2 U.S. senators for, 2 Ga. legislators against immigration compromise

Thu, 05/17/2007 - 1:57pm
By: Cal Beverly

[Editor’s note: Georgia’s senior and junior U.S. senators Thursday cautiously supported the proposed immigration reform bill before Congress. Their statements are below.]

Chambliss says immigration deal positive step but final bill must contain key provisions

WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., made the following statement regarding the bipartisan immigration deal announced [May 17]. Both Chambliss and his Georgia colleague, U.S. Senator Johnny Isakson, R-Ga., have been part of a group of senators meeting regularly to negotiate the agreement along with U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff and U.S. Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez.

“The bipartisan immigration deal announced today is a step in the right direction toward reaching a final, comprehensive immigration bill. However, certain criteria must be met in order for this legislation to receive my final support. My top priority in this debate is border security, because if we do not secure the border then we will fail to address a serious national security issue and we will fail to prevent future illegal immigration. The bill must not include a new pathway to citizenship for people who have come here illegally; rather, those who have come here illegally must go home and get in the back of the line if they want to apply for a green card.

“Finally, any temporary worker program must be just that – temporary - and American workers and American wages must not be harmed by a temporary worker program. Employers must be provided with a fool-proof verification system to ensure that prospective employees are legal, and once a system is created, employers who refuse to verify the status of their employees or who knowingly hire illegal workers should be severely punished.

“The agreement reached today is an improvement from last year’s bill. The way you make good laws is to have people from both sides of the aisle come together, and this was a highly committed group that came together to work on these issues that aren’t in the best interest of any particular political party, but rather in the best interest of the American people.”

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Isakson optimistic over bipartisan effort to reach compromise on immigration; says final bill must secure borders first, prohibit new pathway to citizenship

WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.) today expressed optimism over a bipartisan effort to reach a compromise on immigration legislation and again reiterated that any immigration reform bill must achieve two key principles at minimum: Require that the first step of comprehensive reform be to secure the U.S. borders and offer no new special pathway to citizenship for individuals who are in the United States illegally.

“The pressure is now on us. We have got to fix our broken borders. If Congress doesn’t appropriate the funds and the Secretary of Homeland Security doesn’t install the barriers, hire the agents, get the unmanned aerial vehicles in the sky or create a verifiable biometric identification card, there is no bill. This is a two-step process and the first step is to stop the problem,” Isakson said. “I am optimistic we will reach an agreement that can be the foundation for meaningful reform, security of our borders and respect for our immigration process.”

Comprehensive immigration legislation is in the final stages of being drafted and is expected to come to the Senate floor for debate next week. Isakson said he will reserve judgment on supporting the final bill until the debate is complete, but he said that at a minimum the bill must include his border security “trigger” prohibiting implementation of a temporary, probationary work permit program until the Department of Homeland Security certifies to the President and to the Congress that the border security provisions in the immigration legislation are fully funded and operational.

Isakson also said the bill must prohibit any new pathway to U.S. citizenship and must require illegal immigrants to return home and get at the back of the line to apply for citizenship just as everyone must do now.

During negotiations in crafting the legislation, Isakson has pushed his border security trigger that includes five specific provisions that must be in place before a guest worker program can begin:

• Manpower – authorizing a total of 18,000 full-time Border Patrol Agents.

• Detention beds – authorizing detention facilities with a total of 27,500 detention beds to end the practice of “catch and release.”

• Barriers – authorize additional barriers such as fences, roads or underground sensors along the entire U.S.-Mexico border.

• Unmanned Aerial Vehicles — authorize funds to acquire and maintain a squadron of at least four unmanned aerial vehicles with high-tech sensors and satellite communication to allow coverage on the border by an unmanned vehicle 24 hours a day.

• Biometrically secure ID – establish a biometric secure identification card program so employers can instantly verify an immigrants’ status.

In May 2006, during debate in the Senate on immigration reform, Isakson introduced a similar trigger amendment that would have prohibited the implementation of any program granting legal status to those who have entered the country illegally until the Secretary of Homeland Security had certified to the President and to the Congress that the border security provisions in the immigration legislation were funded and operational. The Senate defeated the amendment on May 16, 2006, by a vote of 40 yeas to 55 nays, but Isakson has gained even more support for his border security trigger in the year since.
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[Posted Thursday, May 17, 2007 — 5:02 p.m.]

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[Editor’s note: The following is a news release from two state legislators reacting to reports that Congress has reached agreement on immigration reform.]

The current debate in Washington D.C. over so-called “Immigration Reform” highlights the failure of our federal government. Instead of enforcing the current laws passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton in 1996, the current Congress seems determined to vote on new laws they haven’t even taken the time to read. It is government at its worst.

As Georgia legislators, we must deal with the failure of the federal government to secure our borders and enforce our current laws. It is incomprehensible that Congress would propose another amnesty plan after the dismal failure of the 1986 amnesty that has led us to this point.

We strongly urge the U.S. Congress to heed the findings and recommendations of the Jordan Commission on Immigration Reform of 1995. Congresswoman Jordan, a civil rights pioneer and Congressional Medal of Freedom winner, led a multi-year Blue Ribbon Commission to determine the problems and potential remedies of our illegal immigration crises. If Congress wants to find an answer, they should follow the lead of Congresswoman Jordan.

