you could be right but then again the link(s) between the two that Richard pointed out is interesting.

I won't joke about either one, but I'll tell you something I think would help. I got in late on this thread and have yet to hear what you or others define as torture.

Do you subscribe to the Geneva Convention definitions or do you believe they are wrong?

This is the way to blog!

I finally had time to read the thread and it looks like you were the first to bring up being "pro-life" in conjunction with your anti-torture statements.

I won't take away from any of your points on the above, but Richard has accurately linked this two issues. Rather than "diluting" the topic I think it's pointing out the need to be consistent.

So before I respond to the points you made I have to know something. Maybe I just missed it if some comments are in another thread.

Just how do you stand for the "right" to burn the skin off an unborn child while protesting other forms of torture?

This is the way to blog!

Just how many knots are you "pro lifers" going to tie yourselves in, Paul??

1. I am pro choice. I believe women and female children who find themselves either by rape, incest, drunken fornication, miscalculation, failure of contraceptives, or failure of judgment to be pregnant with a fertilized egg, should have the legal right (Which they do) to end those pregnancies in the first trimester . I feel like torture (using pain and injury to obtain information most experts and John McCain feel is flawed info), which has been illegal up to now, and which is now defended by "pro-lifers" is wrong and below contempt. If you want to equate my position of supporting a woman's right to early abortion to a right to "burn the skin off an unborn child," that is your leap of logic that I'm not taking with you. Why? Because you will never see me say "we should burn the skin off of unborn children."

NOW THE INTERESTING PART:

Pro lifers say life starts at egg joining sperm, in general.
Some pro lifers try to assign the word "child" to this fertilized egg.
Pro lifers feel life is only to be under God's control(and it helps the argument emotionally to assign a zygote childhood.)***

*** Some restrictions apply

-not if they are a person whom has been given to our soldiers or agents and our agents have been told (falsely or not)the PERSON is a "bad guy."

-not if they are a PERSON whom for reasons deemed unjustifiable find themselves on public assistance.

-not if they are a PERSON judged by humans in human courts to be guilty (in human judgment) of crime worthy of death (in humans' opinions).

I find that inconceivable from "pro lifers."

Soooo. Let's do the whole abortion debate over again, Paul.

Where am I wrong?

Kevin "Hack" King

Rusty as my Spanish is, I think that says, "Your good friend will always tell you the Truth."

I find that inconceivable from "pro lifers."
Soooo. Let's do the whole abortion debate over again, Paul.
Where am I wrong?

Let me see if I can get the wingtips level on this flight, my amigo.

Properly understood,the position won't be inconceivable at all.

I'm against torture being the official policy of our government.
I agree with many of your points above.
I've made many posts on how I believe the Patriot Act to be the worst piece of legislation (poorly written might be the better term) since the Alien and Sedition Act of 1787. It suspends due process in some of the same ways things are happening in Gitmo.

Ready to stop painting me with the pro-torture brush?

Also, I would never say you are for burning the skin of any human being. BTW- I admire what you've done in adoption and with your niece.

That said, you know that there is a but coming here.

What I do find very hard to understand is how you can sit silently and never raise your voice in protest as over 4,500 human beings (btw-most ob-gyns would say children in that sentence) are killed in America every day in ways that make Gitmo look like a Sunday school picnic.

To my knowledge, we not pulling the limbs off live human beings in Gitmo.

We're not sucking out the brains of the Gitmo residents.

Not do we dump burning solutions on their skin.

Actually, that abortion technique is rarely used now, since more abortions can be done quicker (time is money you know) by puncturing the skull and vacuuming out the brains.

So help me out here. I still see gross inconsistency in your take on this.

Hey, but I do think I have something on this subject that we will agree on 100%!

Let's move it over to here and see it we don't have something we can fight side by side on.

Let me know which arm is bad and I'll cover that side for you in the fight!

This is the way to blog!

Either I need to kick me back a six pack of that peaches and cream beer you mentioned, so that I can understand what the heck you are talking about, or you better not be drinking a couple, while posting.

You've really taken to the nth extreme your logical--and I use that term lightly, analysis of Paul and my comments.

Unfortunately, you can not conceptionalize responsibility, as I've posted before about liberals. Society has determined that some criminals deserve the death penalty for certain crimes committed by the proven guilty. This is quite a bit different than the taking of an innocent life for convienence sake.

The entire rest of your post is pretty much so far fetched, I'll not try to respond, at least not in a single post.

So, either stop drinking while you post, or stop posting when you drink, cuz you're really not making much sense right now.

You see through $age, better known as Dollar, Bonker$, Nitpicker$, D. $mith. I'm sure I forgot some of his many faces.

