Might be worth reading:

American Mourning : The Intimate Story of Two Families Joined by War, Torn by Beliefs

Review

The point is how many other parents act this way?

"a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol" -- The only thing that each of us can do is NOT to be that kind of person, and to be parents who raise our children with a sense of civic responsibility and respect for this country. Evidently Mrs. Sheehan and/or Mr. Sheehan accomplished this because their son voluntarily joined to serve this country.

To all those who serve, past and present, thank you for your sacrifice.

Denise,
I agree with what you said about how each of us can only do our best, and I also agree about supporting those who serve, past and present. However, I'd like to separate support for our troops from support for this war in Iraq.

I don't agree with you about the war in Iraq being synonymous with the war on terror. When we attacked Afghanistan, THAT was the war on terrorism, and we had the backing of most of the world, as it was clearly justified by the events of 9/11. Hunting down Al Queda and killing them wherever we find them--that's the war on terrorism. Attacking Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein was a mistake, and it was poorly planned and executed, as subsequent results have made amply clear. Saddam was an evil man who deserved to die, but our national interests were not served by this action. The question now is what do we do to fix this mess and bring our troops home. It's analogous to an accident victim with a mangled, badly infected leg. Do you try to save the leg, or do you amputate to save the victim's life? You can appeal to emotion and say "Oh no, we HAVE to save the leg at all cost!" But that might cost the victim his/her life. On the other hand, you could be too quick to amputate, when antibiotics could have worked. Either way, the wrong decision is tragic. We have to make our medical decisions rationally, not emotionally. The same applies to the war in Iraq.
Please don't lump all liberals together. This isn't about liberals versus conservatives. It's about what's best for this country. I don't consider myself a liberal or conservative. I consider myself a pragmatist. Whatever works--let's get 'r done. Meanwhile, we are in a pickle, and blind allegiance to one side or the other is not the solution.

"Please don't lump all liberals together." -- I definitely try not to do so, but the more vocal ones seem to be the voice of the Democratic Party. There are, at times, a slight pulls toward the center, but not for long.

"It's about what's best for this country." -- Couldn't agree more, but, to face reality, there will always be differences of opinion as to what is "best."

"removing Saddam Hussein was a mistake" -- Some have changed their minds.

"He believed in this war. . . . He knew what Saddam Hussein had done to that country. He had seen all those gaudy, golden palaces he had built for himself while Iraqi children went hungry; he had met some of the families whose lives he had wrecked and he knew about the killings he had ordered—the hundreds of thousands of killings."

"On the Fairness of Life"
by Marguerite Kelly (4/17/07), on the fourth anniversary of her son's death

There are never any easy answers with war, but I believe that both sides believed that going into Iraq was necessary. Some just want to re-write history and pretend that they didn't.

"The question now is what do we do to fix this mess and bring our troops home." -- Agree, but saying that the war is lost and attacking the Commander in Chief delights Islamists all over the world. (A house divided analogy)

"I'd like to separate support for our troops from support for this war in Iraq." -- Then do it in private discussions, not in public announcements that can be used to stir up hate that's used against our troops and citizens all over the world.

"blind allegiance" -- Best to avoid in all areas of life.

That's why I'm not buying this immigration "reform" that we're being told is not amnesty.

__________________________

The wisdom of hindsight, so useful to historians and indeed to authors of memoirs, is sadly denied to practicing politicians. ~ Margaret Thatcher

Well, if we are going to be angry with Saddam for building mansions when his people were hungry, then we should invade and kill off those in Newport, West Palm Beach, The Hamptons, Evander Hollifield's place, and many others, shouldn't we?
He hired workers to build the mansions and fed them.
Then he killed some of them. In that case we better invade Iran, China, Russia, Darfur, Plus 12 other African countries, and on and on.
Logic flawed!