We further call on Congress to fulfill the most basic responsibility of creating law – debate and discussion. Recent reports suggest the “compromise” bill will go directly to the Senate floor. It is estimated to be hundreds of pages in length. This suggests that our senators will most likely vote on a bill they have never read, and a measure that has never been fully vetted in committee hearings.

The Senate has not even taken the time to determine the costs of such a “comprehensive” plan. According to expert testimony from a preliminary study to be given today to the U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee by Robert Rector of the highly respected Heritage Foundation, the cost of amnesty and earned citizenship for just 7.9 million amnesty recipients would be $2.4 trillion, a cost that must be born by the American taxpayer. It is unconscionable that any legislator could vote for a measure of this magnitude without knowing and debating all the costs involved.

We denounce any effort to create a so-called “Z-Visa” and touchback provision, which grants amnesty to those who have violated the laws of the United States. Such a plan gives preference to those who have violated the law over those who have followed the law and patiently await legal entrance into the United States.

We reject any idea, specifically those included in HR 1645 and S. 1348, that would effectively abolish the borders of the United States by eliminating the necessity to have a visa to travel anywhere on the North American continent.

We understand that the amnesty of 1986 proved beyond all doubt that the only real solution to solving the illegal immigration and illegal employment crisis in our nation is to secure American borders and hold employers accountable for violation of the law. We do not so cavalierly dismiss an employer’s violation of tax or pollution laws, yet somehow we are led to believe we should accept that a violation of immigration law should go unpunished.

Sadly, we have little faith in the current administration’s dedication to certify border security or operational control. Almost one-year has passed since President Bush signed a border security bill calling for the creation of an almost 700-mile physical barrier. To date only two miles have been completed.

It is our belief that no responsible elected official would even consider the fraud that is being offered as “comprehensive reform” in the U.S. Senate.

Sen. Chip Rogers (R-Woodstock)
Chairman, Georgia Senate Immigration Reform Caucus

Rep. John Lunsford (R-McDonough)
Chairman, Georgia House of Representatives Immigration Reform Caucus

# # # #

Sen. Chip Rogers serves as Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee. He represents the 21st Senate District which includes portions of Cherokee and Cobb counties. He can be reached at his office at 404.463.1378 or by email at chip.rogers@senate.ga.gov.

[The above news release was posted May 17, 2007 at 2:57 p.m.]

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Robert W. Morgan's picture
Submitted by Robert W. Morgan on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 6:44pm.

When someone as straight and principled as Johnny Isakson can sign on to the amnesty bill (yes that what it is) it shows you how Washington corrupts people. Mr. Smith goes to Washington? That was fantasy then and certainly is now.

How could ye Johnny? You must know this bill is garbage. Why not stand up and fight? You are our Senator and I am proud that you are, but this is such political nonsense. Do you know you are actually agreeing with Ted Kennedy on this?


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:14pm.

You really are naive Morgan. Bush is for the bill. What do you think Johnny is going to do, fight him? He never has and why should he now? Principles do not count. Only the winning side. True for the other joker we have as a senator also.
Both senators and Bush want those workers here and this lets it happen without doubt.
That is why I said years ago we should simply open the border totally, let them have driver's licenses, pay social security taxes, and be given a card. Everybody.

Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:42pm.

When I ride, (sorry, I mean drive) in Coweta county I see "them" gathering at a particular gas station waiting for someone to haul them off to a job site. Do you think that these people are going to pay $5,000? I'm afraid we're doomed.


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:48pm.

These guys make $12 to $15 dollars an hour tax free. Add the taxes in buddy and how much would you have to make to "clear" that kind of money after SS, Medicare, State and Federal Taxes...etc.

They come into my business with rolls of $100's and $20's. Dude... $5000 is not problem for the majority of them.

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 12:55pm.

All Mexican laborers I know about go for 8.00 to 11.00 per hour. A few make less, a few more. Just pick up a few on the corner and offer $10 and you will have a laborer.
That would amount to about $13.50 with taxes, etc., which is at the poverty level, even if they are able to work all year.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 1:37pm.

You only pay 8$ - $11 an hour? How shameless thou art. And you've got the nerve to criticize what Chick-Fil-A pays and the benefits they provide?

I would never stoop so low as to pay so little as you do. Eye-wink

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Cyclist's picture
Submitted by Cyclist on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 9:00pm.

OK, but will they pay it. I hate to judge but, I suspect they will not.


Submitted by TDK Foe on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:05pm.

As George Wallace once said, there is not a dime's worth of difference between the two parties. In hindsight, that great man, Ronald Reagan, was only an aberration. The country is once again in the grip of elites who don't give a damn about our laws or our massive federal debt. The Wall Street Republicans want the cheap labor for their corporations (where a CEO can make 10,000x more per hour than the average worker), and the Democrats want another special interest group that they can put on the government dole and make permanent wards of the federal largesse, thus buying their vote in perpetuity.

Have you noticed the similarity to our "conservative" local government? Like the national GOP, our city council couldn't care less if 85% of the city opposes destroying our comprehensive plan with stupid annexations, because they want to help their corporate friends. They will support a TDK road that 90% of PTC home owners oppose so the Coweta people (and some Fayette businessmen) make a buck - - even if it ruins our city. Madam DuBarry (of the French Revolution fame) said it best when she said democracy was nothing more than government sold to the highest bidder.