Like your avatar. I needed a laugh. Think I'll go read Curious George and Popeye to the kids.

I tried to stay out of this,I really have.

Denise you have a right to your opinion just like everyone else.
For what it's worth, I agree with you on abortion. I don't believe for a second that you condone torture of our soldiers!

My humble opinion.
Tug

Then what does she condone? Sounds like Bush!
Is she saying it is NOT torture, therefore we don't torture?
What does "of our soldiers" mean? Do we waterboard ours? No but THEY might ours since we do!

The prevention of torture becoming an accepted tool of this country is not an opinion piece for me. I believe it is imperative for the survival of our military and international reputation of moral leadership.

I am amazed at people on both sides who joke about this. I suppose, in their life experiences, when someone says they will die for this country, they find such statements to be beyond belief.

At any rate, when someone comes over to a blog on "torture" (an illegal practice we outwardly claim not to espouse), and attempt to dilute it with references to abortion (legal in every state of the union) they will be called to back up what they say. I've found myself having to defend my words. I hope Denise will "woman-up", state an actual opinion, and then defend it.

Tug, you know that, at the end of the day, I'm fighting FOR this country and not AGAINST Denise, Richard, Armymajret, or Git

And I still love you bunches and bunches. I'll leave Denise alone now, but she's a feisty woman who will be swinging for my head by day's end

Kevin "Hack" King

I believe it was Jane who said "the worlds problems will never be solved on these blogs." She's right.
I will jump in with my opinion sometimes. As for the "joking" I must have missed that.
I still love you bunches too. Thank you again for your service to our country.

Hope your arm is healing well.

But you have no problem joking about Basmati's post using a conservative and sodomizing a dog as an example? "Quite clever, in an 'I need a bath now' kind of way."

Let me explain Richard's humor. He substituted waterboarding (since that was the topic and the source of your ire against Republicans only) for swimming lessons. Who would've ever thought you and Hutch would take it seriously? Satire just isn't in your comprehension, is it?

For someone who claims to be so tough, you surely are sensitive about TERRORISTS getting water in their faces and who didn't die or suffer any permanent damage. (?) I do wonder how many lives were saved by their answers. I'm sure Pelosi will never tell.

Maybe Hack and myself take it so seriously because we are both vets. I also notice you don't joke about abortion, some things just aren't funny are they according to each person's own perspective.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

You and Hack both know how I feel about veterans. As I've said before, my "Navy nephew" has been in Iraq one time. He's on a ship somewhere over there now.

Sometimes I think it's a waste of time to log on here anymore.

Take care

It's always worth the price of admission.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Or should I say the guys you cite are lying. But you are resourceful enough to know. If I keep calling you on the out of thin air comments you make, I will become the bad guy by default. My and your respective toughness not withstanding, you chose to enter the ring of baby waterboarding lessons, so let's continue to tango.

You developed this film in your mind:
"...you surely are sensitive about TERRORISTS getting water in their faces and who didn't die or suffer any permanent damage. (?) I do wonder how many lives were saved by their answers."

Wikepedia's description of water boarding's effects:

"Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure."

You have also claimed... Sorry. Articles you hide behind claim only three terrorists were water boarded.

Read below if you wish. The FACT is the CIA only admitted to waterboarding three individuals. This is after constant refusals to answer direct questions were destroyed by honest whistleblowers that leaked the truth.

We will never know what was on the tapes destroyed by the CIA against the advice of the Justice Department, but it does not sound like your (possible) side of this argument is made through a position of candor and forthrightness.

More Wikepedia on numbers of prisoners we may have tortured by proxy:

"According to Swiss senator Dick Marty's memorandum on "alleged detention in Council of Europe states", about a hundred persons had been kidnapped by the CIA on European territory and subsequently rendered to countries where they may have been tortured. Information memorandum II on the alleged secret detentions in Council of Europe state, rapported by Dick Marty, January 22, 2006 While Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has described those detained in Camp Delta at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, as "the worst of the worst", it is now known those with the highest intelligence value are not detained or interrogated in Cuba, and are thought to be held at "black site" facilities in Eastern Europe constructed and used by the former Soviet Union to incarcerate political prisoners."

Spin away, and I hope you still love me in the morning, Denise.

Kevin "Hack" King

Do you know what the following words mean?

WB "carries the risks" (i.e, the possibility of suffering harm) -- Better odds than Hutch's version of Russian Roulette, I'd think. (I forgot. Put on serious face. Look sad. Don't smile.)

"alleged detention in Council of Europe states"

"the alleged secret detentions"

"thought to be held"

"countries where they may have been tortured"

That's "candor and forthrightness" if I've ever seen it. No need to spin anything, if you read what's written.

