What do you think of Sen. John McCain's pick of Gov. Sarah Palin as his VP?

Mon, 09/01/2008 - 8:58am
By: The Citizen



login to post comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Submitted by link7881 on Mon, 12/08/2008 - 2:22pm.

Well, during the nine weeks of training, the soldier received training in drill and ceremonies, weapons, Army history, core values and traditions. Additional training included development of basic combat skills and battlefield operations and tactics, and experiencing use of various weapons and weapons defenses.

Kona tours

Submitted by bowser on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 9:34am.

Nice speech.

And in today's news, turns out Todd Palin, potential second man and champeen snowmobiler, was a member from 1995 to 2002 of a political organization whose founder loudly proclaimed his contempt for America.

"I've got no use for America or her damned institutions," said Alaska Independence Party founder Joe Vogler. "[T]he fires of Hell are glaciers compared to my hate for the American government." He said he'd refuse to be buried under the American flag. The AIP's chief cause: secession from the United States.

Well, at least Vogler stopped short -- barely -- of "GD America."

Todd Palin got a case of AIP fever after attending a convention with the missus, reports say. He was never an activist, but the founder's views didn't bother him enough to think twice about his seven-year membership.

Sarah Palin apparently was never a member but as a candidate for governor addressed an AIP convention and congratulated the delegates on their "good work." "God bless you," she concluded. This was in 2006.

Do I think any of this is particularly relevent? No. Worth knowing, perhaps, but not a game-changer by any stretch. What I think is relevant is the hypocrisy of the rightwing talkers who writhe in feigned agony over the treasonous Rev. Wright and then will twist and spin to explain why the Palins owe us no explanations whatsoever as to their personal affiliations and any questions about them are a media smear.

Submitted by 30YearResident on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 6:58am.

This claim was investigated in more depth by the left and found to be not true... You shouldn't put damaging claims like this on public bulletin boards without vetting them first. It's very simple to research.

Submitted by bowser on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 9:01am.

You're right, it is simple to research. Here is the New York Times article from Wednesday that sorted out which Palin was a member and which wasn't, following some initial misinformation on the topic -- which as you'll see was supplied by the AIP itself. And you can easily find the quotes attributed to Vogler, which are not disputed.

Anyway, whether or not the Palins dabbled in experimental political philosophies was not really my point...

NEW YORK TIMES, Sept. 3

In the mid-1990s, the Alaskan Independence Party was experiencing a boom of sorts. A governor had been elected on its ticket in 1990, when the party was not even a decade old. And membership was swelling.

Among the new recruits was Todd Palin, whose wife, Sarah, would later become governor of Alaska. The Palins attended the party’s convention in their hometown, Wasilla, in 1994, according to party officials, where the party called for a revote on statehood and a draft constitution for an independent Republic of Alaska. Mr. Palin joined the party.

Ms. Palin remained a Republican and never joined the Alaskan Independence Party, but returned to its convention in 2006 to speak as candidate for governor. After she had been elected, she recorded a video greeting that was played at the party convention this year. “Good luck on a successful and inspiring convention,” she said. “Keep up the good work, and God bless you.”

Now that she is the Republican nominee for vice president — for a campaign whose motto is “Country first” — the couple’s interaction with the Alaskan Independence Party has gotten attention because of its reputation as a secessionist group.

Alaskan Independence Party officials released a statement Monday saying that Ms. Palin had been a member for two years, from 1994 to 1996, information included in reports in The New York Times and other news outlets. In Internet videos of recent party meetings, other party officials can be seen boasting of Ms. Palin’s past membership.

On Tuesday, though, the party’s chairwoman, Lynette Clark, said the earlier statement was false. Ms. Clark said that she had based it on information another party member had given her, but that a review of the records showed only that Ms. Palin had attended the 1994 conference.

Ms. Clark added that while the review confirmed Todd Palin as a member, it did not indicate that Ms. Palin had been one.