Submitted by bladderq on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 9:20pm.

Are U a dollaraphobe? Where do you git these figures?

"our city council couldn't care less if 85% of the city opposes destroying our comprehensive plan with stupid annexations"

What 85%? I think there were 650 sigs on a petition OR & how many against?

"They will support a TDK road that 90% of PTC home owners oppose " & YOU have these sigs on a petition or ballot to back this up? The last election had the current members 4 square in support of this...even Steve Brown was in support of this AND didn't he support west annex @ some point?

And back to the original point you raised, "our comprehensive plan" Which plan was that...the one that called for 80,000 residents or the one that suits you? The one I always refer to as "I am in the tree house..time to pull the ladder up."

You have a good train to git on however... "The country is once again in the grip of elites who don't give a damn about our laws or our massive federal debt. The Wall Street Republicans want the cheap labor for their corporations (where a CEO can make 10,000x more per hour than the average worker)"

We all have more in common with a black congressman from the Bronx NY than a rich frat-boy oil dude from TX (CT).

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:17pm.

Have you noticed the similarity to our "conservative" local government?

What local Conservative Government. Show me a real "Conservative Government" and I'll kiss your rumpus.

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Submitted by TDK Foe on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:27pm.

Our 5 council members are NOT conservatives, even though they may try to pass themselves off as mom-and-apple-pie, wave the flag types come votin' time!! Telephone lineman Harold may even put on his old Army uniform.

REAL conservatives, like the Founding Fathers, believed in the RULE OF LAW, and were strongly supportive of property rights. Our council members don't care about the home owners of this city or our property values - - they are working for corporate interests. Our council doesn't give a damn about our comprehensive plan (our local Constitution so to speak) that is decades old...they stepped all over it for Weiland and Leavitt...just for some tiny little campaign donation they think will come their way at election time.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 10:07am.

Uh, sorry people… these are conservatives. Except for the recent past when the Republican Party fooled the religious right into thinking that they would implement their agenda, the conservatives, exemplified by the Republican Party has represented money. That’s the only underlying principle. When it was convenient, they paid lip service to the religious segment of the electorate, but not to the point of actually implementing their agenda. Except for the easy one of banning gay marriage what did the religious right get? And even that was tempered by civil unions.

Family values? Sanctity of marriage? Anti-abortion? Now I know that it’s early in the election cycle but have any of you noticed who the front runners in your party are?

John Kenneth Galbraith summed it up most succinctly when he said: “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”

If you continue to pretend or to delude yourselves as to what the Republican Party is, you will only be setting yourselves up for disappointment. You will continue in your frustration that the people you elect over and over and over again are RINO’s and “not really conservatives.” You will somehow remain convinced that the founding fathers were conservatives. There are no conservative revolutionaries and there never have been any.

I’m not saying that the Republican Party’s representation of money and commerce is somehow wrong or its viewpoint is not valid. No, not at all! It is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint which demands and deserves to be represented.

But if you expect something else you're going to continue to be disappointed.

Y’all are in some serious denial.

Peace!


maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 12:36pm.

Jeff, your grasp of American history is about as shallow as Galbraith's grasp of economics was. The founders were indeed conservatives who stood for limited government, especially at the federal level, and economic freedom.

They stood for the right of individuals to persue their own self-interests within the confines of the law - the very essence of liberty. Your quote by Galbraith shows how little he understood that basic concept.

Maximus


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 1:31pm.

Your comparison of my grasp of American history to Galbraith’s grasp of economics was flattering indeed.

I must say, though, that your characterization of Galbraith’s grasp of economics as shallow is, in my mind, disputed by the facts. His credentials; professor of economics at Harvard, two-time recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, awarded the Order of Canada, former president of the American Economic Association, editor of Fortune magazine, author of 33 books on economics (not to mention the hysterically funny, “The Triumph”) seem adequate for me. Perhaps you prefer Thorstein Veblen.

His quote has nothing at all to do with the concepts of rights of the individual.

However, your linking limited government to conservatism was most amusing! Have you noticed the current government? Oh! Wait! Bush and the government of the last 6 years aren’t conservative! They are all RINO’s!


maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 2:42pm.

It was a purposeful comparison, Jeff. I don't doubt the breadth of his knowledge or yours. It's the basic understanding of human nature and what drives people that he didn't seem to grasp. That's why he thought that socialism could work.

Maximus


Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 1:03pm.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but the above post by Maximus is a classic example of why there is no serious discussion around here.

To dismiss John Kenneth Galbraith's understanding of economics as "shallow" is one of the most asinine statements I've ever seen on this site. The man was an economic advisor to four presidents, he was the past president of the American Economic Association, and he wrote dozens of scholarly books and hundreds of essays regarding economics.

Nonetheless, Maximus disagrees with something Galbraith wrote, so he dismisses Galbraith as "shallow".


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 1:28pm.

John Kenneth Galbraith is a dinosaur. His economic models are best suited for an industrially based economy. As you may have noticed by the rust belt, we are now a service oriented economy. I will allow Max to explain this further since this is his baby.

I only minored in economics in my undergraduate days.

Regardless, arguing economics is more useless than arguing politics.

In word association mnemonics I would use ‘socialism’ to recall his models.

