Tell it all brother, tell it all!!!

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Are you saying that Satan (evil) has more power than God? I happen to understand that only God is in control - some just don't LISTEN! There are plenty of examples when those who didn't listen didn't treat all as children of God. What a mess that leads to!

To see an accurate picture of the meaning of what is truly happening in, and to this "world", we must understand the issues that were raised in the beginning by Satan, and also in the case of Job. Another question to consider is why did God NOT destroy Satan, Adam, and Eve immediately after their rebellion, when it was within His right and power to so?

The issues raised by Satan:

(1) The righteousness and rightfulness of God's sovereignty.

Was God withholding from mankind freedom that would contribute to their happiness? Were mankind's ability to govern their affairs successfully and their continued life truly dependent on their obedience to God? Had God been dishonest in giving a law that stated that disobedience would lead to their death? (Gen 2:16, 17; 3:3-5) Also, did God have the right to rule?

(2) The integrity of intelligent creatures toward God.

By the defection of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden the question was raised: Did God's servants really obey Him out of love, or might ALL of them abandon God and follow the lead being given by Satan? This latter issue was further developed in the days of Job. (Gen 3:6; Job 1:8-11, 2: 3-5; see also Luke 22:31.) Obviously, these questions could not be settled by merely executing the rebels.

Not that God NEEDED to PROVE anything to HIMSELF, but so that these issues would NEVER again disrupt the peace, and well being of the universe, God has allowed ample time for them to be settled beyond all doubt. That Adam and Eve died following disobedience to God became evident in due time. (Gen 5:5) However, more was at issue. So, God has permitted both Satan, and humans to try every form of government of their own making: NONE have brought lasting happiness! God has let mankind go to the limit in looking for ways of life that IGNORE His righteous standards. The fruitage speaks for itself. As the Bible truly states: "It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jer 10:23) At the Same time God has given His servants opportunity to prove their loyalty to Him by their acts of loving obedience, and this in the face of enticements, AND persecution instigated by Satan the Devil. God encourages His servants, saying: "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." (Prov 27:11) Those proving faithful reap great benefits now, and have the prospect of eternal life in perfection. Thay will use that life in doing the will of God, whose personality and ways they truly love.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

I'm not sure how to reconcile what you say with the following, from Romans 13:

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

And, generally, what you say here seems to suggest that Christian involvement in culture and government is futile. But shouldn't we suppose that the people of God should seek justice, peace, and human flourishing?

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

Darth, am I to assume that you are not Catholic? Afterall, Vatican city is its' own self governing entity....religous epicenter, governing body, and politcal state - the richest one, at that. It has been the papacy that has, historically, translated biblical text. Deciding, based on political agenda, what was to be included or excluded from the bible (case in point, the Book of Thomas). If you've not heard of this book, I'm not at all surprised for the papacy elected to exclude this text from your bible. They have dictated and contolled what you are allowed to know. Does Satan dress in papal garb? Perhaps.

I am NO part of what I refer to as "CHRISTENDOM", which is the Catholic church and all offshoots therefrom.

If you like my posts here, you'll love my next blog post: "Christendom's Fraud." Its gonna REALLY stir things up!

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Nothing in the Scriptures you cite tell us to PARTICIPATE IN the government itself, does it. It says pay taxes, and give respect does that mean, vote, run for office, or join the military. Go read Daniel 2:44. All the nations are just circling the drain. God's Kingdom is the only lasting one.

Putting faith in human government is only one disappointment after another, wouldn't you say? Things may seem to get better every once in awhile, but ultamately it always get worse, because Satan is at the wheel. Once you open your eyes to that fact you can see why things are so bad, and getting worse all the time.

Take the red pill, quit being led around like a puppet in a dream.

BTW thety call it the American DREAM because you have to ASLEEP to believe it.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

I hate wrangling over Bible verses--particularly when things can be settled by appeal to reason and a good dose of common sense.

But look again at the passage I cite. The authorities are "God's servants," and they deserve not only taxes but "respect" and "honor."

The mainstream of Christian thought is against you here, and you have mostly cultists and strange separatist groups on your side. The theology back of this is that lawfulness in general is of God and that, all other things equal, it is a Christian duty to support government. The exception, as seen in Peter's assertion in Acts--"We must obey God rather than men"--is when civil laws run clearly against the law of God.

