this whole thing started with me when mixer first calls FCHS Mundy's Mill west and then to me implied that FCHS wsn't even that good. Go back and read it, maybe that's not the way he meant it but thats the way I took it. Now if that bothers you, tough, I haven't ignored anything. I don't see where this Ranking carries more weight then any other. Now if you can explain to me why his opinion, or yours for that matter, is more important then mine we can continue this but untill then I'm done with it. In the future don't lump me in with other people's opinion, I go my own way.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

You chose to ignore mixers statements and focus one part of one statement where he was saying that some people call FCHS mundy's mill west. In the sentences prior to that he was referring to the increase in crime and transient population in that area.

You believe what you want - Mixer never said, and I never said, that FCHS or any other school was better worse than anything other than what they once were.

If you feel good about taking it all out of context - while ignoring all the times (at least three) he tried to tell you that and complimented FCBOE, then knock yourself out.

As for how it started: YOU asked HIM to show you where he read that Mundy's mill was ranked higher than FCHS - he did.

He even said that was study was misleading and did not measure student achievement - you ignored all of that and attacked him for what was written in Newsweek Magazine.

I'm surprised you are that defensive but hey, whatever makes you feel good about FCHS and where the North End of the County is going is fine with me - I don't live there.

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

I've reread this whole thing and nowhere do I see where I attacked Mixer, I disagreed with him and if you equate that with an attack I guess I'm guilty. I didn't know that wasn't allowed and only ya'lls opinions counted. To tell the truth when he oversimplified that one time it sounded a little Orwellian to me if you know what I mean. I also never saw where he said the study was misleading and I've read it twice if anyone is doing any attacking here it's you.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

Until then, let me help you find it Hutch:
As with all statistics, these too are misleading.

The First Two Sentences:
“As with all statistics, these too are misleading.
We have great schools and our 'top students' are better than most of those schools top students.”

Your sarcastic statements to Mixer- who again – never said those schools were better than FCHS:

“You can send your kids to Lovejoy, I'll just leave mine at FCHS.”((( Did ANYONE suggest that they were going to do this Hutch?)))

“I give up, if Ya'll want to send your kids to Clayton go ahead, they can take those tests, the guy even says you don't have to do well just take 'em and it makes it a better school, fine, wonderful. (((Did Mixer (or me) say anything about wanting to send our kids to Clayton County?)))

I know that Lovejoy passed about 3% of their ap courses and FCHS passed 70%, so I can see your reasoning that Lovejoy should be ranked higher.((( more sarcasm??)))

Does any National anything recognize this ranking. I'll just send my kid to Mundy's Mill west as mixer calls it. I'm sorry FCHS doesn't measure up to your high standards but we'll try to muddle along in spite of it.(((Mixer complimented FCHS- I won’t, but he did)))

“ … I thought the kids were the school, if the kids are doing well how can the school not be doing well, left, right, up, or down that don't make sense to me.”(((he said it wasn’t a left or right issue, did you want him to include other directions or are you being sarcastic?)))

“ … how you can discount all the good things these kids do in favor of just two tests plus advanced placement just doesn't compute with me. Just because a magazine endorses this doesn't mean anything to me.” (((Please shoe me where he discounted anything done by any children anywhere)))

“This is just one list also, not the end all and be all of rankings. (((He never said it was)))

They might offer more advanced placements, so what.You can oversimplify all you want, hell, you can draw it out in crayon if you want, but no way will I ever believe Lovejoy is a better school then any in Fayette.”(((I somehow don’t think Mixer uses Crayons Hutch)))

“Right, you called it Mundy's Mill west, only Mundy's Mill is ranked higher. You make it sound like this is the only ranking that matters, (((Really Hutch- where did he do that?)))) it's just this one guy's opinion. If this guy makes up a ranking that says one dollar bills are ranked higher then five dollar bills are you going to trade in your fives.”((( Yes Hutch, he’s an idiot)))

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

Okay - I have no idea what happened or why and I don't care.

Enigma, thanks but no thanks - I can defend whatever I say and explain why I said it.

Bas, stop stirring things up - you have got to be a middle child. I am going to start calling you 'The Blender' 'cause you love to stir things up!

Hutch, you Enigma and bas are all my 'blogger' friends and I have no idea what the problem was here.

Although I agree with a lot of what Enigma said, I DO NOT AGREE, THAT I WAS ATTACKED BY ANYONE.

This topic is closed for me.

If WWII had been covered by the Modern Media: Great Video

Thanks

I yam what I yam...Popeye

And I am what I am too

We are just a couple of guys trying to get it all figured out before we kick the bucket.