“One of the most influential was "The Affluent Society" (1958), which argued that overproduction of consumer goods was harming the public sector and depriving Americans of such benefits as clean air, clean streets, good schools and support for the arts” . … “He lamented what he believed was an excess accumulation of private wealth at the expense of public needs, and he warned that an unfettered free market system and capitalism without regulation would fail to meet basic social demands. This was echoed in his writings "The Affluent Society."”

I guess we can say that he is not exactly a fan of (my persoanl philosophy of) laissez-faire principles or policies of economics.

As a note: the 2007 Index of Economic Freedom issued by the Heritage Foundation, the seven countries with the most free economies are currently the following: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, United States, New Zealand, United Kingdom and Ireland. ((Hong Kong is ranked number one for 12 consecutive years in the Index which attempts to measure "the absence of government coercion or constraint on the production, distribution, or consumption of goods and services beyond the extent necessary for citizens to protect and maintain liberty itself."))

Milton Friedman (one of my favorites) praised the Hong Kong Laissez-faire (invisible-hand) approach to the economy and credits that policy for the rapid move from poverty to prosperity in the past 50 years. Most of this growth came under British colonial control prior to the 1997 takeover by Communist China.

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maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 2:36pm.

Work is keeping me away. You're doing an excellent job anyway. There's just one thing - "arguing economics is more useless than arguing politics."? I'll let it slide this time, but...

Maximus


JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 1:39pm.

You highlighted, "an unfettered free market system and capitalism without regulation would fail to meet basic social demands..."

You absolutely cannot believe that we have anything approaching an unfettered free market system without regulation do you?

Thus, our regulated, fettered, free market system has achieved the success which you see today. Galbraith was right.

(Hey, at least we ain't arguing fast food.)


Tug13's picture
Submitted by Tug13 on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 8:50am.

Jeff, I thought the fast food comments were interesting.
Some of us aren't (ain't) as smart as you. Smiling

I do enjoy reading your comments.

God Bless
Tug

P.S. When I was a child, I lived on a peanut farm in Richland, Ga.
Do you know where that is? (of course you do, I was kidding) Smiling


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 2:14pm.

Your logic fails the smell test. Your logic is that: because our economy is 'succeeding' to some degree - our government interventions must be helping? What if we are doing well despite the cumbersome interventions? Ever heard of the government cheese program? Did your dad ever get paid to NOT grow something?

Gosh Jeff, how in the world do you know what our economy would be doing without the government interventions?

Tell me why tax cuts increase revenue if government intervention is a 'good thing'?

Tell me why price floors and price ceilings create shortages and surpluses.

Tell me that the government is more efficient than the civilian, capitalist, free market segment. After all, government agencies have more regulations than anyone else could hope to have.

Let's move from macro to micro - if your next ten paychecks, had NO money taken out for state or federal taxes whatsoever, would you personally be more able to invest, buy, or help grow the economy or would you be less able?

As a bonus: Name one government formed monopoly (a regulation that fetters free trade if ever there was one) that operates efficiently or more efficiently than a free-enterprise would (hint: remember that subsidies are part of the ‘input’ prices)

I disagree with your assertion.

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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 3:50pm.

No, my point was that unregulated economies and unfettered capitalism has not been tried in the last almost hundred years, at least since the Robber Baron period and for good reasons. Hey, I’m a New Dealer.

Your assertion that tax cuts increase government revenues is just a Republican talking point. There is no peer reviewed study that shows this. Quite the contrary. From the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities we get this:

“Studies by the Congressional Budget Office, the Joint Committee on Taxation, and the Administration itself show that tax cuts do not come anywhere close to paying for themselves over the long term. CBO and Joint Tax Committee studies find that, if financed by government borrowing, tax cuts are more likely to harm than to help the economy over the long run, and consequently would cost more than conventional estimates indicate, rather than less. Moreover, in its recent “dynamic analysis” of the impact of making the President’s tax cuts permanent, the Treasury Department reported that even under favorable assumptions, extending the tax cuts would have only a small effect on economic output. That small positive economic impact would offset no more than 10 percent of the tax cuts’ cost.”

You can see the whole study here with all the analysis and footnotes.

Price controls only work as a very temporary measure in that they may reduce the unemployment and lost output usually associated with disinflation. Otherwise they have adverse side effects such as destabilization and black markets. Exactly as Galbraith showed in, “Drastic Measure: A History of Wage and Price Controls in the United States (Studies in Economic History and Policy: USA in the Twentieth Century).”

Government is not more efficient that free markets and neither I nor Galbraith have ever claimed different nor has either of us, to my knowledge, ever equated the efficiency of markets versus the actual number of regulations.

Monopolies are not more efficient nor or they more price competitive in the long run. However, in today’s world, monopolies are a trend of unregulated free markets rather than government policies. That is one reason the US has instituted so many anti-trust laws. Except for government regulation, you would have only one computer operating system, one oil company and your local market would have only one news source.

As for not taking out any taxes from my next ten paychecks, give me the money!!!

However, all that being said, I do not agree with his advocacy of the government owning stock in major corporations. I agree that's too socialists.

I cannot believe we are blogging about economics. Worse, I think I started it...


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 5:24pm.

