FreeSpeech for 8-20-08

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 3:08pm
By: The Citizen

So, Peachtree City officials are studying having one company for trash pick-up. Judging from the article, one requirement of the successful vendor will be city fee and tariff collector. By the looks of it, the city has already made out its wish list of fees and silly requirements of its citizens, which smells a bit like socialism. If this goes through, as they are planning, your trash bill will be six pages long once all their sneaky fees are added, and you’ll be left with no freedom of choice at all.

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I can’t believe I have to say this again so soon. Enough already! I do not want to have a trash service forced down my throat. I pay $12 a month and receive great service. If I have a problem, I call and have the situation rectified. Mr. McMullen, you’re fired. Any member of council who votes for this without an opt-out clause needs to be replaced. If you can’t find a way to cut costs, here are some suggestions. Take the amphitheater, Tennis Center and pools and sell them to a private entity. That cuts M&O costs and salary and benefits to zero. Then, you have the tax money that is generated from property taxes on that property. Then, hire a city manager that will do his job. This would save us money by not having an assistant city manager. Also, no more annexing, multi-family projects, arts centers or any other proposal that costs us more money. Let private enterprise bring these facilities into the city and those who wish to support it can pay to do so. Those of us that do not can put our money where we want it. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. It’s my money. Or so I thought.

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Peachtree City is once again trying to tell the taxpayers who will be picking up your trash and how much you will be paying for this service. Also they are trying to mandate that you will be paying someone to pick up your recyclable trash that they will turn around and recycle those products and in actuality be paid twice. I have been recycling for years. It’s not very hard: Rinse out your aluminum cans and smash them and store them until you have a couple of bins full, around a hundred pounds. Based on what the price for aluminum is on the day that you redeem them, you could be getting on average 50 dollars per 100 pounds of cans. Not bad for a little work. So are you willing to pay someone to recycle for you? Also, here is the mayor and the city manager pushing so hard to drive out two of the three trash haulers using the guise of “so many trash trucks on the city roads.” I know it’s hard for either of you two brainiacs to see that the same amount of trash will have to be picked up around the city by only one company, so that computes into using more trucks and more hours by one company. But the biggest problem is the elimination of competition. Now, if you have a problem with your service, you get immediate customer service, or you can choose to change your service provider. The mayor and city manager are trying to put the taxpayers into the “trick bag,” much like the way they operate the city, without competition. Too bad we have to wait to change their disservice to the city, but I am sure we will.

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You folks at The Citizen must be nuts! Why do you allow these rambling, multi-page-spanning missives in your Letters, Faxes, E-mail section? If someone can’t make their point in 200 words or less, they are just wasting their time and everyone else’s. My eyes start to glaze over after six or seven paragraphs; I don’t think I’ve ever actually finished any letter on the Letters page longer than that. I can only presume the writers are either local political wannabes or ex-local political hacks whining about how things would be run if only they were back in charge.

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In this month’s city newsletter, the mayor complains about citizens complaining. Mr. Mayor, you are correct. There are lots of things that are way better about our town than others. One example is our golf cart paths; another is our Fourth of July activities. There are also many more reasons why I love our town. However, you cannot take credit for things done before your time. My point is, I do not think you have done anything positive for this town. Since you have been in office I have seen a major downturn in our city. First, crime is up. Second, we have a huge surplus of commercial real estate. We have two new subdivisions where houses are not selling (bottom line, we are way over built). Our schools are no longer ranked amongst the best in the country. So basically, my question to you is: What have you done to make our city better?

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Mr. Mayor, the reason you only hear negative comments about our town is because you are doing a horrible job. Please stop whining and step down. You are killing our town.

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I never thought I would see the day when I would say that Coweta County and the city of Newnan’s officials are way out ahead of Peachtree City’s. But after reading in The Citizen that Newnan was offering Atlanta Christian College a proposal to ”redevelop existing buildings” for the college, I thought, ”what a concept.” PTC would rather give away 30 acres of prime property that would be tax producing in the future, instead of what probably be tax exempt to the school. Mr. Mayor, why would the college be willing to relocate to 30 acres to expand when they are now on a site with over 45 acres? Does anyone in the city government ever give the whole story? Mr. Mayor, drive up and down Huddleston Road and, if you had any smarts at all, you and your inept city planners could pick out dozens of vacant buildings that could be converted into college space and ease the tax burden off of the people who have elected you. Once again, good work, city of Newnan, on the concept of redeveloping.

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Would like to see the cart path by Peachtree City Elementary resurfaced. The city stopped on Riley Road at Pinegate. Parents taking their children to school on golf carts and students riding bikes have a rough time with all of the holes and bumps. It would have been nice to have this done before school started back. This includes the path that runs along Wisdom Road. This is for the safety of our kids. Can the city look at this area and fix? There is also an area in front of Booth that needs to be resurfaced.

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“You can’t get there from here.” That is, if you are a pedestrian, or golf cart driver. Should your present location be The Avenue, and you wish to venture over to Westpark, or vice-versa, eight lanes of traffic are in your way. If you are walking, and are lucky enough to cross eight lanes of traffic with no broken bones, you would then ask yourself, “Where are the sidewalks?” ( I would prefer the intersection of Ga. highways 85/138 in Riverdale, as for a safe crossing). Should you be in a golf cart, at Westpark, your first crossing option is east, one mile, to the cart bridge over Ga. Highway 54, take Hippocket south one mile to the Kelly Drive tunnel beneath Ga. Highway 74, then west a quarter mile to Dividend Drive, then north, one-half mile, to Huddleston Road; continue north one-half mile to Hwy. 54, through the tunnel beneath Hwy. 54, then east across the CSX cart-pedestrian bridge (if it is ever opened). Then south through the tunnel beneath Hwy. 54, and you will have finally arrived at The Avenue. And you have forgotten why you wanted to come here. Now it’s time for your return trip to Westpark, where your friends await you for lunch. Let’s try our second option: Go north back through the tunnel beneath Hwy. 54, cross over the CSX cart bridge, swing west past BestBuy to Home Depot, then Wal-Mart, then back behind Wal-Mart, ask directions to the cart bridge over CSX/Hwy. 74, (about one mile), east over the bridge for one-fifth mile, then south a half mile to Commerce Drive; continue south a half mile to Westpark ... Your friends gave up and went to McDonald’s ... in their Hummer. The CSX cart bridge has been resting there for over 18 months; the mayor says, “Staff is still working with, and dealing with, national corporations to obtain the necessary rights-of-way, and easements” to get the bridge open.” Excuse me: Easements? Is some property owner holding onto a piece of property the size of my driveway, with a 45-degree angle downward, holding onto that property to build a restaurant? (Come on, you greedy person; donate it to the city! It was stolen from the Indians, anyway, by your ancestors.) Bush gets almost overnight permission from Congress to bomb a country that never bothered us, kills over 4,000 of our finest young people, yet PTC can’t open a cart bridge. One more “You can’t get there,” and I will close. You are at Braelinn Shopping Center, and you wish to cross over Crosstown Road in your golf cart. It’s only about 100 feet to get to Pizza Hut. You know that the law states that you can’t cross there in a golf cart. If you were a pedestrian, bike rider or motorcycle rider, you have permission to cross over Crosstown Road. But let’s explore your choices to arrive at Pizza Hut: Your first tunnel is behind Braelinn Shopping Center, with a total distance of about one-half mile to Pizza Hut. Your second option would be to take the cart path behind Kauffman Tire,then past the tunnel beneath Peachtree Parkway, then to the second tunnel beneath Crosstown Road. Then a scenic drive to get to Pizza Hut, for a driving distance of one mile. Conclusion: We need a traffic light on Crosstown Road to allow cart drivers safe crossing from Braelinn Shopping Center to Crosstown Court. And we need another cart bridge over Hwy. 74, just north of the 54/74 intersection. If these cart crossings were needed for golfers to/from a golf course, I’ll bet PTC would do it in a hurry.

