House bailout defeated 228-205

Mon, 09/29/2008 - 2:18pm
By: The Citizen

The U.S. House voted against a $700 billion bailout for the country’s troubled financial markets Monday afternoon, and Fayette County’s representative hopes a solution can be found.
U.S. Rep. Lynn Westmoreland voted against the $700 billion bailout plan, but pledged his support for returning to work on the issue immediately after Rosh Hashanah.
“As the financial crisis has unfolded over the past year, we’ve slowly watched the dominos drop one after another and we’ve seen one bailout after another,” Westmoreland said in a press release.
“Each time we were told: ‘This bailout is going to fix the problem.’ We’ve already spent hundreds of billions of dollars that our government does not have and yet the problems continue to deepen. I’ve read all the documents and listened to the experts and no one can say – not even with nearly $1 trillion on the line – that this will work.
“Undoubtedly, this is one of the toughest votes that I’ve taken in Congress. When faced with a tough decision, I rely on my principles-that smaller government is better and that markets work better bureaucratic decisions. While this bailout may work in the short term, I’m concerned greatly about the long-term consequences. When government willingly steps in to rescue people from risky behavior, government creates an incentive for future risky behavior. When businesses accept greater regulation in order to receive a bailout, we enlarge government, distort markets and render capitalism less efficient.
“I do believe that our nation faces great financial challenges right now, and I believe that Congress should act. But the House should not appropriate up to $700 billion for a bill that didn’t exist until a few days ago and that never went through one committee hearing. This legislation costs way too much to pass through Congress with so little scrutiny. If the process is broken, the product is flawed. Combined with war costs, other bailouts and the stimulus packages, we can’t afford to be wrong with a price tag this high.
“I have supported an alternative plan that would lower taxes and regulations to create an incentive for private money, foreign and domestic, to flow back into the credit markets. Unfortunately, alternative versions were shut out of this closed process.”

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muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 2:14pm.

As I've confessed here before, I have trouble balancing my own checkbook, let alone understanding all of the nuances of macroeconomics.

But I note that our own Lynn Westmoreland voted against the measure. This makes me suspect that the plan was brilliant and should have been passed.

____________________

"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue


Submitted by Bonkers on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 2:46pm.

I doubt Mr. Westmoreland even cared what was in the bill. He did know that Georgia republicans did not want anyone controlling the dish-out of 700 billions + dollars by anyone except a republican, Paulson in this case.

When the bill was amended to alleviate that sore point, he knew he would not get re-elected if he voted yes! Not in his district!
I doubt he gave a thought as to whether anyone or any business may go under while he waited for another bill to vote on.

The bill now will be expanded to bail-out many more people and of course will eventually cost much more than the 700 billion.
The congress, including Westmoreland may vote for that next bill, as they are, or will be by then, desperate.
The real question though is whether Bush will veto such a bill--it would totally defeat McCain and other republicans in November if he didn't veto it! But, if he does veto it, it won't be overidden by the republicans!
So we start over with a third bill!
No one wants to be blamed for 100 years for this one!

So, we may not get a Cash bailout bill for the republicans nor a Socialistic bill for the rest of the population---yes, the local republicans---builders, etc., want a socialistic bailout for this one-time!

Submitted by UrKidding on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 11:15am.

Sep 1999 some text provided below. Is it an Economic downturn or greed that got us here? Worth reading I thought anyway.

http://query.nytimes.com/
gst/fullpage.html?res=
9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&scp=
1&sq=september%201999%20fannie%20mae&st=cse

Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending

BuzzPermalinkBy STEVEN A. HOLMES
Published: September 30, 1999
In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans.

Submitted by UrKidding on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:57am.

that we are all at fault. I didn't go out and live beyond my means. I didn't agree with banks being allowed to loan money to anyone and everyone because they could sell the home before a balloon payment was due and make money. Then take that money and use it to make a down payment on another home that's way beyond their means. And for wallstreet to buy the over valued high risk debt.

Fyt35's picture
Submitted by Fyt35 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 6:45am.

We are all at fault!

Democrats.

Republicans.

Undecided.

Those that chose to live way beyond their means; who bought the big houses they could not afford; who are loaded up in credit card and auto loan debt just to keep up with the Jones’s. Those who chose the lifestyle of the rich and famous on a Keystone Light budget.

We are all at fault for not listening to each other and trying to head off this problem years ago.

We are all at fault for playing partisan politics instead of putting forth what is good for the nation.

I’m against the bailout; screw credit! Let it all crumble and fall apart; then we will start fresh with hopefully a better understanding on how to better manage our budget.

Let the free market sort it out!


sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:23am.

While I agree with you that there is more than enough blame to go around, I would like to point out a few things.

Certain ignorant posters continue to claim that the underlying cause of this financial crisis was the enactment of the CRA back in 1977.

I read a very good analysis recently (I'm searching my "History" tab for the link) that points out that the tip of the spear of this economic crisis was massive overbuilding of the most profitable homes in America today, the $350,000 McMansion.

Builders make more money at this price point than at any other price, so naturally money flowed into this market segment. They had history and analyses to back up the rationale for building in this segment, and banks were all too happy to loan money to developers to build these homes.

