My understanding is that there are different measuring sticks used despite some effect by the WHO to get a standard way of measuring Infant Mortality Rates (IMR).

My first pass on the WHO,CDC, et al sites found this:

"The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size."

This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths."

"In Austria and Germany,Switzerland, and others countries there are fetal weight and size limits used to determine the live births and thus the percentage."

"In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth.

Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates."

Your stats may not be as convincing as they first appear.
This is the way to blog!

Hello Paul! I have to tell you that when I see replies to me that include quotations with no link to the source, it gets my spidey sense all a-tinglin'.

So I googled your quoted verbiage and found the following qualifier to your direct quote:
"While the United States reports every case of infant mortality, many other countries do not. For example, a 2006 article in U.S. News & World Report states - without any supporting citation - that.." (emphasis added)(LINK)

So you'll forgive me if I am a bit skeptical of unsupported claims.

I did dig a bit deeper and found that there is some disparity in reporting vis a vis different countries. Nonetheless, the WHO asked all countries to pick a standard and stick to that reporting standard beginning in 1960. Every country (with the exception of Cuba) has done so since then.

It's therefore interesting to note that in 1960 the United States led the world with it's low infant mortality rate. Since then, virtually every country in the world has seen a decrease in their IMR, owing largely to advances in medicine. The RATE of decrease in the United States has been much SMALLER than in other countries, indicating (to me, anyway) a decline in health standards and/or availability.

Finally, it's worth noting that the United States is the ONLY country of any country with an infant mortality rate of less than 10/1000 that does NOT have universal health care. (LINK)

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Mamas, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Sissies!

The 60s was when we were introduced to the Great Society by LBJ (dem). No picking a choosing here Sniffles, you have to look a the whole picture of what LBJs plan wrought on society.

They can be interpreted much differently depending upon the assumptions you bring to the table.

I did dig a bit deeper and found that there is some disparity in reporting vis a vis different countries. Nonetheless, the WHO asked all countries to pick a standard and stick to that reporting standard beginning in 1960. Every country (with the exception of Cuba) has done

The point is this. As long as you have different standards of what is a live birth- the stats will not be compatible.

"I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan

So you'll forgive me if I am a bit skeptical of unsupported claims.

Is this the same character that chastises and insults Denise in regards to the links and cited sources that she uses to back up her arguments with?

Finally, it's worth noting that the United States is the ONLY country of any country with an infant mortality rate of less than 10/1000 that does NOT have universal health care.

I just don't understand this argument at all. With all of the advancements we've made in medical services and availability in this country since the 1960's and his issue is infant mortality rates?

Did it ever occur to folks that factoring in drug and alcohol abuse just might add a point or two to the statistics that Basmati cites? Go to Union City and Fairburn and check out all of the drug babies that are victims of their negligent so-called parent's selfish indulgences. Then ask yourself how you can justify nit-picking the numbers, that in many instances are less than a few hundredths of a percentage point off from those that have a lesser rate without factoring in the destructive lifestyles that our country heaps upon it's unborn. How can you honestly compare us to other countries? There are some things that even medical science cannot overcome. Poisoned babies and suicide via a .38 to the temple are both examples of such. And gee... I didn't even link my thoughts. Some opinions and facts can simply be derived via the usage of a little common sense.

And don't forget that in many of these countries their babies are killed in the womb at a much higher rate than ours. Gee, was that factored into the CIA's equation?

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The Sissy And The Word Defined

“Behind the Baby Count” By Bernadine Healy M.D.

In a remarkable achievement, the loss of babies during their first year of life has plummeted by almost 70 percent since 1970. Yet the nation's infant mortality rate is used time and again as evidence of America's failed health system.

First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths.... And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates.

Infant mortality in developed countries is not about healthy babies dying of treatable conditions as in the past. Most of the infants we lose today are born critically ill, and 40 percent die within the first day of life. [Would these babies have been miscarried without the prenatal treatment available today?] The major causes are low birth weight and prematurity, and congenital malformations.

Look at Iceland. It uses the same standards as we do. But it also has a population under 300,000 that is 94 percent homogenous, a mixture of Norse and Celts. Similarly, Finland and Japan do not have the ethnic and cultural diversity of our 300 million citizens. Even factoring in education and income, Chinese-American mothers have lower rates, and African-Americans higher, than the U.S. average. Environment matters as well. Lower infant mortality tracks with fewer teen pregnancies, married as opposed to single mothers, less obesity and smoking, more education, and moms pregnant with babies that they are utterly intent on having. [Prior abortions tend to contribute to higher premature births.] Yet, there are still biological factors that we don't understand that lead to spontaneous premature delivery.

["Study Links Abortion and Preemies"]

One sure biological factor is volume overload from multiple-birth pregnancies, something that's been on the rise with the increased use of fertility treatments.

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8-week fetus ("young one") -- Only 30-32 more weeks to go!

“Women who are experiencing an unplanned pregnancy also deserve unplanned joy.” (Feminists for Life)

links in your post above.

Excellent job on showing how the US is using a higher standard of measurement than the other countries.

Even our friends on the other side of this debate will have to admit that Time is hardly a bastion of conservative thought.

This is the way to blog!

Why don't you enlighten us on how this should be funded.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

answer. Good night all.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

I'm sorry I didn't respond immediately, I was packing the snifflespawn back off to their respective colleges.

