Jimmy Carter and Liberalism---An interesting take.

Richard Hobbs's picture

JeffC,

I have to commend you on your many replies and insightful contributions to the many topics this little newspaper website produces. I am even more appreciative of how you have handled my many taunts and slurs I've made against your dear old Dad. You've proven that you are thick skinned by dismissively and astutely replying to my comments with civility and an occaisional witty retort and sarcasm, which of course, I love.

Coincidentally, the Wall Street Journal's best of the web, had an article from today, referencing your father's comments to playboy some 30 plus years ago, and then takes it one more step, by applying his "lust" for women to the policies of liberals in general. I know, its a reach, but its intriguing, worthy of good company, good conversation and a twelve pack of Yuengling,-- if they sold them in Georgia. (I have mine bootlegged in from South Carolina.)

Anyway, below is the article. I look forward to your response. Go Giants!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jimmy Carter's Lust and North Korea's Nukes
On Wednesday, we linked to the famous quote from Jimmy Carter's November 1976 Playboy interview, in which the soon-to-be-president admitted, "I've looked on a lot of women with lust." This line is still good for a laugh after 32 years, but reader Gayle Trotter read the longer quote and had a thought-provoking insight:

I'm too young to have remembered the Playboy interview the first time around. I had always thought he was just being humble and the press had blown it out of proportion.
When I read the interview for the first time this week, I was struck by how the roots of his current accommodationist philosophy were evident even in 1976.

In the interview, he takes his own presumably slight failings in one area (lust) and uses that as an excuse to justify antisocial behavior by others. He says, "But that doesn't mean that I condemn someone who not only looks on a woman with lust but who leaves his wife and shacks up with somebody out of wedlock. Christ says, don't consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife."

Doesn't he do the same with North Korea, et al., today? We, the U.S., have slight failings in certain areas (pick one of the liberals' favorite causes like "social justice"), and because of our failings, the North Korean dictators have the justification to continue to develop nuclear capabilities, starve their people, and suppress religious liberty and the free press. Where is the prophetic voice condemning the terrible behavior? Carter is too busy making sure he doesn't condemn anyone.

Time reported contemporaneously on the interview under the assumption that Carter was simply pandering to the kind of man who reads Playboy. Yet it really does seem to shed some light on Carter's worldview more broadly, and on liberal sanctimony more generally.

Carter focuses on one particular sin--pride--and suggests that it is more problematic than lust or even adultery. In this telling, we all are subject to lust, even Jimmy Carter. Some of us succumb to it, and some do not. If you are one of those who do not, it is a sin for you to think that makes you a superior man.

So far, so good. But the Carter of the Playboy interview does not measure up to his own standard. He begins by acknowledging his own lustfulness, but then describes a hypothetical man who "leaves his wife and shacks up with somebody out of wedlock" and one who "screws a whole bunch of women." Carter's protestations notwithstanding, there is no escaping that this comparison is highly favorable to him.

Why does Carter feel it necessary to contrast others' reprobate behavior with his own relatively innocent conduct? Not, he asserts, because he thinks he is better than anyone else, but precisely because he thinks he isn't. Not only does he live a sexually upright life, but he isn't proud of it. He wants everyone to know that he has risen above the sin of pride. But that proves that he has not.

Carter's formulation of morality is entirely self-centered. For his purposes, the adulterer and the lothario exist only as instruments, enabling him to display his own ability to be nonjudgmental. What does not figure into Carter's equation at all is the wife and children the adulterer betrays, or the string of women the lothario uses. It is a morality in which intention counts for everything and consequences for nothing.

This is where the analogy to a certain kind of liberal foreign policy becomes clear. The idea is that America (or another Western country, usually Israel) is not perfect, and therefore has no business passing judgment on the affairs of its adversaries. All nations, like all men, are predisposed to sin, and the greatest national sin of all is for a dominant power to exhibit pride. By this reasoning, it is morally worse for an American leader to call (say) the regimes of North Korea, Iran and Saddam Hussein's Iraq "evil" than it is for those regimes to undertake actions that deliberately hurt or endanger innocent people.

When applied to public as opposed to private morality, this kind of above-it-all attitude, this self-regard masquerading as humility, provides an excuse for inaction in the face of evil. To be sure, sometimes inaction is a wise course, because available actions would only make matters worse. But this is a practical question--one of consequences, not intention.

To make the perfect the enemy of the good, to make a principle of responding to evil with inaction, is a dangerous way to approach the world. That should have been the lesson of the Carter presidency. It is a lesson American voters would do well to keep in mind as November approaches.