Denise,
Thanks for the links, but let me point out that we didn't go to war to save the poor Iraqis from Saddam. That would be kind of "liberal", don't you think? Supposedly, we went to war to protect US interests from the strategic threat posed by Saddam and his WMD. I don't want to re-hash the whole "WMD" issue, but suffice it to say that there were a lot of us in the military at the time who were skeptical about that threat. I was an enthusiastic participant in the war in Afghanistan, as I have mentioned previously, so I'm not against the use of force when it's appropriate. I just think that Saddam was the lesser of two evils, compared with Al Queda and Iranian fundamentalism.

One last point--you say about dissent "Then do it in private discussions, not in public announcements that can be used to stir up hate that's used against our troops and citizens all over the world." So what you are saying is that we shouldn't have any public dissent over this war. Funny, but that's a big part of what I thought I was defending when I was on active duty for 24 years. I'm not stirring up hate or anti-Americanism by saying that I have serious doubts about this war. If we silence dissent, we surrender freedom. I'm not ready to do that.

"didn't go to war to save the poor Iraqis from Saddam" / "went to war to protect US interests from the strategic threat posed by Saddam and his WMD" -- Point made

"a lot of us in the military at the time who were skeptical about that threat" -- Seriously, is this true? I thought almost everyone was surprised that WMD's weren't found after what SH had done in the past & all of the talk about his large (?) supply. I guess I just presumed that he had gotten rid of the WMD's since there was such a long time before troops actually arrived, or that he'd been selling off them all along to have cash for his lavish life-style (but keeping up the talk that he still possessed them), or that they were well hidden. (It's been a long time ago, & the facts that I've heard are not that clear now.)

Discussion is what we're doing here: calm, reasonable, no name-calling. The same should be done in Washington. That's what I meant by "private" -- not airing your dirty laundry for all the world to see.

"I'm not stirring up hate or anti-Americanism by saying that I have serious doubts about this war." -- No, not the way that you're doing it. Hating President Bush and being blinded by that hate clouds one's judgment. I just don't trust those who express such disdain for him. I question their putting the country ahead of their political motives.

And, yes, that can happen on both sides. I just don't hear Bush making statements like the ones that Dems make. In fact, sometimes I wish he would tell some of them ....

Suppose that troops should have not have gone into Irag. That was Bush's call, and he has to live with the consequences. (I realize there are many others involved. Just trying to simplify.) What would you do differently now that we're there?

"Al Queda and Iranian fundamentalism" -- Isn't Al-Qaeda all over the Middle East & a lot of other places? Do you think that we should have gone into Iran instead of Iraq? How would you solve all of this?

Thank you for your service in Afghanistan. My questions are sincere; no sarcasm intended. Thanks!

____________________________

I am in politics because of the conflict between good and evil, and I believe that in the end good will triumph. ~ Margaret Thatcher

To be honest, I thought that there would be more WMDs than what we found. We expected chemical weapons at the least. However, it didn't appear to be a strategic threat to the US. Saddam got burned in Desert Storm and didn't appear to be in any hurry to repeat that mistake. We could have left him alone for a few more years. Our enforcing the northern and southern no-fly lines was keeping him in check, even if it was a nuisance. Every few days, one of his anti-aircraft sites would take a potshot at one of our aircraft, and we would retaliate by bombing the site. Our aim was a lot better. It was somewhat of a stalemate, but it was hurting Saddam's regime, and time was on our side. This is just my opinion, but I think that Bush wanted to break the stalemate sooner rather than later, and that was his real motivation, not any immediate threat from WMD. If so, I fully understand the intent, but we should have waited longer. If you play chess, you know that sometimes you have to wait for your opponent to make a mistake, then you pounce. Bush got impatient, in my opinion.

You ask a very good question. Now that we are where we are, what do we do? I wish I had a great answer, but I don't. We can't just pull out and hand Iraq to Al Queda and/or Iran. But we can't stay there indefinitely, and continue to take casualties at the current rate. (Time is NOT on our side anymore!) We need to find some politically acceptable process for a gradual withdrawal. I think Bush is probably working on that, behind the scenes. Perhaps the recent talks with Iran will lead to something. If not Bush, then our next president will have to find a way out. If you remember the exit process from Vietnam, and how it started with Nixon, but ended up in Gerald Ford's lap, we may be looking at something similar in the next year or so.