To answer your question, funding should come via federal tax dollars.
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Mamas, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Sissies!

Don't we pour enough Federal Tax Dollars into that segment of the population that gives us very little of an ROI?

What happens when there are no more dollars to confiscate for your pet projects?
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The Sissy And The Word Defined

What segment would that be? The under 18 year olds? Uh, dude, I am thinking the ROI will be huge when you hit social security age and those kids are paying your Medicare.

You need to log off and forever forget your password.

What segment would that be? The under 18 year olds?

Silly goose... I'm speaking of the spawners and the offspring of the segment of population everyone is proposing to take additional hard earned monies from me and every other producer in this country who has busted their butts to keep their families together and fund their basic needs properly in an effort to not be in the same situation as those we speak. Most of these producers are barely making it themselves and characters like you want to further raid their paychecks and their potential future retirement investments to subsidize the "segment" as to which we speak? And then you tell me that my forced contributions will pay "huge" dividends when this same segment pays in some FICA and Medicare taxes? And you say it will beneifit me by adding a new tax onto the already excessive list of taxes that are ripped from my hand every day? Let me guess which one of the three clowns you support as president.

What makes you think this "segment" of the population will ever even pay in enough Social Security and Medicare taxes to even pay his or her own way in life, yet alone mine?

Now. As to my Social Security and Medicare benefits; I would be an idiot to trust my financial and retirement futures on those "huge" dividends you purport that I shall reap. (Unlike many like you, I will actually pay in more than I will ever take out.) Note this: Only a loser and an idiot would factor in and rely on these two bankrupt and broke subsidies as a serious part of their retirement future. Please tell me you are neither.

Hmmmm... but I do think I know where your coming from and I understand your confusion. It seems you believe a fascist is someone that believes there should be a limit as to how much the gumament is allowed to confiscate from a producer and earner's wallet to pay for those who neither plan for their future properly or are just to lazy or ignorant to do such. If that's the case I am one of those producing fascists that you are sick of. Have a good day in your self fulfilled life as a barnacle.

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The Sissy And The Word Defined

"Most of these producers are barely making it themselves and characters like you want to further raid their paychecks and their potential future retirement investments to subsidize the "segment" as to which we speak?"

1) When you think of this "segment" of society, what physical attributes do you envision this "segment" having, if any?

2) Is this the new Christian value system? Blame those children under 18 that have no insurance on their non-producing parents? DO YOU REMEMBER Muddle saying his Gran Kids don't have insurance? Soooo..... What would you say about the character of Muddle's kids, only knowing that thy have no insurance, but not ACTUALLY knowing them as persons?

How do we so easily type cast people who want "our riches" by way of tax payer funded healthcare? Why are you so dang comfortable paying for the healthcare of 200K a year professional politicians that have guberment healthcare for life? And you wonder why I don't call myself a conservative...

Cheers,

Kevin "Hack" King

That I'm a liar any other time I respond to you? Who do you think I am? Hillary? Obama? McCain? Chance? Or Seay?

1) When you think of this "segment" of society, what physical attributes do you envision this "segment" having, if any?

I addressed that earlier today. Due to time constraints look it back up yourself.

2) Is this the new Christian value system? Blame those children under 18 that have no insurance on their non-producing parents?

So what is your new Christian value system? Blame me and others for those children that these non-producing parents spawn and fail to take care of? And YES I remember Muddle's kids not having insurance. I've been there myself. Sooooo..... What's you point? Muddle didn't say it was my responsibility to provide that insurance for his kids... did he?

Do you know how funny and offensive it is to have folks constantly tell you as to how un-Christian you are because you don't feel like it's the governments roll to confiscate additional earnings of those that produce and pass it on to those who don't. How Christian like is it for you to expect the gumament to play Robin Hood so you can feel good that those with a bit more than you might in someway be penalized more than you? What in your mind makes you think that the answer to all our problems is to raid the earnings and assets of those that are trying to make a differnence and are actually getting ahead? Have you no earthly idea how many people are on food stamps right now? What? In West Virginia 1 in 6 and in Ohio it's 1 in 10? We're paying for that. How about welfare in general? How about free lunches? How about a tax rebate to people who didn't even earn a damned dime last year? I'm not getting one. Are you? How about.....good grief the list is endless and you want to throw another tax burden on my back? Go for it dude. It's real easy to blow other people's money isn't it?

Does it ever occur to you that if folks like me give up that all of a sudden others will be cast onto the welfare pile? Does it ever occur to you as to why companies are moving offshore and the worth of our assets is being bled to foreign nationals? Does it ever occur to you that perhaps you beloved christiany welfare programs are driving companies and investors out of this country? Does it ever occur to you that our country's real estate and remaining companies are being purchased at rock bottom bargain price because WE the producers are surrendering to our confiscatory government and it's anti business and compliance burdened policies? Go ahead Hack. Throw some more on my back. I've got 18 other employees I can chunk onto the "segment" pile and not have to worry about them any more. Good grief. Even the poorest of our poor have access to medical care in this country already. Heck, even the illegal Mexicans get free and sufficient health care.

Why are you so dang comfortable paying for the healthcare of 200K a year professional politicians that have guberment healthcare for life?

