2 big box stores set for PTC’s 54 W.

Tue, 02/26/2008 - 4:58pm
By: John Munford

Capital City Development has secured tenants for two big box stores at the rear of its property, but CCD principal Doug McMurrain declined to reveal them after Monday night’s meeting of the Peachtree City Planning Commission.

CCD’s 14-acre site is located at the southwest corner of Ga. Highway 54 and Planterra Way, and McMurrain recently won a controversial road abandonment decision from the Peachtree City Council by a 3-2 vote.

But instead of developing the entire shopping center at once, McMurrain is asking for the project to be done in phases. McMurrain said he is negotiating with two grocery store chains to be located directly off the highway and near the entrance to Planterra Ridge subdivision, but as of now no one is signed on.

Planning Commission Chairman Marty Mullin said he didn’t want to see a large grocery store directly off the highway. Rather, he wants to see smaller shops to create a “community” feel for the shopping center.

McMurrain resisted the idea, saying two of his tenants in small shops across the street are having difficult financial times. McMurrain has also said that 20 percent of that retail center — also developed by McMurrain — on the north side of Hwy. 54 is vacant.

McMurrain said one of the grocery stores needs about 20,000 square feet and if that’s the case, he could perhaps “do something” along the line of Mullin’s thinking. The other chain, however, is looking at about 40,000 square feet and that would leave no room for smaller shops along Hwy. 54, McMurrain indicated.

The main reason of putting the grocery store along the highway is the concern of the adjacent Cardiff Park neighborhood, which McMurrain has pledged won’t see, hear or smell the development. The grocery store could violate the smell condition, McMurrain indicated.

It is not yet clear if the city will allow the development to be built in phases since McMurrain can propose up to three buildings with a maximum size each of 50,000 square feet. That triggers the city’s untested special use permit process.

CCD engineer Jim Lowe said the company could leave an undisturbed buffer from the highway on back until the front phase is developed.

The total shopping center will add up to 170,000 square feet of commercial space. Previously McMurrain was limited to about 99,000 square feet, but the City Council voted 3-2 on Feb. 13 to abandon Line Creek Drive and Line Creek Circle on the property in exchange for a payment of at least $500,000 from CCD.

In a development agreement with the council, McMurrain has agreed to a number of concessions, including lowering the grade of the property and significant buffering to protect residents in Cardiff Park. In return, the city has agreed not to object when CCD applies for a traffic light to serve the development.

That light would be between the current traffic lights on Hwy. 54 for Planterra Way and MacDuff Parkway.

Responding to other issues raised by the planning commission, McMurrain said he could redesign the parking lots into five areas rather than the current three. McMurrain added that he has retained the same landscape architect for his project that was responsible for the look and feel of The Avenue shopping center.

“I know with the three (stores) in the back, I can give you what you want,” McMurrain said.

Mullin said the front of the building along the highway should face the highway and not the interior of the development where the parking lot will be. He added that if a large building is erected directly off the highway, citizens will complain that the developer got exactly what he wanted.

McMurrain said the interest on the property is costing him $40,000 a month.

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Submitted by Jones on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 11:21pm.

Why should the developer having four vacant shops and $40,000 in monthly interest be the city's problem? Force that idiot to built it the PTC way!

Submitted by R. Butler on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 1:18pm.

Notwithstanding the issue of approving the 3-2 vote clearing the sale of the roads in question, I beleive Mr. McMurrain's present plan should all but put to rest the idea that CCD ever had any real intention of developing that property within the limits of the existing zoning. Admissions made in concert with this current proposal make it clear that he would be unable to generate the return he expected if he were to develop that property consist with the existing limits. He acknowledges that the small retail complexes across the street are sitting with 20% vacency rates. And in light of that, he wants to build "large stores" as part of a phase one and an undermined amount of time before finishing the project.

Certainly, the high vacancy rate of small retail shops in the West Village could not have been a fact that the City Council was unaware of. Yet, Mayor Lodgson, Mr. Boone and Ms. Plunkett still agreed to sell city owned roads in the first place. They cannot now be surprised at where this project is going.

