PTC looking into lifting ‘brown bag’ ban

Fri, 05/16/2008 - 3:24pm
By: John Munford

Peachtree City staff will be looking into the possibility of lifting its recent ban on "brown bagging," which would allow residents to bring their own alcohol at local restaurants.

Resident Ric Hunt asked the City Council for the change Thursday night, saying he often likes to bring wine from his personal collection to local restaurants.

Hunt explained that the restaurants charge a corking fee since they aren't making profit from serving the alcohol he brings for himself. But some council members said they weren't sure brown bagging would be supported by local restaurants because they derive profits from selling their own alcohol.

Council directed staff to see if there's support from local restaurants before proceeding with a possible amendment to the ordinance that would allow brown bagging again.

City Attorney Ted Meeker said part of the reason historically to ban brown bagging was to prevent a potential incentive for a business such as a strip club to locate in Peachtree City.

Hunt said brown bagging is a very common practice in places such as California where he previously lived.

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Submitted by Sounder on Tue, 05/20/2008 - 8:19pm.

Mr. Hunt has it right, there are plenty of protections against the things that most people don't want. The laws of PTC have done so adequately for many, many years now.

But, the real unspoken issue is that there are certain individuals or entities that may prefer to restrict those that do not wish to pay thousands to the government for a license, but do not wish to disenfranchise the same customer base as those that do. If one really thinks this through one can easily see how either government itself (not as likely) or competitors (maybe) don't want to compete against an establishment that simply wants to allow every possible customer the freedom to enjoy the same privilege as a restaurant that pays for a license. As Mr. Hunt says there many legitimate reasons that some establishments may choose to not have full time liquor, beer, or wine service. And, many of those reasons should be applauded and welcomed.

Maybe we should remember that the most successful businesses (the Home Depot's of the world) and communities (too many to name) across our great nation are the ones that preserve the greatest number of choices to their citizens. Banning a choice that has zero negative impact (except on the businesses and citizens that lawfully wish to preserve choice and freedom to make said choice) seems not only unfair, but also another step down the path of restriction of other freedoms.

Last comment----there is always an unintended consequence to bans. It might not be apparent on the surface, but over the many years that brown bagging has been allowed in PTC none of the problems cited for eliminating it have occurred. However, attracting new corporations to a community is not an easy task. From a purely tax base and community stability standpoint one should consider how a restrictive community is perceived by those entities that the community may want to solicit to replace those corporations that have left our community over the years. Something else to think about...

Submitted by RicHunt on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 2:13pm.

It seems some people believe that Brown Bagging will lead to horrible things like strip clubs and uncontrolled drinking. If you read the text of the proposed new ordinance you will see that it has adequate safeguards to prevents such things from happening. Please read the text and the arguments for it before reaching any conclusions.

Proposed Brown Bag Ordinance:

Brown bagging, brown bag establishments.
(a) Except as provided herein, “brown bagging” and “brown bag establishments” as defined in this chapter shall be allowed within the city.
(b) Establishments that do not have a license to sell alcohol would be prohibited from “brown bagging”.
(c) It shall not be permissible to remove a partially consumed container unless that container can be re-sealed using the original cap or cork. If that container is placed in a vehicle, it must be placed in a location that is not accessible by passengers in that vehicle.

Why We Want This Change

The essence of government service to the community is to allow businesses and residents to coexist in a way that promotes quality of life and maximum choice of services while promoting safety, security and public welfare.

Laws or prescriptions by government entities that infringe on these principles should be reviewed and removed.

For at least the past 6 years, Peachtree City has allowed brown bagging to occur with appropriate restrictions that insure public welfare and safety. Last year this was changed to restrict businesses that serve the community of Peachtree City from allowing this service and reserving this privilege only for the government owned and operated Amphitheater.