Use your imagination and picture what part of my body I'm telling you to kiss in regards to that question that doesn't even deserve to be dignified with an answer. What does a Basmati-like accusation like that have to do with my stance on resisting another bloated and wasteful government program that will further push this country down the crapper?

And you wonder why I don't call myself a conservative...

No Hack. I don't wonder why any more. A conservative you are not.

As for your blathering about my stance in Iraq elsewhere... I'll make you a deal. We move out the peaceful Iraqis along with our troops. Then we turn that stinking hell hole into a sheet of glass. Ditto's to Tora Bora and parts of Pakistan. Then we move our troops to our borders and keep the undesireable out whatever nationality they may be. Especially the French, Germans and Russians. We then eliminate waterboarding along with the capital punishment of murderers and our innocent unborn children. Got any better ideas? Diplomacy dern well doesn't work?

P.S. And on top of all that I've got every charitable organization you can imagine soliciting my office day after day trying to make me feel guilty because I will no longer hear them out. Not to mention all my employees and vendors that try to make me feel obligated to support their sports teams, church projects, school projects, and a ton of other miscellaneous pet projects. I even had a guy come up to me this week asking me for a $250 donation so his church could start another soft ball team. Guess who just lost out on hauling any more of Git's freight in the future? Go ahead Hack and tell me what a greedy conservative I am again.

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The Sissy And The Word Defined

I guess I'm keying on how you refer to the unborn so endearingly, but those in need of health care and any type of government assistance are "segments" with low ROI, "spawns", and oh so many colorful adjectives that are a permanent part of conservatives' vernacular. Why do I bring up congress and Iraq? PRIORITIES, Git. I've missed your complaints about how expensive it is to pay KBR to build substandard showers that shock soldiers to death. And I miss your demands for politicians (who are paid 100% by tax dollars) to buy or at least co-pay for their own health care. It seems like you are right their rooting for babies up to the point they are born. Then, it's good luck; you're on your own, pal. I know so many people who have been on the ropes and actually needed assistance. Better, though, many of these people are now self sufficient. One in particular is a business owner who has employees of his own. What makes the difference? Our priorities as a nation. Are people worth investing in or not? Are we only happy if our taxes go towards the guns side of the guns and butter argument? Git, before we beat this to death,

What successes in your conservative voting can I reflect on and consider evidence for a switch to republican voting? How is the economy, Git? Are you still calling this a "rough spot?" You knock diplomacy, but I don't recall us using diplomacy for 7 years now. In the business world, are bosses not performance based? So, Git, what are the GOP's metrics? Have they EARNED the keys to the throne? Do you honestly think we should continue holding course, heading, and airspeed and hope somehow everything just smooths itself out? The republican minority has been able to keep our course constant by way of preventing a veto proof majority. So in my mind, we need to move some more GOP road blockers to try any new idea at all.

Sorry for harping on your faith. Not cool of me to do, and I won't go there again.

Kevin "Hack" King

Oh man how could you miss his posts on that? Git is tougher on our low-life politicians than I am....and I'm kind of mean.

Anyway, have a good weekend one armed bandit.

Why are you so dang comfortable paying for the healthcare of 200K a year professional politicians that have guberment healthcare for life?

THAT peeved me off big time. I hate waste in my government and in business and have fought it for years. I can recite example after example of government waste dating back twenty years and was a dues paying member of Citizens Against Government Waste when Alan Shantz ran the thing. I have voiced opposition to wasteful government for years and it is only recently where I've thrown up my hands and given up on the whole idea of a responsible gumament. Especially after the GOP took over and proved they were no better than the fat cat Democrats they replaced. Now those same Democrats point out GOP waste just as you do and it would be shameful to think that your guys would reverse the trend that they too are addicted to. So you mock me and insinuate that I'm some closet Republican because I refuse to back Hillary or the Westmoreland like Hussein Obama. Yeah, I'm probably going to wind up pulling the lever for that other useless hack politician McCain.

As for Haliburton and their over priced services or sometimes lack there of, and any other group or business that bilks our government (with their permission)at the expense of our warriors, let me just say this: I hope they all burn in hell. Are we clear on that?

As far as your question as to whether people are worth investing in or not goes I'll say this. It depends. It depends as to whether that investment returns and investment that will benefit this country. As far as making lazy and unproductive folks more comfortable and throwing more cash into their bottomless pockets I say they are NOT worth investing in. Everyone deserves a chance. If they refuse to capitalize on the opportunities thrown at them and they blow their chances... then let them be substained on a minimal basis. If someone truly makes a difference and works their tails off, while creating new businesses, if they become scientist, engineers, researchers, teachers, military leaders, nurses, machinists, welders, and so on then I say heck yeah let's invest in them. But to pour money into some 300 pound fat butted welfare Grandma and her spawn generation after generation then I say quit wasting our money. Give them enough to maintain a 150 pound weight without the benefits of cable TV and cell phones.

Now let me clarify something else. Screw the GOP and their fake fiscal conservative policies and screw the Democrats and their phony self righteous conservative spending policies. We're going broke and it started under the watch of your guys and it now the policy of both parties to spend our grand children's inheritance. YOU need to git real and git away from your party and it's destructive venues much the same as I have mine. I will do this from this day out. I will never call myself an independent again. I've come to realize that an independent is a voter who is going to vote for the candidate that benefits his personal pet agendas with total disregard as to what is good for this country.

