Muddle did you see the actual clip where Obama talked about this? I posted it below.

Far from being "offended" the people in the crowd in Pennsylvania were cheering.

I think what drives the opposition crazy is that Barack Obama is a rarity: He talks to people as if they were adults.

This does not sit well with people who prefer "bumper sticker ideology" and have their opinions spoon-fed to them by hate radio and Fox Noose.
___________
Diagnosing Denise

I've listened to both the fundraising clip in SF where he said it and the explanation speech afterwards, and I really don't see the big deal. First off, I agree with what Obama said, even if it "sounds" elitist and so forth. Maybe it is. So what? A lot of voters really don't want their next door neighbor or the guy who works at the lumber mill as President. They'd like to think they are voting for the better than average or "ordinary." The voters who are saying they were offended weren't ever going to vote for Obama anyway.

Shillary and crew are of course trying to gain some political capital from it, but the idea that Hillary Frickin' Clinton understands the "common man" better than Obama(or most people) is a total joke. I'm not an Obama fan, but he definitely has a lot more cred on the subject of the ordinary working-class than Clinton. One was raised by a single mother and the other has had everything+more handed to them(or stolen for them) their entire life. She is just making herself look more and more desperate and obsessed, characteristics that don't appeal to a lot of voters.

"I genuinely distrust and dislike the man."

Don't read more into this than is here, but do you "trust" Hillary or John McCain?

The Two John McCains

I'm just trying to figure out what determines which misstatements weigh more than others. What causes you to equate Barack Obama to prostate cancer? Maybe I've been reading you a bit wrong, but I don't quite make the connection

Cheers, and good luck with that cancer

Kevin "Hack" King

I hate backpeddling.

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

If the majority of folks on The Citizen are swinging at you, you are doing something right. They have a republican candidate that they give loathing support. The country is, in its enthusiasm for our candidates, rejecting the brand of conservatism that is prominent here in Fayette County. Imagine everyone shopping at the store next to yours, no matter how many banners you put up; no matter how many times you say that other store's products are defective; no matter how cheap you say your product is; heck, you can even offer customers cash back, but they still stream into the Obama store. That has to be quite jarring for "no matter what" republicans. Even my dear Muddle is comparing Barack's potential presidency to prostate cancer?! I believe our soldiers stuck babysitting Iraq, those who have said on camera that they support Barack, can't wait to receive that positive Barack diagnosis in November.

Cheers, and give these folks their time to grieve. It will be long and drawn out, EVEN IF McCAIN WINS!

Kevin "Hack" King

Misspoken"? You have jumped head over heals on anyone about ...RACE... which seems to be your only and favorite subject...you twist and twine...when people call your hand at it...but you are without a doubt ...THE MOST RACIST THING THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING TO... Why they carry on a conversation with you is not imaginable in my book. Obama, who ever he is...I have only read..ONE...book on his butt...is someone who I feel comes from degenerates...his Mama...was trying to prove something hooking up with...I say that cause he didn't marry her worthless butt... and he then told her that there wasn't ..room? for them at Harvard where ..HE..ALONE...WAS GOING? He then hooks up with another white that he took to Africa and beat her butt daily? Mama though, runs of to Maliza...or some God knows what with an Oriental and then sends Obama packing for Hawaii where he is raised by his white grandparents...I'M SORRY...BUT THIS GUY AINT THE BLACK HERO ...HE HAS BAD GENES ALL AROUND...IT IS ONE THING TO HAVE BAD PARENTS AND NOT KNOW WHAT YOU WANT CAUSE YOU NEVER HAD AN EXPAMPLE..AND YOU JUST KNOW THEY ARE WHAT YOU NEVER WANT TO BE...A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE COME OUT OK CAUSE THEY AT LEAST HAVE A BLUE PRINT FOR WHAT THEY DONT WANT TO BE .BUT HE IS OVER THE TOP...I DON'T LIKE HIS WANT TO BE BLACK PANTHER..IF ONLY HE COULD FIND THEM ATTITUDE...DAVIDS MOM..LET ME TELL YOU...HIS GENES ARE FROM A SEST POOL...AND FOR HIS MIND TO BE RIGHT ...IT IS LIKE A JACKASS WINNING THE KENTUCKY DERBY!..just my thoughts.

