WHAT CAN WE DO

ChiefUSAFRet's picture

WHAT CAN WE DO TO REDUCE THE RISK TO CIVIL SOCIETY BY RADICAL MUSLIMS?

The following is an excerpt of a book written by Sam Harris, a noted author
and philosopher. Some of you probably know that Sam Harris is also an Atheist - but please keep an open mind when reading this.

"In thinking about Islam, and about the risk it now poses to the West, we
should imagine what it would take to live peacefully with the Christians of
the 14th century who were eager to prosecute people for crimes like host
desecration and witchcraft.  We are in the presence of the past.  It is by
no means a straightforward task to engage such people in constructive
dialogue, to convince them of our common interests, to encourage them on the
path to democracy, and to mutually celebrate the diversity of our cultures.

It is clear that we have arrived at a period in our history where civil
society, on a global scale, is not merely a nice idea; it is essential for
the maintenance of civilization.  Given that even failed states now possess
potentially disruptive technology we can no longer afford to live side by
side with malign dictatorships or with the armies of ignorance massing
across the ocean.

What constitutes a civil society?  At minimum, it is a place where ideas, of
all kinds, can be criticized without risk of physical violence.  If you live
in a land where certain things cannot be said about the king, or about an
imaginary being, or about certain books, because such utterances carry the
penalty of death, torture, or imprisonment, you do not live in a civil
society.  It appears that one of the most urgent tasks we now face in the
developed world is to find some way of facilitating the emergence of civil
societies everywhere else.  Whether such societies have to be democratic is
not at all clear since it has been persuasively argued that the transition
from tyranny to liberty is unlikely to be accomplished by plebiscite.  It
seems all but certain that some form of benign dictatorship will generally
be necessary to bridge the gap.  But benignity is the key-and if it cannot
emerge from within a state, it must be imposed from without.  The means of
such imposition are necessarily crude; they amount to economic isolation,
military intervention (whether open or covert), or some combination of both.
While this may seem an exceedingly arrogant doctrine to espouse, it appears
we have no alternatives.  We cannot wait for weapons of mass destruction to
dribble out of the former Soviet Union and into the hands of fanatics.

Is Islam compatible with a civil society?  Is it possible to believe what
you must believe to be a good Muslim, to have military and economic power,
and to not pose an unconscionable threat to the civil societies of others?
The answer to this question is no.  If a stable peace is ever to be achieved
between Islam and the West, Islam must undergo a radical transformation and
it must come from Muslims themselves. It does not seem much of an
exaggeration to say that the fate of civilization lies largely in the hands
of "moderate" Muslims.  Unless Muslims can reshape their religion into an
ideology that is basically benign, it is difficult to see how Islam and the
West can avoid falling into continual state of war, and on innumerable
fronts.  Nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons cannot be uninvented and
these weapons will soon be available to anyone who wants them.

Perhaps the West will be able to facilitate a transformation of the Muslim
world by applying outside pressure.  It will not be enough, however, for the
United States and a few European countries to take a hard line while the
rest of Europe and Asia sell advanced weaponry and "dual use" nuclear
reactors to all comers.  To achieve the necessary economic leverage, so that
we stand a chance of waging this war of ideas by peaceful means, the
development of alternative energy technologies should become the object of a
new Manhattan Project.  There are sufficient economic and environmental
justifications for doing this, but there are political ones as well.  If oil
were to become worthless, the dysfunction of the most prominent Muslim
societies would suddenly grow as conspicuous as the sun.  Muslims might then
come to see the wisdom of moderating their thinking on a wide variety of
subjects.  Otherwise, we will be obliged to protect our interests in the
world with force-continually.  In this case, it seems all but certain that
our newspapers will begin to read more and more like the book of
 Revelation."

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muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 10:44am.

It is interesting that he seems to think that the essential tenets of Islam are necessarily at war with civilization and the "civil society." I agree.

