Preachers

wulfman's picture

Anyone remember when preachers had to actually work a full time job and perform their church duties after work?

I wonder if the government suddenly passed a law that limited a preacher earnings to $10,000.00 or less, how many preachers would there actually be left?

It seems to me preaching has become a big business. Not just our favorite TV preachers such as Swaggert, Dollar, Hiin, Hagee, Osteen etc... But all preachers of large churches, some making six figures or better. Not including furnished cars, houses etc...

When I am traveling and can’t attend the little Baptist church that I have attended since my youth, I favor watching Brother Hinn and Brother Dollar.

Brother Hinn will heal me and Brother Dollar will make me rich, I just need to keep sending my tides. A person can’t ask for more than that.

I must admit I am a little behind with my tide to Brother Dollar but I will be sending 4 boxes this week.

I often wondered why our little church couldn’t grow and become a large church.

Well I finally figured it out, we don’t have a gym or a ball field and our choir doesn’t know any contemporary, rock or rap Christian songs.

We do know Rock of Ages if that counts toward Christian rock music.

Our preacher works forty hours a week and performs his duties after hours.

His sermons aren’t sugar coated to conform to the congregation wishes.

He uses fire, hell and brimstone a lot in his sermons.

Well I guess we will just be a little church forever.

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muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 3:06pm.

I really want to see Crapflo Dollar and the others go down.

As for preachers in general, it has been a very, very long time since I have heard a preacher say anything genuinely helpful. So many are spouting pop psychology (e.g., Joel Osteen) from the pulpit, and have little to say about what it means--or ought to mean--to be a Christian in today's world. Few that I have known have had the kind of education that would equip them to say anything interesting, having opted instead for a smattering of "practical ministries" courses in seminary: Church administration, church growth, the How-tos of Evangelism, etc., etc.

It is these contemporary fashionable preachers who have finally discouraged me from church. There was a time when the pastor was rightly regarded as the resident theologian. Today, the typical pastor divides his duties between managerial work as a kind of CEO of his local church, and therapist.

I envy my friend in Wisconsin who has, for years, been a member of a small congregation that is attached to the UW campus. The minister was trained in classics before he turned to theology, and his sermons are typically thought-provoking and rich in content--definitely worth hearing. And the congregation consists of many people--some involved at various levels at the university--who are keenly interested in the idea of cultivating a "Christian Mind"--coming to articulate and implement the full intellectual and practical implications of a Christian worldview.

Other than this sort of a context, I do much better with a book over listening to a sermon. Give me Chesterton's Everlasting Man or C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory, any day over Joel Osteen preaching on (I am not making this up) "Your Perfect Weight."

-----------------

Grandchild # 5 (the local)


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 12:21am.

If our little church ever closes the doors, I am afraid I would be like you just not go.

I have visited a few churches.

But haven't been impressed by the sermons.

I saw a book that you coauthored advertised on line. I would purchase it, But I am not sure I am smart enough to understand it.

How’s the Mrs.?

We are praying for her speedy recovery.

Hang in there it will get better.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 8:02am.

You still use hymnals? Cool! Do people remember the names Frances Havergal, Isaac Watts and Charles Wesley? Do they sing "When I Survey" or "Alas, And Did My Savior Bleed" or "Fairest Lord Jesus" ("Beautiful Savior")?

Was there a great couple at your church who moved back to California two or three years ago?

-----------------

"The Muddles"


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 1:38pm.

We still sing those songs, the music is a little different, same words, same meaning.Smiling I like them. It helps my son appreciate them.

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:56am.

Hmmmm.....

Were the authors listed as "Muddle and [Other Name]?"

Else, I'm not nearly as anonymous here as I thought! Eye-wink

If it is the one I think you mean, then it isn't really co-authored. The publisher took something I wrote and something that PC wrote and then blended excerpts of the two into a kind of study guide.

They did this without consulting me!