I totally agree with you that now is NOT the time for loud public spear throwing by our politicians on either side. We are all in this together, and we need to pull together as a nation.

Thanks!

My personal opinion is that it is ghoulish to use the death of one of your children to further your political cause(s). That's why I look at people like the Bernall family (Columbine), Cindy Sheehan, and that woman Deborah Tainsh (who is coming to lecture Fayette republicans this week) with something of a jaundiced eye.

Nevertheless, it is interesting that people like Cindy Sheehan upset the right wingnuts of American politics so much that they had produce a thinly veiled hit piece on her with the pro-war diatribe "American Mourning". I love it when the fascists amongst us tell us how to grieve.

I notice the "review" from "Dr." Laura...I'm wondering if Denise has been following the latest Dr. Laura news. It seems her son Deryk, a soldier in Afghanistan, has an interesting little sideline writing "how to" guides for molesting children and torturing people on MySpace. Tsk, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree!

“Ghoulish” –- I’d suggest that you use a thesaurus (sounds like a species of dinosaur) to augment your acerbic arsenal.

Your "Denise" picture –- At least you didn’t choose a “girly-man” picture. To quote JeffC, “Yuck!”

The source of your cartoon: Reclusive Leftist: feminism, politics, and random pedantry with your host, Dr. Violet Socks [who is NOT a licensed professional but is a doctor of gonzo (slang for bizarre, unconventional). Gonzo pornography puts the camera right into the action -- often with one or more of the participants both filming and performing sex acts – and uses far fewer full-body/wide shots and more close-ups (reality porn). Gonzo porn has "more sex," per se, than a “traditional” “adult” video. My, that sentence would be hard to say with a straight face.]

Warning: VILE language, but what would you expect from a leftist feminist

“Taking bets that the latest murder-suicide mother was a conservative Christian” –- I have absolutely no idea whether our latest mom-gone-**** was a **** or not.

“Humor is no longer possible” -- On good days, when I’m not feeling too depressed [I’d be depressed, too, if these kinds of thoughts were mine], I dash off the occasional post that attempts to deliver the ****-You-Patriarchy message

Radfem Refreshment -- The First Carnival of Radical Feminists (nice picture)

“Garrison Keillor, the voice of oblivious White Male Privilege”

“Remembering America’s Apostle of Hate” – About . . . (bet you can’t guess)

“A godbag is a bag full of hate and self-loathing wearing stage makeup that makes it look like a televangelist.”

“Crushing blow for pig-worshipping heathen white-supremacists everywhere”

“Jesus really, really wants you to be his Valentine”

___________________________________

“jaundiced eye” -- Yellowish discoloration of the whites of the eyes (when vodka is your poison), skin, and mucous membranes caused by deposition of bile salts in these tissues. Jaundice is not a disease but rather a sign that can occur with many different diseases, including hepatitis [usually occurring in chronic alcoholics and can be acquired from intravenous drug use], syphilis, parasitic infestations [such as can be acquired from certain practices that you’ve mentioned elsewhere], cirrhosis [which can be caused by alcoholism].

Besides the cosmetic issues of looking (and acting) yellow and affecting certain excretions, the symptom that is most frequently associated with jaundice is itching, medically known as pruritus. The itching associated with jaundice and cholestasis (especially in the presence of a Republican or even at the mere thought of a Christian) can sometimes be so severe that it causes patients to scratch their skin “raw,” have trouble sleeping, and, rarely, even to commit suicide.

“Jaundiced eye” indicates a state or feeling of negativity or bitterness, arising especially from envy or world-weariness. This condition is highly contagious, causing others around you to have a prejudiced (biased, warped, as in a moral deviation) view of life. Isolation is recommended to avoid spreading your misery to others.

I’d suggest that you seek treatment immediately and avoid such websites as womensspace, reclusiveleftist, huffingtonpost [HuffPo], democraticunderground [DU], etc.