Still, should any right-thinking Muslim follow the procedure that he suggests? It would amount to saying, "My religion really does put me at odds with modern civilization. And so, for the sake of the latter, I shall reshape my thinking regarding the former."

They should do this only in the event that the civil society is a great good and their religion is a great falsehood. I happen to believe both of those propositions. But the suggestion reminds me of the muddle-headed (heh!) book by Bishop Spong: Why Christianity Must Change or Die. He "reasons" that traditional, orthodox Christianity is out of step with the times, and so must morph into something that is unrecognizably Christian in order to ameliorate this fact. But perhaps the reply from the traditional, orthodox Christian should be, "Why Bishop Spong Must Repent or Perish." Christianity should "change" only if it is false in its present condition. Is it? The same is true of Islam.

_______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 11:37am.

Professor Muddle,

You are good at this. Framing the discussion as you do. Thanks man!

Git


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 1:21pm.

A lot of my students would like for me to save them trouble by telling them what to think. One thing I tell them is that I am quite certain that at least some of my own beliefs are mistaken, and the trouble is that I am not sure which ones they are!

I do make it a practice of arguing, in lecture, for or against various views. (I have colleagues who wrongly and confusedly suppose that "objectivity" calls for the professor's holding his/her own views close to the vest, never revealing what he/she really thinks, so that the lecture is not "biased." Nonsense. Their knowing my own views will "bias" things only if they suppose that I am speaking ex cathedra or thundering down from Sinai. And a constant refrain of mine in class is, "What matters is whether you find the argument persuasive and why.") Of course, it is always nice when someone says, "Wow, you convinced me of your view!" But that is not my reason for taking positions and laying out arguments. Rather, it is to model for them what it is to do philosophy. And this takes me to the point of this reply.

At this particular time in the midst of the current culture wars, I think it is important for people first to learn how to think about the issues before we can try to come to any consensus on what to think. And thinking, like spinning and weaving, threatens to become a lost art.

______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.


River's picture
Submitted by River on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 1:31pm.

Muddle, no need to answer if you want to keep your privacy, but I was curious where and what you teach.

Back in college, I took a philosophy course that was based on the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". An excellent book, and some of what you have discussed reminds me of that book.


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 3:25pm.

I am a philosopher and, therefore, teach philosophy.

I'm still hanging on to anonymity, but that may change. (An astounding, news-making, earth-shattering unmasking may be forthcoming!) Smiling

Meanwhile, I can tell you that my training was at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, with a Ph.D. in philosophy--more years ago than I care to think about. (If I had my education--at least, this final part of it--to do all over again, I wouldn't change a thing.)

______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 4:30pm.

I like Zuma Beach.
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muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 4:56pm.

Um, I've never been to the area, but would like to go.

How's the surf?

I'm trying to see the relevance. The first thing to come to mind is that this is a hint of identity. But other drips and drops from your blogs have not led me to believe that you are my former neighbor who moved back to the LA (Huntington Beach) area (despite the fact that "cyclist" would fit well as a screen name for my bicycling fanatic former neighbor).

Help me out....

_______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 6:40pm.

I'm sorry to be cryptic. But it is necessary. My message is designed to be a hint to you. More to come, if necessary, when we are both on-line. Be back in a while.
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muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 6:52pm.

I'm working on the hint.

But I suck at Jeopardy and crossword puzzles.

Assume that you are dealing with a complete dimwit, and offer a hint with that in mind...

______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.


River's picture
Submitted by River on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 4:07pm.

Last year, I was a little too open about my own ID, and learned to regret that, so I totally understand your wish for anonymity.

Since you teach philosophy, did you ever read the Zen book, and what did you think of it? By a happy coincidence, I had just got myself a motorcycle, and was going through a big change in my life, so the book really spoke to me. (Funny how that first year of college tends to put things in a different perspective!)


muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 5:08pm.

Confession time.