As far as Iraq goes.... like I said. Let's round up the decent Iraqis and move out. Let's turn that place into a sheet of glass and bring our boys home. I'm game. And we take any Islamo Facist who dares to raise his hand against us. Especially those on our own soil. Send them to hell and give them their however many virgins they get awarded. And let's pray they're all transvestites whose name if Bubba.

Shew! If I keep going I'm going to tell you how I really thing about this mess.

Disclaimer: No editing performed for sentence structure or spelling. It doesn't matter. In 24 hours this blog will disappear, never to be read again.

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The Sissy And The Word Defined

Have a good weekend, if you have free time come on over for a drink. Hack has had most of his shots, serious...

Anyway chat later

Pardon the jumping in on your question, but I don't think Git ever said he was "so dang comfortable paying for the healthcare of 200K a year professional politicians that have guberment healthcare for life?"

Speaking for myself, I think that Congressional Pensions and retirement health care for Congressmen should be cut each year by the rate of inflation and we just might get a Congress that wanted to control their spending.

Whereas you (or I) have every right to go out and buy some insurance for the folks you mentioned with our own money, it becomes a bit disconcerting to those of us with our own business to have money forcibly taken from us and used to buy votes with governmental benefits.

Part of my company's business is financial counseling and I can tell you that 95%+ of those I meet with could simply give up one of the family cell phones and the monthly HBO bill and buy their own insurance.

Case in point--the last several years the health insurance we provide to our employees has gone up 40% (or more) per year. Guy like us don't have the Fed to prop us up or get the help Delta has received. I have chosen to cut my own pay each year rather than reduce or eliminate the benefits for our employees.

I don't want kudos - it was the right thing to do for our people who work hard and are the reason the company is successful.

What we really have here is two very separate problems. Taking care of our disabled vets and/or others is one thing.

Throwing billions out as a universal fix for a problem that affects a small percentage of the population is another.

This is the way to blog!

You had some good points, Paul, to be sure. However , my first questions were "what attributes do we invision this "segment" having," and is it the new conservative Christian value system to ignore the needs of people such as Muddle's grand kids and my brother's kids who have at times, through no fault of their own, found themselves without basic health insurance? PAul, these are your words:

"Throwing billions out as a universal fix for a problem that affects a small percentage of the population is another."

Yes, Paul. A "small percentage" of Americans we are ignoring while we prop up Iraqi kids and adults alike with billions of U.S. dollars. Does this truly make sense? Git feels we should stay in Iraq until we "win." Obviously he must feel this will not financially destroy our country or require a raise in taxes. So, Paul, at what point do our programs require this raise in taxes. Assuming we will not be in Iraq forever, do you not see how the end of Iraq will free up this magical 1 billion dollars every two weeks that we currently use for non-Americans?

To be clear, I don't feel we can afford Iraq on the credit card. I do feel insuring America's children is a program worthy of paying for (taxes, government cuts in spending, etc.).I'm just confused that so often, those that profess a love for man and culture of life do so while ignoring the "lazy" or "leeches" or "sponges" or that "segment of society." Those are not my words, but words brought forth by the former moral majority. My head is spinning here. Torture people we feel are "bad," fight to not spend money insuring children, support fighting wars with no discernible end. Do you understand my confusion, Paul? I'm not assigning all of these views to you, but they are solidly Republican/conservative views as we see them today. I'm ready for plan B.

Cheers, and a good weekend to you
Kevin "Hack" King

I'm curious. If universal medical care for those under 18 becomes the law of the realm, what would prevent companies that currently offer this benefit from shedding it?

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

what is YOUR view of health care for children? Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Please, you know the answer to that- I love kids, work with kids, cherish kids. May I ask where are we going to get the funds for everyone to have healthcare?

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We Will Stand

that is the wrong question. The correct question might be...If this is something we should be doing, why can't we fund it? We HAVE the money, if we allocate it correctly. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Could you please tell me how since we have the money? The candidates running for office for President have not told us.

_______________________________
We Will Stand

keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

"Happy Easter" to you and your family"

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We Will Stand

What resources? I just want to understand. Why has not one candidate explained to us how? How about all the other things we are facing- we can't just look just to health care- there are alot of other issues.

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We Will Stand

I cannot even comprehend how large a budget we have as a nation, and we can't find the resources to provide children with health care? What does that say about our priorities? Sure there are other issues. But helping those who are defenseless, we can't do anything about that? I don't believe that.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

You talk about the "priorities" of our nation: What about the "priorities" of people who have kids they can't provide for? Where are their "priorities"? Why would anyone expect every taxpayer to take care of their needs?? Why would anyone assume that everyone would be over-joyed to take care of them???

Is it in the best interest of our nation to teach people that they do not have to work for a living? Is it in our best interest to teach people that everything will be given to them no matter how irresponsible they have been? (ie, interest only mortgages, birth control)

I think welfare teaches people to be irresponsible.

and in alot of ways I agree with you, but I cannot understand the rational that withholds care from children. Educate people about the responsibility of parenthood (I do not recall ever hearing about those classes at a high school), sure. But we do not have the right to consider ourselves a Christian nation if we do not do all we can to help in everyway possible those who are less fortunate in the world, for what ever reason. It is our duty to help them. It is not our duty to find excuses for not helping them. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

We should "help those who are less fortunate in the world" Not just our country even though we are sinking in a quicksand of national debt. Now we should not only give free handouts to people who have kids who don't want to work in our country but, we should help the whole world????? HUH??