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muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 12:21pm.

I still think that what he said was simply realistic and very much in line with the teachings of Christ (which, I'll say presumptuously, are probably right).

The idea is just that there is no significant moral difference between the man who lusts and the man who acts on that lust.

Isn't this just right?

I mean, suppose that I really have this thing for the neighbor's wife, but the only things that prevent me from acting upon it have to do with other interests of mine that might be harmed: my reputation, my continued relationship with my wife and family, the respect of my friends, my desire to keep my nose intact (rather than broken by an angry husband), etc. If this is true of me, then I do not see any essential difference between me and the guy who has calculated and determined that he can likely get away with the deed--and so acts on his lust.

A study of college males a dozen or so years ago asked, "If yoiu knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you could get away with rape, would you do it?" Some 51% answered yes!!! In my book, these guys are rapists so far as their character goes, because, assuming that they were in touch with themselves when they answered the question, the only difference between them and the actual rapist is non-moral: it has to do with their respective beliefs about whether they are clever enough to get away with the deed.

I don't know about granting interviews to a magazine like Playboy, but I always thought that President Carter's revelation was refreshing. He was saying that the man who manages to keep his pants up when in the company of, say, White House interns, is not necessarily more virtuous than the man who gives in. And, with that, he was saying that he is not really in a position to judge that latter man.

There is, of course, a significant difference between noticing that, say, Christie Brinkley, is gorgeous, on the one hand, and harboring and encouraging lustful thoughts and fantasies. Any man who denies the former is either a liar or a eunuch.

-----------------

Grandchild # 4 (a "Roman")


Submitted by sageadvice on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 5:09pm.

Now this is really philosophical crap!

I guess wanting the money in a bank but not robbing it is as bad as robbing it?

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 5:51pm.

Of all people in the world, your assessment, from your own very unique viewpoint, is very important!

-----------------

Grandchild # 4 (a "Roman")


River's picture
Submitted by River on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 2:32pm.

Muddle, I have to disagree with the contention that looking at a woman with lust is equal to committing adultery. Like Carter, I have looked at the occasional pretty woman and indulged in a daydream or two about being with her. But I haven't acted on it. In the movie "American Beauty", Kevin Spacey's character had a long-term fantasy about a high school cheerleader, but when he actually had the chance to have sex with her, he made the decision to do the right thing, and he DID the right thing. I'm no theologian, but I think what you actually do is more important in God's eyes than what you were tempted to do.

Maybe I misunderstood your point.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 3:32pm.

Or maybe you replied before I went back and edited what I said.

My very last paragraph now distinguishes between attraction and the harboring of adulterous thoughts.

Let's switch to a parallel example. Jones embezzles money from his company because he has considered all of the angles and concluded that he can get away with it. Smith refrains from embezzling, not because he is concerned to do the right thing but because, after carefuly caluclation, he has determined that he would likely get caught.

One actually embezzled and the other did not.

I maintain that the difference between the two is non-moral in nature: it has to do with their beliefs about their own respective cleverness as well as the effectiveness of the cops.

If the only thing that keeps me from doing something that is immoral is some non-moral consideration of petntial consequences for me of my doing the thing, then I am not significantly different from the guy who actually does the thing because he has determined that he can get away with it.

Of course, we can all be happy that most of us believe that we wouldn't get away with such deeds, because the consequence of such belief is fewer misdeeds. But this does nothing to take away from the judgment regarding the charcter of the individuals in question.

Isn't this just obvious? (Really. I cannot bring myself to see things any other way.)

-----------------

Grandchild # 4 (a "Roman")


River's picture
Submitted by River on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 8:46pm.

Muddle, I see your point. I think in most cases, we start out NOT doing something because we are afraid of the consequences (such as a spanking) and eventually, most of us reach the point in our lives where we decide to do the right thing BECAUSE it is the right thing. Or at least we do it for that reason some of the time. It's probably best that we don't have to overcome temptation too often. For example, in my case I might be able to resist the temptation to make a pass at a lady, but if the lady made a pass at me, I might succumb, especially if I thought that I could get away with it. Luckily for me, that's not usually a problem any more!

I agree with you that fear of consequences is not the same thing as making a conscious choice to do the right thing, and also that the person intending or willing to commit a sin is just as guilty as the person who actually commits the sin. However, I suspect that most of our decisions to do the right thing are actually based at least in part on the fear of consequences.