Despite the encouraging results of the last election, it remains evident that development interests will always trump residents interests in the City Council--at least until the next election cycle. Despite the now clear evidence that our police station was designed and built in a substandard manner, I have yet to hear our Mayor speak out in some measure of support for the tax-payers. Not even a comment that they would ensure the city never spends another public dollar on any project associated with Don Cobb and Associates or Leslie Construction. Instead, we receive shrugs and comments from the city attorney that we have no legal recourse. And as citizens and tax-payers, we still do not know the full details behind the Tennis Center settlement.

One has to wonder at what point our opinions will actually matter to the majority of our elected city officials.

Submitted by sageadvice on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 2:33pm.

This developer is no fool (or his bosses aren't), once two big boxes are installed, can you imagine what rent can be demanded of Hooters, Pawn Shops, Title Loans, Massage Parlors, Nail Joints, and Gas Stations that will be built in Phase ll? Need another liquor store, too!

Submitted by Jones on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 8:51pm.

Harold Logsdon shouldn’t have been elected in the first place. His monument to ugly retail clutter will probably be the worse thing we’ve seen in a long time. I pity anyone who has to commute to Coweta County.

Submitted by Spyglass on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 9:23pm.

That the prior administration approved?

Or the HUGE Home Depot or Walmart that the even earlier administration approved?

Possibly up to 50K square feet/store pales in comparison to either of developments mentioned above.

Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:24pm.

This will not be a habit from me, but I was looking to see if there were any comments on my other post and saw your post. I will post this comment then leave the conversation to the Citizen Bloggers.

Target, Walmart and Home Depot were not approved by earlier Councils willingly. They were forced in by developer actions in court.

The Big Box ordinance was created to stop building Big Boxes. The Special Exception clause to allow Big Boxes was added in 2006. Prior the cap was 32,000 absolute.

The CCD development, if approved, will be the first willing allowed development of a Big Box.

The Special Exception clause needs to be removed and will be, either in this Council or early in the next Council in 2010.

Please visit the forum in my sig. Councilman Sturbaum and I will periodically be posting information there for public consumption and comment.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:50pm.

Target, Walmart and Home Depot were not approved by earlier Councils willingly. They were forced in by developer actions in court.
===============================================================

That's totally wrong. Maybe if you had gone to some council meetings at that time, especially the Wal-Mart/Home Depot ones, you'd know.

==========================================
The Big Box ordinance was created to stop building Big Boxes. The Special Exception clause to allow Big Boxes was added in 2006. Prior the cap was 32,000 absolute.
==========================================

That's also wrong. Did everyone who voted for you realize you had no idea about recent history in PTC? Seriously.

If you are trying to say that you mean "well, if council hadn't approved them, they would have lost in court," well, DUH! Developers have property rights too.


Submitted by Spyglass on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:39pm.

I'm not sure you can just turn down any and everything that comes before Council and be considered doing a good job.

You mention a cap prior to 2006 of 32K, ("Prior the cap was 32,000 absolute"). How did the Kedron Kroger, the Braelin Kroger and KMart the Wilshire Publix to name just a few get approved? I'm not sure you are correct with this statement.

It appears that if you were in charge from day one, PTC would be without a Grocery Store of any size. I'm not sure you or I would like that. Refer to my point about just voting NO to anything that crosses your desk. I still think the compromise of 50K square feet Max was a good one, noting the location of said property in question.

bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 11:28pm.

According to PTC the Publix at Wilshire was the last big box to be approved BEFORE the ordinance went into effect. By a matter of a few weeks.

The Target site plan was accepted by the PTC Planning Commission BEFORE the ordinance was even thought of leaving the city with no legal options. We're talking about the King Bob administration here.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 6:41am.

So was Wal-Mart/Home Depot, and there was never any 32,000 absolute cap nor was there any court action by the developer, RAM. Just like recently, that was also a 3-2 vote.