All truth is God's truth and all virtue is divine. Justice, peace and compassion are godly, whether the person working for them realizes and acknowledges it or not. To climb up into the caves and await the parousia, while allowing society to go to hell in a handbasket is to shirk our duty as Christians and ignore the cultural mandate.

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

Can you not give respect and honor without being a part of the political process, and getting involved in the business, and wars conducted by the "wild beast?" Yes you can.

One can very much respect, and honor the jobs being done by those in government, while not allying oneself with the government itself. I know it is a very fine line, and this is just the way the "god of this world" (Satan) wants it! - 2 Cor 4:4

Jesus prayed for his disciples to remain "no part of the world" while they still lived within it. - John 17:13-18

Paying taxes, following laws, giving respect, and honor does not entail being a participant in government process.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Jesus made it quite clear that God's world is spiritual and eternal. Until we realize this, there are some guidelines set down throughout all ages to show 'man' how to exist in this mortal world while following the guidance of God. Each man/woman, as a reflection of God has the responsibility of following his/her own path of participating in the human experience. When one of the disciples was asked to pay his monetary homage to a King - Jesus provided the means for him to do so - while still acknowledging the divine authority of God, his father. Each of us has the responsibility to ‘listen’ and act as we are guided – I think.

Am I to understand you to mean that each individual can "listen" concerning anything except the divine authority of God, and make up his or her own mind?

Listen to whom?
There are 7 Billion of us on the earth!
I don't have a two-way with God or Jesus.

To set your mind at ease:

You DO have a two-way with God and Jesus.
It's called Prayer.

ZoeS

"Never love anything that can't love you back."

however God's only VERBAL communication with humans at this time is through the Holy Scriptures.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

If you're not aware of your comunication with a higher power - then sorry about that. Have a great day!

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

I rest my case.

____________________

"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

Before you do, let's examine Matt 26:52, it reads: "Jesus said to him 'Return your sword to its place for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.'"

Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Jesus indicated to his disciples that they were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.

Again at Luke 6:27,28 Jesus states: "I say to you who are listening, continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those insulting you."

Each person out of all nations must personally decide what course they will take based on their knowledge of the truth as found in His Word. Those who have heeded God's judgement give evidence that He is their God.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

I'll expound a bit.

When in grad school, I served as T.A. for an experimental course that involved some nine professors from a wide variety of disciplines at the university, from philosophy to biology to veterinary science to zoology.

In ine lecture, the philosophy professor involved made the comment, "If ever there was a war in which there was a side of the angels, it was world war II."

The biology professor, who was sitting in on the lecture, was German and had actually fought for Hitler. He laughed out loud.

Despite the laugh, I am very much inclined to think that the philosophy professor was right.

I think that Christian people should then have perceived tneir duty to do whatever was in their power to stop Hitler.

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

Is foolishness with God: for it is written: 'He catches the wise in their own cunning.' And again 'God knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.' Hence let no one be boasting in men." - 1 Cor 3:19-21

Just imagine if all professed Christians on both sides of WWII had performed their "Christian duty" of not killing their brothers and sisters of the same faith by refusing military service. There would have been no WWII, or WWI for that matter.

Just a thought.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

About the WWII thingy. Just how would that work regarding the war against the empire of Japan?
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The reasons behind Japan bombing Pearl Harbor are complex.

Japan wanted Asia and all its barrier islands. Had the US not frozen Japanese bank accounts, and cut off their fuel supply (which was against international war rules) they would have left the USA all alone, and FDR probably would have funded the Japanese side against Red China!

If you go and dig through the info available you'd be suprised the people who were looking for an excuse to get the US into WWII.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

I'm very familiar with the history. I was curious about your analogy regarding Christians fighting and if it applied to this theater of WWII as well.
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Japan would've had no allies, hence no reason for the US to act as it did regarding Japan's finances and fuel shipments.

Cause and effect. Elementary, my dear Cyclist.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

The only thing elementary here my dear Darth Vader is your avoidance to discuss your funny idea. So anyway, go back to your make believe world of Star Wars and your funny ideas about conspiracies.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

I have avoided nothing, and explained my positions very plainly. If you cannot grasp the physics of cause and effect, that is your shortcoming, not mine.

BTW, when did I mention a conspiracy? You alone have brought this subject into the equation. Sounds a little paranoid to me....

