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Catholicism versus Atheism

The Catholic Church is still proudly the oldest and largest provider of health care in the world. I have never heard of an Atheist Hospital anywhere.

The Catholic Church invented the very concept of what we call the "university" and has founded tens of thousands of schools (colleges, high schools, elementary schools, trade schools, etc.)in the last 2000 years. Oxford, Cambridge, Paris, Bologna, etc. were all founded by the Church. While the atheists have taken over Western education in the last 50 years, how many universities have they founded?

The Catholic Church is still proudly the oldest and largest provider of homes for orphans, handicapped, elderly, mentally ill, etc. Mother Teresa's nuns care for AIDS patients all over the world. Ever hear of an Atheist AIDS Clinic?

The atheists did give us the Nazi Party, the Soviet Communist Party, the Maoist Party, Pol Pot, the Reign of Terror in the French Revolution, the Spanish Civil War, etc....and they slaughtered over 100 million people in the 20th century. Do you atheists really want to talk about the Crusades (a very limited number of people died in these wars relative to the modern era).

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Nazi atheism?

Submitted by bowser on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 10:04pm.

So the atheists gave us the Nazi party, and by extension WWII and all its atrocities. Damn those freethinkers!

Unfortunately it’s a myth. A comforting and self-affirming one for people like “Christian,” no doubt, and perhaps a useful marketing tool. But a myth nonetheless.

There was plenty of that old time religion going on in Nazi Germany. As folks below have noted it's a complex subject, and it’s true Hitler killed, jailed or otherwise eliminated some religious opponents, like the heroic Bonhoeffer, who threatened his regime.

But Hitler consistently presented himself as a Christian and a God-inspired leader and invoked religious imagery in rationalizing his policies. (Some historians even say the Nazis used a book by Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, called “On Jews and their Lies” as a basis of their efforts to whip up anti-semitism.) That such arguments helped lead a nation into a world war and to commit hideous atrocities is one of the lessons we may take from that awful period.

Here are a few quotes from the man himself:

We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people. – Hitler, 1928 speech

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. -- Hitler, 1933 speech

National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God. – Hitler, 1934 speech

God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work. – Hitler, Jan. 1945

...and Darwin recanted on his deathbed

Submitted by muddle on Sun, 12/02/2007 - 9:48am.

Again, none of this is to the point.

Soon after Darwin's death, rumors began circulating to the effect that Darwin recanted the theory of evolution on his deathbed. Some versions have it that he cooked the whole thing up out of conscious rebellion against God. (And some fundamentalists have said that he formulated the theory due to the sinister influence of the demons who possessed him.)

He didn't.

But suppose he did. What would this imply regarding the validity of the theory of evolution? The theory stands or falls with the evidence for and against, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the particular circumstances of its original formulation.

The same goes for religious beliefs. If I profess to be a follower of Christ but am guilty of violent hate crimes, this does nothing to undermine, for instance, the truth of Jesus' teachings on love, nor does it undermine any of his claims of equality with God.

Conceptual systems--religious and otherwise--are not assessed by appeal to the behaviors of their professed adherents.

_______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.

muddle

Submitted by Bonkers on Sun, 12/02/2007 - 10:03am.

Darwin I think thought up the idea from his research about evolution.
Much research has been done since then and many think he was correct. If we found a confession of Darwin's stating he was just joking, it wouldn't change anything that has happened since---as you say.
I also agree that a particular religion doesn't invalidate due to some hypocrites. However it is disgusting to see these people who do not try to live their religion every day, but claim holiness, or at least to be a member of some religion.
All of this stuff is pretty much guessing anyway, with some things used as proof and others that are contradictory ignored.
We will always assume we can be as smart as the Creator and understand and have proof of everything---which we will not.
Or, we can call whatever we believe as just "faith."

Catholicism, Atheism and Red Herrings

Submitted by muddle on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 10:07am.

G.K. Chesterton, my favorite essayist of all time, addressed this topic with his characteristic wit and good humor, and showed it to be the red herring that it is.

In his exchange with atheist Robert Blatchford, he takes up Blatchford's tired assertion that great atrocities have ben committed in the name of religion. In fact, Blatchford thought that he had caught Chesterton out on an earlier occasion for Chesterton's admission of such.

Blatchford had written, "Mr. G.K. Chesterton, in defending Christianity, said, 'Christianity has comiited crimes at which the sun might sicken in heaven, and no one can refute that statement.'"

Chesterton replies, "I did say this, and I say it again, but I said something else. I said that every great and useful institution had committed such crimes. And no one can refute that statement."

"And why has every great institution been criminal? It is not enough to say, 'Christians persecuted; down with Christianity,' any more than it is enough to say, 'A Confucian stole my hairbrush; down with Confucianism.' We want to know whether the reason for which the Confucian stole the hairbrush was a reason peculiar to the Confucians or a reason common to many other men."

Perhaps Hitler described himself as a Christian. Perhaps Nietzsche petted your puppy and gave it a biscuit. We learn nothing about either Christianity or atheism in observing such facts.

_______________

Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of man.

Dr muddle has spoken....

Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 10:22am.

and the sound you hear is another blog imploding. Smiling
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Hey Christian,

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:14pm.

Where did you go? Come back.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Atheists and Nazi Party??

Submitted by skyspy on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 10:49pm.

Hitler claimed to be a "christian", protestant if I remember correctly, and he used the bible to justify his hate of Jews.

Hitler

Submitted by ChiefUSAFRet on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 7:23am.

