"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober."

Wonderful essay on Patriotism vs. Nationalism, by Joseph Sobran. I thought that this paragraph in particular is so relevant to the times we are living in now:

"Because the patriot and the nationalist often use the same words, they may not realize that they use those words in very different senses. The American patriot assumes that the nationalist loves this country with an affection like his own, failing to perceive that what the nationalist really loves is an abstraction — “national greatness,” or something like that. The American nationalist, on the other hand, is apt to be suspicious of the patriot, accusing him of insufficient zeal, or even “anti-Americanism.”

We were watching the Olympic coverage last night and caught Bob Costas's interview with Bush where Bob asked the President how much influence the U.S. really has in Chinese affairs, given our own domestic and international problems we are currently facing:

COSTAS: But given China’s growing strength and America’s own problems, realistically how much leverage and influence does the U.S. have here?

THE PRESIDENT: First of all, I don’t see America having problems. I see America as a nation that is a world leader, that has got great values.

(Really? America is not suffering right now? No problems?) Now THAT, is a true Nationalist.

It was his blind Nationalism and failed policies that has caused so many of our current domestic and international "problems" that he just doesn't see.

But Bush wears a flag pin on his lapel so he must be okay.

Ohhh! Travis! You owned him boooooooyyyyy! Who's house is this? Travis' house!! Who's yo daddy? WHOOO'S YO DADDYYYYY?

Kevin "Hack" King

That's the first post I've seen that made me bust out laughing. Nice timing!

Why is being a patriot so very hard for liberals? It's like the word, is dirty, so when a liberal says it, they are almost ashamed.

There is a meaning to the term. Being a Patriot is more than a subjective "feel good" undefinable emotion. By your definition, no one can be accused of not being partiotic. Hell, even the Rosenbergs selling secrets to the Russians were patriots. When Senator Durbin, Obama's senior senator and co-chair to his campaign, calls American Servicemen in Gitmo, NAZIs, he is being a patriot. When Barry and Kerry talk about a Global Test, wherein American interests are subservient to the World's interests, you call that being patriotic.

There are extremes by way of examples on both sides of the definition, but, the word can be defined. I would say the real definition is any act or emotion or desire that endorses love of country over personal desires. That might be pretty weak, so I'll give you another example. Any act, emotion or desire that makes a liberal get sick to his stomach and makes him want to burn an American Flag or to spit on an American Service man/woman.

Here is what you said:
I also see patriotism in Obama, a Senator, a public servant, someone who loves his country who went into the inner city to try and make a difference in people's lives. (Yeah right, he went into the inner city to make a difference? Thats a laugh. If you read his book, and the writings of those he admired, you will see Frank Marshall Davis, an avowed Marxist, taught him begin his "people's rights" campaign in the inner city. Why? because this is right out of the text books of Karl Marx. Remember the Bolshevik Revolution? The Communists went into the inner city and tried to stir up discontent with the workers, laborers, the down trodden. Thats all Barack was doing, padding his resume. Not some high minded concern for the less fortunate.) He became a community organizer because he was devoted to the people of his community, and that in itself is being patriotic. So by your defintion, Karl Marx's Soviet Revolution was patriotism in action? And being a civil rights attorney and teacher of constitutional law was a continuation of his devotion to the betterment of society. You've got me there. I have never read a single article in which his legal expertise has been shown. First though, I'd think he ought to start reading up on what a President's powers are. For example, King Barry ought to know the specifics about what the Joint Chiefs of Staff do, because apparently he spent so much time working with filling out food stamp applications in the inner city of Chicago, that he didn't study what their authority is, since he recently was heard saying that they are in command. Which is another example of his inexperience. He chose to pursue a political career as a Senator and I believe that most, who choose this path, do so because they love their country and are willing to devote themselves to the betterment of America. Are you really that friggin niave? You apparently have been drinking the Obama kool-aid so much, that you will interpret anything and everything the boy king does as being some sort of Messianic prophecy, having come true. Let me give you a hint. Power is the number one motivator for politicians on both sides of the aisle. Its a drug thats all consuming. Which is why, of those that take up burden of power, we must be sure, they are first and foremost good and honest and decent people. John McCain showed some of that character in Vietnam, remaining behind as a captive while others took his place, or with working on both sides of the aisle, even when he was denounced by those of his own party. Obama has shown his true colors, when he associates with the likes of Ayers, Wright, Marshall, and when he throws his own grandmother under the bus for a political spin on the American People.

Words have meaning. The word patriot is like poison to a democrat. They fear it because they know, in their heart of hearts, that America should never be put first. That American interests are always negotiable when it comes to the superior interests of those Europeans and Asians and Muslims who are offended when America acts in her own self interests.

Patriotism is not when one burns the American flag, as liberals love to do, but its the pride that McCain felt when he was shown the pictures of those protesters burning the flag while he was in the POW camp. He said, he felt more pride in America that day than any other. Why? Because where else but in America can idiots freely spew their hatred for America, and do so without retribution or fear. That made him proud of America.