While this strategery worked on a microeconomic level, there were larger forces at work on the macroeconomic level: in particular, there were only so many people that could afford to buy these McMansions. Developers got overextended beginning in 2006 and that segment crumbled: sketchy mortgages were created to artificially keep demand up, but ultimately a dearth of buyers forced a market contraction. (see also: Centennial subdivision in PTC)

Because many developers focused on this segment to the exclusion of all others (hey, it was the MOST PROFITABLE!), a number of them took a financial bath, which in turn caused construction loan portfolios of smaller to mid-market banks to sour.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:57am.

I wouldn't go that far; perhaps they were not seeing the complete picture. Here's the WSJ's take.
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sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:07pm.

While I normally equate WSJ opinion pieces as only slightly less odious than the neo-Nazi Townhall.com crap that Garvin posts, there is one little kernel of truth that I overlooked.

Specifically, the "easy money" policy of the Fed from 2003-2005. It was an anomaly in American economic history, artificially low interest rates that almost single-handedly propped up the economy and temporarily postponed an inevitable business contraction that is part of the regular economic cycle.

Hmmm...whatever could have possessed the Fed to adopt a short-sighted policy in that time frame?

2004....2004....what happened that year?

Oh yeah! An unpopular president running for re-election!


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:32pm.

I think artificially low interest rates has been the biggest factor to the fiasco right now. In terms of banking, investing, and debt at the higher levels, keeping interest rates low stimulated a lot of business activity that normally wouldn't have happened because of risk/reward. WAY too much easy-to-obtain money and when the housing industry started to slow, the whole house of cards built around borrowing and investing in debt derivatives started to collapse. Wall St. and others had devised a virtual Ponzi of taking on debt and relying on reselling debt-based investments to investors to keep the ponzi going. Well, like all Ponzis including Social Security, you run out of investors and the whole thing collapses in a steaming pile. At the end of the day, debt+ more debt profits, even when the Fed is keeping interest rates very low by manipulating the money supply and Fed Reserve system. It can for a short while, but eventually the new money stops coming in and it all becomes worthless paper.

While consumers are hardly blameless as they lead the way on using debt for way too much, Wall St,our government and the Fed's terrible monetary policies are out in front on this.


Submitted by winer on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:59pm.

it recognizes no one party/color/race. Google: Charlotte Sold a Nightmare. It will take you to a series of articles from this summer I believe. $1.00 down gets you in a house - even if you are a teenage couple, just months from HS graduation making under $10 hour. It has to be the scariest scenerio I have ever read. I assumed the 20% down, PMI, earnings to debt ratio was still the law of the land. Living in PTC, I guess I wasn't exposed to these kind of subdivisions. Is this what sprung up along the 74 ramp to I-85? Preditory doesn't even begin to describe it.

It may have started with the Community Reinvestment Act but some greedy people found a way to make it work for them and we are all going to pay for this for a long time.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:46pm.

over the last 15 years was a result of "cheaper" money.
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Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:20pm.

I already conceded to JeffC that this whole episode will play in the direction of the Democrats. Who knows, your man just might make it after all.
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Submitted by TyroneTerror on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 11:43am.

right on the money probably. They do a pretty good job of recognizing how and why things happen.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:14pm.

It's about the most condensed story.

It just so happens while I was at the doctors office I spied upon a copy of the May edition of the Economist. It goes through very detailed analysis of the "upcoming" problems and acknowledges much of the same as the WSJ opinion but additionally, notes the international ramifications. I'll report back later.

One thing though, us mere mortals will probably never see everything.
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Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:10am.

Luckydog also posted some good info.

Many things contributed to this mess. The point I was trying to make is that it was not just the Republicans.

We may have lost money on paper yesterday, but as long as we didn't cash out we really didn't lose anything. Way, way back when I started investing the dow was well below 10, thousand. Yesterday with the record drop it still ended above 10,thousand. Not bad.
I may not be able to retire when I'm eligible, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I think the bailout would be a very short term fix for a large problem.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:30am.

You're right on that point, we did not loose any "skin". My concern is with the inability of obtaining credit. Businesses needs the ability to "float" activities in order to achieve seamless money flow and operations. This float is achieved through credit. I now the company that I work for is very concerned. It's to the point that certain activities are not taking place with the hope that monies will be available tomorrow - October 1.

I'm curious on how farmers will be able to get credit for seed stock. I suspect we should be hearing about that soon. They will complain and those in Congress will listen.
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Fyt35's picture
Submitted by Fyt35 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:57am.

Could there possibly be a way to float credit with limits? How long does a company normally float credit for?


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 11:24am.

However, limitations would possibly diminish returns and or increase the risk. As for the length of time, that's a variable. If it is for payroll; perhaps two weeks. If it's a farmer buying seed then the length of time is measured in months.

To all my fellow bloggers out there, I ain't no expert on this matter. All I have is a "sheep skin" that is tacked on the wall that says that I have been educated in the principle. Perhaps Git, wulf, loveptc, Main or others that actually run a business or in real estate will provide enlightenment.
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Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:58am.

good point cyclist, regarding companies not being able to get credit....