I think Mr. Haddix stayed up too late last night because he's got his facts mangled on the big boxes and the so-called "big box ordinance." There also wasn't a time in PTC where the only grocery store was a Baby Kroger either. Kroger's first store in town was the Braelinn super Kroger. What is now the baby Kroger has been several incarnations and was likely back then known as Big Star.


Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 9:53am.

The Baby Kroger location was the biggest. There have been four different stores at that location since we lived here, Big Star first, then A&P, Harris Teeter and finally Kroger. More recent residents would not have a clue where I was talking about if I said Big Star in example.

There was also two different smaller grocery stores in the Aberdeen Shopping Center. A&T Mart and the first, whose name I forget at the moment.

Pathways was the original developer of the Walmart area but in the issues leading up to being allowed to be built RAM undercut them and took over the development. The Pathway plan proposals were much nicer than what we ended up with.

Yes, there were legal issues against PTC.

And there were legal issues with Target. We lost.

My intent was never to get into a line by line presentation nor will I. The point was those developments were unwanted and came in by legal force, bottom line.

Yes, the Big Box Ordinance came about as a reaction to those Big Boxes being forced in and there was a cap at 32,000 and the Special Exception was added. It was added March of 2006 I believe. The original 32,000 and 150,000 was established from university research done on where Big Box and Super Center impacts exist due to becoming regional and not local shopping. If I am wrong here then Ted Meeker and some others at City Hall are wrong as well, including members of two past Councils.

This is my last comment. The floor is yours.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


mudcat's picture
Submitted by mudcat on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 8:13pm.

Thanks for the history lesson on Big Star/Baby Kroger. That was correct.

This was not
"Pathways was the original developer of the Walmart area but in the issues leading up to being allowed to be built RAM undercut them and took over the development. The Pathway plan proposals were much nicer than what we ended up with."

The Pathways (nee PCDC) involvement in the current WalMart site was minimal. They never owned the land, they never had the confidence of the Huddleston family and certainly not the confidence of Mr. Bob who trusted Floy and Joel who steered him away from PCDC. The PCDC "plan" was a pipe dream on the adjacent land which ignored the WalMart site and had big boxes on what is now McDuff Parkway (owned by Floy). Reason was that the "plan" led to their property behind what is now Cedar Croft and an eventual opening to Hwy 74. Hope was that they could get a connection to 74. Floy was ok with it, but PCDC had to get the private landowners above Cedar Croft to go along with it and they sent their 2 most poorly-equipped people to negotiate with the landowners. They were refused. That was in 1987.

The issues leading up to the RAM proposal were that the Huddleston heirs could not agree on several better plans because of infighting and greed. They stalled, they had the zoning, they won - accidentally - by waiting.

Now, 20 years later - we have what PCDC wanted, albeit with different and certainly more intelligent participants.


NUK_1's picture
Submitted by NUK_1 on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 10:48am.

Wal-Mart/Home Depot was before any ordinance and there wasn't a cap of 32K before that ordinance. I think you need to take a look at what you first wrote because it says that there was a 32K limit BEFORE the ordinance existed.

Also, there was no litigation over Wal-Mart/Home Depot being built, something I'm sure members of the Council at the time do remember as well as Rick Lindsey the City Attorney at the time. The legal issues were that if it wasn't approved, RAM was going to sue, which isn't any different than what happens most of the time when a developer owns property already zoned for what they want to build and the City denies it.


Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 11:11am.

I said before the Special Exception the cap was 32,000 absolute.

That meant in the Big Box Ordinance before the Special Exception Clause was added in 2006. Lindsey wrote the Big Box Ordinance and Meeker modified it in 2006 because Council wanted flexibility to allow Big Boxes, which gave us the Hyde loss and our current issues at 54W.

There was legal actions behind the scenes on Walmart. No, not full court action but legal issues, during which time RAM took the project from Pathways.

Not one of the brightest times in PTC history and it was one of the motivations for the Big Box Ordinance.

This needs fixed and will be either in this Council or the next. The Special Exception Clause needs to be removed and the ordinance returned to 32,000 tops.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 11:24pm.

Never said I would turn down everything that comes before Council. There is a big distinction between growth and Smart Growth. Retail Big Boxes are not smart Growth.