___________________________________

“I love it when the fascists amongst us tell us how to grieve.” -- Grief expert now, Bas/MAV?

As a political epithet used to denigrate people, the word fascist is generally meant to mean "oppressive," "intolerant," "chauvinist," or "aggressive." Terms like "Nazi" and "Hitler" are often used in similarly superficial contexts.

By 1944, the term had already become so widely and loosely employed, that British essayist and novelist George Orwell [author of Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four ("Big Brother is watching you")] was moved to write: “It would seem that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print.”

During the late 1960s and 1970s, fascist was popular term used by liberals to describe a wide range of individuals, governments, and public institutions. The term was often paired with other insulting terms, the most common being pig, as in fascist-pig. It basically served as an emotive substitute for "authoritarian" (otherwise known as, "anal-retentive").

In the 1980s the term was used by leftist critics to describe the Reagan administration and in the 2000s, the George W. Bush administration. In her 1982 book Beyond Mere Obedience radical activist and “theologian” Dorothee Sölle coined the term Christofascist to describe fundamentalist
Christians.

So by 2004, Samantha Power, lecturer at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, reflected Orwell's words from 60 years previously when she said, "Fascism -- unlike Communism, socialism, capitalism or conservatism -- is a smear word more often used to brand one's foes than it is a descriptor used to shed light on them."

___________________________________

Deborah Tainsh’s step-son, U.S. Army Sgt. Patrick Tainsh, was killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq on February 11, 2004. Writing initially to sort out her own grief, Deborah captured the raw and tender moments of her family’s sorrow and remembrance. Her book Heart of a Hawk: One Family’s Sacrifice and Journey Toward Healing brings readers into the Tainsh family’s living room as Deborah and her husband, retired USMC Sergeant Major David L. Tainsh, hear the tragic news of their son’s death and begin their struggle toward acceptance and peace.

A portion of all proceeds from Heart of a Hawk is donated to the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors. As a TAPS mentor, Deborah talks with military families across the nation, sharing her family's continuing journey of grief, love, and hope while celebrating a son's courageous life with the message that "our children expect no less courage and giving from us than what they showed the world."

“Well-Known Author Deborah Tainsh to Speak in Fayetteville”

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She Said Yes: The Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall

In the years since the massacre that took their only daughter’s life, Misty and Brad Bernall’s courageous efforts to turn tragedy to good -- by sharing Cassie’s own hard-earned triumph over confusion and rebellion -- have been rewarded beyond their greatest expectations. Their book, a New York Times bestseller, has sold over a million copies.

The book, which People Magazine called “a poignant wake-up call to parents,” has encouraged hundreds of thousands of parents to get more involved in their teenagers’ lives. And, if the thousands of responses received on the Bernalls' website are any indication, it has inspired at least as many teenagers to make their lives and relationships count. One woman was so challenged by Cassie’s story that she decided to start an orphanage in Honduras, which opened officially on April 20, 2000 as The Cassie Bernall Home for Children.

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“the ‘review’ from ‘Dr.’ Laura” – First of all, the “review” is “from a press release,” not Dr. Laura’s personal opinion. You should enhance your reading skills.

The book American Mourning is available from Amazon.

I suppose that you’re also questioning Dr. Schlessinger’s professional background. If you had taken the time to ascertain the validity of your facts, you would have discovered this about her educational background:

• BS, Biological Sciences, SUNY Stonybrook, Long Island, NY
• MS, M Phil, Ph.D. (Physiology), Columbia University (College of Physicians and Surgeons), NY
• Post-Doctoral Certification in Marriage, Family and Child Counseling, Human Relations Center, University of Southern California, Los Angeles
• Licensed Marriage, Family and Child Counselor (MFCC), California, formerly in private practice for 12 years
• Past member of the Biological Sciences faculty of the University of Southern California (five years) and the graduate Psychology faculty of Pepperdine University (eight years)
• UCLA and UC Irvine Extension course instructor

You will also find a listing of Dr. Schlessinger’s numerous awards and interviews and media appearances.