This is one of those reasons that I hate to argue economics. Here is a sample of data that refutes your data:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/wm327.cfm

http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/mankiw_speech_nabe_20030915.html

http://www.freedomworks.org/informed/issues_template.php?issue_id=2685

Also, realize when you quote that "CBO and Joint Tax Committee studies find that, if financed by government borrowing, tax cuts are more likely to harm than to help the economy over the long run, and consequently would cost more than conventional estimates indicate, rather than less" The key words there are "IF FINANCED" and "BY BORROWING" and "LONG RUN".

Regardless, we seem to agree on the other points (for the most part).

I am going to assume for a moment that you remember the calculus or physics when you worked the minimum and maximum curves (quadratic equations) to find optimal points with instantaneous values. If not, perhaps you will recall Microeconomics and finding the maximum profit for a product given input prices and a market equilibrium model.

Either way, please refer to the Laffer Curve ( a hypothetical inverted parabola ) and recall if you are a supply sider, or a demand sider (you are a mean and ugly "demand sider" from what I see thusfar and I am an eclectic Keynesian economic model fan with a flavor of the "supply side" and nice eyes) – thus my 'no solution' I hate to argue economics problem. Anyway, supply side economists inspired the Kemp-Roth Tax Cuts of 1980-81, which to say the least was a huge success in generating investment and, like all good economic policy, a win-win for business growth. It was however a bit too far to the left of the tax continuim in my opinion. (The marginal tax rates were a bit too low.Those rates were moved back to the right on the Laffer Curve by Clinton.)

Supply-side advocates (like me more than you and less than some) like tax cuts because we believe that the governments marginal tax rates are skewed to the right of the curve’s apex; therefore, a decrease in those tax rates (moving it to the left on the curve) will bring an increase in revenue by moving ‘up’ the revenue curve to it’s apex. (Move up - incresing quantity or revenue- the inverted parabola to the center.)

Bear with me here-

The goal in economics is to keep the tax rate (we are talking marginal tax rate) at the center of the Laffer curve; therefore, the argument is whether you think it is to the right or to the left of the center (the apex).

As a firm believer in the Keynesian economic model (helpful intervention here Jeff – but very limited, controlled, and at the macro level), with an eye toward the supply side (yes, reward and trust the rich to invest and own and build and hire and promote), I am a neoclassical economics student. My eclectic approach is very similar to the model we follow in US economics. Clinton had it about right, Reagan was way off, (sorry here but)Carter was way off, Bush is a bit off. (All in my humble opinion of course.)

I think that we are to the right of center on our marginal tax rates but not by a lot – I think Clinton moved us too far to the right of center on the curve.

What say you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

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Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:45am.

I gave up on "economists" after hearing Harry say once that he was looking for a one-handed economist. That way they couldn't advise him: "on the one hand this and that, but on the other hand that and this."
They are like lawyers, and can take either side, defense or prosecution, depending.
And come up with a bunch of stupid theories that are never correct, using math generally to see what "x" is. Or, if "x" is really somewhere on the bell curve, maybe.

JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 6:38pm.

I claim to be a Keynesian too actually. However I agree with Ben Stein on the Laffer Curve:

Ben Stein recently wrote an aptly named "Quick Course in the Economics of Confusion" for The New York Times. He offered to clarify some "breathtaking confusion about supply-side economics". Stein spoke indulgently about "Art Laffer, a likable and intelligent man who, with no substantial backup at all in data that I am aware of, said that if you cut taxes on income, you would stimulate so much economic activity that you would collect as much in tax as you did when rates were higher."

The actual facts, as reported by the Congressional Budget Office, do not back up the claim.

However, I will admit that I am over my head. Again though, having admitted that, you've gotta admit that we have elevated the blog!

And I still really, really like Galbraith's quote: "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." Which I believe is what started all this. It's just funny as (ummm) to me.

Let us agree on this and see if we have common ground: we, all of us, are taxed way too much. The government is the most inefficient spender of money. We can spend our own money better than the government. We don't like how the government spends our money when they tax it. Government is (at least) 40% bigger than it should be. And, finally, Republicans spend more money than Democrats when they are in office, the difference being that Republicans would rather our chidren pick up the tab than paying for it themselves and they are chagrined that it was Clinton who balanced the budget and Bush who broke it into $3 trillion pieces of debt for our children (and counting).

Non-controversial facts!

Gotta go, see ya next week...


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 7:55pm.

You were doing great - and then you basically said that Democrats were fiscally conservatives compared to the Republicans. Yea, right.

Like the Pope is Jewish.

I will give you this much - both parties now spend like drunken sailors on a weekend furlough; however, a substantial portion of the Bush spending is Military and Homeland security related compared to the Democrats Government spending on entitlements (and special interest vote buying programs). Recall that we have had the largest natural disaster in the nation’s history and the largest attack on American soil in our nation's history - those combined with the assembly and establishment of the TSA have been expensive government expenditures. Therefore: Bush's quandary, if you followed my previous blog on economics, is that he HAD to bolster government (Homeland Security and funding the war on terror - the demand side) while bolstering his base (supply side - tax cuts for the upper incomes) simultaneously.

No can do G.I.

And so we come back to the mother's milk of economics - politics.

Anyway - I'll talk with you later. Have a great weekend.

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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 8:12am.

I am concluding that you are as old as I am! You seem to actually remember what the Republican Party was like in the 50’s and 60’s, but Mixer, that was 50 years ago.

Government spending has grown nearly 29% over the last four years.