On Wednesday, Ms. Clark released a corrected statement, saying, in part, “I, foolishly, repeated and accepted as fact what an officer of this membership shared with myself, and husband Dexter Clark, over a year ago.”

“I humbly apologize to Governor Palin, and to both national and local press and media,” she added.

Ms. Palin has been registered as a Republican since May 1982, according to the State Division of Elections. Mr. Palin registered as a member of the Alaskan Independence Party in 1995, remaining a member for all but two months of the next seven years, until he registered as an undeclared voter in July 2002.

The McCain campaign has described the Palins as “proud Americans” and called reports of her membership in the independence party “a smear.”

The Alaskan Independence Party’s Web site, akip.org, which includes the motto “Alaska First — Alaska Always” in its banner, describes party members as seeking “a range of solutions to the conflicts between federal and local authority,” including “advocacy for state’s rights, through a return to territorial status, all the way to complete independence and nationhood status for Alaska.” It calls for repatriation of lands held by the federal government “to the state and people of Alaska,” as well as, among other issues, the right to home-school children and the privatization of government services.

Ms. Clark objected to descriptions of her party as secessionist, saying it advocates “states’ rights” and “state sovereignty.”

Ms. Clark said she interpreted Ms. Palin’s attendance at the 1994 convention as reflecting an interest in hearing a variety of perspectives. “Her heart is very Alaskan,” she said, “and we have Alaskan issues.”

Jean Craciun, a political consultant in Alaska, said it would not be hard to believe that Ms. Palin had been a member of the independence party, because polls show that people in Alaska often confuse the party with “independent minded.”

Ms. Palin’s political philosophy is also often compared to that of Walter J. Hickel, the former Alaska governor and interior secretary in the Nixon administration who was re-elected governor on the Alaskan Independence Party ticket in 1990. Mr. Hickel, a big backer of Ms. Palin, re-registered as a Republican in 1994.

In her recorded address to the party’s convention this year, Ms. Palin said: “I share your party’s vision of upholding the constitution of our great state. My administration remains focused on reining in government growth so individual liberty and opportunity can expand. I know you agree with that.”

Submitted by AlarminglyCorrect on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 12:21pm.

Alaskans have always been an independant group of folks. At least they say they want to be an independant country. Well then, put it to a vote. At least they back up their words by wanting out. Jerry Wright should seek to susceed Chicago from the Union. Then he would have more credibility. He hates America, wants to take over, promote his anti-American values and turn the good ol' USA into a septic tank like most of Africa. We could put Chicago suscession to a vote , too. yuck yuck yuck.

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 1:05pm.

"At least they (AIP) back up their words by wanting out...We could put Chicago suscession to a vote "

Gosh AC... what planet did you arrive from?

Snowmobiles and mooseburgers for all!


MainframeComputerGuy's picture
Submitted by MainframeComputerGuy on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 10:00pm.

Be afwaid Dims, be vewy, vewy afwaid . . . McShame found a silver bullet, and the empty-suited tax and spend Beltway/Chicago hacks are in vewy, vewy big twouble now. Haaaahahhahahahahaahahaha!!!!!


Submitted by MYTMITE on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 10:55pm.

actually had something to say. This lady can talk and I believe she can walk the walk. She is a proven factor--not all talk and no action. I believe we may have a winner--not only for the Republican party but for the country. I don't think this lady can be pushed around. And for those who found Hillary too strident--she isn't. She has a sense of humor, speaks well, makes a great appearance and has a resume to back her. Sounds like a winner to me. Sad to say, looks no no hope for Hillary in four years either. Unless something drastic happens. Let's hope she is as good for the country as she seems to be.

Personal note: Loved it when the cameras panned to the youngest daughter holding the baby and she put spit on her hand and patted his hair down. She was unaware the cameras was on her and it was a nice moment. How many of us haven't done the same thing? Of course there will be those who will say this was unsanitary and a 'redneck' thing to do!

Tug13's picture
Submitted by Tug13 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 11:58am.