Can I have a few clippings from the money tree or the pot plants growing in your backyard?? I think I will need them to continue this conversation.

The MONEY WILL COME FROM WHERE?????

I only have enough money to take care of myself, why should I, or would I take care of someone elses kids?? Seek donations from the churches, lets see what they come up with.

You know that April 1st is still a week away,....right??

you live your life the way you think you should and I will live my life the same way. If you don't feel it is your responsibility to do anything for anyone but you and yours, then that is perfectly fine with me. I will not try to change your outlook on life. There are others who feel called to give aid when and where they can, and I am thankful for them. If we want to provide for those who can't, then we will find a way. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

you live your life the way you think you should and I will live my life the same way.

Not to be disrespectful to Yardman, but I don't believe for a moment that he really believes what he just typed. What he is really saying is this: "Think how you may. I understand your unwillingness to support the causes that I feel are near and dear to my heart. So, rather than get in a tizzy with you, I shall fight to elect politicians that support my desires and I will rely on them to forcibly extract your hard earned dollars so they can be distributed to those who are eager for a handout".

You see.... it's the habit of many in our society to rely on "other people's money" to ease their social conciences.

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"I'm Pro Choice - On Light Bulbs

They always want other peoples money.

They want to avoid taking respinsibility for poor decisions(interest only mortgages, huge debt, no job, kids they can't afford) at all costs.

Especially if those costs are passed on to people who are responsible.

Because you are going off on a tangent. You are smart enough to know that Yardman means "world" figuratively; helping kids in our world; our country. Gee, skyspy, I've missed your outrage about us spending a billion of YOUR tax dollars every two weeks providing "welfare" for Iraqis. I've missed your outrage every time a four-engined 747 called Air Force One travels the country on political campaigns. And I've definitely missed your outrage in YOUR tax dollars being used to fatten the pockets of KBR, Halliburton, Blackwater, and all of the other contractors compensated at much higher rates than OUR soldiers. Yes, Skyspy, I missed your fiscal consistency there. Keep in mind, the company called KBR, being very well paid with YOUR tax dollars, has electrocuted TWELVE of our soldiers through negligence in maintaining cheap Chinese water pumps used in our soldiers' barracks. In at least three cases, the families were lied to about how and why these soldiers were killed. And YOUR tax dollars enable this; daily. Google Staff Sgt. Ryan Maseth if you'd like to see YOUR tax dollars at work, Sky.

So, yes; live your life as you see fit; accept what we have today as the best YOU think we can do as a nation. There are many of us out here who think orphans and other disadvantaged youths should not be political footballs, viewed not as lives, but as lazy byproducts. Conservatism has done how well for us these last 8+ years? Are you kidding me, Sky????? You know the Walmart employee who was hit by a truck and is permanently disabled? You remember how Walmart has sued her and won for more than she is worth? yes, that lady who lost her 18 year old son in Iraq a week after Walmart won the verdict? Are her husband and remaining child, both flat broke with legal fees, examples of lazy Americans who are encouraged to be lazy by "welfare?" Have you absolutely no ability to view other's situations in a compassionate manner? Honest question...

Kevin "Hack" King

Did you make it home safe?

I was responding to the immediate thread, but the 9 trillion or so of national debt, for a bush family personal war tics me off too.

I don't like white collar crime, I don't like having my tax dollar used and abused for any reason. I think I have been pretty cosistent on that. I think I am punished for being successful in this country. I don't work overtime because almost half goes to taxes. Why should I work extra at a stressful job, to support people who don't want to work??

No I don't think the last 8yrs, really 7.5 have been very good at all. Not for my wallet anyway.

Don't be a stranger. Are you home for awhile?

"No I don't think the last 8yrs, really 7.5 have been very good at all. Not for my wallet anyway."

And in that, WE find common ground I'm around till next thursday. I still remember the essential brands and I think Mon, Teu, or Wed will be perfect fpr twisting some caps I'll call.

Cheers,

Kevin "Hack" King

Come on by, hopefully the weather will be nice. Have a great weekend.

Let the churches handle the charity work. There are so many non-profit groups in our great country that we can all find one that we are called to give money to.

I like that idea better than higher taxes for those of us who have jobs.

Have a good week.

Very good points, but it seems that charity isn't part of some people's belief system.

“For Obama, Charity Really Began in the U.S. Senate" Excerpt

Giving, service and compassion are recurrent themes on the campaign trail for Sen. Barack Obama, but the Democratic presidential contender has only recently dug deep into his own pockets to support charitable causes.

Obama has enjoyed a robust household income throughout his political career in the Illinois Senate and the U.S. Senate. But for most of that time he has reported comparatively little by national standards in charitable contributions on his tax returns, records released by Obama show.

Public attention to charitable gifts has led to uncomfortable moments for prominent political figures. Then-Vice President Al Gore came in for withering ridicule in 1998 when his tax return showed he had contributed just $353 to charity. So did then-President Bill Clinton, after a review of old tax returns revealed that he had once claimed a $75 deduction for donating a suit with ripped pants to the Salvation Army, as well as $2 for a pair of used underwear and $9 for six pairs of used socks.