Bronze medal: Spittle flecked oratory
Silver medal: Long run-on sentences (3 "butts" in one!)
Gold medal: "SEST POOL"!
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Diagnosing Denise

Classy response. Thanks.

I looked and looked for where David'smom brought up race above. I couldn't find it; just wasn't there. I do see you blowing an O ring because she dared relate factual information that Barack is closing on Hillary in PA, even with the ole "bitter" speech. It seems like Baracks' "bitter" comments hit pretty close to home, eh? Let me bring up race in a relevant since. I have watched four Barack speeches AFTER the "bitter" rural folks speech, and I saw halls of white and black folks alike who seemed to "get" what he was saying. At the Religious forum just tonight, Barack got a reception that was more than warm, from a majority white crowd. What don't they get backseatofthecarpromprincess?

"HIS GENES ARE FROM A SEST POOL...AND FOR HIS MIND TO BE RIGHT ...IT IS LIKE A JACKASS WINNING THE KENTUCKY DERBY!..just my thoughts."

Ummm.... tailbedpromprincess, a mind is a terrible thing, and it must be stopped... in our lifetime.

Kevin "Hack" King

Obama Speaking:

Now my opponents are asking voters to examine "Where Each Candidate Stands On The Issues......

I and David's Mom will, of course, RISE ABOVE that kind of DIVISIVE RHETORIC.

The people that are against Obama needs to get quiet. Why should we get quiet?

It's funny the liberal media can't get the number right. On one station they said Hillary was ahead in Pennsylvania and one said Obama was.

Obama thinks some of us are stupid and can't read between the lines, the next stop he tried to justify what he said. What a laugh. Obama knew he stuck his foot in his mouth.

I'm not going to keep quiet until he cuts ties from BLT.

If he becomes President I will pray for him. I asked Hack and did not get an answer. Do you pray for President George W. Bush?

Have a nice day.

_______________________________
We Will Stand

When I hit "preview comments" it just dissappeared! Anyway, I'll shorten it a bit.

I like you.

I like George Bush. I have said that before. I believe he is a great dad and husband. I'd love to barbeque with him and his family. I work with a majority of people who are republicans with guns and strong opinions. The man who has taught me more Jiu jitsu than anyone, 7th degree black belt James "Venom" Gifford, can't stand liberalism; hates it. At 6'3" and 240 LBS, I have become very used to defending my words as well as my body, against men who love me but don't care for my party.

That's how I feel about our Commander in Chief. If he had me write his OPR (performance report), it would not read well at all; but that isn't personal.

Results matter. A pilot, especially, won't give someone the impression they are doing a good job if they are not. The stakes are too high. I pray for our president. I've prayed for you. I have prayed for River, Sniffles, Muddle, Jeff C,and Denise and I feel I owe her a huge, teary-eyed bear hug. I pray for myself daily 'cause I need it. I was in church today (yesterday?) thinking of the words I have exchanged on here over the weekend. I believe in the power of prayer (even for Mainstream types that might not want it).

I also believe in decisions and results. That is why I am critical of our President. I believe these decisions below have been tragic failures:

1) Allowing the Department of Justice to become a political force as opposed to a force of BLIND justice.

2) Believing that a Christian country could take its Army into a Muslim country and solve their political and ethnic problems (that's my main beef with Hillary as well).

3) Hiring incompetent people based on loyalty and not demonstrated performance (Brown at FEMA, Bremmer in Iraq, Myers and Gonzales in their legal counsil, Bolten at the UN, Karl Rove, who used politics to divide America to win elections until it failed in 2006).

4) allowing torture, rendition, and having torture meetings in the White House to go over techniques to use on detained human beings.

I will never forget my President of the United States saying, in 2005, that "A vote for the Democrat party is a vote for the terrorists." Yes, as we fight to bring democracy to Iraq, he dared to compare supporting the other half of American politics to supporting terrorists. I'd definitely bring that up at the barbeque . good night, and hope this answers your question.

Kevin "Hack" King

Wow! You've been gone too long. Who's been using your log-in to post?

"a Christian country" -- Can I quote you on that?