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Rather than rehash things I've already saod here, I'll refer you to this blog of more than a year ago.

On Trying to Love Terrorists

It is rather long, but it includes this:

Pacifism is a variety of absolutism about moral rules. Ethicists typically regard moral rules as prima facie obligations or duties such that, under normal circumstances, the duty applies. But there are possible circumstances in which one is morally justified in violating a rule that would otherwise hold. For example, I promise to meet a student for office hours at 10:00. All other things being equal, my duty dictates that I keep my promise and show up. But along the way, I pass an accident with injuries, and I am the first on the scene. Morality would also seem to dictate that I stop and help. But if I stop, I fail to keep my promised appointment. Does my duty to help override my duty to keep my promise? One would think so. But the pacifist regards the rule against physical violence as inviolable. Under no circumstances is it ever permissible to use violence against another person. In other words, it is impossible for the rule against violence to be outweighed or overridden by other moral considerations.

But why think a thing like that? Pacifism entails that the passengers on Flight 93, in attempting to fight off the hijackers and take control of the aircraft, were being immoral. Todd Beamer’s immortal words, “Let’s roll!” should rather have been, “Let’s talk this over,” or “Let’s remain seated.” If the pacifist is right, it would have been better for Hitler to advance unopposed than for the free world to resist in what became the Second World War. Allied forces would never have liberated those emaciated survivors of the death camps. The pacifist must believe that the rule against physical violence is of sufficient weight so as to trump all other moral rules that may come into conflict with it.

But what of the concern for justice and for the flourishing of the human spirit? Is it reasonable to think that the state of affairs in which violence is used is always worse than whatever state of affairs obtains in the event that we passively refrain? Is it better to allow a daughter to be raped than to use whatever force necessary to fight off her attackers? Here, I’ll chime in with Freud as he quoted the Latin, “Credo quia absurdum”: if I am asked to believe this then I am asked to believe an absurdity. Just as there are fates worse than death, there are circumstances worse than killing.

Policemen are called “peace officers,” yet they carry weapons, and are sometimes called upon to use them. And if God’s original intention for his creation was Shalom--a state of “universal, flourishing, wholeness and delight,” as one author has put it--sometimes the only way of sustaining Shalom--or at least sustaining our efforts towards its approximation--is through violence, and, perhaps, bloodshed.

This is at once paradoxical, lamentable and true.

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

defending oneself from immediate bodily injury, and death is not the same as volunteering to kill for the armed forces of national governments that are under Satanic influence.

As stated in my previous post, if ALL so called "Christians" (including ALL denominations)involved in both WWI, and II had REFUSED to fight and kill their "Christian" counterparts on the other side of the Atlantic, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN ON ARMIES AT ALL!!!

However this is impossible when (and this is just one example) The Vatican's top clergy is signing agreements with Hitler's Reich for Catholicism to be the official state religion. To be fair, the Catholic church was not alone, many other "Christian" sects were involved in the blessing of the war machine on BOTH sides.

To their personal credit many devout Christians were sent to the camps alongside Jewish captives for refusal to fight in Hitler's war machine.

In closing let me quote your last post a bit: "sometimes the only way of sustaining Shalom--or at least sustaining "OUR" efforts towards its approximation--is through violence, and, perhaps, bloodshed." - My point is that sustaining "Shalom" IS NOT OUR JOB! We CANNOT accomplish it. It is IMMPOSSIBLE for humans to achieve.

Here's another point I'd like to make: isn't it just a little arrogant on a human's part to assume that God NEEDS our help to accomplish anything? VERY.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Do you know the quote by Marcus Aurelius, "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but..... "?

Um, I had to look it up. Now I'm familiar with it.

Sadly, the religion meme can sometimes mutate and colonize an otherwise perfectly good brain.

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

Professing to be a Christian and actually being one are very different animals. You can only turn the cheek once.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Besides, I never said I WAS a Christian!!!

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

The bible is not against war...you are very much in the wrong

isn't against anything, it is an inanimate object, made of wood pulp, leather, and ink.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Could you please provide a reference for where in the Bible it says, "ALL world governments are controlled by Satan"?

It doesn't say that in mine anywhere that I can find. I did find this in Revelation 22:18, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."