I read this comment yesterday from someone, talking about how this will eventually affect us, even those NOT invested in the the market:

"...what a market crash means to people who aren’t invested in the market. This is primarily a credit crisis, and our country runs on credit. The first thing it means that people who want loans and can qualify for them won’t be able to get them.

You won’t be able to buy or sell your home. You won’t be able to buy a car. You can’t get any new credit cards, and may not be able to use your existing cards. You won’t be able to buy anything on credit at all.

A level away, it means many businesses will run out of cash. Many of them use short term lines of credit to make payroll - and that’s businesses large and small. They won’t be able to expand their businesses, move their businesses, nothing. Many of them will fail.

The dollar will fall. Everything will cost more to you - food, clothing, utilities. We will fall deeper into a recession.

As businesses fail, people will lose their jobs, maybe you will lose yours. With unemployment high, opportunities to find new jobs will be few and far between. Employers will pay less, if you can find a job at all.

So, that’s how a market crash, particularly because of a credit crisis will effect you.

And that is what our lawmakers, in all their political posturing about ’saving Wall Street’ have either failed to convey to everyone, or don’t understand themselves.”


Fyt35's picture
Submitted by Fyt35 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:55am.

Heck, what were we thinking when we let the president, or Obama or McCain for that matter chime in on a fix for this problem? And our dysfunctional congress?
This should he handled by economists, financial gurus, experts in the field, real business people.
Those in charge a being reactive; this should have been handled some time ago.
You can’t tell me that those in the know did not see this coming.

Its time to get our house in order!


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:09am.

Somebody forgot to tell those Somali pirates about the dollar's plight. There are still demanding $20 million for Russian made equipment. Apparently, they don't want those stuip Rubles. The Dollar still rules in............Somalia. Smiling

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Submitted by Spyglass on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:46am.

Good folks/companies are having a hard time finding credit in many cases. "Something" needs to be done. I don't have the answers, but doing nothing may be worse for all of us in the long run.

Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:06am.

Well said.

I agree let the free market sort it out. The economy will recover, and hopefully we will all learn to live within our means.

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:03am.

I remember, the few times we would attend the boat and camper show, there were bank representatives on hand at little tables who would extend credit on the spot - all you'd have to do is take out a mini home equity loan on your property and folks were able to get their new toy. Or, just put it on a credit card! A boat?! A camper?! On a credit card. Unbelievable....

It was obvious that so many of those people had no business buying more expensive toys on credit but the banks made it so easy. I'll bet a lot of those people are living in their boats and campers now, having lost their house.

-------
"You can lead a Republican to the truth, but you can't make him think."


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:33am.

I live out of my trailer at least two weeks a year at the beach. There nothing like trailer trash life. Smiling
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Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:42am.

yup, I luv that trailer trash livin' too.

We sold our camper last month (not using it much) and paid off several bills... glad we did!

-------
"You can lead a Republican to the truth, but you can't make him think."


dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:13am.

I read in a post a few days ago that muddle's blog image is one of his own paintings. Is that correct? If so, we have alot in common - I'm an artist too. Would love to see more of his work. I still haven't figured out how to add an image to my post.

Qoute for the Day:
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." -Voltaire


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 6:25am.

off. Smiling
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Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 6:22am.

Check your link.
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bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 5:42am.

With friends like this we'll be broke by noon.

Fed Pumps Further $630 Billion Into Financial System

“The Fed's expansion of liquidity, the biggest since credit markets seized up last year, came hours before the U.S. House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion bailout for the financial industry.”


Submitted by UrKidding on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:06pm.

I don't see this as Dem or Rep and maybe I'm just making it to simple (easy on the replies no shots below the belt). I see this as simple "greed" who can make the most and the fastest with disregard to anyone no matter how/who changed policy. Now that the bottom has fallen out, of the real estate market, it's point the finger at each other how it happened. How does it get fixed? The market has to hit rock bottom and we'll all feel the pain no matter what. The question is what is rock bottom before we see improvement. I really don't know but hold cash reduce debt and don't borrow on what you think is equity. It doesn't exist.

Submitted by MacTheKnife on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 7:00pm.

You Obama supporters want to see what you are in for?

See who most helped to create this mess that began in the Carter administration?

As far as the character of B. H. Obama is concerned:

Google BO Ayers
Google BO Khalid al-Mansour
Google BO Donald Warden
Google BO Mohammed Hasan Chandoo
Google BO Rezko
Google BO Saul Alinski
Google BO Wright
Google BO Khalidi
Google BO Malcolm X
Google BO Alwaleed bin Talal
Google BO Farrakhan
Google BO Woods Fund
Google BO Red Party
Google BO ACCORN
Google BO The Black Panthers

But since your mind is already made up, maybe others will google some of those and form a more objective opinion.

As for me, I am trying to get John McCain to finish the climb from a 4x6 cell in Hanoi all the way to the White house.

Submitted by PTC4LIFE on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 7:34pm.

The youtube video is exactly what the mainstream press is giving a free pass to Democrats on, and it is pissing me off.

