don't care about them. So now, playing to their base again (and alienating everybody else), they try to outdo each other with their union bashing thus boosting the D's. The exact same thing happened over the immigration issue. The R's, egged on by fringe radio, became more and more extreme on the issue until it got to where all immigrants became frightened not just the illegals. The Catholic, hard working, family based, legal Mexicans should be a natural for the R's. Instead, they drove them into the D's camp.

I'm actually writing a paper on how to further split the R's and siphon off large segments. Maybe I'll share parts of it here. Even when I write it out in black and white they still don't seem to get it. I'm a fairly good analyst, go back and look at my election predictions. Did ANYBODY but me predict a Chambliss/Martin runoff and the squeaker in the Alaska Senate race?

Could there be a more destructive way for the R's to go about it?

Jeff, even when they are on the right side of an argument the Republicans bumble the issue. The Republicans never had the unions. They have nothing to lose. The American people are against these bailout and 'loans'. These so-called loans make about as much sense as loaning money on homes that many unsophisticated Americans couldn't ever afford. I know you don't walk in my circles Jeff and you're more comfortable with the elites, but I can assure you the rank and file smelly Americans have a very high disdain for the union thug mentality that has chased our manufacturing base out of this country.

I'm actually writing a paper on how to further split the R's and siphon off large segments.

Well great. And I thought you were with us. I guess it's hard to tear yourself away from the aristocratic ruling class and the bennies of association. Oh well... I suppose it was too good to be true.

Oh..... My point in posting your quote? To ask what is gained for the American people by strengthening one party over the other if they are both corrupt? I think you do us a disservice by abetting those that use us and don't like the way we smell.

Did ANYBODY but me predict a Chambliss/Martin runoff and the squeaker in the Alaska Senate race?

Uh..yeah. Nearly every pundit on the TV and radio for a couple of months leading up to the elections. Cept I can't speak for Alaska as the dynamics changed radically at the conviction of another crook.

Jeff... you're really not with the bourgeois class are you?

Middle class capitalist? That's me.

Who is corrupt? Find them, try them, throw them in jail!

Who are you calling elite Kimosabe?

Check out this article: Richer and Smarter. I know it's from Slate but it makes good points backed up by statistics. The country is changing so that the richer you are and the more education you have the more likely you are to be a Democrat while the Republican Party is coalescing around the poorer and less educated. It's very hard for people here to believe because we live in an anomalous county in an anomalous state.

As for with us or against us, my real concerns and interest is almost entirely foreign policy where the neocons have IMO presided over a train wreck. I want them thrown out and their policies crushed which is going to happen in 36 days to my delight.

However, economically, the D's are and have been better for the economy in almost every category across the board except cutting taxes. This resonates with the Rep. Base so well that they will invariably opt for a small tax cut over a 20% gain in the stock market and an expanding economy.

I haven't polished it yet but I'm posting some notes soon as a new blog: Economic comparisons of Presidential terms. I'll have it up in a day or two.

There are nations that owe less money then GM.

GM is 45.16B in debt.

How are they ever going to pay it back? NOT!

It’s time to let them go quietly into the night.

P.S. They can take the UAW with them.

Your view on debt is a trifle over-simplistic.

You are correct, GM has 45 billion in debt. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Debt, believe it or not, helps to maximize shareholder value (to a point, obviously there is a point of diminishing returns).

Back in the 1980s, many companies had a significant investment in fixed assets, which were a drag on company earnings. For example, GM owned their own headquarters building. It sat there, day after day, and did nothing for their shareholders. Corporate raiders punished this mindset, and took over a number of companies. To maximize shareholder value, companies like GM sold off their headquarters buildings and turned around and leased them back, which shows up as debt on a balance sheet.