God is the Universal Sovereign who CONFERS authority on others in accordance with His will, and purpose. However, Satan the Devil, the foremost rebel against God's sovereignty, IS "the ruler of this world" - this by God's permission for a limited period of time. The Bible depicts the global system of political rulership (mentioned in my previous post) as a "wild beast" stating that "the dragon [Satan the Devil] GAVE TO the wild beast its power and its throne and great authority." - John 14:30; Rev 13:2: 1 John 5:19

Any more questions? Feel free to ask, anytime.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Could you please provide a reference for where in the Bible it says, "ALL world governments are controlled by Satan"?

it seems that you are looking for nothing short of a verbatum quote from the Bible. I did not quote a verse which states those exact words, for it does not exist. However, the verses I gave you plainly state this fact, but since none are so blind as those who will not see, I shall go through this a little more in depth.

So, who rules this world - God or Satan?

John 14:30: "[Jesus said:]...the ruler of this world is coming. And he has no hold on me." This ruler obviously is not God, whose will Jesus always performed loyally. This "ruler of the world" must be "the wicked one," Satan the Devil, in whose power "the whole world is lying," as stated at 1 John 5:19. Although mankind lives on a planet that belongs to God, the world that is made up of those who are not God's obedient servants is under Satan's control because such people obey him. Those who wholeheartedly submit to God's rulership are not part of that world. See 2 Cor 4:4

Rev 13:2: The dragon [Satan the Devil] gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority." Comparison of the description of this "beast" with Daniel 7 indicates that it represents human government, not just one such, but the GLOBAL system of rulership. That Satan is its ruler agrees with Luke 4: 5-7, also Revelation 16:14, 16, which depicts demonic utterances as leading the rulers of the earth to war against God at Armageddon. Satan's rulership of the world is one that is merely tolerated by God until His appointed time for settling the issue of universal sovereignty.

Yet another passage to consider are the temptations of Christ. Luke 4:5-8 reads: "So he [Satan the Devil] brought him [Jesus] up and showed him ALL THE KINGDOMS of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; and the Devil said to him: 'I will GIVE you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been DELIVERED TO ME, and to whomever I wish I GIVE it. You therefore, if you do an act of worship to me, it will all be yours.' In reply Jesus said to him: 'It is written, "It is the Lord your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you must render sacred service."'" (boldcase mine)

This is where LOGIC and REASONING come into play: If Satan did not own and control ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE INHABITED EARTH, how is it possible to tempt Jesus with the GIFT of them, hmmm? For if he did not own them, would Jesus not have called him on it, by saying they were not his to GIVE?

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

It's a free country.

If God were really in charge of the USA, not one of our fellow citizens would be homeless, hungry, or forgotten, NONE.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

believe whatever you want. It's a free country.

Not really. I mean, you know, with Satan in charge and all.

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

True freedom is the illusion of this world. We have but two choices before us, serve God, or serve Satan the Devil. The trick is learnimg what each entails so that we make an INFORMED decision. To do this we must learn God's way of thinking, and to do that we must read, and study the Bible.

Proverbs 3:5, 6: "Trust in God with all your heart and do not lean on your OWN understanding. In all your ways take notice of Him, and HE Himself will make your paths straight.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Well, dubious, as for me and my house....

It's the entailment thing that I believe you've managed to skew.

We live in a fallen world, and this goes a long way towards explaining the ills that you mention above, not to mention a certain justified skepticism regarding any assertion that the world's ills will be solved by plots or programmes, governmental or otherwise. Our trouble is not external to us, and so the solution cannot be utopian.

But it certainly does not follow that those of The Civitas Dei should withdraw behind walls. Nor does it follow that any and all forms of government are essentially satanic.

Civilization is better than savagery and democracy trumps totalitarianism. You would have the Christian indifferent to the difference.

Here's a good piece to read in this connection:

GKC: The Eternal Revolution.

"In the best Utopia, I must be prepared for the moral fall of any man in any position at any moment; especially for my fall from my position at this moment." G.K. Chesterton
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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

but, I never said anything about WITHDRAWING oneself behind walls. Believe me, I will be the first one to say that complete isolationism is unhealthy, bordering on cultish. You are taking what I'm trying to say to the utter extreme...my point is you CAN live in and amongst the evil Satanically controlled world WITHOUT participating in its governmental workings, and trappings.

That's what Jesus prayed for God to help his disciples do just before he was arrested, and I don't think he would've prayed to his Father for something that is impossible to accomplish, with God's help.