I really don't much like the result. I had nothing to do with writing the discussion questions, etc., and they seem to take things in a direction not really intended by the original work.

Oh well.

-----------------

"The Muddles"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 9:21am.

Hi Muddle,

Sorry for the late reply, I had a production meeting to attend.

Yes,

The book by PC and Muddle was the one I was referring to.

But I did see another book advertised that was authored by Muddle.

Do you know a R.Z?

My church is on the North side of Atlanta.

As for the songs that you asked about, Alas, And Did My Savior Bleed,
Yes the other two I’m not sure of.

I think our hymn books are like 1950’s editions; I will check and see if the other songs are in them.

Sorry don’t know anyone that moved to CA.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 9:58am.

OK. I was guessing that you were a part of a church hyere in Fayette that sort of fits your description of your church. (This would also have explained your knowing my ID, the book(s), etc.) The "Californians" I had in mind were, of course, members of this local church.

Yes, the RZ thing is related to the other that you saw. PC edited the series of these booklets several years ago. It's a good series, as PC employed some good folks (all but one Smiling) as authors. These are written on a popular level so that non-philosophers can understand what's going on. They have been translated into several languages worldwise, which is pretty amazing. (That's weird, because mine relies on a lot of humor and illustrations that really presuppose American pop-culture. How will someone in, say, Bangladesh, understand my reference to Bill and Ted's dialogue with Socrates ("All we are is dust in the wind, dude")?)

IVP took excerpts from mine and PCs, slapped a title on it (with which I had nothing to do), added some discussion question, etc., and aimed it at study groups.

It's still a mystery how you managed to unmask Muddle.

Tell your music guy that you need to pull out the hymn "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" by Isaac Watts.

-----------------

"The Muddles"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 10:48am.

Muddle,

(It's still a mystery how you managed to unmask Muddle.)

No mystery, A Wulfman has big ears.

Be assured that I respect your desire to remain anonymous.

I know the real names of several people on this site.

I haven’t and would never disclose a person’s real name to anyone on or off this site.

How’s the Mrs.? I hope she is getting better.

We’ll keep her in our prayers.


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 4:01pm.

Well, I will be glad to introduce you to my father-In-in- law in heaven, he's a great preacher!Smiling I loved him so----

Now, tears- I miss him so, it's been 14 years and it seems like yesterday, he's there with my mom and sister and Rich Mullins.Smiling

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


Submitted by sageadvice on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 4:10pm.

Confusing!
And you didn't want to be in his church?

BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 4:58pm.

Sir, what do you know about Christians? Well, use the brain God gave you- my father-in-law as all preachers had a different preaching style, God spoke through my father-in-law to reach the lost- and alot were saved.Smiling I admire my father-in-law, I cherish him, I RESPECT him.

God makes us all different, I grew up with the style of preaching he did, we never lived in his hometown when we were married, my husband was not from the same town I was.

We have growing periods that take different changes in our journey with Christ, you of course don't have a clue what I am talking about-

You know what you are a real bully on the internet just like with Hutch but I know in real life you are a whimp.

Go whimp somewhere else! No more discussions with you about my father-in-law, he knew I adored him and that is all that matters- he adored me.

BTW- I am still praying for you- "Hope Changes Everything" I believe this with all my heart!

_______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 4:03pm.

_
I can't believe it';s you- don't leave- stay on a little - have a few things to say.

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 4:04pm.

_Penguin stay on.Sad

_____________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 1:30pm.

___

First I am married to a P.K.- Southern Baptist Pastor's son. With that I must say my father-in-law lives in heaven now.Smiling

During his time on earth he had a small church and worked as a School Teacher- this is what he felt God called him to do. Did he get rich preaching no, but that is not why he did it, people without Jesus is why he did it.

His church had it's own style- while I loved him dearly this style was not my style, nor my husbands. The doctrine belief YES! That is what is important worked as a school teacher to make a difference again in a person's life. I admire him.