In 2002, the year before Obama launched his campaign for U.S. Senate, the Obamas reported income of $259,394, ranking them in the top 2 percent of U.S. households, according to Census Bureau statistics. That year the Obamas claimed $1,050 in deductions for gifts to charity, or 0.4 percent of their income. The average U.S. household totaled $1,872 in gifts to charity in 2002, according to the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University. [The average U.S. household income would be way below the quarter million the Obamas reported.]

The national average for charitable giving has long hovered at 2.2 percent of household income.

The Generosity Index, ranked by state (The top 28 most generous states are red states that went for Bush in the 2004 election, except for #26, New York.)

"Kerry’s Tax-Return Shuffle"

In 1995, according to published reports, Kerry reported a taxable income of $126,179, and charitable contributions of $0. In 1994, he reported income of $127,884, and charitable donations of $2,039. In 1993, he reported income of $130,345, and contributions of $175. In 1992, he reported income of $127,646, and contributions of $820. In 1991, he reported income of $113,857, and contributions of $0.

As far as Bush is concerned, in 1991, the future president, then a private citizen, reportedly had income of $179,591, and charitable contributions of $28,236. In 1992, Bush reported income of $212.313, and contributions of $31,914. In 1993, Bush reported income of $610,772, and contributions of $31,292. In 1994, Bush reported income of $474,937 and in 1995, income of $419,481.

"Family-run foundations [such as the Clintons'] are commonly created by wealthy Americans, allowing them to earn tax breaks by donating to a charity whose future good works they can control. Such charities need only to give 5 percent of proceeds each year to maintain a tax exemption."

Conservatives Give More!

"Who Gives to Charity?"

"The people who give one thing tend to be the people who give everything in America. You find that people who believe it's the government's job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away."

"Are Americans Cheap?"

"Are the Rich Cheap?"

Rush Limbaugh: 4.2 million, Democrats: zero

Wow, Denise no wonder everyone is so upset at us.

This is amazing! To think they give President George W. Bush a hard time, of course- he does not care what they think. He is commander and chief- and he could care less what they think. GO BUSH!

I think Conservative may give more- alot of conservatives are Christian. We do seem to care even if some think we don't.

Thanks for these links- will show Mr. BPR btw which supports us- so have at it guys- I'm married to a guy that don't give a hoot what you think about him- Hummm alot like President George W. Bush.

Thanks for the links- excellent work Denise.

You go girl, don't give up- you are good at this- WE NEED YOU!

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We Will Stand

Check your email. Thanks!

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We Will Stand

Delete duplicate.

I am glad you are on here, your a breath of fresh air.

After I get through wiping my tears explaining something.

Life is good-

Hope work wasn't too hard today- sorry you had to work.

Have a good evening.

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We Will Stand

I am already punished enough in this country for having a job and being successful, I don't need my taxes raised anymore.

If this country ever changes our tax system to straight sales tax, where everyone pays their fair share, I think we would all be better off.

I don't see any other way than to tax us more. I just hope the candidates will explain how we are going to do this. Like we both think with taxes being raised.

I failed to say that when I had family member that don't have insurance, sadly he chooses not to have it- half the time he works and half the time he doesn't and he has kids. I feel for the kids that they have a dad that could get a job and provide insurance for them. It makes me sad- I don't get it, not caring enough to do that.

Also, my friend, will always be my friend- chooses to give their child anything he wants material wise but does not have the money for insurance.

I find both situations sad, and not a good choice.

These are people I love but I don't agree with their priorities.

My husband has to work hard to have insurance and cares enough about his family to provide it.

Have a good day.

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We Will Stand

Unfortunately, other than paying lip service to the issue; no one - Democrats or Republicans - has the courage to either fund it by cutting funding to other programs - which of course means a fight for money - or telling us tax payers that we'll be taxed more.

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

I cannot understand how anyone who considers themselves a Christian could withhold health care from children younger than 18

My daughter and her family have no health insurance. She has three small children. I worry all the time about their situation. So I have a strong attraction to the idea of some solution that would provide their coverage.

But is it as simple as that?

I'll begin with an example that intentionally reflects an obtuse interpretation of your statement.

I call myself a Christian. Yet, with a little ingenuity, you will easily be able to point to an instance of a child under 18 in, say, Arkansas or Wyoming who has no health care. I am not moved to pay for his or her health care, chiefly because it is beyond my means. Is my "refusal" evidence of hypocrisy?

What this shows is that, whatever truth there is in your statement, it is conditioned by feasibility, among other things. I simply should not be expected to foot the bill for the health insurance of an Arkansas child, though I might certainly wish her well.

Similar questions arise regarding the actual proposals for universal health care. First, perhaps it is true that a society ought to use a portion of its (elevated) taxes to ensure that everyone in that society has health care. But even if it is true, it is hardly self-evident. It is not presented to the properly functioning conscience in the way that It is wrong to strangle babies to watch their faces turn blue is so presented. There is room for reasonable dissent by people of genuine good will.

I think the whole health care debate comes down to one question: Do people have a right to health care?

Clearly, it is a good thing for them to have access to such care. Clearly, people who provide such care are doing a good thing. But is it a right in the sense that those who do not have it are actually suffering an injustice?