Bush is to blame for over spending on any bill Denny Haster put in front of him.

Whoever it was that said minorities cannot be asked for proof of income/job, and then denied, is very mis-informed. The problem is that Fannie and Freddie were promoting subprime loans and were ok with no proof income/job.

Yes, the community reinvestment act was primary factor in the problem today.

deadeye's picture
Submitted by deadeye on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 5:22pm.

Well, I guess the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse will show up next...


Submitted by TyroneTerror on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 4:56pm.

or is JeffC just echoing his Democrat buddy's talking points? I venture to say the latter.

Either way he's eager to lay the blame at the feet of the Republicans. Although "40 percent of Democrats and two-thirds of Republicans opposed the legislation in the 205-228 vote against the bill."

Evil Elvis's picture
Submitted by Evil Elvis on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 9:23pm.

Can YOU pull off both a Boston accent AND gay lisp at the same time?


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 6:14pm.

67% of the R's voted against it. 60% of the D's voted for it. Exactly how does that may it the D's fault? This was Bush's plan that McCain parachuted in the get passed. It was a massive failure of the R's leadership. They didn't support THEIR President and they didn't support THEIR candidate.

House Republican leader John Boehner said, "We want them to support this because it is the right thing to do for this country."

And they didn't do the right thing for the country. For political reasons.


Submitted by TyroneTerror on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 11:36am.

The Dems have control and have the votes to get it passed. Have you ever played any sports? Didn't your coach ever tell you not to blame the officials or anyone else for a loss? You can always look to yourself or your team and see something you could have done better to avoid losing.

Well, if the Dems could have gotten their house in order, they wouldn't have needed the Republicans.

I know there is something that needs to be done, is this bailout it? I don't know, obviously many Dems and Republicans thought it wasn't. So the blame can't fall only on the Republicans.

Fact is we can bail everyone out, but if there isn't significant reform in the mortgage industry, we'll be right back here again. Toomany people think "Home Ownership" is a constitutional right, it is not. Some people just shouldn't have a mortgage, they either don't have the discipline to pay it or just flat out can't afford it.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:21pm.

You've got your sports analogies mixed up.

This was REPUBLICAN GEORGE BUSH, JOHN MCCAIN and PAULSON's PLAN!!!

Did your coach ever tell you to play so that the other side won?


Submitted by TyroneTerror on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 4:24pm.

JEFFC you misinterpreted what I said. If it was the Republicans plan , then you should have been glad to see it fail! What gives? You were the one that said the Republicans didn't live up to their side of the deal. My point was, that if the Dumbocrats wanted it to pass, then thay can't look any further to pass blame than their own party.

The truth is this, the Dumbocrats don;t give a Rats A$$ about this Bail out plan. It's a so called bi-partisan plan, if it fails the Dumbocrats will blame the republicans for coming up with this awful plan, if it succeeds then they'll try and take credit for it.

Submitted by jokerman on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 7:03pm.

They could have passed this on their own. They DO have the majority, by the way. This was bipartisanship in action.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:12pm.

Why on earth should it be up to the Dem's to pass this unilaterally?? This was REPUBLICAN GEORGE BUSH's PLAN!!!

If BUSH'S plan fails, why should it be fall on the Democrats?

Go back to this morning when McCain and his campaign manager and Mitt were all on the TV claiming credit for passing the plan that didn't pass.


Submitted by wheeljc on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 3:52pm.

What lost today's vote was the current speaker (Nancy Pelosi)! What possessed her to lambast the republicans prior to this critical vote is totally beyond me, BUT SHE IS NO LEADER! Through her partisan speech today, she set up some members who may lose on November 4 -- not against them as much as there will be a vote against HER!!

The Good LORD was probably looking down on us, for this was a clear vote NO FOR SOCIALISM!!

There is enough blame to go around on this fiasco. The Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999, started the ball rolling. And while there is a lot of blame to be placed on the Administration for not ram rodding more regulation through, there is a lot of culpability in Franklin Raines (Clinton's former OMB chief), Jim Johnson (initially Obama's VEEP search committee chair) and Jamie Gorelick (all over the Clinton administration -- DOD & Justice to name two), and their cheer leaders in Congress. Candidly, it is probably time for a new chair of the banking committee. Barney Franks provided a lot of cheerleading to keep lose credit going, as did Chris Dodd in the Senate.

Point being, it is time for new leadership in the House and Senate. We cannot afford the current speaker any longer. In the largest vote of her career -- she lost! 40% of the Democrats DID NOT VOTE FOR THE BILL!! Historians will ask the rhetorical question: WHAT WAS SHE THINKING?????

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 4:09pm.

I think your analysis is so wrong.

"40% of the Democrats DID NOT VOTE FOR THE BILL!!"

How about 67% of the Republicans that voted against it?

Pelosi made a partisan speech and the Republicans didn't vote for Bush's proposal? Don't you realize that we're going to kill you with that. Poor, poor Republicans got their precious feelings hurt and voted to destroy the economy????


Submitted by skyspy on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 5:22pm.

Which is good.

It was not surprising that Republicans didn't like the "welfare"bailout for rich bankers.