"Honest whistleblowers that leaked the truth." -- Could they possibly be dishonest? Partisan hacks?

With lying politicians on BOTH sides, you're likely right: "We will never know." What did Clinton trade for Mark Rich's pardon and for all of those others? (He at least earned the distinction of making TIME's 10 Most Notorious Presidential Pardons List.) What documents did Sandy Burglar steal? What's Hillary hiding in all of those papers she won't release? I guess we'll never know.

"TERRORISTS getting water in their faces and who didn't die or suffer any permanent damage. "

Is that a true statement?

Kevin "Hack" King

But, but, but, but Bill CLINTON did it!!!!
What about Bill Clinton?
What must we do about Bill Clinton?
All that excess money he saved during his eight years---who spent it?

I know what we must do---punish H. Clinton!!!

But, but, but, but Bill CLINTON did it!!!!
What about Bill Clinton?
What must we do about Bill Clinton?
All that excess money he saved during his eight years---who spent it?

I know what we must do---punish H. Clinton!!!

Want to hear Denise's thexxy voice? (LINK)

(Okay, it's probably NOT Denise's voice but if you close your eyes you could well imagine her saying this!)

You brought tears to my eyes. You're a blessing.

I read recently about a mother who saw her aborted son born alive, and the clinic didn't call 911. Once she saw his face and held his tiny hand, she wanted him to live. She was divorced and already had 2 children and was overwhelmed at the thought of having another child to care for. (Quite understandable, even if you have a husband.) Such a beautiful little boy. Who could deny that he's a child after looking at his pictures and reading his mother's pleas for help and her words of regret? At least some are saved. I've never heard a mother who's changed her mind about abortion regret giving birth, even if she gives the child up for adoption. Maybe there are few. But, once you see their face....

Remember the old saying, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bulls***."

baffled because you admit that you're not brilliant?

The truth is that I am pretty well known by many, and if I posted my real name, people who know me would say, "I'm surprised she posted such shallow comments."

I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions, even if they are "shallow."

_________________________

8-week fetus ("young one") -- Only 30-32 more weeks to go!

“Women who are experiencing an unplanned pregnancy also deserve unplanned joy.” (Feminists for Life)

I don't remember you ever dazzling anyone.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

Waterboarding
is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent. wikipedia definition.

SALINE ABORTION:
"Salt poisoning", or the saline method, is used after the sixteenth week of pregnancy. A needle is inserted through the abdominal wall, through the uterine wall and into the amniotic sac.

Some of the amniotic fluid is removed and replaced with a concentrated salt solution. The unborn child breathes in and swallows the salt and is poisoned by it.

The mother goes into labour and a dead baby is delivered 24 to 48 hours later. This method of abortion is so dangerous to the mother that it is banned in sweden and japan.

I'm sorry, I'm not a trial lawyer so you'll have to explain to me what abortion has to do with the subject of torture, are you saying you want to give these guys abortions now? If this is the best you can come back with maybe you should try again for I can't see the relevance.

I yam what I yam....Popeye

I could have said that, but not anywhere near as eloquently. Thank you. Keep the faith.

ps. How did the little white ball striking go today?

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Blew up on the 18 and scored a 102

I yam what I yam....Popeye

About those baby waterboarding lessons -- We expect our kids to be TOUGH -- not whiners -- Marine material.

My ability to make educated guesses about people here I owe to the logic training that math gave me, the many political discussions with my dad (Judith Moore only talked with her mama, who told her "never to talk about politics and religion because that would surely result in unpleasantness."), and woman's intuition. My kids love my abilities.

I've been told that I should have been a prosecutor because of my tenaciousness. But the law is too ambiguous when lawyers can twist the meaning of "is." I have a friend who's in your profession but sees the cesspool that it has become. Makes for interesting discussions.

Thanks for your legal explanation about the Wal-mart case. I've seen clients lose, even when winning, but never lawyers (such as class action suits). I'm listening to Bill Handle for entertainment. I try to find out about a lot of different topics. Never know when it might come in handy.

I got a cryptic message from Cal in response to the recent banning. So, you might be prescient about that. Will you represent me?

Back to fact gathering for future "torture" sessions!

is torture something you look forward to happening to you? Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Are you a terrorist?

in "the Golden Rule's" fine print does it offer Christians an exemption when related to terrorists? Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

That one was readable but not understandable!

So you got a shortened, mysterious message from Cal about something that may be going to happen!

Why do you need representation?

If you are logical, then I am Einstein!
On the subject of deliberate torture (as "not" mental torture) I suppose you think that the Spanish Inquisition was deemed to be beneficial?