Great speech!! I agree with you MYTMITE, her daughter Piper holding her little brother, combing his hair with her spit, priceless!! Smiling


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 9:05am.

That's one cute kid. (Photos in the Hufflepuff Post)

Is it too early for me to try to set her up with one of my grandsons? They're seven, she's six.

___________________

Jeeves to the Rescue


Submitted by Nitpickers on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 6:29pm.

That name will go far, me thinks.

Peter Piper was made famous with his name. He picked a peck of pickled peppers out of the Pueder Plyder!

Names mean a lot. Just ask ludicrous, sting, jessee, any woman with lip-stick on, or sarah!

However, sonny muddle and piper palin aren't likely to make it, ever!

Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 6:17pm.

But that doesn't make her mama qualified!

Submitted by Bonkers on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 9:02am.

I'm afraid the spitting on the fingers and fixing hair is an Eskimo Indian, or Puerto Rican thing! They can't help it!
I didn't hear any solutions for forclosures, banks, unemployment (in Alaska everyone is), inflation, future wars (except be strong), debt of the country, debt of individuals, trade, manufacturing, or church.

I don't know what you mean by "pushed around," I think that is why the meo-cons want her!
But you are correct about her being just like you, unqualified!
John will have to-relegate her to the VPs home in the observatory!

Submitted by MYTMITE on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 4:24pm.

You cannot post without saying something racist. Evidently your mother dropped you on your head, or if you were as annoying then as you are now she probably shook your brains into an omlette.

I would bet you that 90% of the mothers of little boys regardless of nationality, race, ethnic background, etc., have on at least one occasion done exactly that as well as wiping her spit on her handkerchief or Kleenex to wipe a dirty spot off a child's face.

Are you Aryan, one of the so called 'perfect race'? You sure sound like it. Or are you one of the true Americans--an American Indian?
If not, then you like everyone else came here from somewhere else. If you haven't noticed, Hawaii is a state and Hawaiians are Americans like the rest of us. Like every state in this union, Hawaii has many different people, not just Eskimos. Maybe you should spend the time you spend here spewing your hateful comments learning a little history and consideration for others. You are not perfect--you aren't even normal, so stop knocking others. After all, there was only one perfect person and they persecuted him.

TonyF's picture
Submitted by TonyF on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 5:38am.

Dude, I don't care who you are, that's just too darn funny!!

"Your, yore, you're all idiots." (T.Floyd)


Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 6:04am.

According to statistics compiled by the government there are zero Eskimos in Hawaii!

I would suspect that there could be a couple retired there but claim to be something else!

There is one mountain in Hawaii that has some snow on it due to it's elevation. Possibly there could be an igloo or two there on the North side!

However there are no Moose to hunt from helicopters as does the Governor of Alaska. Ice Hockey is scarce in Hawaii.

You are correct though about many ethnicities there: Polynesians, Filipinoes, Chinese make up about half. The other half are from maybe 20 countries and races.

Just can't seem to find the Eskimoes!

They are as scarce as Hawaiians in Messufloonam, (or whatevr) Alaska.

Submitted by Bonkers on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 6:04am.

According to statistics compiled by the government there are zero Eskimos in Hawaii!

I would suspect that there could be a couple retired there but claim to be something else!

There is one mountain in Hawaii that has some snow on it due to it's elevation. Possibly there could be an igloo or two there on the North side!

However there are no Moose to hunt from helicopters as does the Governor of Alaska. Ice Hockey is scarce in Hawaii.

You are correct though about many ethnicities there: Polynesians, Filipinoes, Chinese make up about half. The other half are from maybe 20 countries and races.

Just can't seem to find the Eskimoes!

They are as scarce as Hawaiians in Messufloonam, (or whatevr) Alaska.

TonyF's picture
Submitted by TonyF on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 6:26am.

posts it twice. Dude, don't double-click the "post comment" tab. Einswine.

"Your, yore, you're all idiots." (T.Floyd)


Submitted by Nitpickers on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 6:05pm.