There is a difference, you know it, we all know it. Thats why you tried to adopt a mindless "subjective" definition for the word.

So go ahead and say the Flag burning liberals are patriots. I'll just turn away in disgust, and proudly remember what McCain taught me.

"Why is being a patriot so very hard for liberals? It's like the word, is dirty, so when a liberal says it, they are almost ashamed."

There is NO shame, Richard. However, I believe a liberal's definition of patriotism goes far beyond the Hannity "flag pin" debate some shallow Repub's cherish and abide by. **News Flash** Liberals love their country too and liberals are fighting to get their country back from the clutches of the neocons and the similar agenda McSame has in store for all of us.

"I would say the real definition (patriotism) is any act or emotion or desire that endorses love of country over personal desires. That might be pretty weak, so I'll give you another example. Any act, emotion or desire that makes a liberal get sick to his stomach and makes him want to burn an American Flag or to spit on an American Service man/woman."

Why is it so hard for you and your ilk to comprehend the fact that liberals love their country and possess just as much patriotism as conservatives? Falling "lock-step" behind Bush/McSame may be YOUR definition of patriotism, but it isn't mine. For most Dem's, as well as some Repubs and Indep's in this election year, that is NOT patriotism. We're fighting for our country because we don't want the same Bush agenda for another 4-8 years, 100+ years in Iraq, big oil, decaying economy, high unemployment, tax breaks for the wealthiest, crumbling healthcare system, inept foreigh policy, etc. McCain is status quo, more of the same, but I agree that he does wear that flag pin so he must be more patriotic than Obama. Is that your argument? Which of the two is more patriotic? Are we back in high school or something? What an idiotic argument this has become.

"Yeah right, he went into the inner city to make a difference? Thats a laugh. If you read his book, and the writings of those he admired, you will see Frank Marshall Davis, an avowed Marxist, taught him begin his "people's rights" campaign in the inner city. Why? because this is right out of the text books of Karl Marx. Remember the Bolshevik Revolution? The Communists went into the inner city and tried to stir up discontent with the workers, laborers, the down trodden. Thats all Barack was doing, padding his resume. Not some high minded concern for the less fortunate."

Attributing Obama's work in the inner cities as just trying to pad his resume, makes you sound truly bitter. But that's quite an exotic conspiracy theory, linking his community organization to Marxist tendencies. Wouldn't that also include most local and national politicians then who work closely with their communities? Do they have Marxist leanings too? You're starting to sound like a modern day Joseph McCarthy.

"Are you really that friggin niave? … Let me give you a hint. Power is the number one motivator for politicians on both sides of the aisle. Its a drug thats all consuming."

No, I'm not "that niave [sic]" to believe that a political career can be more than just self-serving. There are scores of outstanding politician's who put community and our country ahead of their own interests. And I also agree that power can be a motivating factor and we've witnessed how power can eventually corrupt our politician's, both publicly and personally (i.e. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, Ted Stevens, John Edwards).

"Words have meaning. The word patriot is like poison to a democrat. They fear it because they know, in their heart of hearts, that America should never be put first."

What in the world are you talking about?! You're grasping at straws, Richard. Stop spewing words you heard from Hannity and Rush. That inane remark makes you sound even more bitter than usual.

"There is a difference, you know it, we all know it. Thats why you tried to adopt a mindless "subjective" definition for the word."

No, you just can't imagine that liberals could actually love their country and have a definition of patriotism that is different than Bush and Company, and the talking heads on Fox. I don't subscribe to Bush's form of patriotism of "you're either with us, or against us" or Hannity's version that one must wear a flag pin in order to love their country. That may have worked in the past, but it doesn't work for most of us anymore.

Wonder why Obama decided to "Wear That Pin" now? That's Obama's words not mine? After all he told us why he wouldn't wear it.

I have not heard Obama say why chose to wear it now?

If you support Obama you better get "That Pin" like Obama's.

Hannity made Obama eat his own words about not wearing the "Flag Pin".

I would guess that he is wearing it because the "shallow ones" on the right (Hannity/Limbaugh/Fox) made it a campaign issue.

You and Richard seem to think that flag pins will help our economy, win the war in Iraq, and lower gas prices.

Wow, good luck with that.

or health care, jobs, energy policy, engaging the world in the 21st century, and on ad infinitum.

Karl Rove barks shade the democrats as (fill in the blank) and the attack dogs go to work.

The lazy news media does not even bother to investigate just speak/print what they are told.