Or the killing of the Witches in Salem was necessary?

and you just might understand a little but you'd NEVER be Einstein!

Wouldn't you like to know about the mysterious messages I receive and send?

I suppose you thoroughly understand the theory of relativity due to your logical, mathematical mind?

I hadn't thought about reading your mysterious messages, no.
I could care less what you send--I don't even read most of what you print!

You are too royalty orientated, fascist minded, and condescending, for me to be contaminated by idling among your diatribes!

Keep trying!

Senator Jay Rockefeller encouraged torture? I seriously doubt it. Last Thursday during a meeting of the Senate intelligence committee Senator Rockefeller said: “I have heard nothing to suggest that information obtained from enhanced interrogation techniques has prevented an imminent terrorist attack.”

McCain said at a campaign rally last month, "I believe that waterboarding is torture and in violation of many laws including the Geneva Convention.”.

And Jonah Goldberg? What a fountain of knowledge he has turned out to be! In an interview with Salon about his new book, Liberal Fascism, he proclaims his stupidity with this:

“Mussolini was born a socialist, he died a socialist, he never abandoned his love of socialism, he was one of the most important socialist intellectuals in Europe and was one of the most important socialist activists in Italy, and the only reason he got dubbed a fascist and therefore a right-winger is because he supported World War I.”

Shows the depth of his knowledge, and this after writing a 400+ page book on fascism!

There just might possibly be another reason Mussolini got dubbed a fascist other than his support for World War I. Maybe it was because Mussolini coined the word “fascismo” and founded the National Fascist Party.

------------------
"President Bush talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years. Maybe a hundred, that's fine with me. I don't think Americans are concerned if we're there for a hundred years, or a thousand years, or ten thousand years." John McCain

"Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002"

With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).

Rockefeller also declined to talk about the briefings, but the West Virginia Democrat's public statements show him leading the push in 2005 [3 years later] for expanded congressional oversight and an investigation of CIA interrogation practices. "I proposed without success, both in committee and on the Senate floor, that the committee undertake an investigation of the CIA's detention and interrogation activities," Rockefeller said in a statement Friday.

...............

Your ad hominem attack on Jonah Goldberg is a logical fallacy, a red herring, designed to divert attention from the debate topic. Does that qualify as "stupidity"? BTW, how many books have you published?

It just seems to me to be a looooong stretch to conclude Rockefeller supports torture from an article which says he declined to comment because everyone had signed an oath of secrecy and that he had called for more Congressional oversight and investigations. In fact, it seems that there was no foundation for your accusation at all, particularly in light of Rockefeller’s repeated public statements about the matter.

Why are my comments about Goldberg an ad hominem attack? They directly addressed the fact that he writes a fantastically stupid book on fascism then reveals in an interview that he doesn’t know why Mussolini is considered a fascist. It seems relevant to question the credentials of a source you brought into the conversation to prove one of your points. An ad hominem attack (appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason) would be like trying to insinuate someone is unqualified to comment on a book if they never wrote one. See? A personal attack without merit to the argument.

------------------
"President Bush talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years. Maybe a hundred, that's fine with me. I don't think Americans are concerned if we're there for a hundred years, or a thousand years, or ten thousand years." John McCain

I missed your reply, but how is fascism relevant to Jonah Goldberg's opinion about facts obtained from the Washington Post's "Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002"? "Rockefeller also declined to talk about the briefings," and his and the others' statements NOW may differ significantly with what actually happened back in 2002. Like Obama's "I NEVER heard any such statements by my dear, dear uncle" that changed to "Of course I heard those words but my white grandmother used bad words, too, and Uncle's no worse than Geraldine and all those other racists." Politicians will do or say anything for votes, as well as change their position on the war in Iraq or waterboarding when it's no longer politically expedient or popular. Are you sure you aren't helping $$$$ with his book?

you were leaving for more intellectual and worldly pursuits (as in your U.N. buddies)? What's the latest scandal there?

Thanks for recommending Jonah Goldberg's book. I'll have to read it to find the CONTEXT of the quote.

___________________________

8-week fetus ("young one") -- Only 30-32 more weeks to go!

“Women who are experiencing an unplanned pregnancy also deserve unplanned joy.”(Feminists for Life)

Just killing time waiting for a plane.

Here is the Salon article with Goldberg’s interview. The context is no mystery, the guy’s an idiot IMO. Enjoy his book though.

We're all fascists now

------------------
"President Bush talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years. Maybe a hundred, that's fine with me. I don't think Americans are concerned if we're there for a hundred years, or a thousand years, or ten thousand years." John McCain

"(BTW, waterboarding hasn't been "lethal.")