Further, it is virtually impossible for restaurants to carry all of the alcoholic beverages that their customers may wish to consume due to inventory and cost constraints. It is common practice in many communities, (i.e. Atlanta, GA; Hilton Head, SC; many cities in FL, to allow customers to bring their own alcoholic beverages into restaurants. Many restaurants charge a small fee for this privilege to cover their costs in providing glassware, the cost of disposal of the empty containers and to compensate them for their revenue loss. Many of the fine dining establishments in Peachtree City were supportive of this policy. In there eyes, they want the customer to have a good experience and return often. If they are unable or unwilling to provide the libations that the customer desires, then they are happy to allow the customer to provide his own for a reasonable fee. It is in there best interest to support the customer. We feel this should be an issue between the restaurant owner and the customer, not something legislated by the City.

The section on removing a partially consumed container is designed to promote responsible alcohol consumption, regardless of whether it was purchased on premises or brought in. It is better to give someone a legal way to remove the container once they have consumed what they desire rather than being put in the position of consuming the whole thing so they don’t have to throw it away. Particularly if the bottle in question is expensive or was a gift.

The beverages that customers consume in most cases will have been purchased locally in City regulated liquor stores, grocery stores, or convenience stores generating additional sales tax revenue for the community.

Finally, when this action by the government was enacted it had the effect of restricting competition, limiting dining options for customers and reserving the right for the government to have a special exemption for the amphitheater it owns and operates. These restrictions infringe on business and personal freedoms that had previously existed and as such, for the reasons enumerated, we suggest are completely without merit. We ask that you support this change.

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 6:40pm.

That is a very good entry regarding the brown bagging ordinance. I have a confession to make: I was only trying to stir the pot up a bit. I like to do that sometimes. I do not drink alcohol any longer, plus I prefer my own cooking (and it shows). I do believe that wording should be added if the brown bag contains Ripple, MD 20/20, or Night Train: "throwing the empty bottle on the roof of the establishment and then going to sleep on a piece of cardboard is strictly prohibited".


Submitted by drgio on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 8:56am.

Is the current law our only way of preventing a strip club from opening? Wine afficiandos should have the opportunity to bring a nice bottle along. Seriously, how many PTC restuarants have a great wine collection? None.

John Giovanelli DC
www.drgio.com

carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 9:07am.

that can keep a strip club out should be kept in the arsenal.


Submitted by sageadvice on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 5:17pm.

What is it with you republicans when you now want government interference with business?

NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 9:40am.

The City of PTC has had an adult ordinance for a decade or so. Since it's considered unconstitutional to outright ban them as the state and US Supreme Court have ruled consistently, most cities with some foresight adopted ordinances regulating WHERE they can be located and other conditions like alcohol restrictions to discourage any from opening. It's OK to discourage, not OK to ban.

Here is the PTC ordinance on that specifically:
PTC Adult Entertainment Ordinance


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 10:05am.

I fail to understand why it wouldn't be okay to outright ban such a thing. Shouldn't a community get to decide unequivocally whether or not they want a certain business around? There have already been some poor decisions made regarding Peachtree City and what might be "best" for it, so it seems that brown bagging - if it increases the chances of a "gentlemen's club" being able to slither in through the back door - may very well be PTC's undoing.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 2:25pm.

That is who said you cannot place a ban on adult entertainment businesses. The ordinance that PTC adopted was modeled exactly after similar city ordinances that have withstood constitutional muster.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:13pm.

City Attorney Ted Meeker said part of the reason historically to ban brown bagging was to prevent a potential incentive for a business such as a strip club to locate in Peachtree City.

This alone is enough reason to keep the ban on brown bagging alcohol.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 9:49am.

The existing adult ordinance passed a decade ago ALREADY prohibits alcohol on the premises, whether it's brown bagged, sold, or whatever.
There is no effect on strip clubs/adult evenif brown-bagging is allowed elsewhere:

(a) It shall be unlawful for an owner, operator or manager of a sexually oriented business to knowingly allow the sale, dispersion or consumption of alcoholic beverages upon the premises, including all outdoor areas, of a sexually oriented business.
(b) It shall be unlawful for an owner, operator or manager of a sexually oriented business to knowingly allow any person, whether a patron, employee or otherwise, to bring any alcoholic beverage onto the premises of the sexually oriented business, including all outdoor areas.