Even bas, my favorite liberal that I love to hate (Not really hate bas- figure of speech buddy), is doing the same in his way. I understand that.

We all want the same things - we just don't always agree how to go about it.
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If WWII had been covered by the Modern Media: Great Video

Over all the months I've been a part of this blog site, I feel i've been pretty steady, not going off half-cocked, or seeing slights where there aren't any at least not too much I hope. I've thought we've had a pretty good relationship between us. I would think you could see how much this issue bugged me, I made a good faith effort to understand where mixer was coming from and if I offended him it was certainly unintentional, but if you feel like you can attack me like you have today, then I guess I was wrong about this friendship on here. Maybe I perceive myself wrong. I have no more to say about it, as far as I'm concerned it's over.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

I'll tell you what enigma, if a little sarcasm equals attacking to you so be it, a couple of those were sarcasm, most were just me trying to make sense of what he was saying. You can take this any way you want, but I never attacked anyone and his explanations didn't make sense to me, as far as the left right comment, he said it wasn't a left /right issue and I said left right up or down it didn't make sense to me how much clearer can I make that. This wasn't about you and me anyway. I was discussing this in good faith, trying to understand his reasoning and if you can't understand that, that's too bad.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

you don't think calling FCHS Mundy's Mill west is an insult, what neither one of you will answer is why this ranking is so much better then any other, all over a couple of tests that the man said it didn't matter if they did well on. Mixer's the one pushing the Newsweek ranking not me, show me where I've attacked anyone, to tell you the truth I think you're so eager to discredit Bas you're sucking me into it. I can't control where the north end of the county is going, I only control my little part of it. I do live here and where I live is doing fine.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

I quite frankly am enjoying Mixer's tortured reasoning of how Clayton has better SCHOOLS but Fayette has better STUDENTS.

Pretzel logic at it's finest.

Of course, if I said the sky was blue and Mixer said the sky was pink, you'd agree with Mixer and then call me ignorant. That's just the way you roll.

BTW, still waiting on your "proof" that the website I listed for alternative certification is "obsolete". Do that, and I'll apologize right here. If you can't, why don't you own up to it and admit you were wrong?

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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

From your obsolete 2001 PSC site:

Copyright 2001 Professional Standards Commission

Here is the current 2007 PSC site:

Copyright 2007 Professional Standards Commission

You do the rest of the research yourself – you bore me.

Besides, if you can’t understand and follow Mixer’s plain English and simple logic why would I discuss you shortcomings with you?

________________________________________________________________________
Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

I would like to see the source that says Mundy's Mill is ranked higher then FCHS, if you don't mind.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

From the 2005-2006 Public School Report Card (Governor's Office of Student Acheivement)latest available statistics:

Percent of students meeting or exceeding Georgia CRCT test:
Mundy's Mill High School: 84.9%
Fayette County High School: 92.4%

Average SAT score (math/verbal combined):
Mundy's Mill High School: 852
Fayette County High School: 1020

Percent of Advanced Placement exams scoring 3 or higher:
Mundy's Mill High School: 10.7%
Fayette County High School: 70.7%

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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

I may have mistaken Lovejoy for Mundy's Mill (but I think it was actually both of them). It is Lovejoy and Morrow High Schools for sure (in Clayton County).

Neither Mundy's Mill nor Fayette County are ranked as high as Lovejoy or Morrow, nor are they in the top 1200 I cannot get the same data (from home) that I can access from my office. I will look further for you when I am back in my office. Regardless, you will hate this:

In 2007, Newsweek ranked Lovejoy number 525 in the Nation. Morrow is also ranked ahead of Fayette County.

Fayette County High School did not make the top 1200. In fact, Fayette County High School has not been in the top 1200 since before 2005.

2007 Lovejoy HS well ahead of FCHS: Here is the Newsweek 2007 source:

Morrow High School and Jonesboro High School also both finished ahead of Fayette County in 2006. They were 982 and 1048 respectively. Again, Fayette County did not make the list of the top 1200.

Lovejoy and Morrow ahead of Fayette County HS - State Information

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

going by the public school report card for Ga. schools, FCHS wins in every catagory against Lovejoy and Mundy's Mill, granted maybe not in that weird formula that newsweek uses.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

Based on a true story. Check it out. Mixer is dead on.