You have no way of knowng this. If you were as learned as you attempt to portray, you would know:
1: Waterboarding can and has lead to death by both drowning and cardiac arrest.
2: Detainees have died in our care at Abu Graib
3: We would never admit to killing someone via waterboarding because the administration would not even admit waterboarding occurred until a whistleblower let it slip.

Kevin "Hack" King

Denise, you are full of it. Facts, links to appropriate sites explaining in detail your more intellectually long opinions, and consistent references to the hypocritical statements repeatedly raised and forgotten by most of the bloggers.

I wish I were full of it too.

Hi Git, hope all is well.

Right to the meat. It's interesting how you try to portray yourself as a true independent. Yet your MO is negative always towards democrats and the democratic side of issues (even if the democratic position is pro life in keeping those lives from being tortured). Second MO is general criticism of disappointing republicans with positive comments solely reserved for Rs. And you so often scold me for not jumping on board with the latest GOP smear of democrats. Sorry, but I won't blame the NYC bombing at Times Square on Nancy Pelosi like Ollie North did.

I'm not sure why you, as a true independent, believe that the only people to be tortured by us have been "hardened terrorists." Is it because this administration said so? Do you believe everything your guys (yes, YOUR guys) say? Are all of the people in our country "terrorists?" Why have we processed so few? Why have so many been set free?

If we go to war with one of the countries we've been alienating, like the USSR, can we cram torture back into the bottle? How 'bout Iran? Should we behead because "they" do?

If my kids choose to serve their country, should their boss one day be able to ask them to waterboard detainees, or mock executions, or strip them nude and simulate homosexual acts between them? Why would you argue this point as a man of morals and pro choice only on light bulbs?

Kevin "Hack" King

I'm into protecting the lives of innocent unborn babies and not those of murderous butchering Islamo Facists. Do you equate the two as being the same?

And you so often scold me for not jumping on board with the latest GOP smear of democrats.

Uhh... wrong again. I only scold you when you fail to hold the Democrats to the same standards that you expect the Republicans to follow. So... does it mean that I'm jumping aboard the latest "GOP smear" just because I have issues with some of the alliances that Obama has, or I have concerns with how his wife has never been proud of this country? Or that they live in an expensive home with very high incomes, yet they still can't pay off their student loans after all of these years? Are they operating off of "other people's money" via a subprime mortgage perhaps? Do those concerns make me a GOP smearer?

but I won't blame the NYC bombing at Times Square on Nancy Pelosi like Ollie North did.

No problem... I won't either. Nor will I blame George Bush for the World Trade Center Bombings. Instead I'll blame the Jews like many Democrats have.

I'm not sure why you, as a true independent, believe that the only people to be tortured by us have been "hardened terrorists."

So what you are saying is that we're picking up innocents off the streets of Mosul in hopes of getting lucky with our waterboarding technigues? Dude, I trust the vast majority of our troops and their decisions as to who and when to waterboard. If our troops and our leaders can't be trusted in defending this country without targeting innocents, then we've got bigger problems than worring about whether some AK-47 totin' redneck raghead get's waterboarded or not. At this point, I trust our warriors and their overall decency in valuing human life and attempting to make wise decisions. If I'm wrong on this then it won't matter what I think. Will it? They have the weapons and the training.

Is it because this administration said so? Do you believe everything your guys (yes, YOUR guys) say? Are all of the people in our country "terrorists?" Why have we processed so few? Why have so many been set free?

If my kids choose to serve their country, should their boss one day be able to ask them to waterboard detainees, or mock executions, or strip them nude and simulate homosexual acts between them?

Gee Hack. Wasn't this dealt with already? Where have you been?

Why would you argue this point as a man of morals and pro choice only on light bulbs?

Huh?

Do you believe everything your guys (yes, YOUR guys) say?

That's an easy one to answer. The answer is NO!

Gee... what's a guy to do. I slam the GOP for their hypocricies and inconsistencies and hammer the the Left the same and I still get accused of being partisan. Hack, I'll overlook your confused state of mind on this one a blame it on the fact that you bleed blue.

BTW.... I didn't realize your injuries required surgery. Would you like me to join you in OKC during spring break and see if we can track down your Hispanic demolition derby specialists? I'm not sure what we would do with him if we catch him. If we deport him, he'll just sneak back. It's tough to sue someone without insurance and when all their US holdings are hidden in wads of dead presidents.

I guess that leaves only waterboarding.

________

"I'm Pro Choice - On Light Bulbs

"I'm not sure why you, as a true independent, believe that the only people to be tortured by us have been "hardened terrorists." Is it because this administration said so? Do you believe everything your guys (yes, YOUR guys) say? Are all of the people in our country "terrorists?" Why have we processed so few? Why have so many been set free?"