It was surprising that a democratic controlled congress saw the wisdom in saying no to this bailout.

Folks this is how the great depression started with our gov. bailing out failing banks and lowering the value of the dollar. It lasted for 10yrs, compared to the bank failure in 1920/21 when the gov. told them to go pound sand. That recession didn't last as long as the great depression, only a year or 2.

This financial mess started with the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977. Then Bill Clinton helped it along when he made it illegal to ask minorities if they had a job before giving them a mortgage loan. HUH??? It was and is still illegal to ask people of color if they have jobs before giving them hundreds of thousands of dollars.??? What the...??!!

This policy has hurt the people it was supposed to help. Their credit will be ruined with foreclosures for at least 10yrs.

There is a lot of blame to go around. The democratic policies started this, but we have had a Republican president who had a Republican congress for a few years at least. They could have reversed the carter/clinton housing plans.

Jeff, if the dems wanted to make this happen they have majority control and could have done it. Stop with the "but, but"... Please you sound like obamination " I, I, I have a bracelet too!!" Or my favorite, "I, I, have an energy plan too" Have you been to all "57 states"??

Submitted by Bonkers on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 6:17pm.

Do I understand you to say that Hoover did a good job and Roosevelt caused the Great Depression?
The banks had NO MONEY when Roosevelt closed them! The bank runs weren't caused on FDRs watch!

As to minorities being asked if they had a job being illegal, that makes NO SENSE. No bank was told to loan people money for homes who were unemployed! Besides a good banker will check your employment out anyway unless he can pawn off the loan quickly to someone else, thern he is a bad banker!

Now the worst thing I have ever seen concerning lack of logic was the House republicans today saying that the democrats defeated the bail-out bill when twice as many republicans voted to defeat it as did democrats!

They justified such an illogical thing by saying: well, the republicans had to vote no or they couldn't be re-elected in their districts!!~!!!! But the democrats didn't!

Can principles be violated any worse than that?

If I hear John McCain say such a thing also, I'm changing my vote!

The durn thing needed to be defeated but actually it will be even bigger when it ever does pass. Everyone will get bailed out who screwed up---those who made their payments, won't!

But for goodness sakes don't blame the democrats for today's vote!

Submitted by skyspy on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 6:47pm.

When the nurses bring you your evening meds it will become more clear. Right now the democrats hold the majority. If they wanted to out vote the Republicans they could have. But they didn't, and now they are trying to shift the blame.

Submitted by Bonkers on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 4:21am.

Are you for this bill?

Why should democrats vote for a Wall Street only bailout?

Republicans want the money given in cash to the banks with no security for us about our money. Borrowers were totally at fault, everyone of them, none of the banks did anything wrong and should be helped out!

They are the loaners of money (mine)--we need them!
Also, maybe you can answer this question for me:

Republicans say that we must give the banks these free loans for some trash they have since the banks are not loaning money now!
Just how are the banks going to make a living if they don't loan money? It is a bluff! No, it is blackmail. Call them!

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 6:01pm.

First, all y'all republicans complain that Obama is a messiah, then you complain when he creates 7 new states! You can't have it both ways.

Your statement that, "Then Bill Clinton helped it along when he made it illegal to ask minorities if they had a job before giving them a mortgage loan. HUH??? It was and is still illegal to ask people of color if they have jobs before giving them hundreds of thousands of dollars.??? What the...??!!" is absolutely false. Didn't happen, hasn't happened. Show me the law and I'll eat my words.


Submitted by skyspy on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 6:44pm.

Here is what my google search came up with.

"Ninja Style Loans"

Clinton Era: The National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream.

Buisness Week:

The National Homeownership Strategy began in 1994. Clinton directed HUD Secretary Henry Cisneros to come up with a plan for creative measures to promote homeownership.

"For many potential homebuyers, lack of cash available to accumulate the required downpayment and closing costs is the major impediment to purchase a home. Other housholds do not have sufficient available income to make the monthly payments on mortagages financed at market interest rates for standard loan terms. Financing strategies fueled by the creativity and resources of the private and public sectors, should address both of these financial barriers to homeownership."

Reforming the Community Reinvestment Act helping to increase the number of mortgage loans to African Americans by 55% from 1993-1994. Source: Bill Clinton for President 1996 web site.

Also in reading many historical accounts of finances and the state of our nation in the 20's and 30's I came accross Warren Hardings 1921 State of the Union Address. Very inspiring. If you have a chance google it. All of our current politicians need to have it stapled to their foreheads.!!! What a great leader.

Jeff, I still say your father is a great man. I don't like many of the things he did as President, but he is a great man and his heart is in the right place. I just wanted to point out that it is not all the Republicans fault. There is enough blame to go around. You dems have the majority. Stop blaming others because your crooks( all politicians regardless of party) didn't use their power.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:18pm.

You said, "...he made it illegal to ask minorities if they had a job before giving them a mortgage loan."

That's not correct.

I'm still asking, show me the law.


Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:42am.

You are right. There is no law, that says that. It was an exaggeration on my part.

Here is what we have. The Community Reinvestment Act from 1977.