Bas/MAV, feeling inferior?

I also recommend her books (NY Times best-sellers):

• Bad Childhood, Good Life: How to Blossom and Thrive in Spite of an Unhappy Childhood
• Woman Power: Transform Your Man, Your Marriage, Your Life
• The Proper Care & Feeding of Husbands
• Ten Stupid Things Couples Do To Mess Up Their Relationships
• Parenthood by Proxy: Don’t Have Them if You Won’t Raise Them
• The Ten Commandments: The Significance of God’s Laws in Everyday Life
• How Could You Do That?! The Abdication of Character, Courage and Conscience
• Ten Stupid Things Men Do To Mess Up Their Lives
• Ten Stupid Things Women Do To Mess Up Their Lives

Dr. Laura also contributed the foreword to The New Thought Police: Inside the Left's Assault on Free Speech and Free Minds by Tammy Bruce.

If the reading level of these books is too difficult, the following children’s books might be more appropriate:

• But I Waaannt It!
• Why Do You Love Me?
• Growing Up Is Hard
• Where's God?

___________________________________

Was your source for the information about Dr. Laura’s son one of the following?

Wonkette, known for its for “its mixture of heady political discourse with repeated references to gin and anal sex,” [very likely to lead to jaundice]: Dr. Laura's Cretin Son -- We’re delighted to learn that the current crop of screaming idiots on talk radio are producing a more action-oriented spawn who are now bringing their special American Values™ directly to other countries.) * Vile language warning *

Gay Orbit, with such informatively vile articles (and pictures) as “How to Survive Pride”: Dr. Laura’s Dysfunctional Son, Deryk -- When you’re brought up in a screwed up family…

Democratic Underground, where at least one comment posted was unbiased: You never know with myspace, so I'll reserve judgement [sic] until they know for sure. And there was that student that got mad at their teacher a few months ago and made up a page about them. It's Myspace. Anyone can pretty much make up anything on there.) [A sane Dem at DU – how refreshing!]

The Carpetbagger Report: Right-wing talk radio gasbag Dr. Laura Schlessinger apparently didn’t do a very good job raising her son.

** Do "left-wing" parents ever have any trouble with their children? I don't why, but Alec Baldwin comes to mind. I could mention some other well-known Democrats, but, hopefully, you get my point. Also, Dr. Laura's son is 21, I believe, and no longer a minor child living at home. **

___________________________________

According to the unbiased reporting of KEYT TV, Channel 3, an ABC affiliate in Santa Barbara:

The Army is looking into whether her son posted images of rape, torture and child molestation on-line.

Military Officials say "the enemy" may have put the alleged pictures on Deryk Schlessinger's MySpace web page.

If investigators find the allegations to be true, Army officials say discipline could range from a letter of reprimand to a case going to The Court Marshal.

___________________________________

Santa Barbara’s Independent reported [rather biased coverage, in my opinion: “cutthroatly conservative,” “attacked by Dr. Laura’s fiercely loyal fans,” “reeked,” “miffed,” “raging,” “combative,” “back in Santa Barbara, the dwindling number of News-Press readers who are fans of Dr. Laura”]

Journalist Matthew LaPlante [whose reporting is described as “fair and detailed”] wrote a story in the Salt Lake Tribune, published May 14, about a statement that Dr. Laura had made about the military.

Dr. Laura responded that she had been quoted out of context. (Now, that’s hard to believe, isn’t it?) She appeared on Bill O’Reilly’s TV show, but LaPlante would not come on to defend his reporting.

LaPlante, who revealed the allegations against Dr. Laura's son in a May 19 article, “was tipped after his initial Dr. Laura story ran by a SL Trib reader who was a classmate of Deryk’s,” according to the Independent.

___________________________________

The timing of LaPlante’s second article seems, well, slightly more than coincidental, but I will wait until all of the facts come out. To do less would be prejudicial, or “jaundiced,” exhibiting the same kind of envy, prejudice, and hostility that the Bas/MAVs of this world so often do.

___________________________________

Yes, Denise, "ghoulish" is entirely apt.