Right now, GM has gone from having a debt-to-asset ratio of 2:1 to 3:1, not because debt has increased but rather because cash and near-cash has hemmoraghed. US Steel, by way of comparison, has a debt-to-asset ratio of 5:1....it varies by industry.

of managing their finances and keeping their business plan focused that they are now standing with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

They don’t have the money or available credit, no bank will make them a loan, to even begin to retool any of their plants so they can try and make a vehicle that can compete in today’s market.

If they have nothing that the banks will accept as collateral why on earth should the U.S. taxpayers be forced into giving them something for nothing?

GMAC strayed from their core business model to enter into the lucrative mortgage banking business and look where it got them. Not all debt is good.

So Yard, tell me again how well GM has managed their debt.

Remember while you’re telling stories that GM itself said that it may not have the operating capital to stay afloat until the end of the year.

Oh, don’t forget the part that says that the automotive industry will be back to the trough just after the inaugural for even more free money.

I used the term “FREE MONEY” because they have no idea or intention to ever pay it back.

Letting the BIG 3 go bankrupt and killing off another useless union is probably the best thing that could happen. Then they could restructure under much better conditions. Besides, Honda and Toyota will still be there if I need a new car or truck.

P.S. The airline industry has been doing that same thing for years and most of the country didn’t even notice.

i don't do economics as a rule...I do government. I think you have assumed that I have multiple personalities here...something that is most certainly not the case. Just wanted to bring this to your attention. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Three times a week I'll eat a can of black beans for breakfast and treat Harry Reid to the smells of us peasant Americans.

Compared to the smells that are already permeating the US Congress, that will be an air freshener.

"I can't wait until tomorrow, because I get more lovable every day."

jobs where it’s legal to vote yourself a raise at the taxpayers expense. Now these same people are going after corporate leaders who preformed just as badly and take huge bonuses to boot.

These same fine people are also the folks that cry and scream about lobbing money pouring in when their party’s not in the majority.

This is the group that thinks it’s alright for the American taxpayer to foot the $7 trillion bailouts and refuse to disclose the recipients or terms because we the taxpayers can’t handle the truth as to what securities are being received as collateral.

This is the same fine group of people that exempt themselves from laws that all other businesses must conform.

As long as we keep electing people that think it’s alright to keep an intern under the desk to catch drips & dribbles and grant retroactive immunity to corporations that knowingly broke the law because said elected official asked them to, then we are getting what we deserve.

This past election cycle was more about who people didn’t want in office then who they did.

I don’t begrudge our new President elect anything. As a matter of fact he deserves our respect and our commitment to help him make the USA better and stronger. I just feel that when you end up with over $700,000,000 in your war chest that somehow, somewhere, special interest groups are in control and common people seem to get smaller and smaller.

I think we have Jeff on our side on this one. Now there is four of us. How about you Nuk? Main? Carbon? Yardman? Mudcat? Hack? Wedge? Others? You guys to ready to repudiate the Democrat and Republican parties and seize back what is ours?

So.... where do we go from here?

Suggest it be a topic of discussion at the next bloggers coffee.

If we get Bonker$ to sign up we would double our membership.

i am most definitely with you. Let us look to change the way we go about deciding who we vote for based on commonalities rather than ideological differences. I WOULD like to interject here for Bad that our Congressmen cannot vote themselves a pay raise (ala the 27th Amendment). If they vote the pay raise and we re-elect them then who, exactly, is at fault..them or us? Keep the faith.

Congress Votes Itself a Pay Raise

Trust me, I know what the US Govt. can do.

any pay raise given does not go into effect until the next Congress...therefore, Westmoreland (as an example) would have to stand for re-election before receiving the raise he (theoretically) voted for. Keep the faith.

Now disavow yourself as a Democrat and let's identify those commonalities. How we each get to keep more of the money we earn, how we protect ourselves from an ever invasive government, and the list goes on.....