We all start out as completely amoral babies, and we have to first learn a fear of consequences, then later a sense of right and wrong--a process of learning that continues throughout our lives. Maybe that's our main purpose on this earth--to learn right from wrong. I wonder how many of us would pass the test in a situation that provided a temptation with no danger of consequence. I'm afraid most of us would fail, most of the time.


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 6:03pm.

You cannot be serious! Go Patriots!

As to the article, it is so convoluted with sloppy logic that I’m surprised the WSJ had it. Then after re-reading, I noticed it was from one of their readers.

Let me list just a few positions the writer makes up out of his fantasies and then sometimes assigns them to Carter without any foundation and sometimes just rambles around with them:

“We, the U.S., have slight failings in certain areas (pick one of the liberals' favorite causes like "social justice"), and because of our failings, the North Korean dictators have the justification to continue to develop nuclear capabilities, starve their people, and suppress religious liberty and the free press.”

What?

“Carter focuses on one particular sin--pride--and suggests that it is more problematic than lust or even adultery.”

What?

“Not only does he live a sexually upright life, but he isn't proud of it.”

What?

“Carter's formulation of morality is entirely self-centered.”

What?

“It is a morality in which intention counts for everything and consequences for nothing.”

What? (And muddle if you see this, is there a way both of the two previous assertions can be true?)

“All nations, like all men, are predisposed to sin, and the greatest national sin of all is for a dominant power to exhibit pride.”

What?

“By this reasoning, it is morally worse for an American leader to call (say) the regimes of North Korea, Iran and Saddam Hussein's Iraq "evil" than it is for those regimes to undertake actions that deliberately hurt or endanger innocent people.”

What?

“To make the perfect the enemy of the good, to make a principle of responding to evil with inaction, is a dangerous way to approach the world.”

Yes! Finally something he writes makes sense although I get the impression it is by mistake.

I’m really not sure what to make of it. The writer might be insane or brain damaged and I do not want to make fun of him.

If he would like an account of the North Korea accord please refer him to Fred Kaplan’s article:

Rolling Blunder

Fred pretty much lays it out.

The theology he makes up and attributes to Carter is on the weird side too. Please refer to the newly (almost) audio book of Carter’s Sunday school lessons if anyone is interested in what he actually thinks as opposed to what other people would like for him to think so that they can argue against the straw man positions they make up for him.

Available from Beliefnet on Amazon:

Leading a Worthy Life


Richard Hobbs's picture
Submitted by Richard Hobbs on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 11:37am.

Come on JeffC, This wasn't your best work.
I came here for an argument.

"What" isn't an argument, and besides, the culturally cool retort today is "whatever".

No but I'm disappointed with your response.
Because I came here for a good argument.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Richard walks into/types into the Citizen blog:

Richard Hobbs:
Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

Git Real:
Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

Richard Hobbs:
No, this is my first time.

Git Real:
I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Richard Hobbs:
Well, what would be the cost?

Git Real:
Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Richard Hobbs:
Well, I think it's probably best if I start with the one and then see how it goes from there, okay?

Git Real:
Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment.

(Pause)

Git Real:
Muddle is free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Jeff Carter; room 12.

Richard Hobbs:
Thank you.
(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Hack:
WHADDAYOU WANT?

Richard Hobbs:
Well, Well, I was told outside that...

Hack:
DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

Richard Hobbs:
What?

Hack:
SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!
Richard Hobbs:
Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

Hack:
OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh! Oh I see!

Hack:
Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

Richard:
Oh...Sorry...

Hack:
Not at all!
(under his breath) stupid git.

(The Richard goes into room 12A. Jeff Carter is sitting behind a desk.)

Richard Hobbs:
Is this the right room for an argument?

Jeff Carter:
I've told you once.

Richard Hobbs:
No you haven't!

Jeff Carter:
Yes I have.

Richard Hobbs:
When?

Jeff Carter:
Just now.

Richard Hobbs:
No you didn't!

Jeff Carter: Yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
You didn't!

Jeff Carter:
I did!

Richard Hobbs:
You didn't!

Jeff Carter:
I'm telling you, I did!

Richard Hobbs:
You did not!

Jeff Carter:
Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

Richard Hobbs:
Ah!
(taking out his wallet and paying)
Just the five minutes.

Jeff Carter:
Just the five minutes. Thank you. Anyway, I did.

Richard Hobbs:
You most certainly did not!

Jeff Carter:
Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh no you didn't!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh no you didn't!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh no you didn't!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh no you didn't!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh no you didn't!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh no you didn't!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
No you DIDN'T!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
No you DIDN'T!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
No you DIDN'T!