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Friday night in our golf cart, my husband and I were stopped by the Fayette County Sheriff’s Department for running a stop sign in Timberlake. They told us the Timberlake path and dam was private property and we would be trespassing if we entered their property and could have our golf cart impounded. I have to admit, living in Highgrove I didn’t know it was illegal to use their cart path and they had paid for it with their own money. We talked to the deputies for a couple of minutes and asked why they were stopping people now. They told us the sheriff has been swamped with complaints about underage drivers, littering, trespassing, and drinking in the Timberlake area. They gave us a warning and said the next time they were going to issue tickets and impound golf carts of violators. We have since learned from a Timberlake friend that the Timberlake board kindly offered to allow us in Highgrove the right to use their path if we would help pay to maintain the path for only $10 each. She told me 230 people outside of Timberlake use the path compared to 100 in Timberlake. That seemed very fair that we help maintain the path we use to get to PTC. I spend more then that on coffee in one week. She also told me Timberlake offered to work with the county to build a bypass cart path around their subdivision so we wouldn’t have to go through their neighborhood. I was surprised to learn that our board turned that down and advised the Timberlake board they needed to call the sheriff to stop us from using their golf cart path. Highgrove and Timberlake boards, please get this problem fixed. I enjoy driving my golf cart to PTC and it saves me a lot of gas. How are we suppose to drive to the 4th of July parade or The Fred? When we bought our house in Highgrove, the Realtor told us we were connected to the PTC path system. I didn’t know then that we would be required to trespass to get to PTC on our golf cart.

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Why do the parking lot and grounds of the Peachtree City Post Office have to look as if they belong in a third-world country? Neglected and almost-dead plants, foot-high weeds in the islands and along the side of the building, no mulch in the islands, a healthy crop of weeds growing in the cracks between the paving and curb right at the front door. It’s a disgrace.

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I plan to wholeheartedly support the SPLOST to help Fayette County students. However, if the FCBOE plans to use this money to provide a pool which benefits SCAT, I will vote against it and encourage everyone I know to do so as well. SCAT, if you want the support of the community, stop tying to be so elite and exclusive. SCAT needs to find a balance between its current attitude and that of the good old days when it encouraged a love of swimming for all kids.

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Do we residents of Peachtree City realize what is going on right under our noses? Just this past weekend I went out with my husband and a friend of his from out of town. We decided to head over to the Red Room right in the heart of PTC to have a little “night club experience” without having to go to downtown Atlanta. Well, I got a little more than I bargained for. I noticed a couple of the young girls from the reunion (they had their name tags on from the class of 2003) hanging all over a couple of much older guys (I would never make the mistake of calling either of them ladies or gentlemen), and when I say hanging all over, I mean they needed a room. The guys kept buying the shots and the girls kept drinking them and kissing on the guys (and each other). One of the girls was obviously telling the guy what she wanted to do to him. He dragged her behind a wall behind the bar. Based on the reaction of the three or four guys lined up in the corner watching and laughing, she was obviously performing some type of sex act. Then the word spread to the bartenders behind the bar, but no one seemed to really mind. After their little sexual escapade in the back hall, they came back and the girl basically passed out on him. I will tell you that I watched the USA women’s swim team win the silver and the men’s swim team win the gold while this disgusting display was happening. My husband and I were approached by one of the bartenders and informed that we might be interested in something new they will be doing at the Red Room on Sunday nights: Adult games night, and the prizes will be supplied by Starship Enterprise (an adult toy party company.) What do you think will be happening?? Is this really the kind of image we want for our town? Is this the type of place we want our children to patronize?

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Fayette Countians it’s time to wake up and see the movement. Nine years ago a good friend of mine was running for public office in Clayton County. I remember attending many of his pre-campaign meetings with the other candidates running for all kinds of offices in both Riverdale and Clayton County. As I attended those meetings, I was blown away by what I saw and what I heard: T-shirts that said and voices that said, “We took Riverdale and Clayton County, Fayetteville and Fayette County are next.” I saw it and heard it with my own eyes. We’ve all seen the great job they’ve done in Clayton County in ALL areas (sarcasm here). We DO NOT need the same mentality and destruction here in our great county. We don’t need district voting, we don’t need a transit system and we don’t need another Riverdale, Clayton County fiasco.

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There is no doubt that the walking trail in the new North Fayette Kenwood Park is a real treasure. But it is marred by one sight. Next to the basketball courts is a small drainage area full of 30 or 40 plastic bottles that have been there forever. So why then does the weekly maintenance crew choose to ignore them week after week? A better question is why has the maintenance foreman not taken action? Does he ever get out of his truck? Guess not.