If you hit BACK, you can get your post back sometimes. Preview often because, if you haven't put the comments in the preview section, then there won't be anything there when you go back a page. Use a separate tab to refresh your log-in before you hit "preview." You can be listed as online but be logged out for posting.

Thanks

Kevin "Hack" King

The people that are against Obama needs to get quiet. Why should we get quiet?

Because the more you attempt to use 'questionable' points - the higher his ratings. On second thought - keep on talking!!

I answered your question regarding 'prayer'. I pray for all mankind daily. . .as I said before. Sorry I ruffled your feathers. Keep on talking - by all means.

"I think those against Barack need to get quiet for a while."

How do you define "swiftboating"?

A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins. - Benjamin Franklin

___________________________

8-week fetus ("young one") -- Only 30-32 more weeks to go!

“Women who are experiencing an unplanned pregnancy also deserve unplanned joy.” (Feminists for Life)

It's helping McCain right now. His poll numbers have been heading upward as he's sort of stayed out of the fray, wading in for a comment or two here and there, then back out of the limelight while the Dems self-destruct their own party as usual.

Clinton is old-school politics and both her and husband are now dated. Their sell-by dates are expired. What is hurting Clinton the most isn't attacking Obama; it's making up hysterical lies like the Bosnia story that she had told several times before getting nailed on it and her generally unlikeable personality that comes across frequently. She also wants it so bad that people are rightfully a little concerned. Let's face it...the job really sucks and anyone who has wanted it since about the time the umbilical chord was cut is someone to be a bit wary of. She's scary.

Obama gives a great speech and also knows how to talk about controversial subjects without setting off hysteria about "I can't believe he said that!!!" He phrases the topics well and says what a lot of people think but only tell their own group of friends/neighbors/etc. what he said about some Pennsylvania voters and that mentality was dead-on accurate. It's also reminded me of something a repub would say because it's pretty cynical but true. Obama managed to say it in a way that made it sound "understanding" as opposed to "judgmental." Of course, nothing he nor Shillary or McCain do is going to bring well-paying unskilled labor jobs back to the rsut belt, but he makes them believe the perception that things will be better. That's powerful and very effective speaking. I don't think he can do the job of President nor do I think he'll come even close to winning it this year, but he can definitely bring a lot to American politics. He already has.

I do think that Obama is handling 'controversy' well - and I agree, he has a way of 'telling it like it is' with class. So much has happened in this election that has amazed me - that I'm not predicting the outcome at this point. I'm amazed at the surge in voter registration - especially among democrats. I agree - this young man - Obama - has brought a fresh outlook to American politics. I have been a Hillary supporter for years - and supported her financially in her run for the New York senate - but I'm shocked at the incompetence of her campaign! I don't think she has the stuff that she thinks she has. I always wondered what happened with Universal Health Care when she had an office in the West Wing - and all the support in the world to get that through! She is not a uniter. I think Obama and McCain are uniters - but with the present economy and trade situations, I'm hearing some dyed in the wool republicans saying 4 more years of Bush politics under McCain would be disastrous. This race is close right now. We'll see what the future brings.

I noticed two JeffC comments back to back did one forget the little c?

I am sad I had to take me "Hope Changes Everything" because Obama does not believe in the same Hope that I do- I don't want to support his Hope.

_______________________________
We Will Stand

"JeffC" & "Jeffc" & J.C. $niffle$

HOPEfully, people will wake up from their swoon and find out what's behind the pretty face, and that's not pretty at all.

He must have stayed up all night. His buddies will help him out soon.

Have a nice day.

_______________________________
We Will Stand

Wishing that Barack can be tarred by you associating him with Marx is silly Denise. At least grasp for the edges of reality. Is there a shred of evidence anywhere to support your "mentor" comment or do you think we just don't notice or care when you just make stuff up?

Silly? I'm serious. I'm NOT dazed. Those are the B-HO fans.

Hack says, "Obama stickers EVERYWHERE!"