Bonkers didn't say anything racist! Some actions are done primarily by certain races! Their heritage also can contribute to some unusual things when compared to the majority.

I know a great deal about various races. There are some different ones in my family. We joke about certain unusual occurences all of the time. Like I never knew anyone in my family who spit on their kids for any reason. Seems to me that is so the parent isn't embarrased--not the kid.

We have Puerto Rican friends who "clean" their baby's pacifier by sucking on it! We kid them no-end about that! It is automatic for them--all they have seen in many cases.

I'm certainly not of a perfect race! none exists.

I don't know how many Eskimo Indians are in Hawaii, but I think that group of Indians in Hawaii came from Polynesia and the Eskimos from Mongolia or nearby! Same as our American Indians.

My history may be somewhat better than your hear-say!

Submitted by AlarminglyCorrect on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 4:32pm.

you've got to love the lefty lib's. Freespeech is not allowed unless you say something a lib has vetted. Get over your lack of debating skills, get an education, and stop crying Racism at everything you don't like. You whiney little bed-wetter.

Submitted by MYTMITE on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 5:15pm.

The Alarmingly part of your name may be apropros but the jury is out on the correct part.

Didn't realize I was in a debate. If you are not yet another of Bonkers identities (and you do sound very much like one) and you have read his previoius postings you know that he is constantly making disparaging remarks about people in all walks of life. Since you refer to me as a bed wetter this must also be your modus operandi.

I find your reference to education amusing as one of the greatest indications of lack of education is name calling. I am sure you noticed that all but one of the posters responding to Bonkers' post found his statements offensive. Are we all your so-called libs or people with more respect for others? Oh, before you jump on the fact that I made disparaging remarks about Bonkers: I did so because he deserved them for his constant mean-spirited blogs about others' nationalities, etc. Now, if you will excuse me I have to go change my Pampers.

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 9:43am.

"I'm afraid the spitting on the fingers and fixing hair is an Eskimo Indian, or Puerto Rican thing! They can't help it!" LOL, Bonkers.Smiling

Her speech, all smear, and no substance, taken right out of the Rove/Repub playbook. It sounded negative and petty, really, but it sure did excite the base and the RNC crowd loved it. But was it enough to sway independents and women? Highly doubtful.

I've read so many comments on various blogs this morning, my eyes are crossing now, but here's one from a 'community organizer' (and they really DO exist), who was highly offended. So, since when did working for the betterment of ones community become such a BAD thing? (I guess since smearing social work and community activism became a Repub campaign talking point):

"Palin insulted me tonight by putting down my life's work. I am a social worker and community organizer. There is no reason for the putdown. But I guess Ishe also put down the work of other community organizers such as Jane Addams, Martin Luther King Jr, Mother Theresa and yes Jesus Christ. But that's ok, because she just motivated me to go out tomorrow to register new voters to help make FL a blue state. WRONG group to insult, because we are all about organizing and taking action!"

(I thought the theme of the 2008 RNC was "service" and "Country First"... that's actually what social workers and community organizers do - go figure)


sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 3:14pm.

Mainstream, the best one line synopsis of the predictable Republican't response to Palin's speech that I've heard:

"The political equivalent of a fake orgasm".

No kidding!

Those predisposed toward liking Palin most likely had their gushing commentary written before she ever gave her speech. Those who don't care for her brand of extremism remain unconvinced.

Like you said earlier, the greatest indication of the rank hypocrisy of the Republican't elite was Reagan's gifted speechwriter (and WSJ harpie) Peggy Noonan. Yesterday morning she wrote a column filled with hosannas for Gov. Palin....but at lunch her "open mike" revealed how ridiculous she thought picking Palin was.


Submitted by AlarminglyCorrect on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 3:58pm.

The best one line synopsis of Obama was stated by Bill Clinton.......Obama's is a typical Chicago thug. Only thing I think we agree on with Prez Squirt.

hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 10:36am.