It can't be any clearer than that.Glad to see our tax dollars wasted for on a city attorney who doesn't know the city's own existing ordinances. I'm not surprised whatsoever, even if this ordinance is right on the PTC website.

I don't have a dog in the fight over brown-bagging it or not as it doesn't directly affect me, but I'd like to see an informed discussion on the pro's and con's and not bogus information disseminated by people who are on the city payroll to give legal opinions based on fact, not sheer ignorance.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 9:59am.

are the legal arguments and reasonings. My take: more is better, keep the brown bagging ban.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 2:32pm.

These are two separate issues and the strip club part is already addressed in an existing ordinance. A strip club could always decide to open without alcohol/brown bagging regardless, which is the whole purpose of the existing ordinance. Under the ordinance, that would mean the could operate in a small area in the industrial park.


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:25pm.

Strip clubs can be a true asset to any community. Think of mom and one of PTC's 42 parks. Any strip club in town couldn't be located too far away from one of those. Mom drops off the kids at the park in her golf cart, then goes to work to make a couple of bucks. Good for quality of life/supplemental income. PLus, the kids get to see a good example of what not to be when they grow up. Kinda like those horrible fiery crashes they used to show in driver's ed. The wrecked shells of the men frequenting the clubs would be etched upon the minds of little Johnny and Susie at the park stumbling up and down the sidewalk, looking over their shoulders to make sure no-one knows them. Besides all of that, just imagine all the extra taxes the city/county could take in.


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:45pm.

I am all for it! Peachtree City is already eerily similar to something out of the Stepford Wives. It is an excellent size, lay-out and location for a large-scale experiment in social engineering. I vote that we turn Peachtree City into a giant "Scared Straight" program. We'll bring in ultra conservative, fundamentalist groups/schools for basic mind control and guilt-implantation and then next door slap up rows of "gentlemen's clubs". Just to see what would happen.


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:49pm.

We could also have one street in town where all of the churches must be located. Think of the fun in watching the interactions between all of the different faiths, and different denominations. It could be a reality T.V. show. I vote to make it a Cul-de-Sac.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:55pm.

WE ARE PEACHTREE CITY KEEP IT DECENT AND PEACEFUL COLLECTIVE MIND. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:01pm.

Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits
On a lurgid bee.
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes
And hooptiously drangle me
With crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
See if I don't!


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:10pm.

THE "JAM, NOT JELLY" SOLILOQUY WILL NOT PREVENT YOUR ASSIMILATION BY THE COLLECTIVE MIND.


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:27pm.

I'm not listening! I'm not listening!
"Hydrogen. Helium. Lithium. Beryllium. Boron. Carbon(unit52). Nitrogen. Oxygen!!! Fluorine!!! NEON!!! SODIUM!!! MAGNESIUM!!!"


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:14pm.

THE ANT PILE IS NOT BETTERED BY THE OPINIONS OF ONE. WE MUST ALL WEAR GAP AND DRIVE LEXUS. ALL THOUGHTS MUST BE OF THE COLLECTIVE MIND. ALL WORK MUST BE DONE TO PRESERVE THE COLONY.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:17pm.

DOUBLE OH DUDE OF NATURE.


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:23pm.

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE, TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATE OF INTOLERANCE. AND TO THE DISTURBANCE, WHICH IT CAUSES, I WILL NOT FALTER TO DEFEND. OUTSIDERS HERE, ARE NOT WELCOME, AND CANNOT BE REHABILITATED. ONE CITY, UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR THOSE WHO THINK SIMILARLY.


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:30pm.

ROFLMAO.


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:59pm.

I.... Must.....Moooove!


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:51pm.

"Abomination Avenue" -- where the strip clubs and brown bagging restaurants will be built.


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:54pm.

Perhaps these two busy streets could be built directly off of another busy street in town to exacerbate the traffic flow problem.