The Bush administration has spent money twice as fast Clinton. (7.6% vs. 3.4%)

Pork-barrel Republicans in Congress have increased non-defense discretionary spending at a record rate of 36%.

In just 4 years, the Bush administration has increased non-defense discretionary spending by 1/3 more than the Clinton administration did in 8 years.

It’s the Dems who are fiscally responsible (if not conservative) today. Let’s go back to pay as you go and balanced budgets.

Like we had under the Democrats.


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 9:29am.

Government spending has grown nearly 29% over the last four years.

Let’s begin with this: Last week, House Democrats passed a budget blueprint that would wipe out existing tax cuts while mostly ignoring the rising costs of the alternative minimum tax. With an anticipated take of $400 billion over five years, the result would be a bigger tax increase than Bill Clinton's in 1993 -- the one that helped cost Democrats control of Congress the following year. The fun is just starting Jeff.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11239

The Bush administration has spent money twice as fast Clinton. (7.6% vs. 3.4%)

Fact: The President cannot spend money – only congress can; otherwise, we would not be fighting over the funding for our troops in the Iraq War. You already knew that though Jeff. Eye-wink
Here is what we need: a constitutional balanced budget amendment and a permanent line-item veto. Its item one in the contract with America from the 104th congress (Republican controlled).

Here is the rest of what they proposed:Click Here

1. THE FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT: A balanced budget/tax limitation amendment and a legislative line-item veto to restore fiscal responsibility to an out- of-control Congress, requiring them to live under the same budget constraints as families and businesses.
2. THE TAKING BACK OUR STREETS ACT: An anti-crime package including stronger truth-in- sentencing, "good faith" exclusionary rule exemptions, effective death penalty provisions, and cuts in social spending from this summer's "crime" bill to fund prison construction and additional law enforcement to keep people secure in their neighborhoods and kids safe in their schools.
3. THE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT: Discourage illegitimacy and teen pregnancy by prohibiting welfare to minor mothers and denying increased AFDC for additional children while on welfare, cut spending for welfare programs, and enact a tough two-years-and-out provision with work requirements to promote individual responsibility.
4. THE FAMILY REINFORCEMENT ACT: Child support enforcement, tax incentives for adoption, strengthening rights of parents in their children's education, stronger child pornography laws, and an elderly dependent care tax credit to reinforce the central role of families in American society.
5. THE AMERICAN DREAM RESTORATION ACT: A S500 per child tax credit, begin repeal of the marriage tax penalty, and creation of American Dream Savings Accounts to provide middle class tax relief.
6. THE NATIONAL SECURITY RESTORATION ACT: No U.S. troops under U.N. command and restoration of the essential parts of our national security funding to strengthen our national defense and maintain our credibility around the world.
7. THE SENIOR CITIZENS FAIRNESS ACT: Raise the Social Security earnings limit which currently forces seniors out of the work force, repeal the 1993 tax hikes on Social Security benefits and provide tax incentives for private long-term care insurance to let Older Americans keep more of what they have earned over the years.
8. THE JOB CREATION AND WAGE ENHANCEMENT ACT: Small business incentives, capital gains cut and indexation, neutral cost recovery, risk assessment/cost-benefit analysis, strengthening the Regulatory Flexibility Act and unfunded mandate reform to create jobs and raise worker wages.
9. THE COMMON SENSE LEGAL REFORM ACT: "Loser pays" laws, reasonable limits on punitive damages and reform of product liability laws to stem the endless tide of litigation.
10. THE CITIZEN LEGISLATURE ACT: A first-ever vote on term limits to replace career politicians with citizen legislators.
Now, since you are dragging me in to talking politics, know this:
I absolutely am furious over the tax rates and the reckless spending that goes on in Washington D.C..

On a political note: I am reduced to picking the lesser of two evils and that has consistently been the Republicans (under the current two party system).

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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 12:09pm.

I have to cut up a huge pine that fell across my driveway. Nice day for it though!

I am in favor of wiping out the tax cuts as long as we are running these massive deficits. Let’s pay and see if that brings more pressure to reduce the size of government. While I would like not to pay taxes as much as anyone, it seems fundamentally wrong to pass this debt on to succeeding generations. If the Dems suffer for it, then so be it.

Yes, yes, I know what the Constitution says. However, the reality is that the President submits a budget. If you want to get technical about it though, I will concede that it was the Republican Congress which increased spending 29% over the last four years, twice as fast as Clinton. I don’t see how this advances your argument that Republicans are somehow fiscally responsible.

I would absolutely love a balanced budget amendment (with exceptions for an emergency of course) and I would and do support the line-item veto. Bring them on! Given the lead time for a constitutional amendment, I support reinstating Clinton’s pay-as-you-go strategy which led to a balanced budget until the Republicans came in and threw it out so they could proceed with their unrestrained and wildly prolific deficit spending. If a balanced budget amendment and a line-item veto were really part of the modern Republican priorities, they would have been passed during the last six years of single (Republican) party rule. Not only did this not even approach happening, the totally Republican controlled Congress refused to extend the PAYGO plan in 2002 allowing it to die.

Oh, I liked parts of the Contract with America although I didn’t like all of it. I’m hoping Newt gets in the race. I don’t think he can win but he supplies big ideas.

By the way, did you know that the amount of all taxes collected west of the Mississippi now goes to pay the interest on the national debt?


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 2:40pm.