If flag pins are your number 1 issue for deciding what's best for America or the fact the 2 American's can have a civic (non religious) marriage, then your drinking the Kool Aid of what the issues are, as told to you by the propagandists.

or did you mean something else when you said "2 americans can have a civic (non-religious) marriage"? For years, people have gone to the courthouse, had a wedding in their home or somewhere other than a church and had a justice of the peace or even a notary perform the ceremony. It has not been necessary for two people to get married in a church or by a religious officiant in order for it to be legal for as long as I can remember-and believe me that is a long time.LOL

This is getting tedious. Arguing with liberals is like arguing whether the sky is green and the grass is blue. Its mind boggling. You absolutely know of what I speak, but you try and spin the story around by redefining the words. I'm not going to continue to explain to you of how these many facts either proves, or calls into real question whether Obama is a patriot or a partisan. Facts such as

1.) who he associates with on a regular basis, advisors that he's known for decades are absolutely unpatriotic, not to mention Marxists, terrorists, Racists, and Anti-Semites. How this man even got this far in the primaries is beyond comprehension. The idol worship and messianic prophecies that you find on the DailyKos and democratic underground is hilarious.

2.) The fact that he refuses to honor America with wearing an American Flag on his lapel. For God's Sake whats the friggin big deal? Its not that he doesn't wear one. No, I don't wear one usually either. Its that for him, its a sign to other liberals, that he doesn't share the patriotism of those on the Right who Proudly wear that pin with pride. Remember his comment about clinging to our guns and religion? For him and most liberals, pride in our country is akin to a religion. We are emotionally and perhaps, arrogantly proud of our nation, its history and all of the wonderful things it has accomplished in these last 200 plus years. We are blind to how anyone who has been blessed to have been born and raised here, aren't kissing the ground every morning they wake up here in these the United States. But instead of showing a simple symbolism of his pride, he demonstrates his allegiance to the liberal elites, who frown on such "clingy" acts of symbolism.

3.) The fact that even his wife says she is not proud to be an American. This is important, because Michelle Obama and Barry are supposed to be as close, as husband and wife. If Obama is the kind of leader that can transcend race, politics and negative campaigning, then we must believe that his own wife should be part of his own choir. Shouldn't we? And since for the last 20 plus years, his influence over her was never able to convince her that we have so many blessings here in America, and we absolutely can not but be overwhelmed with joy, of pride, of thankfulness. Instead, she doesn't "get it" until Barack gets the lead in the polls. If Barack's own patriotism is not even strong enough to make Michelle proud of America, then yes, I'm going to question whether he is a patriot or not.

Well MainStreet, I'll make this my last post tonight and perhaps on this blog. But I'll remind you that patriotism includes an emotional connection to our country, called Pride! Its something you can't fake, its real and we see it everyday as we live our lives here in Peachtree City. Not true if you walk the streets of most cities, like Seattle, New York, Chicago. There you will not see flags being worn on lapels, you'll instead see flags being burnt, demonstrations being raged over another American travesty of some type. That's not patriotism. That may very well be a right, but these "inner city" types, that have been organized by people like Obama, share that "blame America First" mentality. And frankly, that makes me actually sick. So, yes Mainstreet, I think Obama is very, very unpatriotic, no matter what his spin doctors are trying to say. I think that his liberal elite ways are "coming home to roost" so to speak, and America will figure him out, more and more everyday, perhaps even while they are reading our blogs.

So go ahead and deny these assertions all you want. I'd just stay away from the news for a while, because the American people are questioning his patriotism in increasing numbers.
In this week's CNN polling, they discovered the following:
One-quarter of all registered voters say Obama lacks patriotism, according to the poll. That breaks down to 10 percent of Democrats, 29 percent of independents and 40 percent of Republicans who say Obama lacks patriotism.

Oh and Jeff, if you're son forgot to tell you, I was the Yuengling on my Hog today. Didn't want to barge in, but thought I might have caught you, instead caught your son.

I inadvertently dumped all my email addresses...send me an email...I have a question for you. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Richard's is not a new ploy at all. Doesn't this remind you of him:

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Hermann Goering

What do you think Richard would think of this:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." (Theodore Roosevelt: 1918)

But turnabout is fair play, right Richard?

Prove you love your country. Conclusive proof that can't be clouded by inuendo and suggestions or half truths. Remember that included in your country are liberals, atheists, and gasp, homosexuals.

Kevin "Hack" King

and about Americans (all of them). They do not avoid taking care of their responsibilities as citizens such as serving in the military, paying taxes, doing charity work, coaching youth sports, being responsible human beings.

They do not leave 25% of the citizens without health insurance.
Think education is their right alone and let others fend for himself.
Liberals don't
Believe they are an unequal class of person with others below them.
Believe that by not engaging the world they are safer.
Believe that by not paying taxes, bridges won't fall down.
Believe that by ignoring pollution the world will be a healthy place.
Believe that by spending the treasury now our kids won't pay later.
Believe that Iraq was then or now where Osama is hiding.

I am a liberal, a veteran, a father and grand father and Richard don't ever question my patriotism or anyone else's.

You couldn't carry Barak Obama's gym bag.

NOT!! Come on, Carb, you can do better than that!

carbonunit52 is a male, but thank you for recognizing my sensitive side. My only intention with my reply to Richard's challenge was to stink it up a bit.

I had no idea that you had to be in touch with your feminine side to be sensitive...sorry Carbon