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:58pm.

that we have more than one lake, we could just fill one of them in with concrete and build right on top of it. I'm not sure I see what purpose the library would serve anymore, either, so that whole area could be put to good use. That deals with traffic as well. Big lake, more than enough room for a few streets and parking lots.


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:01pm.

Is it possible we could burn all the books?....Please?


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:04pm.

Only the ones that say things like "ass", "damn" and "turd".

And everything written by Mark Twain, of course.

Oh, and Harry Potter. Naturally we will burn Harry Potter because he worships the devil.


Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:11pm.

I don't believe I can speak with you anymore after the language used in that last post. Completely un-called for, and most likely a crime against the state. I think it would be beneficial to both of us to not mention this dialog again.


simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:14pm.

Crap, boobs, crap!


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 1:02pm.

I guess you didn't like Reagan since you've never seen or heard of anything good out of California. Anyways, it's done in other states and cities not on the left coast too.

Here's another reason: a bottle of wine at a grocery or liquor store that costs $10 magically costs $25 in a restaurant. Also, you're at the mercy of whatever that restaurant happens to have on hand. Third, the state just passed legislation to allow people to cork wine they purchased in restaurants and take it home without violating the open container laws, so the consumer isn't forced to either leave leftover wine or guzzle it before driving. Somewhat enlightened thinking, a rarity in the GA legislation.


Submitted by itcouldhappen on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 8:44am.

The last sentence says it all. There are very few "common" practices in places such as California that we need here in Fayette County. If you want to drink your own wine, cook your own food. If people start bringing their own alcohol with them, there will be no one responsible for discontinuing the service to those who have had too much to drink. The rest of us will then be subject to drunks in resturants. High class or whatever ... a drunk is still a drunk.

simpleton's picture
Submitted by simpleton on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 11:38am.

that bringing your own alcohol to a restaurant will cause you to drink more alcohol than you would at a restaurant that serves it? I am not sure.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 1:03pm.

but that doesn't stop neo-prohibitionists and Big Brother-lovers from making up crap and calling it a "fact" with no proof whatsoever.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:10am.

We might as well add this as yet another revelation about the "true character" of muddle.

I have been furtively brown bagging for years. Indeed, I have brown bagged at work. Given the fact that brown bagging appears to be illegal, this, in itself, would have been sufficient for termination.

My wife has usually thought to include an apple or a banana in the brown bag along with my sandwich. Often there has been a note: "I love you and hope you have a nice day. Can't wait until you come home."

One time she even included this note: "This brown bag doubles as a handy dandy hand puppet." Sure enough, when I checked, I found that she had drawn a face on the brown bag so that, when slipped onto a hand, it would come to life. That way, I didn't have to dine alone.

I'm still trying to figure out why this is illegal.


Submitted by Sick of Fascists on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 9:06pm.

Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humor.
RFLOL!

Submitted by sageadvice on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 12:08pm.

Well, you see muddle the same person who totes a pistola where everyone can see it, or at least flashes it several times, is the same guy who brings a bottle with a French label on it to a restaurant.
Now, he has filled that same bottle numerous times with ripple, the same kind Fred Sanford used to drink, but who knows? He also leavs a $22 tip for the waitress, but makes sure everyone sees him and those who don't, he tells loudly.
There is a time between blue collar brown bagging and white collar, $15 lunches where one must decide just who they are, or want to be!
You can tell a lot about such people.

Naturedude's picture
Submitted by Naturedude on Sat, 05/17/2008 - 10:09am.

I've been brown bagging for years also. Usually when I can find just enough change. I don't do it purposely, but the containers I purchase just usually include the bag. I've found that, over time, I've also been able to stitch together a nice overcoat out of the bags, and the containers have come together nicely as a xylophone. Playing my xylophone has made it much easier to purchase more containers. I never thought that these bags could become illegal! Such a law would go a long way to ruin my life, and make it virtually impossible to keep up with all the repairs I'm constantly needing to make to my overcoat.


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