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

saw it years ago, enjoyed it, so what.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

From the 2005-2006 Public School Report Card (Governor's Office of Student Acheivement)latest available statistics:

Percent of students meeting or exceeding Georgia CRCT test:
Morrow High School: 82.8%
Mundy's Mill High School: 84.9%
Lovejoy High School: 85.1%
Fayette County High School: 92.4%

Average SAT score (math/verbal combined):
Morrow High School: 832
Mundy's Mill High School: 852
Lovejoy High School: 913
Fayette County High School: 1020

Percent of Advanced Placement exams scoring 3 or higher:
Lovejoy High School: 5.7%
Mundy's Mill High School: 10.7%
Morrow High School: 22.8%
Fayette County High School: 70.7%

LINK

I'll stand by my standard objective analysis of common success factors: SAT scores, CRCT passing rate, and percent of students scoring 3 or above on AP exams (3 or higher is generally required for college credit).

The Newsweek poll is some screwy "Dangerous Minds" feel-good rating that attempts to factor out parental wealth out of school ratings. It divides factors like AP test takers by the number of free school lunches to get their ratings. There are comparatively fewer free lunches in Fayette county so naturally the Newsweek ratings are lower.

Bottom line: Fayette County High School is STILL better than Lovejoy, Morrow and/or Mundy's Mill.

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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

This quote from you is completely wrong:

"The Newsweek poll is some screwy "Dangerous Minds" feel-good rating that attempts to factor out parental wealth out of school ratings. It divides factors like AP test takers by the number of free school lunches to get their ratings. There are comparatively fewer free lunches in Fayette county so naturally the Newsweek ratings are lower."

WRONG BASMATI - FREE LUNCH DOES NOT FIGURE IN AT ALL, NEITHER DOES SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS - NEITHER ARE A FACTOR EITHER WAY

"Test scores, the usual way of rating schools, are in nearly every case a measure of parental wealth and education, not good teaching. Every study shows that if your parents fill their house with books, include you in conversations and take you to plays and museums, you tend to score well on standardized tests even if your school is not the best. So, with the help of some astute AP teachers, I developed a scale called the Challenge Index, which used each school's rate of participation in college-level tests like AP to indicate which schools were the most demanding and supportive of all students. I took the total number of AP tests (later adding International Baccalaureate and Cambridge tests) taken each year and divided by the number of graduating seniors, so that big schools would not have an advantage over small schools. AP, IB and Cambridge were important because they were challenging (students could get college credit for good scores) and incorruptible (outside experts wrote and graded the exams). Just taking the course and the test mattered more than the score because even struggling AP students learned a great deal."

"Some parents and educators in wealthier neighborhoods, on the other hand, say a list that puts their schools below schools they consider their socioeconomic inferiors simply cannot be valid. .... As we note this year, several of the schools on our list did not make adequate yearly progress (AYP) under the No Child Left Behind law, though that, too, is mostly a measure of poverty, plus the failure of some not-so-poor schools to raise the achievement of their most disadvantaged students."

And finally:

"Readers are entitled to their own views of this rating system. The Challenge Index is journalism designed to serve readers, like the Dow Jones averages or baseball slugging percentages—not scholarship. The adjective "best" always reflects different values. Your best movie may have won the most awards; mine may have sold the most tickets. In this case, I want to recognize those schools with the teachers who add the most value, even in inner-city schools where no one has yet found a way to reduce dropouts or raise test scores significantly."

I stand with Mixer on this one. This is simple to understand.

I hope you will all recognize the changes that are coming to Fayette County and help prevent the decline that appears to be a part of that change.

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

I give up, if Ya'll want to send your kids to Clayton go ahead, they can take those tests, the guy even says you don't have to do well just take 'em and it makes it a better school, fine, wonderful. I know that Lovejoy passed about 3% of their ap courses and FCHS passed 70%, so I can see your reasoning that Lovejoy should be ranked higher. Does any National anything recognize this ranking. I'll just send my kid to Mundy's Mill west as mixer calls it. I'm sorry FCHS doesn't measure up to your high standards but we'll try to muddle along in spite of it.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

With parents like you and your wife, my son and his wife, and grandparents like me, FCHS will be just fine!

All of us will have to stay informed, be involved, and support the principal and teachers!

I hope to see you there! Go Tigers!

Have a great day.
Tug

Thank you Tug, I'll be at all the games I'm sure, I support it all, with time and money, what more can I do?

I yam what I yam...Popeye

What more can you do? Stay the same as you are, keep on doing what you do!

Tug

Disciplinary Reports in Georgia Schools

Lovejoy High School: 134.8 disciplinary incidents per 100 students (92 fights, 19 fighting arrests, 7 drug arrests, 2 handgun arrests)
Morrow High School: 111.8 per 100 students (146 fights, 13 fighting arrests, 15 drug arrests, 10 handgun arrests)
Fayette County High School: 64.1 per 100 students (17 fights, NO fighting arrests, 4 drug arrests, NO handgun arrests)

Additionally, Morrow High School is on the National "No Child Left Behind" act "DID NOT MEET" Adequate Yearly Progress list.