Court forced is forced acceptance, not approval. Semantics but true.

Check out the national statistics on Big Boxes and super centers. All are negative in all impact studies. Our highest crime areas are at the Walmart Center, Target and The Avenues.

Look at the national trends and trends within Georgia. It is to Village and Downtown and away from Big Boxes, super centers and malls.

As for grocery stores, they are not in the same category as stores like Walmart or Target. Different dynamics and demographics, purposes and economic, traffic and crime impacts. Crime went up when Target was added to the already existing Kedron Kroger area, in example.

If you wish to equate them and not see any distinctions, that is your right.

We moved here when the population was 13,600 and the Baby Kroger was the largest grocery store. We drove for major shopping and like others was very happy with it.

Yes, we knew PTC would grow but it had a plan then that has good. It got lost along the way and needs to be returned to as much as possible.

Build Big Boxes, tall buildings, high density and all the rest and we become what many of us moved here to escape.

This is my opinion, what I ran on, promised to pursue in office and was elected to do.

Hope that answers some questions, even if does not change your mind. Anything else said would be argument.

As for Nuk's comments, I suggest you do some research on the subject matter independent of those comments.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


Submitted by skyspy on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 11:47am.

First of all thank you for listening to the residents of PTC.

Does the city council have any plans to draw new buisness to our city to fill all of the empty stores?

Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 12:47pm.

Doug and I are working in those directions in joint and separate projects. I elected to be liason to the Development Authority for such goals.

On retail we are trying and understand those spaces need filled and we need good employers moving here. But it is difficult in these economic times.

Getting all enabled and moving is in the works. Success will depend on backing and time.

With no disrespect to The Citizen, it would be much more effective to add comments to the specialized forum in my sig line. Those conversations can be ongoing, developed and not get lost by falling off the main page.

That does not mean don't discuss here. It just means being more effective long term for us. An issue of different functions.

Thanks for the comments and I hope we are providing a way for PTC to be more informed and involved.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


Submitted by Spyglass on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 10:56am.

I understand your positions. I also don't understand you saying Grocery Stores are different than most big boxes. Grocery Stores close too. We almost had it happen just a few months back. Ride toward Newnan on Hwy 34 and you'll find another empty Grocery Store at Thomas Crossroads. I have a sneaky feeling that we will be dealing with an empty big box at Braelin soon, albeit, not a Grocery Store. I hope I'm wrong on this one.

I would hope you would look at each development with it's own merits and vote accordingly. That's all anyone can ask.

I'm just debating the merits of the approved zoning on the CCD tract, and we apparently disagree. I felt it was a good compromise, you did not. It happens.

Thanks for your efforts, none the less.

Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 11:44am.

Grocery stores are not regional stores.

Maybe these will help you understand the distinctions and why Big Boxes are bad and successful communities are moving away from them.

Big Box Tool Kit

New Rules Project

Indeed we don't need another grocery store. We already have six. It concerns me as well.

Our current development stance has dropped us at least 60 places in Best Places to Live. Suwanee, in example, with its moving toward Village and Downtown has moved up to number 7.

I am just trying to point out retail is 15% down nationally and already 8% down in PTC. Adding more footage to a 22 year inventory just makes it worse and Big Boxes more so. We need to minimize footage.

Truth is small is better and big is worse for a community, tax and otherwise. And as much as I don't want it, a gas station would have some of the least negative impacts.

Word I have is that McMurrain has a site for sale on the other side of 54. It is advertised as a good gas station location.

So think about it, add this to multiple past comments by him and those out working to get the Big Boxes that he has to have Big Boxes to be able to build. What can he really do if he does not get Big Boxes with sites still never occupied across the street with more going empty? Add yet more small sites to sit empty?

No. We don't know how it will all work out except if he gets Big Boxes, then he absolutely will build.

He talks about the cost per month in interest, how long he has been working on this and how he has to do something soon. If small was good he could have done that over a year ago, so why is he still waiting to get Big Boxes and paying $40,000 a month in the mean time?