"Obama’s Communist Mentor" (Frank Marshall Davis)

"Obama Once Visited '60s Radicals" (William Ayers and the Weather Underground terrorists)

Obama: "the best thing since sliced bread"

"Obama Office Adores Psychotic Marxist Thug" Che Guevara

"Che Guevara Connection in Obama Camp"

"Barack Obama Lauded by Marxists"

"Latin American Communists Back Obama" (Nicaraguan leader Daniel Ortega, the head of the Marxist Sandinista Liberation Front)

"Marxist Terrorists Say Obama Will Help Them" (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, Castro, Ortega)

"Barack Obama Is Just Another Liberal" -- Hedged Rhetoric, Supporting Socialism

"Obama Turns Two Faces to America"

"Obama’s Marxist Liberation Theology Church" Excerpt

"The best lie is a little pig that’s always hidden between several fluffy layers of truth and covered with a lot of lipstick and charisma."

1. Liberation Theology has it[s] center of power in Latin America and in African Theology, but is found in many Christian denominations throughout the Third World.

2. Liberation Theology is a new interpretation of Christian reality.

3. Liberation Theology is radically Marxist.

“The world must be interpreted in terms of the class struggle and that the only choice is between capitalism and Marxism.” -- Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)

4. Liberation Theology thrives on perpetuating class struggle. The only people of the Church are those who participate in class struggle.

5. Liberation Theology is a theology of bloody political revolution. All of Christian reality is reduced to politico-social liberation praxis (action).

6. Liberation Theology rejects traditional scriptural interpretations.

“The experience of the 'community' determines the understanding and the interpretation of Scripture.... Ultimately, what is normative for interpretation is not historical research but the hermeneutic of history experienced in the community or the political group.”

7. Liberation Theology makes the Bible subject to a Marxist view of history.

“The 'historicality' of the Bible must justify its absolute dominance and thus legitimize the transition to materialist-marxist philosophy, in which history has taken over the role of God.... Historical criticism has loosed Scripture from the traditional interpretation, which now appears to be unscientific."

8. Liberation Theology is a threat to the faith of the Christian Church.

"Liberation Theology"

Can't watch the links on this sloooooooooooow connection. Maybe later. Obama's church is not a Liberation Theology church. Maybe if you say so often enough you can convince people. Hey, go for it. The truth is irrelevant. Also, I saw the Che poster. It was in a volunteers house not an Obama office but, like I said, the truth is irrelevant, so go for it. If he can't fight slanders and slurs like yours he doesn't deserve to be President. God help us if an election in the US was decided on issues instead of items of monumental importance to America and America's standing and authority in world affairs like the opinions of members of Obama's church.

Gees Jeff,

Your comments about the foreign presses pantie raid party at the Obama campaign headquarters tells me a bit more about you.

You libs, seem to really want the world's approval. You swoon thinking that the world will now respect America in some manner because your savior is going to be able to UNITE us all with the least amount of experience to be President, coupled with the most liberal voting record since, well, your dad. (Although, I think thats a stretch too.)

Remember Jeff, the world's opinion of your father, reflects the world's opinion of Barack. I dare say, we have competing interests with what the World wants for America. When are the liberals ever going to figure that out?

I'm in Palestine, the foreign press is all I'm getting. We've picked up from FOX that there is some controversy about our trip. I'm looking forward to straightening it out for y'all when I get back. I swear its a chore to watch FOX, they cannot seem to get anything right. I saw FOX and Friends for the first time a couple of nights ago. Some bubble headed bleached blond and two dimwits both dumber than dirt. Pitiful, really. They seemed like government educated high schoolers with their limited grasp of issues. How do you watch that stuff?

Good press here: http://www.thecitizen.com/~citizen0/node/27274

Polls show support for our position at an astonishing 65%.

BTW, Richard, the latest world opinion poll I saw as of Feb 08 showed Dad in the top five most admired people in the world.

I'm going to try to blog from Damascus so that all of you will be tagged terrorists and investigated. Cal's gonna be really mad when the internal police from Homeland Security seize his newspaper for having a channel to a terrorist state.

Lots and lots of support for Clinton in Israel. Very little for Barack and none for McCain. Go Figure... I would have guessed that McCain, representing the third term of the lap dog Bush administration, would be number one but apparently not. Shows what I know.

Off to Egypt tomorrow; back in a week or two. Lots to blog about if anybody's interested.