Lovejoy leads the league in fights where the police were called...must be all those kids trying to get into those AP classes!

However, in all fairness to Mixer and Enigma, it must be noted that *drumroll* Morrow and Lovejoy made the Newsweek list, and Fayette County did NOT!
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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Believe what you want but you are measuring student performance - not the school's performance.

I don't expect you (or Hutch) to know the difference or to admit that there is one.

This is not a left/right issue. Your schools are slipping in Fayette County. This- I promise you.

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

You're right, I don't know the difference, I thought the kids were the school, if the kids are doing well how can the school not be doing well, left, right, up, or down that don't make sense to me.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

A Gross over-simplification:

Student achievement is where we are.
School achievement is where we are going.

You could put our kids in any "other" school in America and the scores would be the same today. Those student scores are a measure of the student and past education combined.

Now, if you put our younger kids in those same "other" schools, the scores, when they take those standardized tests, will depend on both the kids themselves and the quality of education that was offered by the other school up to the point of each respective test. (CRT, ACT, IOWA, STAN-5, ASVAB, SAT, etc.)

I hope that helps.

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

Don't help a bit mixer. This dumb old squid will just have to take your word for it. You can send your kids to Lovejoy, I'll just leave mine at FCHS. School is what you make of it, if the kids or parents don't care, they won't get anything out of it. I hope that didn't sound to dollarish.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

I do not have kids at either school but would easily pick FCHS.

I have never indicated otherwise.

I was asked by you for the information that placed Mundy's Mill (Lovejoy) ahead of Fayette County which I gave. It is accurate but apparently bas does not feel it is. It does not take race, discipline, socio-economic demographics, violence, failure rates, student achievement or average student test scores in to account.

My point is simple: Fayette County is not going to be able to continue being the best just simply because our kids are the best (because some of the kids we are getting here now are just simple NOT the best hutch) and that we will need some good teachers and a very good curriculum if we hope to beat the same systems we used to beat but that now out perform us.

I would encourage you to look and see where we 'used to be' in the list of top systems and where we are now.

You are welcome to do that based on ANY criteria you wish, including student assessments as bas did or disciplinary problems. There are several district we once out performed that now out perform us.

We have dropped. We were actually once the number one school district in the state. Our teachers have a harder job now and we better realize that is we wish to address the coming problems. Our teachers will have to work harder with less. They deserve more pay, and we are going to have to compete for the best teachers like everyone else now because 'getting to work in Fayette county' isn't what it once was.

I feel that our teacher's are under paid. Our parents are overly condescending with a huge sense of entitlements (that's what started this discussion)we have parents that complain about things like - providing a stamp to get a report card mailed to them. These gripes wear on teachers. County policy puts an unrealistic burden on local teachers in regards to potential failures and documentation protect themselves from constant threats of lawsuits. Discipline problems are increasing while moral is decreasing.

We may be the best between us and Clayton but are we the best we can be?

I think we need to do a better job in recruiting, hiring, promoting, and keeping good teachers and we better start appreciating them more as well. Otherwise, we WILL be the Clayton county south annex.

And before you ask: 'NO', I am not a teacher and neither is my wife or anyone else in my family.

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

Having read the article in Newsweek, the rankings seem to be based on two tests that aren't going to be given that often here. I may be wrong but I don't think we have the numbers of ESOL people that other systems have and these rankings seem to be weighted in their favor, how you can discount all the good things these kids do in favor of just two tests plus advanced placement just doesn't compute with me. Just because a magazine endorses this doesn't mean anything to me. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this because personally {and I hate to say this, I really do} I have to agree with Bas on this that this is one of those feel good rankings for the disadvantaged.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

Here is number 1207:

1207 Starr's Mill Fayetteville Ga. 1.105 5.000 32.700
Do you think Starr's Mill is a 'disadvantaged' school?

Let me oversimplify for you:

The schools on the list have offered the most advanced classes Advanced Placement (approved college credit classes that allow students who score well on exit exams college credit), Intl. Baccalaureate (Internationally accredited curriculum that can transfer to college credit) and/or Cambridge (see International Baccalaureate) as a ratio to the number of graduating seniors are how they are ranked. The more classes they offer- the better.

In other words. The more advanced classes a school offers, the better the school does on this list. I contend that the more advanced the curriculum - the better opportunities for your students.

Fayette County has great schools. I hope they can keep it up for many years to come.

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

This is just one list also, not the end all and be all of rankings. They might offer more advanced placements, so what. You can oversimplify all you want, hell, you can draw it out in crayon if you want, but no way will I ever believe Lovejoy is a better school then any in Fayette.

P.S> Is it just me or does it seem like I should be argueing this with Bas and not you?