Always ready to give full benefit of the doubt......to terrorists.

Barack Obama is a human featherball -- a slick, smiling, substance-free empty suit who excites gullible dimwits by repeating the words “change,” “unity,” and “hope” over and over --

The "boss" didn't ask soldiers to "strip them nude and simulate homosexual acts between them." And the soldiers were punished for their CRIMES, as well as "Brig. General Janis Karpinski, commanding officer at the prison [who] was demoted to colonel on May 5, 2005, which also effectively ends her chances for future career advancement."

The relevant Democratic congressional leadership for intelligence — including current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Sen. Jay Rockefeller, and former Sen. Bob Graham — not only knew about the waterboarding but approved and encouraged it.

You said 'The "boss" didn't ask soldiers to "strip them nude and simulate homosexual acts between them." ', but even if you never were in the military, you must realize that these soldiers didn't dream this up on their own. They were following orders. So was Gen. Karpinski. You go on to say that Pelosi, Rockefeller, and Graham were aware of waterboarding, and approved it. Whatever happened to "The Buck Stops Here"???

Oh wait a minute--Harry Truman was a Democrat.

I guess for Republicans, the buck stops outside the Oval Office. Maybe it stops with those foolish homeowners who signed up for interest-only loans and balloon mortgages that were over their ability to pay back.

Unfortunately, we will ALL pay the price for any war crimes that were committed, and we are ALREADY paying the price for the financial shenanigans. I don't know how much stock you own, Denise, but I own a decent chunk of stock (I already paid off my mortgage, so now I put any extra income into stock) and my stock, along with just about ALL stocks, is getting hammered this month--actually it has been going mostly down since November. So again, I must disagree with Git--this is hurting everybody, not just irresponsible people who couldn't handle a home loan.

At least you didn't reduce me to being "smug and unconcerned" this time.

Git gave a good answer about mortgages & stocks (don't sell now -- buy because what goes down usually goes back up). We both believe in individual responsibility.

Where's proof that "these soldiers didn't dream this [the extremes] up on their own," or that those involved weren't punished (not harshly enough, IMO)? They weren't forced to participate.

Research the backgrounds of Lynndie England (known for wearing combat boots and camouflage fatigues while in school) & Charles Graner (the abusive ex-prison guard).

Horrible actions? Yes. Lack of proper supervision. Evidently. Condemn the entire military and all Republicans. No. Have there been re-occurrences?

My annoyance: Dems' double standard.

"The relevant Democratic congressional leadership for intelligence — including current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Sen. Jay Rockefeller, and former Sen. Bob Graham — not only knew about the waterboarding but approved and encouraged it."

Never hear about Democrats' responsibility or complicity. And since neither you nor I are privy to all of the intelligence, to make a judgment without all of the facts would be imprudent.

BTW, I'm sorry about the way you were treated recently. The info didn't come from me. I hope you believe that.

Keeping it short because of time constraints & to placate the whiners on here.

_______________________

8-week fetus ("young one") -- Only 30-32 more weeks to go!

“Women who are experiencing an unplanned pregnancy also deserve unplanned joy.” (Feminists for Life)

I am glad to help you work through your ignorance! Pick up a copy of
Fiasco by Pulitzer prize winning military correspondent Thomas Ricks

It has a lengthy analysis of the development and implementation of the Bush Administration's torture policy. Quite a few senior level civilians in the Dept of Defense and the Office of the President had a hand in creating this disgusting policy!

You have a couple of valid points about the individuals involved in the prisoner abuse, but I still say they committed that abuse in an atmosphere that encouraged it. Plus, it's not just Abu Ghraib, it's also Guantanamo Bay, and various other secret locations. It's a pervasive attitude in the Bush administration that the ends justifies the means, and that the Geneva Conventions are an inconvenience to be worked around.

In any event, I'm not blaming the entire Republican party for what happened. McCain has already come out against ANY form of torture, as I'm sure a number of other Republicans will agree. I was not aware of your contention that "The relevant Democratic congressional leadership for intelligence — including current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Sen. Jay Rockefeller, and former Sen. Bob Graham — not only knew about the waterboarding but approved and encouraged it." However, even assuming that to be true, it doesn't change the rightness or wrongness of torturing prisoners. It's still wrong. As for me, I'm an independent, not a Democrat, so what Pelosi or Rockefeller agreed to does not change my position whatsoever.

Thanks for your last comment, and no, it never occurred to me that you were involved in that at all. Not your style.

Cheers!

What difference does it make who said "waterboard" them?
The administration is responsible for torture.
It is despicable to blame enlisted men, and one woman!