We have Clinton who tweaked it a little to help increase the number of mortgages given to minorities by about 55%. He ordered the HUD secretary to come up with "creative" ways to get around traditional mortgages.

Then he used his billy club Janet Reno to go after any bank who did not allow or practice giving out "ninja" loans. There are many example during the Clinton yrs. where Reno abused the office of the U.S. Attorney General to go after banks who were using sound lending practices.
One is Allbank in New York they were fined 55 million dollars for making good loans and turning down risky loans. They were punished for it. March 20 1998 the U.S. Justice Dept and Janet Reno address the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, and give more examples of this abuse of power. I think the number was 13 or 14 banks that she went after because they had the audacity to follow sound lending practices.

So there may not be a law on the books, but through lawyer double talk they went after many banks to enforce the agenda of the Community Reinvestment Act. They punished banks for using common sense, logic and fiscally smart lending guidelines.

Jeff when your father came up with this act I think his heart was in the right place and it was done with good intent. I can't say the same for Clinton when he changed the wording and started to use it like a sledgehammer.

I'm not the only one who sees the democrats as primarily responsible for this mess. This is why I'm voting Republican for the first time ever.
I remember cheering about this when Clinton was in office. I thought it was a good thing to help people. It ended up hurting the very people it was supposed to help. Those foreclosures will haunt their credit history for years.

Submitted by bowser on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:50am.

Your mind seems pretty made up, but since you like BusinessWeek you ought to also read this piece about the idea that the CRA caused the mess.

http://www.businessweek.com/
investing/insights/blog/archives/
2008/09/community_reinv.html

Among other things it points out that most subprime lenders don't fall under the law's purview, and that most loans made under CRA are actually of higher quality than the high-rate subprimes that wound up getting securitized.

In addition, whatever the Clinton crowd did the Bush admin had reduced CRA enforcement, so its effect was diminishing as the housing bubble built up.

According to this article, better targets for blame are the lack of regulation of credit default swaps and SEC rules (promulgated under Bush) that enabled mortgage brokerages to borrow close to 30 times their capital, encouraging hothouse, volume-driven business models.

Interestingly, there's also a New York Times magazine piece just out that disputes the idea that the 1999 banking dereg bill had very much to do with this either.

http://www.nytimes.com/
2008/09/28/magazine/
28wwln-reconsider.html?ref=magazine

Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:57am.

Thanks for the info. I will keep reading as we all should.

There is enough blame to go around for everyone. I think both parties are at fault not just one. As one other post suggested on here we are all to blame if we have been living way beyond our means.

Keep the good information coming.

The Wedge's picture
Submitted by The Wedge on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 1:49pm.

Is it because our fraction reserve banking system is generating too much phony cash? Do we need to severely tighten up reserves that banks must hold? Maybe that can restore faith and sanity in the system?


Submitted by bowser on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:05am.

Personally, Spy, I think it's all HGTV's fault. Smiling

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:11am.

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Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 8:26am.

I'm so happy that you have made it perfectly clear that only minorities gained from the ease on credit worthiness. How wonderful that no 'white' people are in foreclosure and losing their homes. How fortunate that only 'white' people have kept their jobs when large business closed. How enlightening to learn that only 'white' people feel secure about their pensions and retirement income. Since it was only minorities who caused this crisis - why is the rest of the world/country even concerned? I'm so glad to know that 'whites' had the intelligence not to take advantage of the 'bad' loans that have turned sour. Have any small businessmen been able to get loans recently? What is the chance that they will get loans in the future if banks cannot get money for loans? I hope that our 'leaders' do come up with a plan that protects the taxpayer - the American citizen. This is not a 'racial' issue - it is a global financial issue. The partinsinship in this country will be its' undoing. Let's hope that 'leadership' will prevail - and our leaders will come together to correct this mess.!

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:36am.

You have been away too long. I hope everything is OK.

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Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 1:24pm.

Oh - I'm reading. There have been some 'new' contributors that have very interesting opinions. All is well!! Smiling

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:14am.

I don't think that sky was insinuating that ONLY minorities face foreclosure while ALL white people are sitting pretty. He simply points out that Clinton had good intentions for helping the minorities and that the plan was flawed.

While I realize that even hard working families loose their homes after struggling to save themselves, much of the problem is with deadbeats - the ones who give up because working too hard isn't built into their DNA. This is not a race issue as much as it is an age issue.

I'm in the thirty something demographic and can tell you that (white and black alike) there seems to be a strong sense of entitlement. The younger generation just starting out doesn't want the "starter home" . No, they want the big house, the SUV, the boats, sea doos, and that nice vacation every year. Nothing wrong with dreams but one must work towards them, plan for them, SAVE for them. They don't want to start out small (and within their means) and spend a lifetime working for something. They want what they want and they want it now! After all, we're a fast food under ten minutes or it's freee society.


Submitted by Davids mom on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 1:19pm.