Hitler was a Catholic. The Vatican provided a list of all Catholics to the Nazi government in the mid 1930's to ensure that Catholics were not arrested for being Jewish or Communists. When Hitler died the Bishop ordered a requim mass. After the war the Vatican provided travel papers and safe houses to allow many nazis to escape to South America.

Hitler and Christians

Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 1:44am.

First of all, I sure hope you can come to our next coffee meeting, skyspy. We had a great time! Smiling

Okay back to business. skyspy, I'm afraid that's not exactly true. Hitler hated true Christians. You may not know this, but the German Resistance was headed by Christians including a brilliant theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He and his church (the Confessing Church) were strong opponents of Hitler and antisemitism. In fact, Bonhoeffer was executed (by the SS IIRC) for aiding Jews and being part of a plot to assassinate Hitler.

Again, it's not well known (I doubt 1/50 Christians even have heard of Dr. Bonhoeffer), but there was most definitely a resistance to Hitler in Germany and Christians were apart of it.

Hitler and Christians

Submitted by ChiefUSAFRet on Sun, 12/02/2007 - 11:04am.

He did not hate Christians - in fact he admired them especially the Roman Catholic Faith. Read Mein Kampf and you will see.

By the way the belt buckle on every german soldier read: Go with God

Thanks pentapenguin

Submitted by skyspy on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 7:02am.

You are right, I have not heard this side of the story, or of Dr. Bonhoeffer. Good to know.

I'll try to make the next one if I'm not ordered in on OT.

Hitler's Nazi Atheist Occultism was condemned by the Pope

Submitted by Christian on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 10:56pm.

The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology : The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935. This is a book by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke and wikipedia calls it the "seminal work" on Nazi occultism and Ariosophy. The book also includes some valuable information on Esotericism in Germany and Austria between 1880 and 1945.

I'll Check it Out

Submitted by skyspy on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:04pm.

All I remember is what my grandparents told me. They escaped, they were very lucky. I have read many books, and visited with some relatives in Germany, this is the first "occult" slant I have heard of.

Interesting Fact - Spanish Civil War

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 10:31pm.

Those involved:

Republicans - Mexico, Soviet Union, and various "left" leaning groups

Nationalist - Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and most Roman Catholic clergy.

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

6,832 Spanish priests & nuns martyred by the atheists

Submitted by Christian on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 10:49pm.

Large numbers of Catholics were butchered by the atheists during the 1936-1939 Civil War solely for being Catholic. Unlike the martyrdoms in most parts of the world, whole sectors of the religious community were liquidated. At least 6,832 priests and religious were martyred, including 13 bishops. This includes 259 Claretians, 226 Franciscans, 204 Piarists, 176 Brothers of Mary, 165 Christian Brothers, 155 Augustinians, 132 Dominicans, and 114 Jesuits.

The nuns that were raped and murdered by the atheists included 30 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, 26 Carmelites of Charity, 26 Adoratrices, and 20 Capuchins, along with many others.

But perhaps the greatest fury fell upon diocesan clergy, though it varied a great deal from one place to another. Pamplona, a Nationalist and pro-Catholic stronghold, had no diocesan casualties. Large cities that remained in Atheist Republican hands for the duration of the civil war had high casualty figures: Barcelona, 279; Valencia, 327; Madrid-Alcalá, 1,118. In percentage terms, these represented 22, 27, and 30 percent of the diocesan clergy in the respective cities.

Remarkably, most of these savage murders were carried out in only the first six months of the civil war. Probably half of all clergy were, within a week of the uprising, protected in areas controlled by the Nationalists. Without the Nationalists, the slaughter could have been much greater. As it was, about a quarter of the male clergy in Atheist Republican-controlled areas were slaughtered.

Tell me again about enlightened atheism.

When you did your Wikipedia

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:04pm.

search you sort of selectively left out the discussion pertaining to atrocities on both sides. I just wish to point out that during the conflict the country was split including the Church. The Church could not side with the communist for obvious reasons so it had to allied itself with the Nationalist.

Let me ask you something. Who waged war in the conquest of the Americas?
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Hey Cy

Submitted by skyspy on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:10pm.

Sorry I missed out today. Duty calls. It sounds like everyone is having fun what a good idea. Maybe next time ....

It was

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:12pm.

a hoot! Hopefully next time you can make. We can talk about old airplanes and old men.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Submitted by hutch866 on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:21pm.

Tucker whomped Bainbridge 34-7.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

hutch,

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:27pm.

I don't think there are any surprises there. Tucker stats are something else. I still wish we were there.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Love Old Planes

Submitted by skyspy on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:18pm.

One of my favorites is the china clipper, or PanAm clipper.

I've got an old..

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:25pm.

text book used to instruct candidates to get their "E" License as in "A&E" Aircraft and Engine Mechanic License. In that book there are pictures of work being perform on done those flying boats. All this was at Laguardia airport just before the war. Neat stuff!!!!

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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Bring It

Submitted by skyspy on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:28pm.

I hope I can come to the next coffee. If you think of it try to bring it with I would love to see it. Did you get it from your dad??

No, from a next..

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:33pm.

neighbor's garage sale about 30 years ago. Hey I got something here that I'm holding in my hand that's pretty neat. Flight Computer, Mark 8 A US Navy about 1955 issue.
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

skyspy...

Submitted by Cyclist on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 11:38pm.

It was great talking with you. I'm going to close it down. Take care and drive that convertible tomorrow!!!

Cyclist
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Caution - The Surgeon General has determined that constant blogging is an addiction that can cause a sedentary life style.

Catholics and Karma

Submitted by skyspy on Fri, 11/30/2007 - 10:55pm.

Catholics aren't exactly innocent when it comes to torture. Starting with the crusades they have enough bad karma to go around and around.

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