They approve of it, and even vetoed a bill banning it!

River: "In case you haven't noticed, we are in the middle of a mortgage meltdown and financial crisis. This is mostly due to the fiscal policies of the Bush administration."

Git: "Uhhh.... did it ever occur to you that perhaps the mortgage meltdown and financial crisis that you refer to was brought about by greedy, selfish, and stupid financial decisions made by the idiots that actually financed those homes they couldn't afford and then rang up massive credit card debt in trying furnish those mini-castles? I really don't thing your president forced any of these morons into buying a property they were never going to be able to afford. I always wondered how people making much less than I were buying these huge homes. Now I know..... they were never able to afford them in the first place. And this was W's fault?"

Keep up Git. The second wave which financial analysts believe will begin sinking banks is the wave of BUILDERS unable to pay building loans. Your party (the republican party) is so quick to jump on irresponsible individuals (like the irresponsible Walmart employee that foolishly decided to be hit by a truck as conveyed by fellow conservative R. Hobbs), but you are mute as businesses AKA groups of irresponsible people) make atrocious decisions. Yes Git, people find themselves in difficult financial positions. Businesses do as well. Your party of voting steps over the individual generally, and will not speak an ill word of the Countrywide Mortgage companies of the world. Git, I'm very comfortable with "my side" of this debate. I believe free enterprise with no government interference or inspection has lead to well priced lead-laced toys. That's just one example of how people with no faith in government are destined to ruin government.

Extenuating: triple word score under the "X"

Good night

Kevin "Hack" King

ps: I said: "Are all of the people in our country "terrorists?" Why have we processed so few?"

I meant: " Are all of the detainees of our country "terrorists?"

but you are mute as businesses AKA groups of irresponsible people) make atrocious decisions

Uhh... once again Hack. You need to try again. Your knife won't cut. Read further in my conversation with River. You will see where I address the "business groups" involved with the mortgage adjustments going on right now.

Your party of voting steps over the individual generally, and will not speak an ill word of the Countrywide Mortgage companies of the world.

Why don't you do a little research and find out who the mortgage companies tend to fund during election cycles. If might come as a big surprise to you that the Democrats are the biggest beneficiaries of those contribution funds from the likes of Country Wide, American Express, Citicorp and other mortgage finance companies. So go ahead and blame the Republicans some more. Question; does it ever occur to you that much of the unscrupulous behavior that takes place in Washington is bi-partisan? Somehow, I didn't think so.

I'm very comfortable with "my side" of this debate. I believe free enterprise with no government interference or inspection has lead to well priced lead-laced toys. That's just one example of how people with no faith in government are destined to ruin government.

Oh.... as an example you must be referring to our FDA meat inspectors? Or how about our Education Department? Oh yea... our customs and border agents are doing a marvelous job of holding businesses and individuals accountable.

ps: I said: "Are all of the people in our country "terrorists?" Why have we processed so few?"

I meant: " Are all of the detainees of our country "terrorists?"

Be more specific. I'm willing to talk about it but I struggle in jumping from subject to another. I only have so much time and like you I'm starting to find these conversations very unproductive and tiring.

________

"I'm Pro Choice - On Light Bulbs

At least he's not after mine. BTW, hello from Hartford, Conn.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

He would have to cut deep to get your scalp.

How ya doing fellow. We've got to do the lunch thing real soon. I'm thinking we'll crash Muddle's lunchtime one day. With or without his permission. LOL!

I support your doubled up mortgage payments. On my real estate loans, I'm throwning every nickel I can find at them. Not that I can't afford them, but it'll feel great to once again yell out I'M DEBT FREEEEEEEE!!!!!

Gotta go. I've got a another leak in the basement to fix. At least this one consists only of replacing the relief valve attached to my pressure tank.

________

"I'm Pro Choice - On Light Bulbs

"well priced lead-laced toys" -- I thought they were all sold at Wal-Mart.

The toys came from China, a country with a lot of "government interference." Just ask someone who operates a company over there. The problem is not valuing human life: the Christian principle of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. The items that they produce to export are often much safer than the ones for their own citizens. The toys were recalled by the CPSC. And you're blaming Republicans?

The symptoms of chronic lead poisoning include neurological problems, such as reduced cognitive abilities, irritability, insomnia. Just don't chew on pencils or toys and you should be fine. Also, don't buy any product from China if you want to get back at the GOP.

Time to chat with $ageless. $niffy usually logs in about now many nights. We "vampires" don't need much sleep.

since you were the one to bring it up...do you REALLY want to talk about "the Golden Rule" in relationship to government policy? *licks his chops* Just say the word, yes or no. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Our govt who freely trades with repressive China has a Consumer Products Protection Agency, headed by a republican, who DID NOT want her staff or budget increased, even though they could not adequately test the toys sold and given to our kids. REPUBLICANS Denise. Thanks for proving how poorly you guys administer government.