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Well, school has started back, and now we all have to deal with lazy parents teaching their kids to be lazy like them. I live in the Marks neighborhood, which, at its farthest point, is less than a mile away from Braelinn Elementary. But lo and behold, parents in the neighborhood think they need to DRIVE their children to school. Do these kids not have two legs that they can put one in front of the other and walk to Braelinn? I did it when I was that age. And what makes matters even worse are the parents who drive their kids to the bus stop. Are you kidding me? These kids cannot walk a few hundred yards to the bus stop? This is outright laziness. Two options for these lazy parents: send your kids walking to school, or at least to the bus stop, or, even better, get off your lazy butt and walk with them to school or the bus stop. And before you start thinking, well, this isn’t the old days when everyone walked to school, I did it less than 20 years ago. I am 26 years old. The first day that Braelinn Elementary opened when I was in the third grade, I walked to school. My mother would not permit me to ride the bus less than a mile. And people wonder why we have an obesity problem in our society today.

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“A Nation of Thieves” by Walter Williams put some facts to the welfare debate and allowed me to put it into perspective. Extrapolating on the numbers he presented, I determined that seven non-poor people contribute to that $16,750 per person in federal social aid for one poor person. (This is based on an American population of 295 million in 2005, compared to the 37 million in poverty in in 2005, cited by Mr Williams. 258 million fund the 37 million, a ratio of 7 to 1.) That translates to me paying for $2,400 for one poor person. Based on my salary of $74,000, this is 3.2 percent. I have no issue paying 3.2 percent of my salary to give poor people help. It would be nice to decrease the bureaucracy and increase monitoring and accountability to minimize cost and abuse, but even with those problems, I don’t regret my contribution. Minimizing the gap between upper and lower classes prevents the problems that we see in third world countries: increased crime, starving children, children in the sex industry, drastic cultural differences that prevent poor people from assimilating into the richer populations, etc. Mr. Williams cited Biblical rules by calling social aid “theft.” Well, my mind drifted to two different biblical concepts: 10 percent tithing for God’s work and Jesus’ saying that what you do unto the least of these, you do unto Him. My conclusion is that I am not doing enough for the poor, contributing a mere 5 percent of my salary to charity (if I include federal social programs plus the other donations I tend to make). I appreciate Mr. Williams for reminding me of my delinquency and hope that others drew the same lesson from his article, although I suspect that many single-issue voters (the anti-welfare crowd) will walk away with a different lesson than I did.

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While my husband and I were riding our bicycles on the cart paths Friday afternoon, Aug. 15, I fell at the corner of Crosstown and Cameron. There were several people who stopped to help us. A nurse started cleaning up my wounds, called the EMT. Another lady left three nice bandages. Someone else brought our bikes home. The EMT people from the Braelinn fire station were just great and brought me home. They told me what to do, walked me up to my door and offered to come back if I needed help with bandages. We have been in Peachtree City less than a year, but we have found many caring and helpful people. I don’t know who any of these people are, but we both want to say thank you, thank you so much!

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It’s time to set governments straight. Why are people all over the world trying to break away from their rulers? The reason is that governments large and small have become too large, oppressive and do not function for the best interest of the people. The province of Georgia is trying to break away from Russia. The old Yugoslavia has previously separated from their Russian rulers. Areas in Africa have been fighting for years for independence. Look at Ireland with its long time fight with Great Britain. Mongolia doesn’t want to be part of China. The French population has long sought separation from Canada. And of course the U.S. Southern states fought the bloodiest civil war in history. On local levels people of municipalities resent electing representatives that are not responsive to the voters and become part of the controlling government that passes laws that take away property rights. Sandy Springs, Johns Creek and Dunwoody have broken away from their incompetent county rulers. In Tyrone citizens are constantly having to sue their government. State representatives become invisible to the voters after being elected. Even in the face of the people’s resentment, governments continue to grow larger. Government employees become little despots, like in Tyrone, taking public funds for personal use. Statistics show that 50 percent of the U.S. working population either works directly for a government or makes their living from government contracts. As governments grow larger, they tax the people for salary raises, other benefits and to hire more government workers. The rest of us pay for all this needless waste. Politicians take campaign donations and spend it on mistresses. The primary purpose of government is to provide safety, but crime is rampant and the people are not safe. The judicial system is a farce, dragging out justice, refusing to bring cases to court, making decisions in opposition to the majority; just look at the Brian Nichols murder case. The government hires its own lawyers, paid for by the taxpayers, but these lawyers only represent the government’s interests. Safety, public works, and commerce are the primary functions of government. But infrastructure is failing, pollution is bad, human wastes are dumped into rivers. Zoning laws restrict commerce. Our manufacturing base is destroyed so we import more that we produce, and our children are allowed to watch sex on TV in the name of freedom of speech. Now government has spent us blind, destroyed the value of the dollar by promoting inflation, feeds us poisonous food, puts health care beyond our ability to pay, then sends our boys off to die in foreign lands to further promote these so-called ideals of democracy that have long been abandoned in the U.S. After causing a recession, the U.S., state and local governments are facing bankruptcy. And what will they do about it? They’ll raise your taxes to try and hang on a little longer. It’s time for a second American Revolution. Our very survival depends on it.

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If we go with John McCain energy policy and just drill offshore and in Alaska’s ANWR and we become independent from foreign oil, will we still be slaves to the oil companies?

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To the Republicans who are commenting negatively about the fact that Democrats apparently like “cheaters,” referring to Clinton and Edwards: Hello! Is there a statute of limitations on cheating? Lest we not forget, John McCain admitted to cheating on his first wife with his current wife, Cindy. And before we go insulting anyone’s character, you might want to research her past a bit. Adultery clearly crosses party lines. When it comes to intelligence, I’m not so sure.

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Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 5:13am.

Just want to let you both know that I survived a "zooming" by the "Gitmobile" on Ga 85 yesterday morning. Fortunately, my ancient jalopy did not suffer any major structural damage. Smiling

Have a great day, I'm off to San Diego.
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

eodnnaenaj1's picture
Submitted by eodnnaenaj1 on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 10:30am.

Glad to know you survived the "zooming"! I really need to talk to that guy about his driving.

Have fun in San Diego.

Submitted by jokerman on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 6:45am.

No, a better question would be- why are all those bottles being dumped on the ground when there are a million trash cans there? That would be the right question. I also know the answer to the question.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:11pm.

How are you doing?
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:17pm.

I’m doing great.

We will be taking the RV for a spin the first week of September.

My son in-law Greg is going to drive it up to the NC Mountains for us and if everything goes according to plan we will be there for three weeks and then head back home.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:31pm.