When we drop the labels, and hold all politicians to doing what is right for the American people - we 'll be on the way to a government of the people, etc. The labels have become too emotional - and we've all been blinded. Stay involved! We need a meaningful two party system.

those commonalities will have to be determined. The ones you mentioned are surely very popular ideas. So is the idea of open and transparent government being advocated by FAYCog. I think that we can find these commonalities. The only reason I have identified with the Democratic Party is that party will give me a seat at the table...to allow me to voice my concerns and work for solutions. The other party is too rigidly controlled from the top. Any sort of change that is going to occur (in order to be meaningful) will have to originate with people like us and work its way through the system from the bottom up. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport

A definite yes from this unit. For my grandchildren and their children, I have no choice.

"I can't wait until tomorrow, because I get more lovable every day."

Everybody is in it up to their eyeballs, but only the Republicans get any blame, the Dems control both houses, but only the the Repubs get any blame. Am I seeing a pattern here?

I yam what I yam....Popeye

No, the only eyeballs in danger are the administration managers who for the last eight years chose to totally ignore the compounding situation--due to distractions of war, ever increasing bank power, oil, religion (Schiavo), and so-called "conservatism," which no longer exists as a power or as a rational philosophy!
It is what people like to turn to when times get dangerous or tough instead of taking proper action!
To invade unnecessarily, or spend unnecessarily, is their answer to everything--or to blame the devil loose here on earth--he ain't here, just his emissaries!

The fallout accrues to the Republicans. Watch and see. That's why Rush et. al. are so desperate to label this as the "Obama recession" months before Obama takes office. The D's control of Congress is irrelevant. I could easily make the case that it all or mostly stems from the 8 years that the R's controlled Congress prior to that but in politics it doesn't matter. Republicans are going to argue that Democratic Congressman's amendment X to legislation Y from sub-committee Z was responsible and take that case to people who mostly can't even name their own Senators?

Politically, if you're the one explaining then you're the one losing. Look at Jessie Jackson Jr. He may theoretically be completely innocent as he claims in the Illinois mess. Doesn't matter a bit. He's explaining, he's losing.

Jeff is absolutely right.

The GOP has written off minorities and become an almost all-white party.

The GOP is losing or has lost the youth vote according to post-election analysis.

The GOP has written off American cities although most Americans live in metropolitan areas.

The GOP has, according to recent polls, lost the educated American vote. Most Americans with college degrees voted for Democrats in the recent election.

The GOP has now turned its back on American workers and the industrial states in rejecting the bill to help the auto industry.

The GOP has become the party of predominately rural, white, less-educated America.

Lynn Westmoreland, Saxby Chambliss, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee--this is the GOP brain trust for 21st America.

America deserves better from an opposition party but this is the GOP vision for its future.

become such anti-waste advocates. Could it be because of the their stinging losses at the polls in our recent elections? I could certainly jump on the bandwagon of less government and fiscal responsibility at this moment. However, I believed the Republicans in the early 90's with that message only to see them morph into big gumament spenders after monopolizing power during the Bush administration. What causes do I have to trust them now? I fear it's just more of the same ole same lip service.

I suppose the taste of free money is just too intoxicating. Pray tell... where is there a spot at the trough for me?

There is no spot at the trough for you. I assume that you have a too high net worth for direct assistance, but not high enough for the financial bailout that the Republicans in Washington supported. I am disappointed by almost every politician. Where is the strict constructionist/limited government party? It isn't the democrats by a long shot and it hasn't been the republicans for a generation. The libratarians tend to be wacky. Where do I go?

you turn away from the national arena and work to establish the type of government you want on the local level. Only through re-establishing control of the government at the local can we, as voters, hope to change the political culture. If we do not re-train the voters, we will continue to be "represented" by the two major parties as envisioned by those folks at the top. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport

I have to reach deep into the recesses of my memory to retrieve this history lesson; but, it seems to me that the Republican party has morphed many times in the past 200 years. The Federalist beget the Whigs, then there were the Antimasons, then the National Republican party, etc.....all to compete with the Democratic party. It may be that the time has come for the Republican party to morph again.