Dawn, you're absolutely correct. Our country has sold its' soul to the 'company store'. We owe everyone - and the average American citizen has joined this dangerous policy. I just heard of a dutiful small businessman in Fayette County who let go two of his employees - and just found out this week that the interest charge on his credit card has gone from 9% to 30%!!! He's not one who tried to live beyond his means - but he's feeling the consequences. No one is trying to live within a 'budget'. Credit cards are being used to hold people over until the next paycheck. . . and the credit card companies are just betting on the one not able to make the 'due' date! GREED!! LIVING BEYOND OUR MEANS! NOT ADHERING TO A BUDGET. Not many people are innocent of these 'sins'. . . .and our country is certainly not a good role model for sound fiscal management. Let's hope that the 'constituents' that encouraged their representatives that this was just a 'bail out' of the 'big guys' will understand the necessity for our Congress to come up with a policy that will stop the downward spiral of the 'little guys'.

dawn69's picture
Submitted by dawn69 on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:28am.

Hey guys, just out of curiosity, does the term 'home equity' even exist anymore. You see...I bought a Hud home, fixed it up, have stayed here almost 10 years, and hoped that one day my equity would be part of my retirement. No more?


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:43am.

It's the amount of your "skin" in the game. But like other commodities your house's value is fluid. So it might or might not help out.
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Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:45am.

I'm not a professional in these matters even though I have stayed at many Holiday Inns. Smiling
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Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:25am.

The info I got came right from Bill Clintons web site 1996 where he was bragging about how he tweaked the CRA and increased the numer of mortgages to African Americans by 55%. His words, not mine.

Yes, many people of all races have been hurt by the subprime lending.

We have turned living beyond our means into an olympic sport in this country. I don't think there will be an easy answer out of this mess. I think it will take several years to turn this around.

Submitted by wheeljc on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 4:57pm.

Oh, Good Sir ... take a gander at this ..

http://www.usnews.com/
poll/extPollResults.php3?pollId=115&optionId=
3&pop=1&expiration=1225252800

(...and thank you Cyclist in advance!!)

Submitted by boxwing on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 4:57pm.

Let's remember here that the bill failed due to nay votes of both Democrats and Republicans. Even our most liberal Democratic Georgia Representatives, John Lewis and David Scott, voted nay along with their Republican colleages. So did the Speaker's speach also offend some democrats?

The more reasonable answer is that people on both sides of the aisle had reservations about such a massive expenditure of taxpayer dollars - if not for the same reasons. So while the political hacks will paint this as a the "fault" of the other side, the true failure lies at the feet of both parties.

The problem started in Congress with the Community Investment Act and the repeal of the Glass-Spegiel Act; both done with "yes" votes by members of both parties. Maybe in addition to the limits on executive compensation in the bailout bill we should also have limits on Senator and Representative compensation and their "golden parachutes"!

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 4:19pm.

Here's Speaker Pelosi's s speech. It sounds to me that she needs to spend some time here at The Citizen.
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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 6:09pm.

I liked Pelosi's speech. Every word was Gospel. That fact is that the R's had a choice between voting for the country and voting for their Party and they choose their narrow political interest. They were offended by Pelosi's speech and therefore crippled that US economy?? Poor pitiful things, got their feelings hurt? Watch the polls, we're gonna kill them with it.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 8:19pm.

Somehow, I had the impression that someone stated that there was enough blame to go around for both parties. I'll try real hard to remember who that was. Smiling
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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:06pm.

I think you are confusing my analysis of the real situation with my analysis of the political situation. I can see how that's confusing. In reality, there is much blame as to how we got into this situation. Politically, its a disaster for the R's.

I've never tried to hide my partisan rhetoric but I have tried to label it. I'll be more careful in the future.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 6:48am.

You are confusing the confused. Smiling
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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:28am.

I only agree with myself about 95% of the time anyway.

Personally I did not like the bill and it was OK with me that it failed (except for that stock market thing... Ouch!). Lots of people saying that the D's had enough votes to pass it if they wanted but this was not a bill that the Dem's crafted so why should they pass it and then be demagogued by the R's over a bill they didn't like anyway?

With McCain, Bush, Cheney and Boehner all lobbying furiously for the bill and it being rejected by 67% of the R's, clearly this is a reflection on the R's leadership and cannot be good for McCain.

As for fixing blame, historically you can pass it out right down the line. Esoteric arguments tracing it to this legislation or that legislation seem meaningless to me at this point. I can cite 15 pieces of legislation, most passed with bipartisan support.

Politically, this is a big win for regulation and oversight which works against the deregulation Party on lots of levels. Lack of oversight can be laid directly at the feet of the Administration which didn't administer the laws. Everything here works against the R's.

What I expect will happen now is that the Dem's will go back and write legislation that can get more widespread Dem. support. Bush will take anything at this point. Its going to be a high risk game for the R's. If they support it they lose their base, if they oppose it they lose main street voters who are very concerned.

We could be seeing a historic fracturing of the Republican Party surpassing or at least equaling the fracturing of the D's after McGovern. They look to be in disarray without convincing leadership, exacerbating the already fierce internal divisions that now exist over the failures of the Bush administration that have led a lot of R's to claim that Bush is not a conservative or that Bush is just a RINO.

We live in interesting times.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:53am.