Please be assured I do not take these issues or decisions lightly. I have sunk a lot of time and effort into coming to my position.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


Submitted by Spyglass on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 1:41pm.

They will approve anything and everything. Traffic is horrible at best, especially getting down 85 into Atlanta.

You can have the rankings, to a person, everyone that comes and visits at my home is envied at what PTC has to offer.

Keep up the good work. I do agree, smaller is better.

Submitted by R. Butler on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:57am.

OK- Besides the Mayor, Ms. Plunkett and Mr. Haddix, who in Peachtree City didn't see this one coming. Duh!

So we have now migrated from "high" end retail stores modelled after "The Avenue" to a plan which starts with two grocery stores and the remainder of a project to be built "in phases".

Maybe the reason we keep getting mixed up with Mr. McMurrain on the issue of a "development that fits into the community" is that we are talking about two different communities. As residents, we talk of community in the sense of Peachtree City. Mr. McMurrain seems to be thinking more along the lines of Sandy Springs.

Submitted by sageadvice on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 5:17pm.

Such comments as "like the avenue," are certainly not unusual for a developer losing $500,000 interest on his loans!
Actually, I hate to go into the "avenue," due to so many odd shopping stores, and the getting in and out! Not to mention the special signs.

He would build portable Johns in there if they made money!

Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 2:03pm.

I sincerely believe you did not mean me but Mr. Boone here.

Councilman Sturbuam and I have forseen this since last year and have so told the other members of Council since October of last year.

Please visit the forum in the link in my sig line and see what has been said more recently on this issue.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


Submitted by R. Butler on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 2:47pm.

You are indeed correct. You had my vote in November as well. I was referring to Mr. Boone. I will attempt to edit the original post to reflect this.

Don Haddix's picture
Submitted by Don Haddix on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 3:06pm.

No problem at all. Happens to all of us.

And thank you for your vote. Very appreciated.

Don Haddix
PTC Councilman
Post 1
donhaddix.com


Submitted by Spyglass on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:55am.

Just from the size of the store, etc. I can't think of much else it could be, and still be a grocery store.

I know they have said they don't want to be here, but stores do that all the time to increase their leverage with developers.

I'll also add who cares how much interest he's paying? And how does it come into play regarding requested zonings etc? I don't think I've ever read that in any article anywhere about zoning meetings etc. with any other developer/development. I've seen it more than once regarding this developer.

Submitted by sageadvice on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 3:37pm.

Do you suppose the interest the developer is paying waiting on the Ok for the big boxes, is being paid to a local bank that is not a chain?

poipendicular's picture
Submitted by poipendicular on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 1:40pm.

A Trader Joe's would be better than say another Kohl's or Dick's Sporting Goods. While I would be overjoyed with a Trader Joe's out here, I still don't believe we need more retail development. Why did we have to let McMurran have his way? So he has to pay $40k a month on his interest only loan. That is his problem. How many big box or even little retail stores can this county support? We don't have the density of East Cobb or upper Fulton.

On a side note, I was in Marietta the other day, and while there, I shopped at TJ's. It is a small one too, the CVS next to it was bigger. As usual the manager informed me that there are plans for a TJ near PTC, no idea when of course. Until then, those of us who enjoy shopping at TJ's will still shop at the Midtown store.


Hoosier Fan's picture
Submitted by Hoosier Fan on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 12:58pm.

...That it's not the World's Largest 7/11!


Submitted by skyspy on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:58am.

Trader Joes, wouldn't that be nice.

Submitted by Spyglass on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 11:10am.

If the truth was known, the HUGE development at Hwy 34/54 and Fischers Road has made this development in PTC a very tough sell. Big Box, which 40-50K isn't all that big, or not.

Traders Joes is by far the best case scenario. But alas, they would probably kill the little Kroger. Sad

Submitted by skyspy on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 11:15am.

I don't know if it would kill baby Kroger. There will be many times when baby Kroger will be closer and more convenient. I think Trader Joes would do well here. There prices are not as high as Harry's was.
I think Joes would be a better fit for people here.

Fingers crossed.

Mike King's picture
Submitted by Mike King on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:53am.