One of the comments I've heard or read belittled Palin because she didn't write her speech herself, so using Denise's mom's reasoning, the community organizer shouldn't be mad at Palin because Palin didn't write it.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 10:48am.

It was VERY apparant last night that Palin's words weren't her own. I'm surprised that with all the resources the Republicans have access to, that they didn't give her a more "personalized" speech.

I thought the speech sounded like it was written by committee, it had an odd cadence to it: "line, line, SOUNDBYTE! line, line, line, SOUNDBYTE!" Give her credit though, Palin could be an excellent presenter. She lost major Debate 101 points with her constant finger-pointing, and the eyerolls were amateurish.

I noticed that the Fox focus groups they interviewed later that evening (all women) gave their biggest disapproval to the finger jabs.

In any event, I think the battle lines are now drawn. McCain and Palin served notice last night that they are abandoning all hope of going after the elusive "undecided" voter and will instead focus on turning out the hard core social conservative vote. Risky tactics. We'll see if it works.


Submitted by AlarminglyCorrect on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 12:10pm.

Sniffles is a perfect name for a whiney little liberal. None of these pols write their own stuff. Biden is a well known plagerizer. But, maybe that qualifies him as his own speech writer. Yea, right. You may only get your info from one source, but there are other facts to consider about last night's stellar performance by Palin. The teleprompter screwed up and she still pulled off the speech flawlessly. Take the teleprompter away from Obama and he is reduced to a stuttering, fumbling idiot. Which is what the real Obama is. You can be a Harvard grad and still be a stumbling, fumbling, mumbling idiot. That is what you get from affirmitive action, Harvard or not. At least Palin came out as the person she really is. You cannot say that about Michele Obama. Does anyone know who performed Michele's transformation to June Clever. Talk about somebody who cannot be who they really are. At least not in public anymore. Whew!

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 12:50pm.

Does this refer to the 'pledge' issue, again?

(this is a tough crowd here AC... better use your spell check)


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 12:52pm.

I yam what I yam....Popeye


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 10:39am.

"Palin didn't write it.

Puppets.

ALL of them.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 10:17am.

The GOP probably doesn't have much to worry about if Palin insulted social workers.

As a group, they tend already to be to the far left, and already view their mission as that of organizing on behalf of leftist ideologies.

This is no accident. If you examine the stated goals of most social work programs in American universities (as I did as a part of the research required for an article) you'll find that they are unabashedly leftist in their aims.

Here's an excerpt from something of my own:

Social Work programs around the country are almost universally premised upon the principles of this new orthodoxy. The program at St. Cloud State University is not atypical. Consider its stance on “homophobia.”

"Because homophobia is so deeply embedded in our culture it is likely that many social work students, as many other people in society, will have preconceived negative stereotypes about gay males and lesbians….The Department's intent is to introduce knowledge and values that will challenge and help to combat these attitudes and stereotypes. Students' openness to learning is essential because those who hold negative attitudes and stereotypes about diverse populations can do serious harm to clients in their future social work practice. To prevent this, students must be open to examining their prejudices including their homophobia."

The language is interesting. Clearly, since the department thinks that the harboring of negative attitudes towards homosexuals “can do serious harm,” and, since they undoubtedly do not wish to foster mayhem and mischief, their insistence that students “examine” their prejudices is an understatement. Here, “examine” does not refer to that Socratic exercise that may possibly vindicate currently held beliefs. Rather, it is a euphemism for “root out and eliminate.” Note, also, that the language is vague. Does the belief that homosexuality is immoral, a belief held by not a few people within our society, qualify as such an unacceptable “prejudice” or “strereotype” to be combated?

St. Cloud’s bachelor’s program in Social Work is accredited by the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and here is the rub. Accreditation through CSWE is contingent upon adherence to its requirement that graduates of all accredited programs demonstrate a commitment to “social and economic justice.” FIRE has argued recently that such language is vague, politically loaded, and virtually mandates that potential graduates be evaluated for their political views—as St. Cloud State’s department almost unabashedly advocates with regard to the issue of “homophobia.”