I own the book, but have not actually read it. I mean well, but there is this list that I maintain. It is titled, "Books that I would have read by now if I was what people think I am." (War and Peace makes that list, though I can claim to have read--and loved--Anna Karenina).

Pirsig's book is one of the hundreds on that list. I've heard good things about it. Colleagues at my former college used it in t heir classes.

Doesn't he have something more recent--Lila--that carries on with much of the same?

Perhaps my trouble is that, since I do philosophy in the Anglo-American analytic tradition, I am not naturally drawn to the Zen perspective from which Pirsig apparently writes. But I am more than willing to suppose that there is much of value there.

______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.


River's picture
Submitted by River on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 10:54pm.

Muddle, it's been 30 years since I read that book cover to cover, so I'm a little fuzzy on the details by now, but it was more about life being a voyage of discovery. Pirsig discussed the various great philosophies, as well as scientific method and rationalism, but not just Zen. Maybe that's why it made a good introductory book for a class on philosophy. I'm afraid I don't know anything about Pirsig's later works. But that book made a big impression on me, as it tied science and philosophy together at a time when I was a science major in search of a philosophy to believe in. Your discussion about the implications of the "big bang" reminded me of some of the discussions in that book.

By the way, have you ever thought of the human race as a river of life? After all, life flows from our parents into us, and from us to our children. Individuals eventually pass on, but the river continues to flow. That thought first occurred to me while reading that book.

PS- Now you know where I got the idea for my net name.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 1:31pm.

At this particular time in the midst of the current culture wars, I think it is important for people first to learn how to think about the issues before we can try to come to any consensus on what to think. And thinking, like spinning and weaving, threatens to become a lost art.

My friend, isn't it easier to accept what others think, rather than to think for ourselves. I think that folks these days find it easier to fight for what they are told rather than fight for the truths that require a bit of scrutinizing effort.

Keep up the good fight. Although I strongly feel that Oprah's philosophys will reign over Muddle's for some time to come. We just ain't very a very bright society these days, and we be a bit on the lazy side too. Shocked


ChiefUSAFRet's picture
Submitted by ChiefUSAFRet on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 11:37am.

I think Christianity changed significantly during the Enlightenment Period(18th Century) when the age of reason finally manifested itself. They had to change or it would have become less of a force in everyday society. The change has been more rapid and permanent in Western Europe but not so much in the USA. Fortunately most of our forefathers were not fundementalist otherwise we would now be living under a theocracy. And nothing is more evil then a Theocracy.

Unfortunately the Muslim faith has not changed and still lives in the middle ages. What Sam Harris is saying that unless the Muslim faith changes we in the west will be continually at war with them because they want to either convert us or destroy us if we don't. I agree with him.


Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 10:16pm.

We will be continually at war with RADICAL Islam - not all Muslims. We must be cognizant of the difference. Christianity did not have to 'change' to end child abuse in some churches. . some Christians had to change.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 10:35pm.

I'm curious from your perspective. When and why did it become radical?

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Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 12/02/2007 - 11:09pm.

I'll get back to you tomorrow.

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 11:50am.

I agree as well. And I fear that my grandchildren may find themselves in a very dangerous world.

Harris is also right that there is no reasoning with these extremists. And, of course, if that is true, then Christians, Jews, atheists, and Muslim "moderates" will all be viewed alike as infidels.

And the fact that Harris is correct on this score gives the lie to the "War is Not the Answer" crowd, who naively think that diplomatic and reasoned dialog is always a viable option for those who are patient and peace-loving enough to seek it. That very much depends upon who is on the other side of the table--or the battlefield. In some cases, war is the only answer for those who value peace and justice.

Could we drop something in their drinking water to prevent their having more babies?

I've no idea what you mean in asserting that Christianity itself underwent change during and after the Enlightenment. Do you mean the way the Roman Church asserted itself politically? Perhaps. But, again, that is not particularly interesting when what is in view is the question of the truth of the central tenets.