Jeff Carter:
Oh yes I did!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

Jeff Carter:
Yes it is!

Richard Hobbs:
No it isn't!

(pause)

Richard Hobbs:
It's just contradiction!

Jeff Carter:
No it isn't!

Richard Hobbs:
It IS!

Jeff Carter:
It is NOT!

Richard Hobbs:
You just contradicted me!

Jeff Carter:
No I didn't!

Richard Hobbs:
You DID!

Jeff Carter:
No no no!

Richard Hobbs:
You did just then!

Jeff Carter:
Nonsense!

Richard Hobbs:
(exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)

Jeff Carter:
No it isn't!

Richard Hobbs:
Yes it is!

(pause)

Richard Hobbs:
I came here for a good argument!

Jeff Carter:
AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

Richard Hobbs:
An argument isn't just contradiction.

Jeff Carter:
Well! it CAN be!

Richard Hobbs:
No it can't!

Richard Hobbs:
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

Jeff Carter:
No it isn't!

Richard Hobbs:
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

Jeff Carter:
Look, if I "argue" with you, I must take up a contrary position!

Richard Hobbs:
Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

Jeff Carter:
Yes it is!

Richard Hobbs:
No it isn't!

Jeff Carter:
Yes it is!

Richard Hobbs:
No it isn't!

Jeff Carter:
Yes it is!

Richard Hobbs:
No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

Jeff Carter:
It is NOT!

Richard Hobbs:
It is!

Jeff Carter:
Not at all!

Richard Hobbs:
It is!

(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

Jeff Carter:
Thank you, that's it.

Richard Hobbs:
(stunned) What?
Jeff Carter:
That's it. Good morning.

Richard Hobbs:
But I was just getting interested!

Jeff Carter:
I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

Richard Hobbs:
That was never five minutes just now!!

Jeff Carter:
I'm afraid it was.

Richard Hobbs:
(leading on) No it wasn't.....

Jeff Carter:
I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

Richard Hobbs:
WHAT??

Jeff Carter:
If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

Richard Hobbs:
But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!

Jeff Carter:
I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

Richard Hobbs:
Oh all right.
(takes out his wallet and pays again.)
There you are.

Jeff Carter:
Thank you.

Richard Hobbs:
(clears throat) Well...

Jeff Carter:
Well WHAT?

Richard Hobbs:
That was never five minutes just now.

Jeff Carter:
I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

Richard Hobbs:
Well I just paid!

Jeff Carter:
No you didn't!

Richard Hobbs:
I DID!!!

Jeff Carter:
YOU didn't!

Richard Hobbs:
I DID!!!

Jeff Carter:
YOU didn't!

Richard Hobbs:
I DID!!!

Jeff Carter:
YOU didn't!

Richard Hobbs:
I DID!!!

Jeff Carter:
YOU didn't!

Richard Hobbs:
I don't want to argue about it!

Jeff Carter:
Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

Richard Hobbs:
Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing???
Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!

Jeff Carter:
No you haven't!

Richard Hobbs:
Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.

Jeff Carter:
Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.

Richard Hobbs:
I've had enough of this!

Jeff Carter:
No you haven't.

Richard Hobbs:
Oh shut up!

(Man leaves the office and enters office next door)
Richard Hobbs:
I want to complain.

Cal Beverly:
You want to complain! Look at these shoes. I've only had them three weeks and the heels are worn right through.

Richard Hobbs:
No, I want to complain about...

Cal:
If you complain nothing happens, you might as well not bother.

Richard Hobbs:
Oh!

Cal:
Oh my back hurts, it's not a very fine day and I'm sick and tired of this office.

(Slams door. walks down corridor, opens next door. Gets hit on head as he steps through.)

Richard Hobbs:
Hello, I want to... Ooooh!

Nitpickers:
No, no, no. Hold your head like this, then go Waaah. Try it again. (hits him on the head again)

Richard Hobbs:
uuuwwhh!!

Nitpickers:
Better, Better, but Waah, Waah! Hold your hands here.

Richard Hobbs:
No.

Nitpickers:
Now..

Richard Hobbs:
Waaaaah!!!

Nitpickers:
Good, Good! That's it.

Richard Hobbs:
Stop hitting me!!

Nitpickers:
What?

Nitpickers:
Stop hitting me!!

Nitpickers:
Stop hitting you?

Nitpickers:
Yes!

Nitpickers:
What did you come in here for?