A relevant principle here is that wherever there is a right there is a corresponding obligation. If I have a right to X, then, under certain specified circumstances, someone, somewhere, has a moral obligation to see to it that I am provided with X.

Rights come in two basic flavors: positive and negative.

Consider the right to life.

Seen as a negative right, the right to life is the right not to be killed. You violate my right to life just in case you (unjustifiably) take my life. But, seen as a positive right, the right to life is a right to whatever is necessary to continue living. Food and shelter are among these. This would mean, then, that I not only have a right not to be killed, but I also have a right to food, shelter, and, in the present case, medical assistance when needed.

But is it plausible to suppose that you--or someone else--have an unconditional obligation to supply me with food or shelter? Why in the world should anyone think such a thing?

I come at the whole health care issue with these considerations in mind.

And even if someone, somewhere has a duty to provide me with the essentials of life, is it obvious that it is the tax-funded government?

you have stated some very valid points about universal health care. However, it is not universal health care for everyone that I advocate here {I may want that, but that is not the point of this thread}. Rather, I am talking about making sure that children are provided with health care. You say that you do not have the wherewithal to provide for folks in Arkansas or Wyoming. I cannot argue that. What I AM saying is that we should be able to provide healthcare for children...if we care about them as a society. We can most certainly come up with plenty of reasons not to do it, but what does it say about us as a nation and as a people if we do not do it? We choose to spend our money elsewhere...farm subsidies, urban renewal, etc. and let our children suffer? I will not and do not hang the "hypocrite" moniker on anyone. I only say that where we spend our funds says more about us as a nation that all the speeches we make on ANY subject. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Thanks.

I hope you are reading me correctly.

I would, of course, love to see my grandkids covered in ways that they currently are not.

And I have a strong natural inclination in favor of such coverage.

But I think that the inclination by itself is not enough. We need to ask hard questions about the purpose of government and the nature of rights. I think that government should be in the business of defending/protecting any and all rights of individual citizens. But perhaps we assume more rights than are warranted. I will happily concede to a persuasive argument for the conclusion that people--our children in particular--have a natural right to health care, and that, therefore, this should be funded by taxes.

But I have yet to hear a persuasive argument. It seems to me that people in favor of such things often make unwarranted assumptions.

My paragraphs above make me sound like some sort of individualist libertarian. I'm not. But I do think that an argument is called for that would show that there is a moral mandate for health care.

Oh, Jim Wallis is a fellow alum of the seminary that I attended in Illinois.

You say you have read up on this book, does that mean you have read the book or read about the book? Now if you've read the book and disagree with it that's one thing, but if you haven't and have just read opinion pieces about it I suggest you read it before getting bent out of shape. Just because he doesn't believe like you doesn't make him wrong, it just makes him different,are all the Jews wrong? The Buddhists, or all the other religions? I've asked you this before and you said you wouldn't answer on here, but if you're going to take someone to task about something on this site it is dishonest to not make an argument and just say take this on your faith. Now I'm not trying to make trouble, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from and just because you say it and believe it, doesn't make you right.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Let's say I looked into buying the book, read some of it as you do before you read a book- also read reviews of the book from both sides. I also read up on the person that wrote the book. Yes, I differ from Yardman, our views are different on issues in the book.

Have you read the book, depending on your beliefs and what you are looking for you may agree and that is fine.

This book to me is saying Obama since he so involved in health care has the answer. The book talks alot about poverty, which I know is a problem, but as of yet Obama nor any candidate have told us how they are going to solve this. The only way I see is to raise our taxes. What do you think? I don't like that everyone does not have health care, I have friends and family members that don't have it. To me where do we get the money?

If Yardman is going to endorse a book, I find this book offensive to me, and that is okay because this is what Yardman believes. To me it is one sided- and all about the party he supports- he can read it and believe it if he wants that's his choice. I am sad that it knocks my party. I did not expect to read that.

It does not make either of us wrong, I just said I disagree with the book- my views are different. Just because he says it right does not make it right like just because I say its wrong does not make it wrong. That is fair. I asked people to read some of the book research the book before you buy it.

Freedom of religion- yes we have that I am glad- but I also have freedom of speech as he does also, we all do.

I know you are not trying to make trouble, I know you better than that. Nor am I trying to make trouble for Yardman- I just found the book one sided- my view. It's okay to differ and still get along.

I will put it this way, the book is not my views at all. We all know we have all the problems of health care, morals, - but to me it point is focused mainly on poverty. We have alot of things going on than just poverty- everyone knows that.

So, it's up to whoever wants to buy it- depends on individual views.

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We Will Stand

No I haven't read the book. I also haven't rendered an opinion on the book either, but you did render an opinion on the book without reading it and I don't see how you can do that. have you ever watched a movie that had bad reviews that you didn't agree with? This reminds me of that lady in Gwinnett County that was so against the Harry Potter books saying they were promoting witchcraft and she had never once read a Potter book. Now back to your opinion, you said and I will cut and paste here so there is no mistake, "I suggest your read the bible on the issues that were stated and you will get the correct answer." Now we're delving into opinion here, like when you said the gay people choose to be gay because God doesn't make mistakes. Now even if I let that go how do you explain the birth defects that happen all the time, is that God's retribution against the parents, did they do something so foul that this is their punishment? I know last time you sent me a song about this, but I want to hear what you think, not what someone wrote in a song. Now granted I'm a cynic, 100% cynic I might add, and I'm the heathen in two different family's, but my father-in-law who is a Dr. of Theology would never tell someone they were going to Hell if they didn't believe like he does and let me add for the fools like Dollar or Sage as he is known this week or month, I've known this man over 27 years now and not once has he pushed religon on me, or told me I should believe as he does, and through my observation of him over the years, I have not once seen him not walk the walk, as he talks the talk, and he is the only reason I don't condemn religion altogether. I digress here what I mean to say is it seems to me and this is just my opinion here that you are saying you are right and everyone that doesn't agree with you is wrong and I just don't see how you can be so sure of that.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

My company did not stay long.

