Unfair Tax

Today in the AJC, Jay Bookman's opinion has summarized the idiotic so-called "fair tax" proposals some keep introducing into congress for laughs, I suppose---or to sell books.

I recommend that you read it.
Although our current tax laws are stupid and need simplifying greatly, what they don't need is this stupid proposal.
A 5-6 hundred dollar check to everyone every month! Many would simply live on that and quit what little they now do!

Or buy lottery tickets.

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Submitted by bssmstr1 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:27pm.

Fair tax is the way to go. I dont think liberal douchebag is vulgar. You guys should read the books and brush up. Fair tax is it......period. Hack, go hug a tree.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 10:38am.

If you were making $1000/week and taking home $800/week, how much would you be taking home after the FairTax was implemented?

Submitted by sageadvice on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:49pm.

Of course employers would gradually implement the same take home pay as before!

Withe the "fair" tax applying to all of the things that 75% of us use and is not now taxed, the government would be living off us, not the rich who basically spend the same for a haircut, but it means nothing to them!

What a laugh the refund every month would be.
It would be misspent, expected, wanting expanded, and a dole.

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 3:44pm.

I may be "misled", but not mis-informed. Again, the current system punishes us for hard work and dedication to our jobs. For example:
If I do well and earn a bonus on top of my paycheck (incentive), the government taxes me at approximately 45%. Normally I am taxed at approximately 25%. The only reasoning is that my bonus for doing well "might" put me into a higher tax bracket. "Work hard lil' guy, so we can take half off the top from you".
Would you have the same attitude if it came down to your grades in college? You worked hard and made all A's, but Little Billy screwed around and is failing. "We'll just go ahead and give Little Billy some of what you worked for so that he can pass too. Now both of you pass with C's. Or, if you purchased groceries for you and your family, only to have Mayor Logsdon confiscate half of them to feed the rest of PTC?

Now you have a current view of our system at work.

Additionally, having read the chapter that you refered to, it would be the employers perogative as to how they wish to pay us. Will they do what is beneficial for the company? Absolutely! But I also don't think they would be willing to screw over the very people that generate the revenue. Bite the hand that feeds you? I think not.

"The one constant in all of your failed relationships is you."

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 6:20pm.

I have heard the grades analogy. It’s a cute rhetorical device but the comparison is a false syllogism. I pay huge (to me) taxes and pay an accountant to figure them out because of the complexity and the penalties for errors.

My point is only that we should hold the politicians accountable and demand real tax reform instead of wishing for a pie-in-the-sky solution that has zero chance of being implemented.

If I were going to make a bold suggestion, I would suggest as a start that we try to elect officials with college degrees who might be capable of grasping complex issues.

Given that that seems to be too much to ask for here, the rest just leaves me in despair.

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Wed, 06/04/2008 - 9:02am.

It seems that the grassroots movement has turned into a nationwide plea for tax reform. Yet, no one has come up with a better solution. You are correct in stating that we should hold our politicians feet to the fire, especially when the Bush Tax panel was instructed to NOT assess anything that does not resemble the current model. “Give me solutions, but don’t change anything.”

Will it ever pass? Probably not until the entire nation gets behind it. It would also require repeal of the 16th Amendment. Even if the nation does unify in adopting this tax reform plan, the lobbyists will refuse to relinquish control of the politicians. Remember...Votes must be bought.

I’m currently working on my Executive MBA; perhaps I should run for some type office, preferably, one with a view.

Thanks for the dialogue Jeff.

"The one constant in all of your failed relationships is you."

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Wed, 06/04/2008 - 10:24am.

Congrats on the work toward an MBA! Stop there though; PhD’s don’t make enough money.

As I mentioned, I have been through this before. The Bush tax panel did consider the FairTax explicitly although the panel was not limited to only considering the FairTax:

More FairTax malarky?

When I posted this, it got the attention of the state and national FairTax people who can usually cow people I guess. I think they were surprised to run into someone who does internet research for a living. We had quite an exchange with them generally refusing or being incapable of honestly answering questions:

The problem dculling

A couple of months later, Boortz came out with a seminar and asked everybody to send questions. I sent in my top ten questions which I posted here also. Zero response from Boortz (whom I know and like by the way).

Then a national FairTax spokesman was giving an interview on WAOK and I called in and waited for almost 40 minutes while he told lie after lie about the FairTax. When they put me on I asked: “Does the FairTax apply to rents?”


I’m not looking for a fight or argument. Been there, done that; as you can see from my previous postings.

It may be that you can gain pleasure from fighting a lost cause, this is the South after all where we do that sort of thing.

Let us know what office you decide to run for. I’m looking for Change!

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Wed, 06/04/2008 - 10:40am.

Agree to disagree?

I will run for the office of Vice President of Vice Presidential Decisions and Misdirection. Hey, not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up.

"The one constant in all of your failed relationships is you."

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 11:01am.


"The one constant in all of your failed relationships is you."