One question what is wrong with a Pastor of a large church making let's say a hundred thousand dollars a year? The world makes more than this- Is it wrong for God's people to have wealth- maybe now think God gives them that salary to help someone else.

I think you are being judgemental here- Yes, I agree some are in it to make money- that is not right.

But with that being said is it okay for Doctors, Lawyers, CEO's to make their money.

If your church is small, then if your pastor is not happy then I think God is saying listen hear me- this is where I want you.

My father-in-law always had small churches, did not complain not once.

We need to stop complaining and help our Pastors build the kingdom for Christ, it's not only his job, it's ours as a Christian.

All I am saying do you have to be dirt poor to be a pastor, if you make money you are not sincere about it?

If you want your church to grow, how about showing God's love instead of hell and brimstone all the time.

Now, before you jump me, yes there is a time for hell and brimstone, but done out of love.

Look to the way Jesus when He was on earth, who did he hang with?

That's how you build your church. They will know we are Christians by our love.

Btw- morals be sure and think about the person you vote for: what are their morals.

____________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 11:42pm.

Answers to your questions:

I was brought up in the Southern Baptist church my grandfather was a preacher and two of my uncles are preachers. Our church is not a P.K. Southern Baptist Church.

Our pastor and congregation are quite happy being a small church.

We have no use for rock, contemporary and rap Christian music.

Were just fine singing hymns out of our 30 year old hymn books.

One question what is wrong with a Pastor of a large church making let's say a hundred thousand dollars a year?

Nothing if he is sincere and not just in it for the money.

Most of them are only in it for the money and if the church were to cut their salaries to almost nothing they would be off to another church before you could blink an eye.

Then we get to the TV preachers which live like kings and fleece their congregation promising everything from instant healing to making them rich. Sadly they target the poorest and least educated among us

Have you ever heard the old saying if he’s a preacher the woods are full of them?

The sad fact the woods are full of them.

The election,

Moral candidate?

Did someone new jump into the race today?

If not I haven’t seen one.


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 2:08am.

__

Now you made me laugh, a P.K. is a preacher's kid. Next answer no, he was not a wild thing.

I don't have a problem with hymns, but I do like praise and worship, we are all of different personalities so we have different styles of worship. What some would say what some call hymns are mere country gospel songs.

My brother-in-law plays for a Southern Gospel Group- I like it if Russ Taff is singing it, or Michael English.Smiling I like hymns if I know what I am saying and there's not too many the, words I don't know what I am saying- alot of hymns were written during the depression- and can sound really down. Why Wulfman, I have reason to celebrate. Now, Fanny Crosby songs brings tears to my eyes, I read her story- find a copy= great book.

I'm still Southern Baptist so we don't get too out of control, well sometimes.Smiling I like rock music, so thank God for praise and worship, and CCM songs, see that's not for you= the southern gospel and hymns are for you and my brother-in-law. I do like some Gaither shows- if they have Russ Taff on them.Smiling

I think if we are born again- I am sure you have heard of that one- honestly some haven't- we will go to heaven. I plan on being there.

All I am saying is there are some pastors that make money, I think God knows who can handle the money in the way that He wants- meaning giving and helping others etc.

Not all pastors preach for the right reason, but God is Big and He takes care of that.

I love my father-in-law- I know he's happy in heaven, singing praises to God. I sure do miss him- I do remember happy times when we would visit and the service was blessed by God in such a sweet way.

Me, I can worship God with either style- God is worthy to be praised.

I will pray for your church and you pray for mine. My father-in- law would not have had it any other way- God called him to be a pastor of a small church.

Sweet memory- my father-in law would get up before the chickens, not me, I love my sleep and so did everyone else in the family. Well. one morning my son a baby had me up and we stayed several days with them, he always went to his workshop- and while I thought he was working- I found out from a neighbor after he died- that was what you called his prayer closet.