I always thought the great Dem. schism occurred with George Wallace. Smiling

Anyways, I concede to you that's what will happen. My concern is that this bill will become a "Christmas Tree" with all sorts of gifts under it - mostly left leaning. But that's the political reality we live in.
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Submitted by jokerman on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 7:10pm.

this whole mess was due to the Bush Administrations failed policies. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does anybody REALLY believe this????? It was Congress that was forcing banks to make risky loans when they (the banks) knew better. Not everyone can afford to buy a home, but the government is going to step in and level the playing field. Everyone deserves to live in their own home, after all. Well guess what, those that actually pay taxes will foot this bill.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 4:18pm.

This is the beginning of it:

Frank mocks GOP complaint on bailout


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 5:14pm.

Sharp wit there.

He says, though, that he doesn't buy that story and would never have imputed such pettiness to his GOP colleagues.

But I also watched Pelosi's pre-vote speech and, at the risk of invoking the moral police and losing my job (oh, wait. Too late for that worry, I guess), I have to say, "WHAT THE HELL WAS SHE THINKING?" Why choose THAT moment in time to make her points--valid or not? It's like a divorced and estranged couple trying to set aside differences in order to attend their child's wedding or graduation. Minutes before the service, she turns to him and says, "You were always a selfish, flatulent, beer-swilling pig."

And if it is true that some republicans swung the other way because of her comments, I have to ask, "WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING?"

We just watched Robin Williams in Man of the Hour for the first time in a year or so. He ran on the premise that BOTH parties are full of it. Man, I'm there.

I'm writing in Cynthia McKinney.

____________________

"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 7:16pm.

ABC featured a little animated film explaining the worry over the credit crunch and the way this so-called "bailout" is/was supposed to help.

The link below goes to the main page. You'll see the link for the film to the right.

EVEN I could understand this.

____________________

"Puddleglum" by Weatherwax (one of the Muddlings).

Jeeves to the Rescue


Submitted by Bonkers on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 4:34am.

I watched the money lending cartoon.

Guess I don't agree with the premise as to why it is necessary for us to buy all those bad houses, etc., from crooked banks!

Some banks need to go broke and get out of business--as do some businesses that are too deeply in debt!

It needs to be done quickly and not stretched out over several years with my money thrown down the drain. No one is ever going to buy those foreclosed houses at any kind of decent price so that we can get some of it back.
We will sell them to "biggies," at a 90% DISCOUNT and they will refurbish them and continue to ruin the builders market. Most of them will be destroyed anyway by vandals and lack of maintenance. 10,000 a week are foreclosing!

It is a farce--the loan.
About the same losses will occur whether we make the loan or not! It is just a matter as to who loses them! Banks, Wall Street, or you and I. Or is it me?

Submitted by skyspy on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 5:40pm.

Both parties are full of it, and it seems that the average person has no power to win.

Please no cindy (cop slapping) mckinney. Write in Mickey Mouse, he has manners for starters, and a larger IQ.

I love the painting, very creative good job using it for your avatar.

How is Mrs. Muddle getting on at home? I hope she is better and able to enjoy the beautiful weather we have had here this past week.

Submitted by Arf on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 3:00pm.

I agree. The problem is that the “financial crisis” that Washington spent the weekend hassling over is much, much bigger than anyone is admitting. They’re $700 billion “bail out” is only a band aid that might further distort or hide some problems, but will create others that might even be more debilitating.

This country is in a mess because so much already hinges on nothing but fluff, and there is no way to call it back. This isn’t only about mortgages going bad, it is about widespread money invested in assets that are quickly losing value. The house of cards is falling no matter what happens. Washington has just begun to realize the widespread ramification of the billions of dollars invested by individuals, companies and retirement funds in mortgage-backed securities that are rapidly going south. Their last minute attempt to save this situation is too little, too late because the huge boulder of economic impact is already rolling quickly down the hill.

Our politicians are desperately trying to save face at the top where the government has allowed investment houses to sell this bill of goods called mortgage-backed securities to the world at large. The government also supported this secondary market for mortgages by encouraging loose qualifications for mortgage loans. No matter what is done, it’s too late to stop the dominoes already in motion that will affect every individual in this land.

rzz's picture
Submitted by rzz on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 4:11pm.

What percentage of the Republicans voted for W's proposal. Surely it must have been almost 100%. Right?


Submitted by winer on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:34am.

Last weekend I watched Pelosi refer to the plan that came from Paulson & W as a 2 and a half page plan that asked for the 700B.

Dear Congress, Give me 700 Billion, Love Hank- that was how she described it.

The Bail Out Plan defeated on Monday was well over 100 pages. That plan morphed over the week long battle. Stuff in, stuff out, 20% profit money for ACORN, no never mind, no money for ACORN. I found it difficult to follow exactly what was in there and where it came from. The Paulson/W plan probably did stink, but it isn't exactly accurate to say it was that plan that was defeated.

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:39am.

Yeah, what's up with giving money to ACORN? That didn't feel right to me either...

-------
"You can lead a Republican to the truth, but you can't make him think."


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:44am.

turn on yer t.v.

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"You can lead a Republican to the truth, but you can't make him think."


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