___________________

Jeeves to the Rescue


Fyt35's picture
Submitted by Fyt35 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 9:29am.

"I'm afraid the spitting on the fingers and fixing hair is an Eskimo Indian, or Puerto Rican thing! They can't help it!"

You are one insensitive fool, but coming from you the above statement is not a surprise. How do you fix your hair by wiping your hand on you @$$?


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 8:43am.

She was great. The family looked great. Some of the speech distorted Obama's position (he has no energy plan, etc.) but that's just politics and the Obama people should expect it and be prepared to counter it. For her first national appearance, she was spectacular.


Fyt35's picture
Submitted by Fyt35 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 7:44am.

I agree MYTMITE; she hit a homerun last night. The best the Obama handlers could do was “well, the Bush guy wrote her speech". How pathetic, coming from The Golden Child staff, who can’t talk unless he is in front of a teleprompter.

I’m ready to see her debate Joe Biden; I don’t think he slept last night just wondering he will be able to avoid being embarrassed by this pit bull. She put it best:

“I’m not a member of the permanent political establishment. And I’ve learned quickly, these last few days, that if you’re not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone, but here’s a little news flash for those reporters and commentators: I’m not going to Washington to seek their good opinion; I’m going to Washington to serve the people of this country.”

Amen sister!


Submitted by skyspy on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 7:26am.

Sarah Palin is a breath of fresh air that our country needs. Great speech. She is a real person I think many of us can relate to.

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 4:27am.

Sarah Palin steps out of the Alaskan "wilderness" onto the national stage at the Republican convention, delivers one speech, and lands a knockout blow to the opponent. The allure that this scenario has is obvious: it gives those feelings that we all have of looking into the mirror in the morning and seeing a hidden, unappreciated talent the validation that we crave.

Then the alarm clock of reality goes off. When someone advises you to wake up, it means that you have been sleeping.

"I can't wait until tomorrow, because I get more lovable every day."


Submitted by USArmybrat on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 5:57pm.

Then I woke up this morning and found out it was true!! Gov. Palin is for REAL!

Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 7:26pm.

And woke up and it was true! John McCain really has sold his soul to the religious right!

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 7:43pm.

Rove and the neocons stole McCain's brain, and we want it back!


Submitted by USArmybrat on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 5:37am.

Woke up to see McCain has tied it with the Obamanation. The "bounce" has bounced away!

Submitted by bowser on Fri, 09/05/2008 - 5:56am.

Cindy Lou's makeup&hair squad deserves bonus pay for the way they trussed her up last night. But she better be careful -- she's looking more and more like McCain's granddaughter every time out.

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Thu, 09/04/2008 - 7:21pm.

Gov. Palin is for real, it is VP Palin that is the stuff of dreams: good ones for Republicans, bad ones for everyone else.

I truly feel empathy for her and John McCain, because it is getting painful to watch the exploitation of these two Americans at the hands of the lunatic fringe of the Republican movement.

"I can't wait until tomorrow, because I get more lovable every day."


mudcat's picture
Submitted by mudcat on Tue, 09/02/2008 - 7:24pm.

Best political move in years. Last one this big that I can recall is Kennedy bringing Johnson onto the team - mainly to muzzle the big dog (keep your enemies closer, etc.). Obama should have read that book and named Hillary - then they would be winning - but his judgement is not the best.

Kennedy won, by the way. That's the name of the game.


Evil Elvis's picture
Submitted by Evil Elvis on Tue, 09/02/2008 - 7:55pm.

Now you don't have to choose Obama to vote for an "historic campaign", should that be your cup of tea. He solidified the base and intrigued the opposition in one fell swoop. Well done, old man.

The angry bloggers and CNN reporters weren't voting McCain anyway.


mudcat's picture
Submitted by mudcat on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 7:06pm.

Historic is now the venue owned by women and Sarah. Great choice - game over. She and the old guy win big time. Thank God.


Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.