I yam what I yam...Popeye

I said it was higher ranked.

If WWII had been covered by the Modern Media: Great Video

Right, you called it Mundy's Mill west, only Mundy's Mill is ranked higher. You make it sound like this is the only ranking that matters, it's just this one guy's opinion. If this guy makes up a ranking that says one dollar bills are ranked higher then five dollar bills are you going to trade in your fives.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

hutch, two of my grandchildren attend FCHS. They like the school, and have done well. As far as I know they haven't had any problems.

The school is changing. I was told some of the teachers are leaving. This might not be true though.

I only pray it doesn't get worse. But, think about it, look what's happening to the city of Fayetteville. Has anyone heard a comment from the mayor and council re the crime? I haven't.

You can write this on your calander, I agree 100 percent with you on this.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

I'm gonna make a bleeding-heart librul out of you yet!
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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

No more then Denise is going to make a rabid conservative out of me.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

as far as your second link, I see no Fayette schools on it at all in the 37 top schools.

I yam what I yam...Popeye

As with all statistics, these too are misleading.

We have great schools and our 'top students' are better than most of those schools top students. Even more relevant I suppose to bas and others is that we have MORE top students (our AVERAGE is higher than their AVERAGE).

Part of the reason we are not ranked as high is that we are not offering as many advanced placement classes as those schools are.

Many people, as bas has done, like to use 'average test scores' to determine rankings. This is not a reflection of what is being offered by the system. It is a snapshot of student performance (not school system performance).

My attempt to bring any of this to the communities attention will fall on deaf ears until it is too late to make the changes needed.

I own a company that has a subsidiary that compiles information. We are sometimes hired by school systems to compile data and demographics for a multitude of models and reasons.

I have been through this in several communities. We prefer to work with developers and law enforcement since education is so politically driven. Heck, I can't even convince people on this site that we have a teacher shortage (or that our system is falling behind in performance and moving ahead too rapidly in it's multicultural diversification). Don't 'Ax' me, 'Ax' the McIntosh guest speaker.

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

Your detective work doesn't mention the number of 'highly qualified teachers' (required to exceed the NCLB requirements) or teachers that are teaching out of primary certification field.
Correct. "Highly qualified teachers" is an altogether different subject.

You apparently are only looking at vacancy notices.
Correct. If you have another objective standard you'd like to use, I'm all for that!

Sadly, until August, the county (as with most counties) won't truly know who is returning and who is not. All they can go on now is number of returned contracts vs. projected enrollment.
I agree with you somewhat. Typically, counties hire new teachers in the June-August timeframe, with a mad rush for teachers as fine tuning is complete. It's not an exact science, granted, but those systems who fail to plan (in June) plan to fail

In addition, there is a surplus in some areas, elementary for example, and a shortage in other critical areas such as secondary math and science.
Agreed. This is a nationwide problem, not specific to Fayette county. I'd point out that there is a plethora o vacancies at other counties...and a few openings as well in Fayette

When Barry James was the personnel director for Fayette County Schools, FCS, this county had an average of 117 applicants on file for every job opening. When Judy Byrd was personnel director for FCS over one-hundred applicants were on file for every job opening. This allowed the County School System to pick "the cream of the crop". This is no longer true. Due to a change in demographics and a lagging pay structure many desirable applicants are teaching the same kids for more money in surrounding counties. The old school system leadership once commonly said "sure, you make less, but you get to work in Fayette County". As you have seen by the changes in the crime rate and the increase in transient population, the once highly desirable FCHS is now considered Mundy's Mill West (Only Mundy's Mill is higher rated in national standings) but Clayton pays substantially more than Fayette. This is not an isolated trend. This not only makes the 30+ shortages more critical, it decreases the quality of applicants.
I think setting a "standard" of 100+ applicants for a position is a trifle arbitrary and not germane to the quality of teacher we end up with. I'd remind you that overall, test scores in Fayette far outclass lesser counties

For the first time in many years we are losing teachers in large numbers and to systems like Clayton, Coweta, Meriwether, Pike, Fulton, Spalding, Gwinnett and Rockdale.
I find this very hard to believe and would love to see your source(s) for this.

As for the 'quality' of the new applicant pool, I can only 'Ax' that you look at the new principals and county office personnel (I believe you had the new personnel director mumble, err, speak at your McIntosh graduation - you thought she had a speech impediment or was drunk) to reflect on the changes in the quality of the new hires.
Apples-to-oranges, in my opinion. There are standards and certifications for teachers.