Are you going to visit Transylvania County? There are lots of waterfalls, that's why I am asking.

"Whatever you practice is what you will be good at".

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 9:16pm.

We will be around the Cherokee area I think that’s Jackson County

I believe Transylvania County is a little further east.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 9:22pm.

I always feel at home in the mountains.

"Whatever you practice is what you will be good at".

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 9:33pm.

We have a family connection to the Cherokee area so it's like home to me.
My grandmother was born there.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:20pm.

You will really enjoy that. Is this the first time in that RV?
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:25pm.

No, we took a short trip in it when we first got it. The kids have used it more than we have.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:28pm.

Is it a motor coach or trailer?
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:34pm.

It’s a Fleetwood Revolution LE diesel motor coach.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:37pm.

RV!!!! You do it right!!!!!

Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:46pm.

Well we were planning on making a lot trips when I retired so we got a big one.

We keep it in one of our company warehouses on the south east side of Atlanta

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:51pm.

Mrs. Cy and I want to become work campers and live on the beach.
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Submitted by Bonkers on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:40am.

I retired sometime ago.
Camping or sitting on the beach gets old pretty quick, believe me--try it a year or two! Same with the woods.
I advise you to have something to do that you like---something productive---maybe many things. One of mine is computers, another is family about 12 times a year--including a Hawaiian or European vacation
once in a while (chip in), another is we get together 12-15 times a year at various homes. Good food, good TV, etc., we know our grandsons pretty well. Write some for your children and grandkids. They will enjoy that stuff of olden days.
Stay away from too many old people--you will become one of them!

Do not use alcohol as a sub for planning and energy! One good drink is sufficient before meals.

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:58pm.

I viewed the web site that you sent me of the RV Park in Fla. Looks like a nice place to retire.

I love the ocean but right now I'm not able to do a lot. So the Mrs. decided we were going to the mountains.

My response was yes dear.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 9:02pm.

Now where have I heard that before. Puzzled
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

MainframeComputerGuy's picture
Submitted by MainframeComputerGuy on Fri, 08/22/2008 - 10:41pm.

Let's put it all "into perspective". Your welfare nation has been in place for the past 40 years and is recognized by everyone with a brain (ie: no Libs) as a FAILURE. All your class equalizing accomplishes is an entitlement class that never rises above its level. Only abolishing entitlements forces the "entitled" to make their own way and rise above their "poverty" levels. There's only one race that insists on wallowing there and demanding ongoing accommodation and it isn't Asians, Irish, Italians, or ???

Everything with you Libs is that it hasn't been "fully financed" -- let's dump more money into programs that simply DON'T WORK. Oh, sorry, am I yelling? Best example I can cite is the most expensive, least accomplished school system in the nation -- Washington DC. And the list is endless.

Listen up Democrats/Liberals/Progressives/Socialists/Communists -- it DOESN'T work! Your class equalization crap has NEVER worked! And it isn't because YOU weren't in charge! We have the BEST standard of living in the world and we aren't going to let you steal it from our children and grandchildren!

The Obamanation can go back to stealing the good life from the citizens of Illinois -- they seem to like it, but we don't want it! Oh, by the way, you should move your family to France -- I'm sure you'd all like it much better.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 2:42pm.

“…we aren't going to let you steal it from our children and grandchildren!”

How is this not the very essence of Republican economics with huge tax cuts for the wealthy creating trillions of dollars in public debt to be passed on to our children and grandchildren?

Let’s not forget what Bush inherited, an economy so robust that Greenspan labeled the paying off of the national debt to a serious problem because it would limit his ability to influence fiscal policy by manipulating interest rates to affect inflation.

Here’s Greenspan’s speech from 2001, 5 days after Bush took office:

Testimony of Chairman Alan Greenspan

Greenspan said:

“The challenges you face both in shaping a budget for the coming year and in designing a longer-run strategy for fiscal policy were brought into sharp focus by the release last week of the Clinton Administration's final budget projections, which showed further upward revisions of on-budget surpluses for the next decade.”

“The most recent projections from the OMB indicate that, if current policies remain in place, the total unified surplus will reach $800 billion in fiscal year 2011, including an on-budget surplus of $500 billion. The CBO reportedly will be showing even larger surpluses.”

“In the end, the outlook for federal budget surpluses rests fundamentally on expectations of longer-term trends in productivity…”

His cautionary ending, “We need to resist those policies that could readily resurrect the deficits of the past and the fiscal imbalances that followed in their wake.”

Exactly what Bush and the Republican congress did not do.

The only hope to keep from stealing “it from our children and grandchildren” is to elect Obama and the Democrats.

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 2:22pm.

Clinton leaves a recession to Bush and you try to say that he inherited a robust economy? Did Bush cause the stock market crash in 2000 too?

Since “Clinton Administration's final budget projections” showed a huge surplus and since Greenspan, who helped engineer the mess, put it in a speech, then it must have been true. Good enough for the Carter Center anyway.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 2:32pm.

We've missed you!

No, I'm not relying on just Greenspan's speech. His data was from the OMB and CBO. If you have some secret data which trumps the top government budget agencies of Congress and the White House please share it.

(Just to be clear, I do not represent the Center here. They're non-partisan, I'm not.)

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 2:50pm.

I wish I had more time for some spirited debates.

The data I'm looking at is the negative GDP growth of late 2000 and early 2001 (before any Bush tax cuts took effect).

I tend to believe that reality trumps OMB and CBO projections. How do you get those surpluses from a contracting economy?

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 3:32pm.

The economy was for the most part expanding albeit at a slower rate. This is to be expected under Republican administrations especially when considering GNP instead of just GDP. For every four year period from Kennedy through Clinton, the best growth in GNP under any Republican does not reach or match the average under the Democrats. Conversely, the worst performance under any Democrat does not reach as low as the Republican GNP growth average. George Bush’s administration is not included but, being at the very bottom, his figures will further skew the Republican average down.

Gross Domestic Product

Series ID: GDP
Source: U.S. Department of Commerce: Bureau of Economic Analysis
Release: Gross Domestic Product
Seasonal Adjustment: Seasonally Adjusted Annual Rate
Frequency: Quarterly
Units: Billions of Dollars

2000-01-01 9629.4
2000-04-01 9822.8
2000-07-01 9862.1
2000-10-01 9953.6
2001-01-01 10021.5
2001-04-01 10128.9
2001-07-01 10135.1
2001-10-01 10226.3
2002-01-01 10333.3

From 2000 until 2002 the GDP expanded by $ 703,900,000,000.