Like price ceilings and price floors - good intentions don't always make good economic sense: Please read over this first-
The Truth About Paygo- Click Here

Now back to a couple of your points:

I am in favor of wiping out the tax cuts as long as we are running these massive deficits.

(Again, I am not. I think the solution is to grow your way out of it – again – I am supply side and you are demand side – I choose creating jobs in the private sector- you chose to create jobs in the public sector.)

Let’s pay and see if that brings more pressure to reduce the size of government. While I would like not to pay taxes as much as anyone, it seems fundamentally wrong to pass this debt on to succeeding generations. If the Dems suffer for it, then so be it.

(You seem to want to credit balancing the budget to a democrat but it was congress that balanced the budget as I recall.)

Yes, yes, I know what the Constitution says. However, the reality is that the President submits a budget. (And then congress changes the heck out of it and sends it back) If you want to get technical about it though, I will concede that it was the Republican Congress which increased spending 29% over the last four years, twice as fast as Clinton. (I am still trying to remember the Katrina, 9/11, airline meltdown, slowing economy that Clinton inherited like Bush has endured but I just can’t.)

I don’t see how this advances your argument that Republicans are somehow fiscally responsible. (As I recall I said I was very displeased with both and, assuming you read what I wrote, that Clinton’s model was about right.)

HOWEVER: I think we need to stop here and see if we both understand how a multi-trillion dollar economy works. WHAT IS DONE TO/FOR THE ECONOMY RIGHT NOW DOESN’T USUALLY IMPACT IT FOR SOME TIME. THE STOCK MARKET IS A GREAT INDICATOR OF HOW INVESTERS SPECULATE WHAT THE ECONOMY WILL DO HOWEVER. In case you have not noticed, we currently have full employment and a record high stock market. Regardless, the biggest problem I have with your model, (other than you seem to think that each President is presiding over HIS economy as opposed to what they inherit and what congress can negotiate), is that you don’t seem to believe that as the economy grows we can produce more revenue and make the “deficit” a smaller portion of the economy. Debt is relative – surely you realize that.

Again Jeff, go back and look at the two basic philosophies of economics: ‘supply’ side and ‘demand’ side. Demand siders build the government and provide government jobs that in turn give people increased/initial income in hopes that it will stimulate production by increasing the money available through the new jobs and their demand for goods and services. Supply side gives the money to the people in hopes that they will create jobs through investment and spending and stimulate the economy through purchases, investment, and increasing the circulation of money by buying more goods and services. Demand side creates jobs that stay forever, are less productive (the Peter Principle), and grow the bureaucracy by feeding in to a middle management production machine. We never stop paying for demand side jobs – even when they drain the economy and are non- productive. Private sector jobs on the other hand are more efficient and can expand and contract quickly to stay useful and increase productivity.

I would absolutely love a balanced budget amendment (with exceptions for an emergency of course) and I would and do support the line-item veto. Bring them on! Given the lead time for a constitutional amendment, I support reinstating ((Here is where you completely lose me))Clinton’s pay-as-you-go strategy (((???))) which led to a balanced budget until the Republicans came in and threw it out so they could proceed with their unrestrained and wildly prolific deficit spending. If a balanced budget amendment and a line-item veto were really part of the modern Republican priorities, they would have been passed during the last six years of single (Republican) party rule. (((Please tell me what you are talking about here))) Not only did this not even approach happening, the totally Republican controlled Congress refused to extend the PAYGO plan in 2002((( The Bush started in 1990))) allowing it to die.

(((PAYGO was actually invented by Richard Darman, George H.W. Bush's budget director, as part of the 1990 budget deal that raised taxes in hopes of reining in the deficit)))

Everyone pretty much agrees it was a horrible plan: http://www.seniorhealthdecisions.net/Government/News/default.aspx?doc_id=101917

Oh, I liked parts of the Contract with America although I didn’t like all of it. (((Do you have a better congressional offering to present from the democrats?))) I’m hoping Newt gets in the race. I don’t think he can win but he supplies big ideas.((( Yes, he does indeed.)))

By the way, did you know that the amount of all taxes collected west of the Mississippi now goes to pay the interest on the national debt? (((Did you know that you have to work until May 4, 2007 before you are making the money that you and your family will have in real dollars after taxes??)))

In a nutshell Jeff, in addition to the economic differences, we have to look at the other party positions that effect/affect our lives- Gay Marriage, Civil Unions, The War on Terrorism, Equal Rights, Abortion, Privacy Rights, Protecting the Weak, Immigration, and more. As I stated before, for me it is a clear choice. I am a Republican because the third party system is not viable at this juncture and I will not allow a Democrat to have my vote by default like the Ross Perot fiasco - look what that got us!

Aren’t you proud I let you just talk about Clinton and Bush and never went back to the late 70’s?

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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 3:43pm.

With a non-controversial ending though...

You were right about the tree. I made a big deal of how hard it was to cut up then made the kids haul it off.

First, I heatedly dispute your statement: “I choose creating jobs in the private sector- you chose to create jobs in the public sector.” Please rest assured that is not my position.

It was the pay-as-you-go legislation that Alan Greenspan and the director of the Congressional Budget Office both credited as the major reasons for the balancing of the budget. The PAYGO restrictions were established in the Budget Enforcement Act of 1990 (BEA), passed with Democrats in charge of Congress and President George H.W. Bush in the White House and extended in 1993 under a Democratic Congress and President Clinton and again in 1997 under a Republican-controlled Congress and Clinton.