Richard Hobbs:
I came here to complain.

Nitpickers:
Oh no, that's next door. It's being-hit-on-the-head lessons in here.

Richard Hobbs:
What a stupid concept.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 6:56pm.

Hack:
Not at all!
(under his breath) stupid git.

Chuckle... I love doing that to Hack. Eye-wink

________
In regards to Democrats, Republicans, gangs, and other scads of coterie Kool-Aide drinkers; Remember this..... Eagles Don't Flock


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 11:55am.

And I'm working up something extra special just for you. Busy right now but soon... soon!

Have the fire department's number near the phone for when you spontaneously combust.


Richard Hobbs's picture
Submitted by Richard Hobbs on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 11:53am.

Again JeffC,

"What" is not an argument.

The money quote and purpose of this analogy/comparison is below:

This is where the analogy to a certain kind of liberal foreign policy becomes clear. The idea is that America (or another Western country, usually Israel) is not perfect, and therefore has no business passing judgment on the affairs of its adversaries. All nations, like all men, are predisposed to sin, and the greatest national sin of all is for a dominant power to exhibit pride. By this reasoning, it is morally worse for an American leader to call (say) the regimes of North Korea, Iran and Saddam Hussein's Iraq "evil" than it is for those regimes to undertake actions that deliberately hurt or endanger innocent people.

When applied to public as opposed to private morality, this kind of above-it-all attitude, this self-regard masquerading as humility, provides an excuse for inaction in the face of evil. To be sure, sometimes inaction is a wise course, because available actions would only make matters worse. But this is a practical question--one of consequences, not intention.

To make the perfect the enemy of the good, to make a principle of responding to evil with inaction, is a dangerous way to approach the world. That should have been the lesson of the Carter presidency. It is a lesson American voters would do well to keep in mind as November approaches.

Again, this sense of enlightenment, this sense of superiority just reeks from Jimmy and liberals in general. That's why he can stand up before the Nobel Prize nuts and accept a prize, not for building homes and drawing attention to a need that is not being met regarding housing, but for slamming America as being the big bad bully all of the time.

Berkley is doing this as well. Their LIBERAL city council is doing their best to keep marine recruiters out of their city. Why? because they are better than us, they willingly trash our American Men and Women who serve in our Armed Forces.

Code Pink is one of your Dad's splinter organizations too. Its not that your Dad would publically march outside of an army hospital and decry the wounded soldiers inside the hospital. No, your dad would go instead to a foreign country, like Stockholm, and knowingly accept a prize that was not given to him for his good works and past deeds, but was given to me to embarrass the United States of America.

I see with no difficulty your father, and liberals in general, "masquerading as humility" their concept of their superior morality in slamming America's supposed arrogance for doing what is in our nations best interest.

You decried my comments when I compared your father to George Bush's policies, well, you're right, your dad should be compared more with the policies and actions of Code Pink, Berkley, and even those of his best friends, Fidel and Chavez, as they all blame America first, out of a sense of high minded intellectual and moral authority.


Submitted by sageadvice on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 5:03pm.

that the Egyptians threw out all those Palestinians yesterday who were buying all stuff in Egypt. Then sealed up the wall again!
Know why? They said the Palestinians were stealing more than the profit they were making!
Are all Arabs that way?
Maybe the Egyptians doubled the prices or something?
That what Exxon does!

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 12:04pm.

all of its effectiveness when it relies on stuff like:

"That's why he can stand up before the Nobel Prize nuts and accept a prize, not for building homes and drawing attention to a need that is not being met regarding housing, but for slamming America as being the big bad bully all of the time."

Then I can just ask for one single example of him, "slamming America as being the big bad bully all of the time" and when you can't supply it your whole argument goes up in flames.

But you will be pleased with what I'm coming up with for you. I'm going to be VERY disappointed if you are in total agreement with me.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 11:46am.

One of my all-time favorites.

For those who might not know what you're referring to:

Argument Clinic

-----------------

Grandchild # 4 (a "Roman")


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 11:48am.

And here is the Philosophers Song, sing by an "Australian philosophy department"

Beware the F-bomb. (American beer joke).

"There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teachya 'bout the raising of the wrist..."

-----------------

Grandchild # 4 (a "Roman")


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 12:01pm.

And let's not forget the ultimate matchup: the German philosophers versus the Greek philosophers!

Eureka!

-----------------

Grandchild # 4 (a "Roman")


Submitted by sageadvice on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 5:05pm.

"First kill all the Philosophers?"
Or was it lawyers?

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