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 7:38pm.

GDP is the common measure used now. A negative percentage change from the preceding period, over several periods, marks a recession. That’s what we had in late 2000 to 2001 - a contracting

I don’t think that there’s much dispute over that. The dispute is how we got out of it, and the answer of course is growth from tax cuts. Leave the money in the hands of the producers, not the government hacks who pay people not to work.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 10:17am.

Neither the CBO nor the administration's own calculations show anything but negligible impact of the tax cuts except in increasing the deficit.

CBO: Tax Cuts’ Impact Has Faded

“CBO director Peter Orszag concluded that the tax cuts’ indirect impact on economic growth, investment and saving and could affect this year’s budget deficit anywhere from an increase of $3 billion to a reduction of $14 billion, depending on the assumptions used. That is separate from the direct boost to the deficit through lost revenue and the added interest on borrowing to cover the gap of $211 billion. It currently expects this year’s deficit to be between $150 billion and $200 billion, (2007) implying that without the tax cuts, the budget would probably be in surplus this year.”

The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities review in “A Comprehensive Assessment of the
Bush Administration’s Record on Cutting Taxes” found:

“The Bush tax cuts have contributed to revenues dropping in 2004 to the lowest level as a share of the economy since 1950, and have been a major contributor to the dramatic shift from large projected budget surpluses to projected deficits as far as the eye can see.”

“The tax cuts have conferred the most benefits, by far, on the highest-income households — those least in need of additional resources — at a time when income already is exceptionally concentrated at the top of the income spectrum.”

“The design of these tax cuts was ill-conceived, resulting in significantly less economic stimulus than could have been accomplished for the same budgetary cost. In part because the tax cuts were not as effective as alternative measures would have been, job creation during this recovery has been notably worse than in any other recovery since the end of World War II.”

A Comprehensive Assessment

Here are the figures for real GDP growth since 1947. For whatever reason, it is clear that the Bush administration is going to average at the very bottom. It’s hard to make the argument that Bush’s tax cuts led to growth in the economy

GDP Growth Rate

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 1:35pm.

Do liberals really think that we can tax ourselves into prosperity? We have had record tax receipts. The cause of the budget deficit is that the record spending is even bigger.

I can’t believe you would even cite a couple of leftist organizations like the Center on budget and policy priorities and the Brookings institute, especially a report from 4 years ago. They say that “The Bush tax cuts have contributed to revenues dropping in 2004 to the lowest level as a share of the economy since 1950…” Again, revenues have hit records since then (and are up as a percentage of GDP), but why should we be the least bit concerned that revenue sucked out of the economy by the federal government is at the lowest level since 1950? The only problem I see with that is that it’s still way too high!

Your sources also contradict each other. Peter Orszag of the CBO states in a letter that “As a result, receipts as a share of GDP rose from 16.5 percent in 2003 to 18.4 percent
in 2006, an increase of 1.9 percentage points (see Table 1, attached).” cbo letter
How do you ‘splain that?

The tax cuts stimulated the economy this time just as they did when JFK and the great Ronald Reagan implemented them. It just doesn’t happen in a week, which is as far out as a liberal think tank like the Center on Budget and Policy can think.

Your “GDP growth rate” link didn’t work by the way.

Have you seen the new census report? Real median income was up for the third year in a row. I thought that was a little strange for the “worst economy ever”. I also noticed a big dive in income on the chart starting around 1978. I wonder who was president then. Lucky for us it took a sharp turn back up after Ronald Reagan’s tax cuts took effect.

Ruth Kimble's picture
Submitted by Ruth Kimble on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 1:15pm.

Jeff always cites numerous contradictory sources and trumpets them as fact. It is a tactic he relies on contstantly, especially when he is losing the argument.

The article below from Investors Business daily. It refutes Jeff's sources and his argument completely.
American Income – Better Now than 8 Years Ago
(The Pie Got Bigger)
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008 4:20 PM PT
Economy: Average U.S. income fell when George Bush took office in 2001. Naturally, Democrats and the media unfairly blamed him for it. But now Americans are better off than when Bill Clinton was president.
According to the latest data from the Internal Revenue Service, average adjusted gross income in 2006 hit $58,029 in 2006 dollars. It was the first time that average income had exceeded the peak year of 2000, the year before incomes began to decline. The average income in 2006 was 1.2%, or $739, higher than in 2000, when incomes were swollen by capital gains from a roaring market, and $1,369 over the 2005 average.
We've heard a lot about how Bush has mismanaged the economy, but there's no evidence of this. In fact, incomes began growing in 2003 after falling in 2001 and 2002 and have trended upward every year since. The small bump in 2003 was followed by gains of $2,291 in 2004 and $2,210 in 2005.

Meanwhile, there's been only one quarter of negative GDP growth, the fourth quarter of last year, which was preceded by two quarters of 4.8% gains.
It can hardly be argued that Bush is responsible for falling incomes in 2001 and 2002, or that he's been a poor steward of the economy.
He inherited a decline that began on Clinton's watch with negative growth in the third quarter of 2000 and again in the first quarter of 2001. A stock market crash and the 9/11 attacks hit incomes hard, as did a series of Fed rate hikes. The effects of the resulting slowdown continued until Bush's economic policies, especially his tax cuts, kicked in.
Thanks to a growing economy, Americans' real disposable income has increased every quarter but two from the beginning of 2003, when Bush's policies started going into full effect, to the first quarter of 2007. Some of the growth was remarkable, including a 7.5% jump in the fourth quarter of 2004 and a 6.3% increase in the third quarter of 2003.
In November, voters will pick a candidate to replace a president who did an exceptional job of steering the economy through tough circumstances, but hasn't gotten a shred of credit for it. The best choice is the man who's more interested in increasing income than redistributing — and ultimately shrinking — it.

Ruth Kimble

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 2:01pm.

Ruth has at last found an article which completely refutes my sources and argument completely. I was very interested in this because almost every source I use is analyzing data from the IRS, CBO and OMB so naturally a source refuting the Congressional and White House budget offices has to be good. Maybe as good as some of Richard Hobb’s sources!