The quote by Mr McMullen is prolific in that he can give us what we want with the big boxes situated at the back of the property.

What no one except Mr Sturbaum And Mr Haddix, seems to realize is that the citizens of Peachtree City loudly proclaimed last fall is that we did not want additional big boxes. It seems the plurality of the Council and the developer know far better than we mere citizens what is tuly best for our town. Further, they have gone beyond the pale, in my opinion, in forfeiting the city streets to make this accomodation.

For six months to a year we will have construction taking place and when completed a new traffic light to add to the existing traffic woes. For the next five maybe ten years the new will have worn off this venture and business will have declined to the point of one or more big box closures and urban blight will have set in. The residents of Cardiff Park and Planterra Ridge will have become so frustrated at the continued decline of their home values that many will have moved away and become absentee owners.

Of course this is mere speculation on my part, but by then perhaps the current majority of our council will have retired and moved away so as not to have to be reminded of their shortsightedness.


Submitted by sageadvice on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 3:35pm.

This is not shortsightedness, it is deliberate. More and more income to the city for expansion of the harem purposes!
Remember we must continue the manufacture of useless jobs since we don't have enough good ones left!

Submitted by R. Butler on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 11:17am.

The part I like the best is waiting for when the City Attorney will advise the council that since they sold the developer the roads and took his money knowing what was coming, Peachtree City would not have a particulary strong case should we get hauled into court after denying this plan.

Quote of the day from the planning meeting: Mullin added that "...if a large building is erected directly off the highway, citizens will complain that the developer got exactly what he wanted."

Submitted by sageadvice on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 5:29pm.

Did the city (PTC) pay the $500,000 from the city land sale In Wilkesmoore to the Tennis Center debt?
Or will they have to build a new police station? Maybe do a repair on old one, costing twice as much as it did to build? Who is the new contractor and architect on the re-build?

Submitted by R. Butler on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 1:32pm.

I am not a lawyer, but I just have problems with the idea that we have no legal recourse against the designer and builder of the Police Station. You would think that just filing a suit might prompt the idea of a settlement with the parties responsible. It woundn't be a frivious suit either, given the fact that the defects were so deeply embedded in the project that they could not found until the building was practically gutted. From a business standpoint, it is a pretty tepid advertisement for a business to have to argue that the substandard design and construction are not material to the fact that the defects were discovered too late to bring a lawsuit. It might sound good legally, but isn't the kind of language future customers want to hear.

I seem to recall after Hurricane Andrew in South Florida, the city attorney and city zoning inspector were targeting builders who failed to build to code even though the defects were hidden for years prior to being discovered.

Submitted by sageadvice on Thu, 02/28/2008 - 2:37pm.

Don't you wonder who signed "contracts" with these people that they weren't guaranteeing the buildings at least twenty years?

The same related bunch maybe who sold the land to us in the first place---the PTC Mafia!

Submitted by PTC Avenger on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 10:59pm.

I am going to boycott these new stores and encourage all citizens to do the same.

Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 11:05pm.

Look at all of the many, many empty stores in PTC. It's not like we have to ask for a boycott, most stores and restaurants seem to go out of buisness on their own. We don't have to encourage it.

That is most buisnesses except y-not, but they have harold and bernies tab so that would float any bar for a long time.

Submitted by John M on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 9:40pm.

How another grocery store next to the entrance of Planterra? The mayor and his buddies are fools.

Submitted by skyspy on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 10:56pm.

GGGGEeeeeezzzz, mcBULLY and his drunk buddy harold did something for us afterall.

Now the drug task force will have the perfect spot for all of their drug busts....right here in PTC. (as if the walley-trash wasn't enough)
It will be poetic when they flee the drug stings and run through the neighborhoods next door to escape the cops. I'm sure the cardiff people already had thought about those consequences when they tried to help their little buddy. Yes?

Refresh my memory, how much are the cardiff, and planterra homes worth now?? Maybe some of the druggies will buy them to shorten their commute to "work". (using the four lettered word "work" very loosely)

Not one but 2 ......that's rich.

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