Finally, several of the applicants now stipulate that they will only work on the south end of the county and would prefer to make the additional 7-10 thousand per year more by staying put rather than working in north Fayette.
I find this hard to believe as well. Source(s)? I'm sure that applicants can express a PREFERENCE for where they'd LIKE to teach, and have no problem with that. An applicant comes to me and says I'll only work here here and here, I'll say "thank you...we don't want you"

I would dearly love to see your sources that say there is not a teacher shortage nationwide, statewide, and county wide since mine tell a very different story of openings and shortages. The county already gives 'critical' pay to some positions and is considering adding math and science (among others) positions to the list of critical pay eligible jobs.
I checked my calendar. This is not your week to put words in my mouth. (It's Denise's week). I NEVER claimed there was not a teacher shortage nationwide. YOUR commentary insinuated that the shortage of teachers was specific to Fayette county, which I've shown you is not true.

I have been told that Fayette County has a record number of coaching openings as well.
Imagine that. Is this a bad thing?
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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

I never said the teacher shortage was only in Fayette County...where did you come up with that?

I'm glad you now admit that there is indeed a shortage of good qualified teachers, and in some cases, teachers at all (be they good, qualified, or otherwise). This shortage is nationwide problem, it affects us here in Fayette County as well, and it is continuing to get worse.

I expect that you will continue you to see good teachers being competed for. I predict that the practice of 'service cancelable' loans, signing bonuses and incentive pay will continue and grow.

Teacher's that were once teaching 'out of field' without penalty are no longer permitted to teach those classes nor may they be counted as 'highly qualified'. This is going to magnify the problem with finding, among others, high school science teachers since they have so many other good paying job opportunities and the broadfield science certificate is not acceptable under the 'No child left behind' definition of 'Highly Qualified'.

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

Direct quote here:
Fayette County has a teacher shortage because they pay less than the surrounding counties do and if we can help them buy them a few items for their classroom by you donating a stamp for YOUR report card then GREAT.

Now, in my mind you're attempting to explain the local shortage of teachers away by claiming we pay teachers less here than in surrounding counties. And we probably do pay them less.

I fail to see any reference to the NATIONWIDE teacher shortage in your statement, so I assumed you were doing an apples-to-apples comparison to surrounding counties.

THAT is why I brought up the issue of vacancies, of which Fayette county has FAR FEWER vacancies compared to other surrounding counties, which I detailed in my initial blog entry above.

I still am convinced that in the overall scheme of things Fayette county is in a much better position than the surrounding counties.

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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Bas- do you believe there is a nationwide teacher shortage and a shortage in Fayette County or not?

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

From what I have read, there is an overall shortage of teachers in certain disciplines throughout the United States.

Having said that, I think this shortage will have a negligble effect on high quality school systems. I consider Fayette County to have a high quality school system and as the great Mixer himself has indicated, up until very recently we were getting 100+ applicants for every teaching opening.

If that number drops to 50 or so applicants per opening due to this "shortage" you'll forgive me if I don't view this as an impending sign of the Apocalypse.

This is simply my opinion. Feel free to find fault with it, as is your wont to do.

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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Direct quote here:
Fayette County has a teacher shortage because they pay less than the surrounding counties do and if we can help them buy them a few items for their classroom by you donating a stamp for YOUR report card then GREAT. (((All things being equal, teachers would want to teach in Fayette- I hope, it used to be that way - I am told it still is on the 'south' end - what say you?)))

Now, in my mind you're attempting to explain the local shortage of teachers away by claiming we pay teachers less here than in surrounding counties. And we probably do pay them less. (((okay - you and I agree)))))

I fail to see any reference to the NATIONWIDE teacher shortage in your statement, so I assumed you were doing an apples-to-apples comparison to surrounding counties. (You assume that I do not think there is a National Teacher shortage??? BAD assumption bas - I am all too aware of the shortage)))))

THAT is why I brought up the issue of vacancies, of which Fayette county has FAR FEWER vacancies compared to other surrounding counties, which I detailed in my initial blog entry above.

(((( READ CAREFULLY YOUR OWN STATS BELOW BAS ))))

Fayette: 32 teaching vacancies - 22,400 students

Fulton County: 1 teaching vacancy - 82,000 students.

The only system you listed that is actually worse off is Clayton who had their SACS accreditation suspended two years ago and is still growing and has less than half the median income and level of education as Fayette County.

I still am convinced that in the overall scheme of things Fayette county is in a much better position than the surrounding counties.

((((I personally do not want to be like Clayton County or use them as the benchmark. I am also troubled that we are having as much or more trouble than anyone else you have named except for Clayton in filling vacancies.))))

Regardless, if you are happy, I am happy.