I can see why "American Mourning" appeals to someone like you...it takes someone's death and callously uses it to make right-wing political statements.

Just like YOU did when those kids got massacred at Virginia Tech!

Dead bodies make such an effective backdrop when it comes to advancin' your cause, don't they!

It's "Delightful Denise," remember? Delightful Denise would be so much more conducive to congenial communication.

Still calling me “ghoulish”? Such puerile epithets do not become you at all.

I must point out, once again, your mendacious mischaracterization of my post. Your refusal to adhere to logical debate principles reveals your paucity of analytical skills.

I responded to your statement, “Nothing like a tragedy for an excuse to push your political agenda, is there little major?”

___________________________

Later you chided my remarks and called me “crass.” Here is how I responded:

People say all kinds of things in the face of a tragedy; mostly they look for solutions to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

The Honorable Major & Penta are not elected officials, at least here in cyberspace, & were not "further[ing] their own political agenda" any more than you do when you open your mouth. They have a right to express their thoughts as a way of making sense of tragedy and responding to those who plan to use this tragedy to change laws….

___________________________

Of course, you were not “crass” when you made these posts (to list a few):

The best one line summary of the Virginia Tech massacre:

“The sheer number of people using this tragedy to pimp their personal causes and beliefs is nothing short of astounding.”

"Bring your guns to work!" bill is dead

Congratulations to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's Cynthia Tucker

You praised Cynthia Tucker who had written a column, “America’s Love Affair with Guns Breeds Bloody Results,” days before the Va. Tech shootings and "Pushing Guns for All Students Cartoonish Idea" in response to the shootings.

___________________________

Then, of course, I must mention your response to the announcement of Judge Whalen’s death in The Citizen: The Ice Cream Bandit Judge.

When Jerry Falwell died, you immediately posted: Rev. Jerry Falwell is dead.

“The man who once pronounced that "God is a Republican" is dead. Hallelujah.”

Basmati Sings!

Hey, Ghoul, don't make things bad
Take evil things, and laugh that they're swell
Remember that your true master will await
So please don't be late, when you go to hell.

Another song!

Oh, where oh where can my Jerry be?
The Lord took him away from me
He's not in Heaven, and this cannot be good
Coz I want to see Jerry when I leave this world.

Falwell Fallout

The best reply I heard to answer this misdirection ploy: "Serial killer and cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer undoubtedly did some good things for someone in his life, as well. That, however, is not for what he will be remembered for."

God Kills Falwell (Best. Headline. EVAR! [You added a smilie here.]

It seems that you "callously use[d] [Falwell's death] to make [left]-wing political statements." Your sanctimoniousness is quite unbecoming.

Well Banmati, I see Ms. Conner made a point-by-point refutation of every claim you made in your post. I also noticed you didn't reply to any of her arguments -- instead you make more personal attacks. Ms. Conner keeps kicking your behind in every match -- go off and cry to mommy.

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Life is too short to respond to your ghoulfriend Denise's pissy little "gotcha" questioning.

Lengthy cut-n-pastes with precious original thought may appeal to bottom-feeders like you, but you'll forgive me if I ignore her incessant squealing. Feel free to interpret this as a "victory" for your side.

Rejoiced in any dead teenagers lately?

Regressing, aren't you?

"Life is too short to respond" equates to "I lack the logical skills to answer a question; therefore, I resort to puerile epithets."

"bottom-feeder"-- You really should improve your vocabulary!

The term bottom-feeder is a pejorative political or colloquial term used to describe an allegedly predatory (or simply desperate) person or entity. The implication in this usage is that the accused bottom feeder intentionally targets the easiest or weakest people to achieve personally profitable ends. Such a person is an opportunist who profits from the misfortunes of others.

I have in no way profited from anyone's death; therefore, your use of this pejorative is inappropriate. In fact, I've been the victim of your verbal assaults for weeks. You seem to have received all of the benefits, not me.

Children ages 4 and 5 may go through a phase of using inappropriate language; but, when adults continue this habit, it reveals a lack of articulation and a poor vocabulary.