The crux of the article is this: “Internal Revenue Service, average adjusted gross income in 2006 hit $58,029 in 2006 dollars. It was the first time that average income had exceeded the peak year of 2000, the year before incomes began to decline. The average income in 2006 was 1.2%, or $739 higher than in 2000…”

Well that blows my argument completely! In reality, the economy is in terrific shape! Up over a FULL PERCENTAGE POINT in just six years. Why, that’s two whole tenths of a percentage point on average per year!

On average…

But looking at the data (darn it) what do we find?

Total income increased by $619.2 billion or 8.3 percent, all of which went to those making more than $75,000, and 42 percent of which went to the roughly one in 400 taxpayers who made more than $1 million in 2006.

The average wage in 2006 was $46,996, down $101, or a fraction of 1 percent, from $47,097 in 2000.

Among workers with salaries of less than $1 million, the average wage in 2006 was up $170 from 2000.

Average U.S. Income Showed First Rise Over 2000

But let’s not disparage Ruth’s robust economy too much. After all it is an average of $735 for those who got it. After 6 years of Republican economics, you’re averaging almost $0.38 a day more. Keep on like this and, compared to 2000, you’ll be making a whole dollar a day more in 2020.

Bush’s tax cuts did not come anywhere close to stimulating the economy, proven by the facts that (1) this has been the slowest recovery on record, (2) the economy has not returned to its pre-recession level, and (3) the recovery has been only a small fraction of the pace the economy grew after Reagan implemented his tax raises after Bush 41 implemented his tax raises and after Clinton implemented his two large tax raises and (4) proven by virtually all time-correlated studies using actual data.

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 12:09pm.

GDP was revised upward to 3.3% for the second quarter. What's worse is the 13.2% increase in exports. Darn that free trade. Of course it would be even better with more free trade agreements - which is precisely why the democrats in congress are blocking them.

And don't hold the charts upside down, Jeff. Tax cuts lead to growth and productivity increases, which is the only way to increase real wages.

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 4:28pm.

"After 6 years of Republican economics, you’re averaging almost $0.38 a day more."

Wow, I guess we are better off now than we were before!

Thanks, Dubya. That 38 cents a day makes a world of difference!

Vote McSame!

Ruth Kimble's picture
Submitted by Ruth Kimble on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 4:18pm.

Usually, reasonable folks can disagree on controversial topics. However, your inability to admit Bush’s tax cuts worked resembles Obama’s inability to admit the surge worked. It borders on categorical lunacy.
Keep jousting at windmills. It is very amusing Don.
Ruth Kimble

Submitted by Bonkers on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 5:13pm.

Bush tax cuts worked!!!!
Do you not read the papers? Foreclosures, high unemployment, unending wars, on and on.

Surge worked!!!! six years and we are definitely staying---just like the Russians are staying in Georgia. Even the Afghans criticized us for allowing a 100 A DAY OF THEIRS TO BE KILLED! There is still no fit government in Iraq, no hospitals, no schools of any order, no water, no electricity, no nothing of consequence. But we will hang around in the conclave zone to try and keep Iran out for ever. It sure worked!

Ruth Kimble's picture
Submitted by Ruth Kimble on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 9:03am.

Actually Bonkers, if not for Bush’s tax cuts, the economy would have been in a recession years ago. But don’t let that stop you from spouting the liberal talking points. Good lib. Good lib.

By the way – Congratulations! You figured it out. I really am Denise.

WAIT! No, this is my week to be Steve Brown. Ooops. So I’ll have to be Denise next week. Or was it Git’s turn to be Steve Brown? Someone left me off the identity calendar distribution list. Do you have a copy? If so, please forward it to

Oh wait, here it is. Just found my copy of the weekly identity calendar. It was in my junk mail folder. I’m supposed to be sage this week. Isn’t that you? Actually, YOU are on the schedule to be Denise this week. Good luck.

If you really want to know who I am, take the letters of my fake name, derive their numerical equivalents, and subtract 336. That will give you two out of the four numbers of my street address. If you multiply that by 7,829, it will give you my phone number. Then you can do a reverse telephone number search and figure it all out.

(That ought to keep our friend bonkers busy for a few months . . . Oh darn it, did I say that out loud?)

Ruth Kimble

Submitted by Bonkers on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 11:04am.

I care not for names, anyway.

As to Mr. Bush (soon), He let the banks go crazy, he let the oil companies go crazy with write-offs and tax breaks, his war back-fired---letting oil triple instead of holding it level, he started a war he didn't know what he was doing in, he abandoned the Taliban to their will in Afghanistan, he caused the price of oil to rise so much with the war, and ignoring China's usage, that RUSSIA became rich again with their large stores of oil and feel like bullies again!

I won't argue further with someone who doesn't understand these kind of things, nor care.

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 12:45pm.

Russia and China drill for their own oil, on their own soil, as well as foreign waters (Cuba coastline). The spike in oil prices is due to oil speculators driving the cost up, and demand exceeding supply. Do you think the Democrat imposed moratorium on offshore drilling might have something to do with it too? Feel free to pick up a newspaper, turn on the TV, or read a blog without bias.

“Every time you vote Democrat God kills a kitten.”

Ruth Kimble's picture
Submitted by Ruth Kimble on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 10:06am.

Let me prove it to you. Let’s talk Roe vs. Wade.
It doesn’t really matter who we elect as the next President. If you think about it pragmatically, Roe vs Wade will never be overturned. All the concern about the Supreme Court balance is overblown. Think about it.

Overturning Roe vs. Wade would relegate women to nightmarish back alley abortions. It will never happen. In the future, both sides will keep making attempts to score points with related issues on the fringe of this topic. No matter what the composition of the Supreme Court, I do not see Roe vs. Wade ever being overturned. If it does get overturned, a mass revolt among women nationwide would result.

Both sides have compelling arguments on this issue. I sympathize with both. In the future, both sides will continue to try and score points by challenging the extremes of both positions. But at the core, Roe vs. Wade will remain intact. That is what I believe.
How am I doing? That is pretty much how Denise feels about this issue, isn’t it?

Now that I’ve proven I really am Denise, I guess I will have to give up the charade. From now on, just call me Ruth “Denise Conner” Kimble, for short. LOL

Ruth Kimble

Submitted by Bonkers on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 11:31am.

People who have a fit all of the time concerning whether to have a baby or not, on either side, have more to worry about than what other people do!

This item alone makes hypocrites out of most "cons" who usually want the government out of our business---and that includes having babies. Do you want to make all crimes or immorality a federal offense?

Just don't, or do, your own abortions and let poor little 14 year old Susie or a 25-30 year old nut (like the one in the news now) alone with theirs!