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:39pm.

But you have been misled. The correct answer is $800. We have been through this before as you will see if you wish to read my extensive comments and research citing Bootrz, Laurence Kotlikoff and Dr. Dale Jorgenson among others:

Giving up on the FairTax argument

For more from Boortz:

FairTax argument

However, facts don’t sway in this argument and Bookman is right that it will never be implemented so, except for short comments, I don’t intend to refight this particular battle.

BTW, the FairTax also taxes the interest paid above the prime rate on your mortgage and credit card debt.

From way out in left field

You may have to scroll to the next page of comments. Or check out the FairTax legislation on-line and read that:

HR 25, Section 802 (a)(3)(B)(ii)(I) .. says the tax will apply to: “the excess (if any) of the rate paid on such debt over the basic interest rate (as defined in section 805)”

Submitted by surferdude on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:11am.

sageadvice seems like a typical liberal douchebag that thinks the government can do no wrong and is just wonderful. the fair tax would return power to indiduals where it should be. the government can't do anything right and the likes of bookman and sageadvice want more of it.

hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 4:09pm.

I have to object to your opinion of our sage, he is far from typical.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 11:16am.

Your lack of anything constructive to say not withstanding, WHO exactly do you think will calculate pre-bates? Who, exactly, do you think will mail out pre-bates, track their useage, adjust the tax structure of businesses no longer taking income tax out, determine which new items are taxed (like mortgage and credit card interest)? The government you genius! You just want the government to work in the way you in all your wisdom see fit. But do not for a minute try to convince actual thinking people that somehow the government will no longer have a roll under this screwball "Fair Tax" system. How many economists will be hired to figure out how in the heck to guess the prebate for 300 million Americans? Conservatives are actually beginning to truly chap my hide! Your ideas have NOT WORKED GOING ON 7 YEARS NOW! They haven't brought stability to the Middle East. They have not balanced a budget! They have not curbed spending! They haven't strengthened the dollar! When Sage or Bookman rightly criticize pie in the sky conservative panaceas, you would be better served to grab your crayons and just color within the lines, because we've seen the true genius of your ideas. And, to put it frankly, I would not trust you with a concession stand!

Kevin "Hack" King

rock78's picture
Submitted by rock78 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 6:30am.

Your post is completely uninformed, and frankly ruins any level of credibility. Read up on the Fair Tax before you randomly assert knowledge on the issue. Are you really suggesting that the administrative costs of the FT will even APPROACH what we pay today under the IRS?

Put the democrats in power, they will raise Capital gains taxes, rollback the Bush Tax cuts (Which in effect will be the highest tax increase in our governments HISTORY, not to mention the fact that even those making ~ $30K per year will see an increase in taxes. That should be of concern to you democrats, after all, that is your target voting base) and implement Universal Health care. Heck, Obama supports donating .7% of our GDP to other countries.

What exactly has YOUR party done since taking over the house and the senate? Other than obviously getting lower approval rating(s) than Bush? What type of tax reform do you support, HACK?

EDIT - For the record, I don't support the childish name calling that your reply referenced. It's extremely frustrating for some to question the Fair Tax without doing their research (I expect that from Dollar, but not from you, Hack.) If you want some legit issues with the system, reference Jeffc's critiques from several months ago.

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 11:34am.

You should actually try reading the first and second FairTax books, and stop believing everything you read in the AJC. Every article written in the AJC regarding the FairTax is quite prejudice, and uniformed. The authors have either not read either books, or really like our broken system of taxation. Probably both.
There has been over $20 million in research performed on this reforming tax bill, and top economists believe this in this as well.
As for 30%, well there is another fallacy. Try 23%, and that is the cost that is already imbedded in what you already pay. I would love to be able to spell it all out for you, but then again, that is the purpose of the books.

"The one constant in all of your failed relationships is you."

yardman5508's picture
Submitted by yardman5508 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:20pm.

we get the "Read the Book" mantra. There is no escaping the fact that the Fair Tax "pre-bate" creates the largest "welfare program" in the history of this country. Argue all you want about "embedded" taxes and "invisible" taxes, you are putting the ENTIRE country on the dole. I don't like the current system of taxation; I don't like paying taxes anymore than the next guy. But taxes are the price we pay to live under this system of government. When we can figure out how to tax those who benefit most (economically), then and only then can we claim that we have a fair tax system. But I am sure you know, that SOMEONE will always be able to claim that the system is unfair because they pay more than their neighbot. Keep the faith.

Even a dead fish can go with the flow.

JAFO 72's picture
Submitted by JAFO 72 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 7:40am.

It is common place for people to jump the gun or have a knee jerk reaction to change. And, I know that none of us has the time to read all of the legislation that comes up for vote. If we did we would be politicians ourselves. However, it confuses me that some believe the this prebate to be some sort of "welfare" plan. If you don't understand HR 25, and S25, just read the book. It's not some conspiracy theory to take more money away from us. There is a reason it is called The FairTax. It levels the playing field, and stops punishing Americans, and American companies for hard work. It makes government decisions (with your money) more transparent. Yes, the IRS goes away, along with 60,000 pages of tax code that even the IRS can't make heads or tails of. The Treasury Department takes over.

