PLO / Israel

wulfman's picture

Do you agree or disagree with this statement.

Do not deal with the PLO until and unless the PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist

Simple yes or no will do.

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Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 1:16pm.

that says he or she will conduct a dialogue with Hamas and I'll show you the one that will lose the election. There are hundreds of political "third rails" and this is one of them. Both Obama and Hillary's web sites really go heavy on pandering for the support of Israel vote. (in fact, there's really not much difference between the two.) McCain....well his site doesn't really acknowledge it. I suspect he will not openly say he would have direct talks.

I would imagine that this might be a point of disagreement between President Carter and Obama. Perhaps if Obama would win maybe he would have direct dialogue but, that would be a campaign promise broken.

The pro-Israeli special interest groups are very powerful politically.
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sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 11:35am.

Kind of a moot question isn't it? Given that the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in 1993.

Now if you are referring to Hamas, I disagree. That sort of pre-condition plays well with the hometown folks, but is counterproductive to real negotiating. I realize that Barack Obama has made Hamas' recognition of Israel part of his foreign policy platform, and I think it's a mistake.
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Diagnosing Denise


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 12:02pm.

I already knew that Arafat sent a letter to Rabin in 1993.

Just asking for your opinion of the statement.

Do you agree or disagree?


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 11:33am.

Israel opposed the holding of the Palestinian elections as did Fatah. The US insisted that the elections be held over strenuous Israeli objections. After Hamas won, Condi and the rest of the Bush administration were shocked. Why? Because everybody in the State Department is barred by law from meeting with Hamas members and therefore are ignorant to the detriment of the United States’ foreign policy. They should “deal” with Hamas to the extent that they should not be willfully blind about what’s going on.

The "don't talk to Hamas" position is analogous to the administration's "don't talk to North Korea". The North Koreans showed they were just fine with not being talked to and proceeded to develop nuclear weapons. At least the administration remained ideologically pure. Incredibly stupid but ideologically pure.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 1:32pm.

What would be gained if we had direct talks with Hamas and Israel did not? In the long run, the things the Palestinians need for establishing a homeland and a government are things the Israels cannot or will not let happen.
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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 2:15pm.

An honest broker is needed acceptable to both sides. The US used to fill that role not but any longer. Maybe a new administration will be willing to try.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 2:50pm.

Do we blame Truman to put us in a position of not being an honest broker. It seems like the CIA noted that as an issue back in '47.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.


Main Stream's picture
Submitted by Main Stream on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 12:00pm.

"The US insisted that the elections be held over strenuous Israeli objections. After Hamas won, Condi and the rest of the Bush administration were shocked."

I remember that. There was total shock in the White House and Hamas was so grateful to Bush and the neocons. So, instead of folks currently taking jabs at Obama regarding Hamas, the reality is that Bush has been Hamas' best friend all along.

btw - Bush and company plotted to overthrow Hamas after the elections:

"The Bush administration, caught out by the rise of Hamas, embarked on a secret project for the armed overthrow of the Islamist government in Gaza."

"...President George Bush and the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, signed off on a plan for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to remove the Hamas authorities in Gaza. The plan called for Washington's allies in the region to funnel arms and salaries to Fatah fighters who would lead a rising against Hamas."

US PLOT TO OVERTHROW HAMAS


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 11:57am.

It was hardly under the Bush admin that North Korea became a problem since NK was enriching uranium as far back as the early 1990's.

The 1990's was nothing but talking to North Korea and the IAEA being not allowed to do any inspections despite the worldwide suspicion that North Korea was trying to develop nukes. North Korea agreed and then withdrew from a 1994 agreement to freeze plutonium production and allow inspections. It got to the point that talking to those lunatics one-on-one was a waste of time, as were all the sanctions the UN imposed. It was only until talking to the two countries that solely keep N. Korea's government in existence-China and South Korea-did anything start to happen on the diplomatic front.

I'm not sure that you can talk and use diplomacy directly on mentally unstable people who are psychopaths. following the money/power and talking to those people works a lot better.


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 2:12pm.

I don’t think so. The Bush administration formally announced it was withdrawing from the 1994 Agreed Framework on October 20, 2002. A month later, in December 2002, the North Koreans expelled the international weapons inspectors, restarted the nuclear reactor at Yongbyon and broke the seals on the fuel rods containers. From 1994 until December 2002 the North’s plutonium in the fuel rods was sealed and under the purview of the IAEA. The nuclear weapons were made from the reprocessed fuel rods. The uranium enrichment program was small and insignificant (details of which are to be released very soon by the Bush administration negotiators). In any event, the technical difficulties with enriching uranium would have taken the North decades to overcome as opposed to reprocessing the plutonium in the fuel rods.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 3:04pm.

North Korea and Pakistan had swapped technologies in post-Agreed that violated the uranium enrichment prohibition of that agreement. Between that and test firing an ICBM over Japan, and then admitting they had a secret nuke program only to later say "just kidding," I can understand why Cheney, err....Bush..withdrew from the agreement, as well as the fact that NK had already had a few nukes' worth of plutonium.

Now, the million dollar question is whether or not the info in 2002 from I believe the CIA concerning whether NK was in fact heavily involved in uranium enrichment is another question, but at that time the US was still actively having one-on-one talks with NK and supposedly the US ambassador was told by NK that they were pursuing uranium enrichment tech. Then it became a PR war of words with NK's typical crazed posturing and threats to the point that the Agreed fell apart.


carbonunit52's picture
Submitted by carbonunit52 on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 11:19am.

Hamas has not.
Details, details.
Yes, deal with Hamas as the lawfully elected representitives of the Palestinian people.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Mon, 04/28/2008 - 11:32am.

Should those dealings be similar to how the US "dealt" with the lawfully elected Milosevic of Serbia/Yugoslavia?


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