If you insist on arguing "murder" then forget an answer.

Hey, we made alcohol illegal, and then legal again by the changing of the Constitution! We seemed to have worse alcoholics with bath tub gin and lead utensils than we did with bottled in bond!

And people aren't going to quit sexing either.

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 10:15am.

However, we have to look at Obamas voting record concerning the partial and live birth abortion issues. He was the only one to basically vote for this nightmarish practice. Even after that nurse plead the case to Obama of the infant that she rocked for 45 minutes until it died in her arms. He still voted to keep this pracice in place. Seem a bit souless, doesn't it?

Then again, I'm a man. So, no uterus, no opinion.

“Every time you vote Democrat God kills a kitten.”

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 8:16am.

The argument against welfare has validity only if corporate welfare is included. Talk about creating a needy class! Exxon, Haliburton, Blackwater, Fannie May & Freddie Mac, and on and on and on.

"Whatever you practice is what you will be good at".

MainframeComputerGuy's picture
Submitted by MainframeComputerGuy on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 11:12pm.

First off, "welfare" is a stipend paid to people for doing and contributing nothing -- hardly how you can define Corporate tax deductions or credits. Second, the corporate tax rates should be REDUCED -- those corporations actually PRODUCE our energy, home investements, war time support, JOBS, etc. Instead, why don't we stop making our lending institutions make bad mortgage loans to people who can't pay them on properties that aren't worth it in the first place? Oh yeah, that wouldn't be "progressive". Heyyy, why not have Obama get his benefactor, Tony Rezko to finance all those questionable mortgages? That way Fannie & Freddie could continue on with the business of keeping responsible mortgage lending afloat!

If you just practice being a bullshi**er then I guess that's all you are.

Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 1:14am.

I just read not two weeks ago in the Washington Post, Reuters, etc. that Large Corporations do not pay any Taxes at all. By the time they get their incentives, deductions, etc. they end up paying No taxes. That cheats the little business owners. They do pay taxes, as well as the rest of us tax paying citizens.
If these corporations want to take their jobs and businesses out of this Country then, they should be taxed double or triple..if they don't like it then they can go to Russia. Russia might let them set up their business and if it starts making money, that business probably won't get to keep a red that a pun? Na that's China... We have the best Country for Business in the World but unless people/Corporations start sharing the wealth this Country is going down. "Rome" does that ring any bells. Rome sure lasted a lot longer than this Country will if we don't change our ways.
There is always going to be needy people that is just the facts of life. Some need lots of help, some need help for a short time, some need help all their lives.
It costs money to keep a Country like ours running smoothly, all able Citizens have to share in that expense. Corporations make billions of dollars, they should pay their fair share of taxes just like everyone else.

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 2:32pm.

How much do you think Exxon (a corporation in case you didn't know) paid in taxes for 2007? I'll give you a hint: It's about the same as the ENTIRE amount paid by the bottom 50% of individual income tax filers.

Submitted by Bonkers on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 6:41pm.

I paid a lot of that Exxon tax---I burn a lot of their gas!

mapleleaf's picture
Submitted by mapleleaf on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 5:00pm.

I believe the article in question was about foreign corporations, like Canon, Nikon, etc. Home Depot reported paying $2.4 billion in income tax for the year ended Feb. 3, 2008. Wal-Mart paid $6.9 billion. Altria Group (Philip Morris) paid $4.1 billion in income tax plus $3.5 billion in federal excise tax.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 4:56pm.

Where else are taxes going to come from? Income dropped for the bottom 90% of Americans for 2005 (the last year I could find) by 0.6%. The gain in income for the top 1% of Americans averaged $1.1 million in 2005.

The top 300,000 people in the country make more money than the bottom 150 million.

As for Exxon, according to Securities & Exchange Commission filings, Exxon paid an effective tax rate of 34% to the U.S. government in 2007, or $5.12 billion. This reflects almost $17 billion in breaks to benefit the oil and gas industry made up mainly of tax breaks newly offered or extended in the Energy Policy Act of 2005, including a "percentage depletion allowance" that allows oil companies to deduct 15% of their sales revenue, to reflect the declining value of their investment, and 70% of their drilling costs.

Exxon paid $30 billion worldwide to all governments at all levels for 2007, on profit after deductions of $70.6 billion. The bottom half of American taxpayers paid $27.9 billion in income taxes (2005) not including Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid (7.65%), state and local income taxes, sales taxes and property taxes. Their average annual income is about $14,000.

If you want to slow the growth of government then vote Democratic.

Submitted by boo boo on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 2:59am.

The top 300,000 people in the country make more money than the bottom 150 MILLION. Unbelievable Jeff.

Is that what they call taking from the top until the bottom fall's out? Good Grief.

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 7:51pm.

I guess you could slow the growth of government by decimating the growth of the econmy, Jeff. Is that what you mean when you say "If you want to slow the growth of government then vote Democratic"?

Interesting point, but we would all have a higher standard of living if the liberals in government left the capital in the hands of the capitalists instead of redistributing what they see as a fixed-sized pie.

Wealth is created by the producers, naturally they're going to end up with more than the non-producers. If you want more wealth, start producing.

Submitted by lion on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 5:17pm.

Jeff is right.

If you have income over $250,000 (or $5,000,000 on the McCain scale), then you must be willing to open your pocketbooks and contribute to the common good.

Help build new infrastructure and transportation systems (bridges, highways, railroads, mass transit). Help make this a more just society and one with more hope for those who have not been so fortunate as you.

If you have a lot of money, then this country has been good to you. Step up to the plate and stop whining.

Submitted by USArmybrat on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 8:06pm.

IT BELONGS TO YOU!! We haen't quite made us into a marxist state yet, have we? And it has been known to happen, that people actually do work hard and sacrifice to make what they own! Believe me, those that are making 250,000 are already having their pockets picked!

Submitted by USArmybrat on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 8:06pm.

IT BELONGS TO YOU!! We haen't quite made us into a marxist state yet, have we? And it has been known to happen, that people actually do work hard and sacrifice to make what they own! Believe me, those that are making 250,000 are already having their pockets picked!

Fred Garvin's picture
Submitted by Fred Garvin on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 9:18am.

Boo Boo,

Let me guess, you're a government educated liberal democrat.

The U.S. has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world. Corporations are moving jobs overseas where corporate taxes are less, and they are therefore able to make more of a profit.