I miss him, my mother-in-law gave me the bible he used when he preached, that will be passed down to my son= the best gift I got from him was his love and how he showed God's love daily in the small and big things.Smiling

Hey, now Wulfman you tube some Kirk Franklin- I know you have seen mine on here- we are having church. He has a book, it's great.

click here Kirk

click one of my favorites

click this has helped me with my mom, sisters, and father-in-laws not being here.

click how could I not like this.

So, see I like both.Smiling This is what you would hear in my father-in-laws church and also mine.Smiling This does make me weep- the blood will never loose it's power.

My In-laws did a great job with my husband- he's the best- we have been married 27 years- to God be the glory.

Pray about your moral candidate I know God will tell you.

_____________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 8:03am.

Good Morning BPR,

I guess you don’t know, when the letters P.K or used in front of Southern Baptist it usually means they are members of Promise Keepers.

I have no doubt that your father in-law was a good preacher.

As for the first three videos I have absolutely no interest in that type music.

The last video was spot on.

As for a moral candidate sadly, I haven’t seen one.


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 1:47pm.

I know about Promise Keepers, and yes they are some in our church.

I think you need to listen to the lyrics, how in this world could you not like "Praise The Lord"- the lyrics are what's important.

According to the bible how did David praise God? Hey, give God your best praise- He loves it.Smiling

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 5:32pm.

I have no interest in Brother Franklin’s or anyone else’s contemporary, rock or rap Christian music.

Some how I think David’s praise to god with a bunch of rag tag musicians sounded better than Brother Franklin’s best talking song. The man can’t sing.

If you choose to listen to it more power to you.

Yeah, I voted but it wasn’t for Huckabee.


Denise Conner's picture
Submitted by Denise Conner on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 5:47pm.

"I have no interest in Brother Franklin’s or anyone else’s contemporary, rock or rap Christian music."

You've just uttered fightin' words in today's spiritually anemic / intellectually deficient / theologically ignorant culture. THANKS! Smiling

Actually, David was quite an accomplished musician and the emphasis of his music (the Psalms) was on God, not himself -- his gyrations, his self-aggrandizing vocal style, sensual music, etc. He didn't copy the style of degenerates: the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, et al.

______________________

”Music and the Brain” -- If you “know how to read” Eye-wink (shaking my head)

Albert Einstein is recognized as one of the smartest men who has ever lived. A little known fact about Einstein is that when he was young he did extremely poor in school. His grade school teachers told his parents to take him out of school because he was "too stupid to learn" and it would be a waste of resources for the school to invest time and energy in his education. The school suggested that his parents get Albert an easy, manual labor job as soon as they could. His mother did not think that Albert was "stupid". Instead of following the school's advice, Albert's parents bought him a violin. Albert became good at the violin. Music was the key that helped Albert Einstein become one of the smartest men who has ever lived. Einstein himself says that the reason he was so smart is because he played the violin. He loved the music of Mozart and Bach the most. A friend of Einstein, G.J. Withrow, said that the way Einstein figured out his problems and equations was by improvising on the violin.

[It's a good thing that his mother didn't hand him an electric guitar and saturate his mind with rock music. Smiling ]


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Thu, 02/07/2008 - 6:55am.

Hi Denise,

Yeah,

Guilty as charged.

But I hope people will forgive me when they realize that I’m stupid and can’t read.

I Liked the Einstein article; I played the bass drum in the marching band way back in my school days.

Do you think if I drag the old drum out and start playing it again I could get smarter?

My neighbors may complain, could you give me one of those subscriptions to play the drum so when they called the cops about the noise I won’t get in trouble?

Thinking back, to when I was in High School I did think I was the smartest person in the world.

I had second thoughts later when Dad told me not to join the military with a war going on.

I got a real reality check when I got off the plane and the enemy was shooting at me.

Maybe I wasn’t as smart as I thought I was?


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 5:35pm.

_

Do what you want- you answer to God not to me.