If you can't see it well, you just can't see it. I've done my best, and have done what was required to show you.

Best Regards In Liberty,

DarthDubious

I'll argue politics and leave the religion to you.

Do not vote, do not support anyone in it, ignore them as much as possible.

Are you sure that paying taxes is not your problem?

Is it Ok to obey the laws the government makes?

Are we to have any kind of general leadership?
If so what? Only Christian elders maybe?

Will they operate off of tithes?

Can they declare war?

I suppose church government is Ok?

No you said it. Again someone takes things from one extreme to the other. Let's try a little LOGIC:

What does God expect of the U.S. government? Well the Bible says that Satan is in control of earthly governments, so God would expect evil and tyranny from all human forms of rulership.

I can hear the gasps from the audience now. How can you possibly say that America is controlled by the Devil? Because over and over the Bible says it is so. - 2 Co 4:4, 1 John 5:19, Rev 12:19

So, where does that leave YOU, a citizen of this nation, the government of which is controlled by God’s adversary the Devil? One must be very careful in how he/she views civic responsibilities. The Pharisees of Jesus day knew that well, so they asked him a question to try to get him to break the law, and speak out against the Roman government: “Is it lawful to head tax to Caesar or not? Shall we pay, or shall we not pay?”

In answer he asked to see a Roman coin, and asked whose image and name were on the coin. Of course it was Caesar’s. Jesus’ answer was most profound and witty: “Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” – Mark 12:14-17

The first part of his answer is very simple; pay your taxes, obey the laws of the land, but we must temper those laws with the second part of his answer that is profound in its meaning. What is meant by paying back God’s things to God? What does God require of citizens of this nation, or any nation? One must again look to God’s word for the answer.

A scribe asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was. Jesus replied, “The first is, ‘hear oh Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” – Mark 12: 28-31

All moral standards are wrapped up in these two rules. Nine of the Ten Commandments: Worship of false gods, worship of idols, Taking God’s name in vain, honoring of parents, killing, adultery, theft, lying, and jealous envy.

Nationalism is a religion in itself practiced by saluting flags (idols). Putting your faith in the government of any nation is putting faith in Satan’s system of rulership. Christians must follow a nation’s laws until they conflict with God’s laws, military service is not required, for that would mean killing fellow humans, civic duties end there, when Christians, as stated by Peter: “must obey God as ruler rather than men.” – Acts 5:29

Go read Psalms 146:3. Voting is putting your faith in nobles is it not?

BTW I belong to NO church, as they are as corrupt as any other institution, and are at the bottom of the dirt in this world as far as i am concerned. I rest my case.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Sorry Jeff, Genesis 3:5 reads: "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and YOU WILL BE LIKE GOD, knowing good and evil."

BTW "Babylon the Great" is ALL RELIGIONS, to be destroyed by the political "Wild Beast", the image of which is the U.N.

Wake up.

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

just finished watching "It's the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown" with my children...
Linus' words of wisdom for ya'll....he says there's 3 things you don't discuss:
Religion, Politics and the Great Pumpkin!

It is Revelation without the (s)
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In my KJV it's listed as The Revelation of St. John the Divine.

But you're right... no "s".

"And the Dark One of woolen head shall arise and he shall lead many astray. He shall say "Peace" when there is no peace. And many shall trust and many shall hope, but the serpent shall rise behind him and strike the unwise. And great shall be the suffering in the nation of the eagle until the return of the true King."

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

"...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen."

Oh ye offshoot of the king Muddle, the answer lies within my chosen ones
who shall rise again and again fighting for that sand and windy God forsaken place, known as Holy place.
If one digs deep into the sand one can find great pools of blood of the chosen and the non-chosen from many battles for 7000 suns, all who swore that their cause was just.
But the Russians are yet to come for the final destruction in this God forsaken place and will set the path to salvation of the strong.

And the light one of white top shall arise and he shall lead many home. He shall say no lost war when that is all we have. And many have trusted for eight long years and many still hope for success at the castles of the money changers. Be it therefore said though that suffer we must by the wooley wise and wait until Newt the appraiser and Gort the latter saint and gigilo of the the many faceted wives one await by criticism for four long years. Then and only then will sound and true conserves again lord over.

You know people here are going to believe that.