Barack Obama wants to raise corporate taxes, which will in turn drive even more jobs out of the U.S.

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 7:25pm.

My oh my! Conservatives do have a sensitive side after all! My original comment was in reference to the "hand-in-the-till, treasury-raiding" welfare payments and favors to certain corporations. I brought up Exxon because of their "favorable" treatment regarding the Exxon Valdez incident, not how much they pay in taxes. You would have me all wrong if you think I am in favor of any form of "welfare", where something is given for nothing. The social welfare is a mechanism to keep the poor in that condition, and is not designed to help anyone. A class of people are given the opportunity to put their hand out for assistance, and then something is put into it that truly makes them poor. The crying and whining about social welfare is more pitiful than the welfare itself.

"Whatever you practice is what you will be good at".

Submitted by boo boo on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 7:15pm.

I'm an Independent. I vote for the person, NEVER for the Party.
Thank you Jeff and Mapleleaf, I knew you both could explain Taxes much better than I.
My Pity is for those not able to work. Those that WON'T work are on their own. Those here illegally are draining our resources, they all need to go back to their own Country . We no longer have enough jobs for our own citizen's let alone another Countries.

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:42am.

If you just practice being a bullshi**er then I guess that's all you are.

You are exactly correct there. I could not agree more. Your logic is awesome dude. Your manners could use a little work though.

"Whatever you practice is what you will be good at".

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 7:30pm.

Don't do this when the wind is blowing really hard.
Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 7:58pm.

"Don't do this when the wind is blowing really hard."

what an idiot!

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 10:22am.

There was another kite surfer who was a 2007 Darwin Award nominee.

Main, I suppose that one can't help but notice that the very vast majority of the Darwin Award winners and nominees are males.

"Whatever you practice is what you will be good at".

Submitted by g8trgrl on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 12:02pm.

The person in Highgrove did not know the Timberlake golf cart path was private? Where have they been living, that is such old news. It's been a battle for years! To think they believed their real estate agent re: access to ptc on the golf cart paths is really funny. I hope they learned to ALWAYS check on what your "agent" tells you. They want to sell you a house & that's all!

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 9:49am.

"Bush gets almost overnight permission from Congress to bomb a country that never bothered us, kills over 4,000 of our finest young people, yet PTC can’t open a cart bridge."

I'm still trying to figure out how, or why , you would interject this comment into your thread about the golf cart bridge. Did you have an ADD moment? "Look, something shiny! Now back to what I was saying."

What is Obama going to do when he changes his mind about a war? Will he send troops into harms way to defend democracy abroad? When the first casualty report comes in, will he say; "Oooops, I changed my mind. Let's bring 'em home."?

We lost over 40,000 lives on our highways last year alone, and you are dissapointed with 4000 brave men and women that layed down their lives to liberate a country void of democracy? Smells like hypocracy to me.

Look, I want the bridge opened as well. But, to throw in this trivial (read as Liberal) attack on President Bush is just...well... pointless. Please, stick to the golf cart paths. Because, frankly, I don't trust you driving on public streets.

“Every time you vote Democrat God kills a kitten.”

Submitted by Bonkers on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 3:04pm.

You, like others in the administration, don't see the importance of our dead and wounded when it was done not out of necessity, but out of power and oil.
People should have to pay for such judgements! Otherwise we will have a country half-full of thinkers like you!

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 10:07am.

You probably didn't read the article prior posting your reply. This is normal behavior for Bonker$. I guess the meds aren't working. Anyway…we’ll move on to your statement about oil.

I'll play your little game. The war (Iraq) was all about oil. Let's see here. The big bad oil companies actually BUY 70-80% of all the oil imported into this country, because of regulations here limiting drilling and building of new refineries. But not just from Iraq. There is Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Kuwait, Venezuela, Mexico and many others that we don't seem to be at war with for oil. Oil is detrimental the US economy, and not just used in automobiles and heating oil. So, if you can live without pavement, plastics, nylon, coke (concrete), WD-40, and bearing grease for your three wheeled bicycle, then call it a war about oil.

Please remember that there is also a difference between a profit and a profit margin. Those evil oil companies that drill, import, refine, distribute, pay employees etc, make 8% profit margin, and the government make 36-45% on that same oil for doing virtually nothing. It must be a war for oil. So, you don't want a war for foreign oil and you don't want to drill here or add any new refineries to increase supply and drop prices. OOOkaaayyy.

You can complain when you go totally granola on us. If you want to go out and harvest the wheat, grind it on a mill stone, bake the bread in the adobe oven, then do so. Until then remember this quote from the band Cracker:

"Get off this. Get on with it. If you want to change the world, shut your mouth and start this minute."

“Every time you vote Democrat God kills a kitten.”

Submitted by skyspy on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 8:56am.

To the person who was complaining about the red room. Did you actually go there? Seriously?

Did you not read the paper after the beatdown killing? No less than 3 people got on here bragging about the illegal drug activity that takes place there. It is a small town dump. What were you thinking? I'm not surprised at all by the gratuitous sex acts. This little town is not polished or sophisticated what were you expecting?

The best places to go are still in Buckhead and Virginia Highlands. The easiest way to have a nice night out is rent a limo gather your friends and relax. If you like blues check out Blind Willies in Virginia Highlands. There are too many options to mention here, and you can hit many of them in one night. Let the limo driver worry about parking and driving.

The only people who seem to have a good night life in PTC are the coyotes or wild dogs in the nature preserve. You can hear them everynight in what sounds like a killing freenzy.

Submitted by Bonkers on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 2:48pm.

As Reagan used to say, "there you go again."

Rent a limo? Go to Atlanta? How many have been killed up there in those areas in the last few years? Too many basketball players there for me.

Anyway the crowd that goes to places like Red Room are poor people who can't rent a limo. Someone else usually has to buy most of the drinks.

The sex stuff in Atlanta is pretty well hidden in private rooms. At a price.

Let the minions and peons use the red room.

Submitted by PTCGOIL on Tue, 08/19/2008 - 10:27pm.

For anyone who cares to know, Cousins Properties(The Avenue) and Ethan Allen have joined together to benefit their part of the land right of way for the CSX Golf car bridge. It's time to call their corporate offices and let them know we will not tolerate any more delays in getting access to this bridge. This is all about money, money, money..maybe if we let them know we will refuse to patronize their stores we will get things moving. Cousins properties 404-407-1000 Ethan Allen 203-743-8234.

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