I supported McCain in the last election. I do not buy that all our problems can be pinned on the Republicans. I do, however, realize that the Republican party needs to "re-structure" and present the people with a "plan".

Yardman, you are absolutely right. We have to start at the local level. Why is it that voter turnout in local elections is so low compared to Presidential elections?

Git Real, if you want to incite a revolution, I'm with you. But I can only do it on Mondays - that's my only day off and I'll have to bring the kids.

I supported McCain in the last election. I do not buy that all our problems can be pinned on the Republicans. I do, however, realize that the Republican party needs to "re-structure" and present the people with a "plan".

The Republicans have actually had several plans to which the American voter embraced enthusiastically. The most significant in recent history was The Contract With America in which much change and stabilization occurred a mere 2 years after the election of President Clinton. I always get a chuckle out of how Clinton always gets the credit for the swelling economy when he was seeking to expand the role and power of government in a tremendous manner. The American people were fearful and gave the power of Congress over to the Republicans allowing them to block the radical left's agenda at that time.

Things were going pretty good until (for God only knows what reason) the Republicans following the resignations of the failed Speaker-to-be Bob Livingston and Ole Newt, started compromising and abandoning the platform that made them so popular. It seems they had the ideas that resonated with the people. Only they were clueless or cowardly in their abilities to actually lead. Compromise became their new legislative tactic and we all know what happens when we compromise our principles away don't we?

So you are right Dawn. The Republican party needs to be purged from the top all the way down to the once effective grassroots level. It does indeed need to be reinvented. But by whom? The likes of Westmoreland, Chance, Seabaugh, Chambliss, Isackson, and Purdue? Oh...I forgot.... we've now got Palin leading the pack.

Why is it that voter turnout in local elections is so low compared to Presidential elections?

Most people that sit out the local elections do so because they are clueless as to the issues and who stands for what. So perhaps it is a good thing that the uninformed don't pull ballot levers.

Git Real, if you want to incite a revolution, I'm with you. But I can only do it on Mondays - that's my only day off and I'll have to bring the kids.

Mondays are good for me. Can we schedule right after I get out of the gym? Oh..kids are fine with me. I might have to bring mine along occasionally.

There are some things that do not happen!
I am not going to pretend to say why?

OK, would the Carter Center cut it's employees salaries due to the recession/depression? (I know your "sales" are up, but!)

How about politicians?

How about Town Managers, Mayors, etc.?

How about court house employees?

How about former President's budgets?
(I'm not picking on anyone, just asking)

How about Doctor office visits? Dentists?
(I think they have a lot to do with dragging on the economy)

Incentives, you know?

The difference between running a corporation (like the financials) and a union-strapped General Motors is that the corporation can cut jobs quickly and easily. With the exception of a couple of the banks involved in the TARP, all of the financial institutions have fired up to 20% of their workforce to reduce costs. Soon Wachovia and WaMu will be doing the same right here at home. GM can't fire front-line workers because of the union. So we are basically bailing out the UAW. The time for labor unions in this country has long past. Bust 'em!

A stopped clock shows the exact right time twice a day, but that does not make it a timepiece. The Republican party and its agenda are stopped clocks, and equally useful when it comes to doing anything constructive.

Union busting is not a good idea for one reason: it will be the working people who generate the wealth that brings the economy back, not management. Management created the need for unions, unions did not create the need for management.

Power to the people

"I can't wait until tomorrow, because I get more lovable every day."

At least it makes perfect sense to me. I don't agree with him on everything, but he has this one exactly right.

And I also agree with opustv (whatever that means) that 2010 will be the year that the country rears back and evicts the socialists. That crap has never worked anywhere else and it won't work her. Sad that it will take us 2 years to wake up and get our country back.

Vote Republican. Worked for eight years.

Vote for slick willie, the subprime mortgage king, and the pelosie welfare party, let's bail out all of the buisness failures, that is what works.

Just because those ceo's are dumber than snake mittens, ....thats no reason to turn them down....