I'll be on Drudge tomorrow. I'll be getting e-mails quoting you by the weekend.

come on, Annie Ruth, muddle is pulling your limb.

Revelation 17:5 actually reads, "And upon the forehead was a name written, Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth."

Is this the reference Hagee used when referring to Catholocism as the great whore?

Annie...a question for you and other end-timers: If one day, the true anti-christ shows up and we have a chance to vote for this person, wouldn't that vote help usher in Jesus's return? Don't you and the end-timers actually want to launch the 'end of days' and subsequently Jesus's return?

I'm just trying to understand you folks.

The only thing to understand is "great fear," of not being in the "grace," when it occurs!

As to why they constantly preach that it is coming soon, no one knows nor will ever understand!

It is clearly said that no one knoweth the day or the hour!
It is kinda like: do you want to know if you will die of cancer at 51?

If you get to where you understand them you will be lost.

I SO want to play in their sandbox!

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that Obama does not win the Presidency, is he still the antichrist? Well, I guess that would screw up Revelation AND the Mayan calender for the end of days.

Come on people, I didn't vote for Obama either...but, antichrist? Really?

"The more like angels we act, the less government we need. The less like angels we act, the more government we need." - Jack Anderson

When you get a zoonotic disease don't blame me.

Enough tonight... Lordy help me last 5 more days...

Told ya.

no less than 20 verses.

so much for your Theology degree!

No it doesn't. Let's see the list.

in four verses is antichrist mentioned in the Bible, and none are in Revelation, HAH!!! (that's for Hammer BTW, I hate people that think they know what they're talking about but don't) They are listed in a good concordance I have: antichrist, antichrist's, and antichrists, not THE antichrist. There is no THE.
1Jo 2:18, 2:22
2Jo 7
1Jo 4:3

In Liberty,

DarthDubious

Now, I claim departmental immunity on such things, but I'm pretty sure that when John used the term "antichrist" (ἀντίχριστος) in his letters, he wasn't referring to an individual at all, much less a sinister and satanic future world leader.

The context is one of the first Christian heresies--gnosticism. They imported Greek philosophy into their version of Christianity, and, with that, the view that the material world is essentially corrupt. That posed a problem for the Christian assertion that God, had become incarnate. One version of gnosticism ("docetic") claimed that Christ was divine but merely seemed to have a human body.

This probably explains the opening to the first letter: "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life..." That is, "Look, I knew the guy, and I can guarantee you that he was as human as you and I."

This is the context for his saying that whoever denies that Christ has come in the flesh has the spirit of antichrist. It's apparently an attitude or an orientation--not a person. He is, in effect, saying that this denial is incompatible with Christian doctrine--it is anti-Christian or heretical.

John is known to have opposed the gnostics. One likely true extra-biblical anecdote has him in Ephesus about to enter a bath house. Someone told him that Cerenthus, one of the leading gnostics, was inside. He said, in effect, "Run for your lives because the enemy of truth is inside and the roof will likely collapse!"

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"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue

For adding a calm educated point of view to this discussion.

So does the Koran and the End of Days movie with Arnold Scwharzennegger.
Hammer, you need to go back to grade school and learn how to spell "Revalations", the last book in "Da Baibel"

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Making you think twice......

You are an economist, a foreign policy expert, a campaign finance expert....is there anything you aren't an expert at?

Everything else that you didn't list.

sniffles5 and dragnet are both liberal, socialists that want to destroy America!!!!!! JUST LIKE BARACK OBAMA!

Oh and Mike King, JEFFC and Yo... ya'll can get in the boat with them.

If Obama gets in...by summer of next year ya'll will be calling for his head. He is NOT who he makes out to be.

If I were you I'd sue.

Jeff, I am at a loss. Perhaps you are right, please give Richard a break and I'll consider retaining him.
On the other hand, do you think Drag and the rest of us could paddle this boat in a coordinated manner? I'll still get the tackle box.

You paddle on the right and I'll paddle on the left.

Fair and balanced.

JeffC cries to a court...."He hurt my wittle feelings..that bad conservative". So if Obama gets elected this is what we have to look forward to. Our court systems will be clogged up with Bull$hit cases like that and real criminals will stay free and vote as democrats.

Dang, ya'll really thought this through..the libs are smarter than I thought!

Reread it please. It's not funny if I have to explain it to you.