Everyone knows that we have to have taxes. That's just the way it is, I got it. Is there a better way to do it? Yep. But, if you like our governments current diet of pork. stick with the old way.

Oh yeah, read the book. If you want, I'll buy you a copy. The proceeds go to charity anyway.

"The one constant in all of your failed relationships is you."

Submitted by sageadvice on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:58am.

I am not sure what an indi dual is, but maybe it is the millions of point of sale places who are going to collect this 30% for the government and not keep a penny of it! Sure they are.
The government can't even collect all of the withholding from those employers now, even the ones who aren't illegal.
I just know knife swappers are going to send in their 30%!
I'm sure lawyers will also.

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:43am.

sageadvice is entitled to his opinion, and you are entitled to yours. What you are not entitled to to use vulgar expressions in your public responses. Please argue the facts with your interpretations and reserve your vulgarities for your personal conversations.

Locke's picture
Submitted by Locke on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:48am.

This is surfer putting forth his most intellectual argument.

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 10:03am.

with surferdude's intellectual capacity or lack thereof. I will of course respond to any and all blogs as I see fit. My concern is the use of personally derogatory epithets (and dated ones at that), and I have previously expressed this concern directly to The Citizen .

Locke's picture
Submitted by Locke on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 11:50am.

That is precisely what I was referring to.

Submitted by surferdude on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:06am.

eh? i can refer to him as a liberal douchebag if i want. if i want your opinion on something i will ask for it otherwise buttout

AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 11:22am.

A small mind behind a keyboard with bravery that rarely, if ever sees the light of day. Yes, you can use your profanity all you want until the thinking among us see you banned. Then you can go kick your kids, spit at your dog, and blame all of your short comings on "librals"

Kevin "Hack" King

Submitted by bssmstr1 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:29pm.

hahahaha, profanity?? retards I tell you.

Submitted by nelson00 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 10:16am.

Opps, why didn't I think of that???? We live in a very complicated world and the Fair Tax is the FIRST idea to come around in a long time that is simple, do-able and necessary....
Think about it.....no employers would have to pay taxes on payroll, therefore they could hire anyone they wanted to. And ANYONE/EVERYONE spending money would be taxed.....ALL THE SAME, ALL FAIRLY. What a concept.
All the taxes from SPENDING would cover all the social programs we have in place SEVERAL TIMES OVER. Oops, there goes the national debt...wow what a concept!
As for using unflattering language on this blog, perhaps the writer just doesn't have a very well developed vocabulary??????????

Submitted by surferdude on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 10:25am.

you don't understand. politicians like to complicate things and use political power to confiscate hard earned money from people that work and hand it over to people that dont work. they like to use that power to keep getting elected. the fair tax would take that power away from them and they would actually have to start accomplishing something.

AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 11:30am.

"....use political power to confiscate hard earned money from people that work and hand it over to people that dont work."

Hey, Albert Einstein! Do those "people that don't work" include the Department of Defense which is a somewhat substantial recipient of your hard earned and wrongly confiscated tax dollars? How do you remember to breath?

Kevin "Hack" King

Mike King's picture
Submitted by Mike King on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 12:10pm.

Haven't spoken to you for awhile and reading your posts during lunch I see that you are maintaining "the good fight." Hope that you and yours are well as I look forward to seeing you again.

After your flying days are done you just might have a future in talk radio. Hey, maybe we could start something at a local station for bloggers to call in and you could string them out a bit before the final coup-de-grace just for ratings,you know.

Have a great one!

Submitted by surferdude on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 11:36am.

no, but it does include welfare recipients like yo' mama

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 10:12pm.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with and challenging Hack’s political views.

But insulting his family especially his mother is way over the top.

Think about it.

Would you want someone insulting your family? You’re Mother?

Stick to the political arguments.


Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:31pm.

grade? What an idiotic thing to say.

Submitted by skyspy on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:28pm.

Are you one of the knuckleheads who had to start summer school this week??

After reading your posts, I'm guessing you are 10 or 11. You insult Kevins mom?? Dude that is so 5th grade of you....

They even teach the test and you knuckleheads can't get it right you have to go to summer school to be socially promoted to the next grade.

Good one..!

AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 11:46am.

My mother, I have no doubt, could buy a matching set of you, if, heaven forbid, you are a mistake that has occurred twice. Welcome back Beaver!

Kevin "Hack" King

Locke's picture
Submitted by Locke on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 2:18pm.

Investing 101: Don't buy depreciating assets.

Submitted by surferdude on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 1:09pm.

do you mean that she would own me like a master owns a slave?

Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:32pm.

is that if she could buy you for what you are worth, then sell you for what you think you are worth, she could solve our national debt problems.

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