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

What county are you referring to? This county does not give any 'critical' pay that I'm aware of. I wish they did! The highly qualified status that you referred to is for special ed teachers and is is part of the new federal regulations required for spec ed teachers that are teaching a resource class, or are a 'teacher of record' (from what I understand). Basically, one has to have a degree in spec ed and a degree in the subject that is being taught on the resource level. A lot of teachers have had to take (and pay) for additional college classes to obtain this status. Some of us were lucky and already held degrees in multiple areas. I foresee a shortage of spec ed teachers and said spots being filled by anyone that wants to get their foot in the door and is willing to "take on" a spec ed position for a year. Too bad for the kids.

Highly Qualified Requirements:
The No Child Left Behind act requires that (by the end of the 2005-06 school year) all teachers be "highly qualified" as defined in the law. A highly qualified teacher is one who has fulfilled the state's certification and licensing requirements. New teachers must meet the following requirements:

* Possess at least a bachelor's degree (not new)
* Elementary teachers must pass a state test demonstrating their subject knowledge and teaching skills in reading/language arts, writing, mathematics and other areas of basic elementary school curricula.(New in most areas)
* Middle and high school teachers must pass a state test in each academic subject area they teach, plus have either an undergraduate major, a graduate degree, coursework equivalent to an undergraduate major or an advanced certification or credentialing. (This is new)

Teachers not new to the profession must hold a bachelor's degree and must pass a state test demonstrating subject knowledge and teaching skills. These requirements have caused some difficulty in implementation especially for special education teachers and teachers in small rural schools who are often called upon to teach multiple grades and subjects

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind
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The biggest change is that those who in the past held 'Provisional' or 'Probational' certificates are not considered 'Highly Qualified' and are no longer being hired. Fayette county no longer issues or allows provisional certificates. (I know a guy with a degree in micro-biology from Harvard - yes, that Harvard- who was denied a teaching certificate and a job until he takes and passes two classes in Georgia on special needs kids and the 'Praxis' (whatever that is). He opted to go to work for the CDC in Atlanta instead of taking the two 'education classes'.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/methods/teachers/hqtflexibility.html
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If you talk to Greg Stillions he can tell you which teaching fields your county is considering paying supplemental pay (and even a 'signing bonus'). This proposal has been floated before and is up once again for consideration. (Hint: Chris Horton favors it.)

The U.S. Secretary of Education has approved the following areas as Georgia's critical teacher shortage areas:
2005-2006

* Behavior Disorders (P-12)
* Biology (7-12)
* Business and Office Education
* Chemistry (7-12)
* French (7-12) or (P-12)
* Health Occupations
* Hearing Impaired (P-12)
* Interrelated/Special Education (P-12)
* Orthopedically Impaired (P-12)
* Trade & Industry
* Visually Impaired (P-12

Note: Broad field Scince is NO LONGER permitted.

If you look at the (already) posted openings, you will see that most of them are in the critical shortage field. This list does not include the openings that will occur in July and August.

http://www.fcboe.org/application/user/vacancies.asp

I hope this helped clear up a few of your questions.

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Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

I didn't realize that Fayette County was in a situation where they ever had to hire teachers with a provisional, or probational certificate (unless it was one of the soldier to teacher deals) for any areas other than spec ed. One learns something new each day. The PRAXIS has been replaced by the GACE and it is a test that proves that you know the subject matter you are teaching. As far as I know, both middle and high school teachers have always had to take said test to become certified and middle school teachers were required to have a 'concentration' of classes in the subject they would be teaching upon graduation, while high school ed majors actually had to major in their subject matter. I came in through the back door and so I never really knew for sure! Thanks for the information.

A friendly suggestion. You appear to be a teacher.

If you do not educate the community in the differences between school performance, teacher performance, and student performance, you will be blamed anytime your students do not achieve at the level they have in the past or at the level the community thinks they should.

Some of the best teaching in the nation occurs where student achievement is lowest.

I am sure you know that you can 'teach your fanny off' with some students who will simply still not perform on standardized tests while others will perform at the top of the scale regardless of the instructional effort.

The average person does not appear to understand that what is offered by the school, and how it is offered is as critical as who is delivering the instruction and which method they use to deliver said curriculum.

I hope you do not get to the point where your job performance is judged purely by the success of your students output on standardized tests alone. Without a pretest a post test is worthless.

Thank you for what you do and best of luck!

Democrats on Iraq before the polls changed

Documentation is a big part of my job, because, sometimes, we have to measure progress in teaspoons. The general public (including some parents) want cupfuls and sometimes, that's just not how it happens. Everybody (these days) smells a lawsuit, so we chug along and document each step. It's not like when I was in school.

Wildcat,
I am interested in teaching after 25 years in the corporate world, it is time to step away. I have no teacher certs, however, I do have the educational background along with many years of coaching sports.
How do I start the process?