I did enough research on the book, it is not for me, and I think that is fair to say. Now someone else it may be for, I just asked to take a look at it before you read it. When I go to buy I book, I do some research on it if it's a book that deals with issues. Then I go and read some of the book at the store. I do my homework. I just don't go and buy the book.

Yes, the bible gives us the correct answers, we don't need a book to tell us things on issues, it's in the bible, it is still okay to read the book. Either you believe it or not. BTW I am not pushing that on you or anyone. Your choice.

I know Yardman said he goes to church, that is why that comment was made.

Do you honestly think I have the answers to everything- why kids are born with defects- you did not get a word of the song- God gave them a blessing- they still wanted the baby. God is not a God that is out to get you when you mess up if that were the case wow would I be in deep trouble. Again, this a deep subject that needs to be discussed in person.

I don't push religion on anyone, I do talk about God, you know why- that is the way I make it in life. My hardest challenge now is dealing with the death of my mom and sister- my sister died 4 months before my mom. Do I still trust God- you bet- I can't live if I don't. People that have lost someone so close and they were both close- what do you do if you don't believe in God?

I can't tell you the pain of it- the hurt daily of they are not here anymore- dealing with my Dad being lonely, my comfort is to listen and pray- how many times I pick up the phone to call them thinking they are still here and sob- yeah, Hutch I need God. I trust Him. If you don't understand that then I don't know what to say.

You choose to believe what you want- I choose to believe what I want- we live in the land of the free.

No, I do not expect everyone to believe like me, that's the good thing about living in the land of the free. If you think I do than I am sorry you are mistaken. Will I stop talking about God, I can't He is my strength.

Have you experienced that yet, loosing a loved one- yeah I know where they are- I miss them being here daily. I was there when my Mom died, hardest thing I have ever done. Everything I prayed happened- it was just me and the nurse at home- her temp went up to 130 and I was putting cool water on her- she just stopped breathing. No gasping for breath, no struggle- peaceful, like she was sleeping just not breathing. I serve a gracious God.

It's okay if you disagree with me, if you were to ask most that know me, I think they would tell you that it bothers me to be at odds with people because I do value people.

I have never told anyone they are going to hell- that is between you and God- He knows our hearts.

This all needs to be addressed in person.

Hope you understand. I also have a father-in-law that who is a Dr. of Theology- he lives in heaven now.

Thanks in advance for your understanding- please don't misunderstand.
Have a good evening.

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We Will Stand

My point was you say this book is wrong, yet you didn't read it. Then you say the real answers are in the Bible, so in essence you are saying both Yard and the author are wrong, yet you haven't read the book. You don't have to tell me the pain of losing someone, my dad died in 78, my stepfather died in 84, I loved them both, do you think you have a corner on this kind of suffering, you had a lot longer with yours then I did with mine. You don't push religion on anyone, but you tell them they're wrong if they don't believe as you do, you state your opinion but won't defend it on here, if you believe enough to state it you should believe enough to defend it. I'll tell you the part of your post that ticked me off, it was when you said Yards opinion was in part because of the company he keeps, like he couldn't make up his own mind. I don't agree with a lot of what the man espouses but I know he is his own man. In closing I think you need to worry more about your understanding and less about mine. You too have a good evening.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Again Hutch, this is my opinion from what research and reviews and going to the bookstore and reading some of the book. There was enough I read that I did not agree. Isn't that okay that I did not buy the book when I spent all that time, checking on the author, reading reviews from both sides, and going to the store, I am a fast reader. It does not take long to figure out if you want to buy a book or not.

I know Yardman has his mind made up and can speak for himself, as for me and everyone else we are known by the company we keep including me and they can influence it.

In the death part of my mom and sister- people grieve in different ways, a little compassion would help. I have it for you- I am sorry - I know the pain.

Alot of people disagree daily if someone does not agree with someone.
Don't I have that right also.

Don't worry if it takes cut and paste I will do it for you. I can tell you right now, alot say things and I don't agree with and I never say a word . Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't say anything. Alot tell me I am wrong if I don't believe like they do.

You don't know me too much- understanding I tolerate alot in life and on here that I don't agree with. But, don't worry I will be sure and try to cut and paste to prove my point, if I do it shouldn't everyone do it.

I refuse to argue- we are adults.

Understanding- yes I understand you.

Have a good evening.

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We Will Stand

The hutch is cooking Easter ribs and they are done now, I'll get back to you in a few minutes.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

_
Sorry, you didn't eat your ribs fast enough.

I have to go for now, we have company.

"Happy Easter" To you and your family.

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We Will Stand

I ate the ribs fast I just don't type very fast. I also wrote something very long.

I yam what I yam....Popeye