FOX has a "babes" corral in the back.
To get on the air you must first have long legs and like to show them, then you must be willing to be indoctrinated with the Aussie's doctrine,
then you must learn to act like you know something when you really don't.
The republican slant is so obvious it is downright crazy. How do they get people to do this stuff? Money, or a promise of a spread in Playboy or Hustler. I know they pay the boys well to have them say stuff.

Safe travels to you and your family over there. I saw some blurb about Israel not wanting to provide security for Carter while he's traveling there. Here's a link:

CARTER SECURITY GLITCH

Please keep us updated on your travels and also world opinion... It's always good to hear a new perspective, other than the reporting from Fox/CNN and The Citizen.

Jeff, did you have to dodge sniper fire after you landed?

...the latest world opinion poll I saw as of Feb 08 showed Dad in the top five most admired people in the world.
Jeff, your dad was Governor of Georgia and President of the U.S.--not the world. I'd be more concerned about what people here think of his associations today.

If you blog from Damascus, be prepared to be waterboarded when you get back.

Well, I didn't get to the phone in time to give my opinion, therefore your World Opinion Poll putting your father up there with other admired individuals, is sadly inaccurate. The weight of my single opinion would have knocked him out of the top 5 easily.

You say the Jews are not all that excited about Barack, gees, I wonder why? I wonder, hmmmm, who all of Arabs are interested in? Let me think? Why not fill us in? Who are the terrorists in Syria rooting for in the Election? hmmmm. What about your dad's friends in the Hamas?

I can't wait until Barack hosts his first State Dinner at the White House. He can have your father there, who will introduce him to the Iranian, Syrian, North Korean, and Hamas leaders, since your dad is intimate with all of them.

"I can't wait until Barack hosts his first State Dinner at the White House. He can have your father there, who will introduce him to the Iranian, Syrian, North Korean, and Hamas leaders, since your dad is intimate with all of them."

Do yo think Jimmy C. or Barack would have let a plane full of Bin Ladens leave, AFTER 9/11, as all of OUR commercial planes were GROUNDED?

Kevin "Hack" King

What city are you in?
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Ramallah, Palestine (on the wrong side of the Wall).

Jerusalem tonight, Cairo tomorrow, then Damascus, Syria on Thursday. Many stories when I get back if anybody is interested.

Very much interested. Tired of Abortion, religions, and local politics blogs.
That is the area of the world where we have had over 7000 years of solid fighting, and maybe for 7000 more.

We should have stayed out of there except for Kuwait.

last January. Snow was everywhere.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

She is just using "tough love." The same "tough love" christiany and *conservative Denise uses towards women who have been forced to carry deceased babies in their wombs and the same "tough love" she uses to berate veterans, mentally challenged, and PTSDed folks who "choose" to be homeless. She is mostly writing for herself.

As you see the record numbers of people LEAVING the Republican party, and as you read their testimonials, I would think that you would encourage Denise to poor it on extra thick as she and Beaver sing in off-key unison.

Did you see where Barack actually admitted his words were ill chosen? Can you imagine a president that admits mistakes? I don't believe "doctor denise" knows what such admissions are.

Oh, and BPR is just BPR. Don't try to read for comprehension.

Cheers, and hurry home

Kevin "Hack" King

As you see the record numbers of people LEAVING the Republican party,

We may LEAVING the Republican party, but we ain't giving up on life and becoming Democrats.

Did you see where Barack actually admitted his words were ill chosen?

Uhhh... Kind of like my kids when they get nailed for being their own irresponsible selves? And kind of like the Reved-up Wright admitting his words were ill chosen. Heh, heh, heh.... I thought you would enjoy me tossing that one in there.

Obama Hussein says: "It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Guilty as Git! Cept I cling to many several other Mom and apple pie issues that made this country great, yet they are disappearing as rapidly as Hack's dollars at a Starbucks.

________

The Sissy And The Word Defined

Hack is upset that we are showing Obama true colors- hey Obama chose this we didn't tell him to do it.

Keep up the good work.

Hack never answered my question if he prays for President George W. Bush like the bible instucts us to.