Click Here: Georgia Alternate Teaching Certification Checklist

Interesting...you can have a degree from Harvard, but you still have to take a basic reading/writing/math test...unless you send the state of Georgia your ancient SAT scores!
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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

Got my site from the state of Georgia web page.

Got any proof (no Newsweek polls!) that this site is "obsolete" or are you just flapping your gums randomly this morning?

As an aside, didja transfer yer kids to that stellar learning institution of learning (Morrow High School) yet?

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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Is that the same state of Georgia web page where mixer got the 37 schools in Newsweek list that you think is bogus and that you wrongly stated figures free lunch in to the equation?? You are on a roll basmati. Are you sure it's mixer on drugs and not you??

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

By promoting a web site dedicated to trying to end the shortage. HA! Great bas- tell you what - keep researching and get back to us.

Here's a start for you: An OLD webpage from Rockdale County:

GA TAPP Initiatives
The Georgia Teacher Alternative Preparation Program is designed to attract highly motivated professionals from outside the teaching profession who hold a Bachelor's or higher degree in math or science or a closely related degree field and are interested in pursing a teaching career. Rockdale County Public Schools will be participating in this program through Metro-RESA. Currently, Metro-RESA is accepting applications from candidates for a math, science, or a closely related degree program. Candidate will receive a minimum of two years of training that will lead to teacher certification in middle school or high school math or science.

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

Georgia Professional Standards Commission Website

Care to show me anything "obsolete", Enigma?

Ooooooh...here's the "money quote"!
Alternative Routes - Obtaining a Georgia certificate while you work as an educator. Designed for "career switchers" who already hold degrees and have various life experiences, as well as former educators with expired or invalid certificates who wish to return to the classroom. These routes are not limited to, but are of particular importance when completed in high need, shortage fields such as math, science, foreign language and special education.

Care to admit that...just this once...you were mistaken?
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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Your blog states that "the teacher shortage is an urban legend" ....well bas, you are talking about a program that was designed to help with that shortage.

So were you wrong when you claimed there was no shortage or do you still claim there is NO TEACHER SHORTAGE and that the TAPP program was just for recreational purposes?? Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now??

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

I have said that nationwide there may be a teacher shortage.

My blog was about FAYETTE COUNTY's perceived teacher shortage, an altogether different subject.

As with most upscale counties, Fayette county has NOT been SIGNIFICANTLY adversely impacted by this nationwide trend. Like your buddy Mixer said, up until recently we had 100+ applicants for every open position.

I stand by everything I've said in this thread. I've got facts to back me up. You've got personal insults, speculation and precious little else.

Bottom line: You and Mixer believe Morrow/Lovejoy High Schools are "better" schools than FCHS. Hutch and I...and I suspect the vast majority of people here...would disagree with your characterization.

I'm going to go outside and run, it's too nice a day to argue. You can have the last word and pretend you "won" the debate.

P.S. The prof standards (2007) page links to the TAPP page (2001). Do websites have expiration dates now?
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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

What basmati said: "Bottom line: You and Mixer believe Morrow/Lovejoy High Schools are "better" schools than FCHS. Hutch and I...and I suspect the vast majority of people here...would disagree with your characterization.

This is a flat out lie and typical of you. This is one reason why you are so disliked on this site.

CLICK HERE for proof that basmati is lying about what mixer and I said

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

Shouldn't you be asking Newsweek that question? Mixer was asked to show where Mundy's Mill was ranked higher than FCHS - he did. Now you want me to transfer my kids? Aside from you ignoring nearly everything he said, and being to ignorant to follow his discussion, you are now confusing me with a liberal national rag like 'Newsweek'? You need drugs my lost liberal puppy.

My Child is in Private School.
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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

The entire crux of yer buddy Mixer's argument was based on a Newsweek magazine "ranking"!

I'm surprised that you DON'T want your kids to go the "Best" schools!

Oh wait....no I'm not.

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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

..... using student performance or any other criteria bas?

Let's play. Where is your child in school? Since you have such trouble reading for comprehension- I'll be glad to do the research.

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Ground Zero - What Radical Islam Wants for You and Your Family

Changing the subject now, are we?

This whole thread has been about Mixer's conjecture that Mundy's Mill/Morrow/Lovejoy (depending on the phase of the moon, I guess) is a "better" school than Fayette County.

Now that Mixer's (and your) arguments have been thoroughly demolished, you want to change the subject and compare public school apples to private school oranges.

Why don't you use your phenomenal research skillz to find out about the quote obsolete unquote TAPP program and get back to me?
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The 12 Warning Signs of Fascism