Far more significant, I think, is the interplay betweenm the Reformation, the Catholic church and the Counter-Reformation. One might well argue the thesis that the reformers and counter reformers "changed" Christianity. Of course, the reformers themselves--Luther and Calvin in particular--saw themselves as restoring something that had been lost.

The difference between them and, say, Spong or Harris' would-be Muslim reformers, is that the protestant reformers, right or wrong, acted in the name of Truth. The question was, "What must we believe in order to align ourselves with truth?" It was not, "What must we believe in order to achieve desirable societal results?"

_______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 11:47am.

The 'Truths' of Christianity haven't changed. The only thing that changes is man's desire to morph it to suit his lifestyle. One thing I admire and credit Muddle for is his mocking of man trying to re-create Christianity and his attempt to spin God's Word.

they want to either convert us or destroy us if we don't. I agree with him.

And after they convert us it then becomes an issue of race and a caste system. Just look within their own countries and faith in which they currently control.

And nothing is more evil then a Theocracy.

I agree... unless God and not man is the head.


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 1:32pm.

If you got some time tonight the Festival of Carols is tonight at Harps Crossing. FCHS is on at 1900. I think hutch will be there.
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hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 2:35pm.

hutch will definitely be there.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 2:43pm.

Cy gonna be there too?

Probably won't be able to make it. Mrs. Git and the little Gitlets are taking me our for my birthday dinner. I kind of have a taste for something fancy tonight. Perhaps, Cafe Pig? Who knows. Eye-wink


eodnnaenaj1's picture
Submitted by eodnnaenaj1 on Mon, 12/03/2007 - 7:17am.

I've been out of the loop for a day or two; Happy Birthday? How many times have you turned 29??!! LOL!


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:33pm.

Git!!!!!
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hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:12pm.

You missed a great show, 3 elementary choruses, at least 2 middle schools and the FCHS chorus plus the Wind Ensemble from FCHS, absolutely beautiful music by all. The talent in Fayette County never ceases to amaze me. Some of the music was enough to bring that man sweat to your eyes, {of course me being such a manly man that wasn't a danger to me}.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:17pm.

I was there. I left shortly after the boys did the African Christmas piece. How about those to girls in the HS Chorus singing PIE Jesu?


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:29pm.

So close!!! I seen hutch after the performance. My son did the flute solo for the middle school chorus.
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Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:35pm.

Wow! Did he do a great job playing with the middle school chorus or what? He's really good.

So you were there too?


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:42pm.

to my eye not to mention Mrs. Cy as well. Many thanks!!! You better believe I was there. I used to play the flute. That was back when Moses parted the Red Sea.
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hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:46pm.

Forget Moses, that was when you could part your hair.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:53pm.

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Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:48pm.

We might not be far behind. LOL!

Talk later guys. Family time calls. We're watching Rudolph. Plus, I'm going to try to beat the 9 year old Gitlet at backgammon.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:46pm.

Kids excelling like that usually hint at a successful life and future. I'm proud for you Cy. What did the Hutchette play?


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:48pm.

The hutchette plays the clarinet, she was the left side 2nd in from the front.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:51pm.

I suspected as much. I narrowed her down to that area. Pass on kudo's from the peanut gallery for myself and Mrs. Git.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:52pm.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:21pm.

Awesome, just awesome the whole program was. You should have come said hello I had my hutch sandwich board on.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 9:27pm.

I tried to find the guy with the reverse mohawk. I was unsuccessful.

The whole program was indeed awesome. Harps Crossing was a wonderful venue. It was great of those folks to share that building with the community.


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 2:56pm.

Cy's at every thing else.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 1:43pm.

Is that a come and go event? Got more details?


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 2:07pm.

It starts at 1900 and last about 2 hours. Music is from various schools in the county. It's not really a come and go but some do it. Harps Crossing does a great job in hosting it in their new and beautiful addition.

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