_______________________________
We Will Stand

I watched the piece, thinking at first that it was supposed to be the event where he made the original comments. It isn't--and you hint as much with the word "commentary."

The original remarks may be heard here:

Obama Ticks Off John Cougar Mellencamp

His rhetoric is certainly more guarded in the "commentary" in which his main objective is to do a bit of damage control. I see the applause as he works through the points. When he offers the original remarks (of which I have only heard audio) there is sympathetic laughter as he jokes about skepticism over a black candidate named Obama. I'm not sure how to account for the applause, etc.

One assessment involves this observation: What do you expect from a bunch of small town, gun-toting, bigoted religious zealots? They likely did not understand a word he was saying and applausded so they would look good on TV.

But here is my problem with both the original remarks and his commentary.

He is actually saying that the religious, moral and political beliefs of these people is to be explained by their miserable economic situation and either the unwillingness or the inability of the government to help them out.

Thus, we are offered, in general, a social science (a blend of psychology and socio-economics) explanation for deeply held beliefs and ultimate commitments.

This is indeed condescending and insulting. It is the equivalent of saying, "Your religion is a crutch for you" or "You oppose gun control because of your paranoia over the possibility of an Orwellian government." But plenty of people hold their religious beliefs simply because they take them to be true. And many or most NRA types will talk about constitutional rights when you ask them why they "cling to their guns." Social science explanations tend to be "explainings away" of a person's beliefs that one regards as false.

His remarks imply the flip side: Place people in better economic circumstances and give them a government that shows that it cares about their plight and such attitudes and beliefs do not arise.

There is at least a hint of utopian thinking in this speech, and the external arrangements that seem important to him are chiefly economic. That all sounds hauntingly familiar.

I got from the international press. IHT and BBC were reporting the story as Obama speaking to the US citizens as adults and it was Hillary and McCain pandering with platitudes. Then after being attacked, Obama came back and blasted them both again instead of crumbling. Its being portrayed as Obama showing leadership, taking control of an issue, treating voters like intelligent adults and swaying people with his strong retoric. Maybe thats why thebeav missed it. I saw some BBC video where the story was at the start of Obama's remarks everybody was quiet and by the end people were standing and cheering. The reporters thought it was remarkable. Bring it on!

Worth repeating:

I have been amazed at the "we hate your candidates more than we hate ours" crowd. Remember when the "moral majority" was actually swooning over Giuliani? Then they saw what the rest of the country's conservatives thought of him. They then tried to wrestle with Romney's Mormonism, because at least he was currently talking like a conservative. Then the national republican party handed them McCain. Ohhh boy! I don't mind being called "hard core liberal" by people who say Bush isn't a conservative and McCain is too liberal.
Our local republicans are very unique (those that will at least claim their party). They see us as two boats getting further and further apart. They KNOW that you and I are drifting hopelessly left. But then, they look down, and see that their anchor has been out of the water for seven plus years now! rut rooo! Maybe they are drifting right, away from even their national party. But how can we know who is moving? This might help:

Pennsylvania has just set a record for new registered voters; the record numbers are:

1) total number of democrats and
2) Number of Republicans who have SWITCHED their party affiliation

North Carolina has just seen a RECORD in new registered voters for a presidential primary. The record? DEMOCRATIC registered voters.

The US Armed Forces in 2000 supported repubs over dems 77% to 23% (USA Today)

Today, that support for all political offices is 59% republican and 40% democrat.

For the office of president, RON PAUL and BARACK OBAMA still lead ALL other candidates, even John McSame, in presidential campaign donations.

USA Today reported that independent groups have spent the following to date:
Pro democrat: $14.5 million
Pro republican: $726,000
Anti dem: $1.6 million
Anti repub: $471,000

Yes! Bring it on!

Kevin "Hack" King

Thanks for the link sniffles. I downloaded it for a while before I could watch but did see it all. If someone thinks that Obama didn't knock that one out of the park they are IMHO nuts. This is controversial for Obama? Wow, somebody is seriously out of touch with political reality here and I don't think its me and Barack. He's going to use this to win Penn.

Mark Morford of the SF Chronicle has written an interesting article that explains why many of us support Senator Obama.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/a/2008/04/04/notes040408.DTL