Kevin "Hack" King

First, on the waterboarding. I have no illusions about who we are fighting against, and I've gladly participated in removing some of them from this life. But I still say that if we violate the Geneva conventions, it will come back to haunt us.

The mortgage meltdown was indeed brought about by greed, but not just the buyers. Also the banks who made those loans and the administration who looked the other way, while those banks did some very creative financing to hide the fact that they were making bad loans.

As for the left never voting for McCain, don't be so sure. The hardcore left won't, but I believe there is a majority of moderates like me who might vote Democrat OR Republican, depending on how things go between now and November. You've read several of us express support for McCain, right on this website.

One last thing--I may disagree with you politically, but I appreciate your sense of humor and fairmindedness. Keep it up! You can always play Solitaire later.

{{{{{{{{DELETED & BANNED}}}}}}

You are constantly trying to rob people of their anonymity and security. Knock it off! This is a repeat offense and your cyber hacking is out of bounds. I use my name by choice. Others remain anonymous by choice. It is not your right or job to "expose" bloggers. This will backfire if you continue. I give you my word of that.

Kevin "Hack" King

Party before country or even service branch.

"First it was Iraq was a quagmire and a failure. Slowly but surely things moved forward. When it looked darkest, the surge snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Much to Harry (the surge has failed) Reid's embarrassment.

Once the surge was working, the cry of "but the political benchmarks aren't being met" rang out."

Army, let me help you stay on message. This has nothing to do with a surge, Iraq, war spending. This is about the worst president we have ever experienced authorizing and promoting the torture of human beings in our custody by Americans and our subsidiaries. Period! Can you understand that?

Your former service branch disavows these tactics, but you would rather tie your allegiance to a man and a presidential candidate (who himself is flip-flopping on torture) than a concept of Right and Wrong. That is for you and your soul to deal with, but don't for a minute try to twist this situation into a war debate. I have a heavy heart for what you and your party have allowed us to become.

Oh, and since your "surge" has brought victory, when can we anticipate re deployment of our troops home? Give or take a year?

Clown!

Kevin "Hack" King

"This has nothing to do with a surge, Iraq, war spending. This is about the worst president we have ever experienced authorizing and promoting the torture of human beings in our custody by Americans and our subsidiaries. Period! Can you understand that?"

I didn't realize that Jimmy Carter, the worst president ever, authorized and promoted torture. Go figure!

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Barack Obama is a human featherball -- a slick, smiling, substance-free empty suit who excites gullible dimwits by repeating the words “change,” “unity,” and “hope” over and over --

Very good comments, River.
If McCain should be elected, we may have a human in charge at last---not a machine made up of greedy, vicious, crooked money changers!
I will NEVER understand the right wing attitude about rich people paying taxes, especially when they don't even need it!
I know they say it creates jobs--and it may a few---but sorry ones!

I am an independent who has voted democratic for most years, but McCain was my candidate last time he ran and still is.

You calling the war in Iraq a success is much like Bush calling the solution to his recession by borrowing a "slight blip," and $300 cash will solve it in May!

sacrifice his last barely double digits of support to inflict on human beings in U.S. custody:

(from the Associated Press)

Among the techniques the field manual prohibits are:

_stripping prisoners naked.

_forcing prisoners to perform or mimic sexual acts.

_beating, burning or physically hurting them in other ways.

_subjecting prisoners to hypothermia or mock executions.

_It does not allow food, water and medical treatment to be withheld.

_Dogs may not be used in any aspect of interrogation.

_waterboarding is the most high-profile and contentious method in question.

This is the most corrupt, irresponsible, unaccountable, and WORST example of self-proclaimed Christian leadership of our government that I have ever seen. We actually have a man who says he leads by The Lord's guidance who actually has made other men and women's duties include torturing detainees in our care. Many of these detainees have not and likely will never be charged with any crimes. I hope that I live to see George Bush made accountable for this veto and every previous order to torture human beings that he has ever given. And if that day comes, I'm sure there will be plenty here more than willing to go the way of Iran, North Korea, and even Sadaam's Iraq.

Kevin "Hack" King

The worst thing to do is to make a list of what can't be done to prisoners.
For instance:
Stripping naked: then leave on their hat!
Forcing sexual acts: then hold what direction Mecca is until they do!
Physically hurting them: they don't feel pain like we do--so they don't hurt!
etc.
Torture or any mistreatment doesn't need to be defined.