My suggestion

Bonne chance! ¡Buena suerte!

Life is too short
Lame excuse for what you're really saying: "I'm just too dumb to reply to intelligent Denise!"

p***y
Well still can't keep not referring to bodily functions can you? I'm having a hard time deciding if you're a bratty little 6 year old girl or a rude 13 year boy who likes crass jokes.

"gotcha" questioning
Well you're just jealous you don't have her debating skills. Admit it.

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Ya know, if you're gonna comment on my intelligence, you should at least spell check the title of your post!

Hey ghoul, if it was Denise's kids lying bleeding to death on the ground, would you
A) be a gentleman and give her the first opportunity to use her kids deaths for political purposes?
B) Elbow her out of the way to use her dead kids as props for your own political causes?
or
C) Offer to arm-wrestle her to see who goes first?

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not Denise and have impeccable spelling skills. My apologies for a small typo of leaving out one letter. I can point out some of your misspellings if you'd like. Want me to? But there again you throw out a red herring -- you just can't stay on topic can you, Ms. Fredi?

And how about choice D: give first aid and leave politics out of it. I guess you wouldn't think of that though as you would be too busy ranting and raving about the evil "Christanists." Or you would be saying "hallelujah!" that a political enemy was down, wouldn't you, Most Annoying Veteran™?

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Thanks for the update, it's kinda hard to tell you and Denise apart sometimes.

And the thought of you giving aid to someone in need was quite a larf, ghoulboy!

Thank you very much for the compliment, Ms. Fredi. I'm glad you think I'm similar to the smart, talented, and intelligent Ms. Conner.

Just one name calling of "ghoul"? Basmati, I'm really disappointed in you. I expected at least 3 or 4. Come on! I know you can do better than that!

And for those of you that don't know, "larf" means laughing so hard you, well, umm...have an embarrassing episode. At least Ms. Fredi is open about her private moments.

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Rules of debate are that you compare like to like. The Bernall family has never used what happened to their daughter to enhance a political candidate. In fact, after reviewing their website, I don't find an endorsement of anyone.

Secondly, no matter what evil her son may have done, you have to attack a position that Dr. Laura holds on its merit or lack thereof.

Guilt by association wouldn't be allowed by the judges of a real debate.

If you have points of factual substance (or additional items) on the above items, I'd be happy to discuss.

unruly, intractable, refractory, recalcitrant, headstrong, wayward -- Sound like anyone who posts here?

Argumentum ad hominem, literally "argument directed at the man," occurs when, instead of trying to disprove the truth of an assertion, the arguer attacks the person or persons making the assertion. The debater appeals to personal considerations (the listener's emotions) rather than to logic or reason. The argument is based on the failings (or supposed failings) of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case. Ad hominem attacks on one's opponent are a tried-and-true strategy for people who have a case that is weak.

Argumentum ad hominem (or ad feminam if one is a touchy feminist) is invalid because the truth of an assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it.

Notice that Bas/Most Angry & Vicious does not give any evidence for his assertion that the book American Mourning is a “right wingnut” “thinly veiled hit piece” or a “pro-war diatribe” (a bitter, abusive denunciation of Sheehan or anyone else).

Ignoratio elenchi, roughly translated as ignorance of refutation, is the logical fallacy of arguing to the wrong point, or supposing that an argument proving an irrelevant point has proved the point at issue, or the main point.

Similar to ignoratio elenchi, a red herring is a logical fallacy that is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue being discussed so that everyone's attention is diverted away from the points being made, hopefully toward a different conclusion. One purports to prove one's point by means of irrelevant arguments. Critically, a red herring is a deliberate attempt to change the subject or divert the argument so that one does not have to prove one's points.

A discussion can be a method of confirming others in their errors, which isn't hard to do with Ignoratio Basmatio.

"I have tried every since he died to make his sacrifice meaningful," she wrote. "Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol than how many people will be killed in the next few months while Democrats and Republicans play politics with human lives.

.