David's praise was loud and joyful- do you know how to read???????

Or btw have you read it?

Freedom- Thank God for the USA!Smiling

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 7:24pm.

Yeah, I can read,

Thanks for the insult.

Now you may find it interesting when you make a general statement there maybe more than one answer. Such as P.K. Preachers Kid or P. K. Promise keepers.

I was referring to:
1 Chronicles 23:5 (King James Version)

As for my preferring the old standard hymns to the other type’s of Christian music, and my not believing in Brother’s Hinn, Osteen and Dollars abilities to heal me and make me rich.

I don’t think God will hold it against me.

I will take my chances.


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:14am.

Pray for this guy's family as they grieve and are in pain of his loss.

click here

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:02am.

I probably work for you and you pay me. Figure that one out- you can't.

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:14am.

I do on my own company and we do have 63 employees. But I don’t think you are on our payroll.

You may work for some kind a government funded preschool program that I pay taxes for?


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:17am.

It's nothing like that. But I do work for you and you pay me.

_______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:23am.

I count it an honor to work for you.Smiling

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:31am.

Well,

I assume that you must work for a fed, state or county government or a utility company.

It’s an honor to have you work for me. Just don’t ask for a raise, business is a little slow right now.


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:37am.

_
None of those- I won't ask for a raise you pay me alot already. Plus I get a yearly raise every year from you.Smiling Thank you.

______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:42am.

You maybe the first employee that I ever had, that was satisfied with the raise they got.

You made my day.

You have a blessed day also.


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:41am.

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:44am.

Done.


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:29am.

Gotta go to work, take my son to school. Have a blessed day.Smiling

_______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


BPR's picture
Submitted by BPR on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 7:19am.

Think there will will be a run off for your guy and will he win?

_______________________________
"Hope Changes Everything"


yardman5508's picture
Submitted by yardman5508 on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 8:34pm.

with being a small church. Sort of like "Cheers"; where everybody knows your name.

And the other thing you mention is what is sometimes called "corporatism". This is what is wrong with the Bush administration and [while many of my own "side" will gasp when I say it} what would be wrong with a Hillary administration. When the bottom line becomes the most important part of what you do, then you have lost sight of what you should be doing, which is, for churches, spreading the word, and, for governments, working in the citizens best interests. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 8:47pm.

When the bottom line becomes the most important part of what you do, then you have lost sight of what you should be doing, which is, for churches, spreading the word, and, for governments, working in the citizens best interests.

Sad but so true my friend.


yardman5508's picture
Submitted by yardman5508 on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 8:58pm.

by Jim Wallis entitled "God's Politics" which points out many of the problems suffered by both churches/believers and governments. He writes about how we are called to stand up for that in which we believe. If we wish government to be moral, it is up to us to make sure that those we elect are, indeed, moral. An eye-opening book that I recommend to any believer who wishes to translate moral beliefs into government policy. Keep the faith.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.


wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 9:26pm.

Thanks,

Sounds like an interesting book, I will pickup a copy.


Submitted by sageadvice on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 8:24pm.

You are aware that any "tide" that you send brother dollar or Hinn will be returned to you ten fold?

Several witnesses every week on their "shows" say it happened to them.
One even said that he got ten paychecks in a row soon after sending Hinn a"tide."

Now brother (I think) Joyce, Copeland, Roberts, Robison, Swaggart, and the glass tower people in California, send some of their money to Salt Lake City---just in case.

I sent a few bucks once and I did finally get ten times it back eventually. Not from them of course, from my employer or family.

wulfman's picture
Submitted by wulfman on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 8:37pm.

Thank you, for letting me know that I will receive ten paychecks in a row. For my tide to Brother Dollar.

I will try to send Brother Dollar 8 boxes of tide this week.

Does that mean that I will receive 20 paychecks in a row?

I will tell the rest of my family and they will send tide too.

If you use tide you may want to go to the store before they are sold out.


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