The Democrats are trying to re-institute the plan and the Republicans are determined to stop it. I still like it. Go figure.

I found this in an editorial in The Hill by Lincoln Chafee and Russ Feingold:

“Congress needs an incentive to keep spending under control, and we have just the answer. It is a pay-as-you-go, or “PAYGO,” budget rule that offers a simple solution: If members of Congress want new tax cuts or new entitlement spending, they have to find a way to pay for them first. In 2000, the federal government actually had a budget surplus of $236 billion. Just five years later, the budget figures are staggering, dangerous and inescapable. The overall federal debt is $7.7 trillion. In 2004, the federal deficit was $412 billion. The American people deserve better. Unfortunately, this year, it appears that they are in for more of the same. PAYGO expired in 2002. It is no coincidence that in that same year, the budget plunged back into the red.”

(I selected Chafee and Feingold because I just know they’ve got to be your favorites!)

You responded to my statement that the President submits a budget with, “And then congress changes the heck out of it and sends it back.” But, I have seen statistics somewhere claiming that Congress has changed less than 1% of Bush’s budget and in any event it has been the Republican Congress. I am reclaiming the point!

FYI: I have noticed the stock market. Sweet!

Despite economics, I am in total agreement with you assertion “in addition to the economic differences, we have to look at the other party positions…” Elective wars, disdain for Habeus Corpus, sacrificing rights through the Patriot Act, extraordinary rendition and support for torture are deal breakers for me. I’ll still vote Democratic. Nevertheless, I sure hope we don’t nominate Hillary. She cannot win.


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 3:54pm.

You picked Chafee and Feingold because Marx is dead.

Demand Side Economics, says that if taxes are to be cut, they should go to those who earn the least amount of money. The reason is that low-income workers spend virtually all of their incomes.

Tell me this: When is the last time a down and out poor guy created a job for 20 people to support their families?

What would you do with millions more if you were already wealthy?

Who creates private sector jobs? Where do they get the money?

Tell me you read this:

Promising to bring new ideas and a fresh commitment to fiscal discipline, House Democrats launched their new majority by embracing Pay As You Go budgeting -- one of the worst fiscal management tools Republicans ever invented. "Paygo" was first concocted by Richard Darman, George H.W. Bush's budget director, as part of the 1990 budget deal that raised taxes in hopes of reining in the deficit. That version, just like the new House rule, mandated that any change in taxes or entitlements resulting in revenue losses be offset with higher taxes or "cuts" in other entitlement spending.

With such a sensible sounding name, who could be against paygo? Recent history has seen countless efforts to reform the budget process, typically pernicious changes with deceptively reassuring titles. The most infamous was Lyndon Johnson's "Unified Budget" (who could support an un-unified budget?) -- which allowed appropriators to get their hands on payroll tax surpluses, dramatically expanding government spending. Later, the serious-sounding Impoundment Control Act of 1974 allowed a Democratic Congress to strip the executive branch of its ability to rescind or defer spending authority from annual appropriations legislation. Today, President Bush has little choice but to veto an entire spending bill if he opposes even a single earmark, a highly confrontational tactic he has chosen not to employ.

There are only two examples during my 18 years in Washington where the Congress actually reduced domestic discretionary spending from the previous year. The first was the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Balanced Budget Act of 1985 (GRH), which legislated hard deficit reduction targets and automatic spending sequesters to enforce them. GRH was so successful that Congress amended it in 1987, easing the deficit targets to avoid additional spending reductions. But GRH continued to provide significant fiscal discipline until it was emasculated in 1990.

Domestic discretionary spending fell again with Republican control of Congress in the mid-1990s. We cut spending this time around by disciplining appropriators. It was a clear commitment to fiscal restraint that allowed the GOP leadership, led by the House, to keep spending under the targets established by the Budget Resolution for three consecutive years, FY 1996-1998. We cut outdated domestic programs, sought efficiencies and forced appropriators to make tough choices between competing priorities.

Over time, that commitment to spending discipline was replaced by a commitment to get re-elected at any cost -- and new spending records were set. The Democrats now in charge have promised, to quote Nancy Pelosi, "no new deficit spending, no new bridges to nowhere." But deficit spending is caused by too much spending -- and under the House Democrats' paygo rule, entitlement spending, the lion's share of the federal budget, will grow unabated, as will the massive unfunded liabilities of Medicare and Social Security (currently approaching $70 trillion), which are not acknowledged under existing budgeting practices. Meanwhile, there are no enforceable caps on domestic discretionary spending -- and thus earmarks, even if restrained as promised, will do next to nothing to promote deficit reduction.

Social Security reforms that turn empty promises into personally owned accounts -- real assets for retirement -- cannot be funded under paygo without massive tax increases or deep reductions in promised benefits. In effect, paygo makes serious entitlement reform politically impossible without a word of debate. Meanwhile, as surplus payroll tax dollars currently diverted into other spending programs continue to disappear, the pressure on the deficit will become insurmountable.

While paygo might restrain Democrat promises to further expand prescription drug benefits under Medicare Part D, its most certain outcome will be massive tax increases. Unlike "mandatory" spending that grows on autopilot, the various Bush tax cuts are set to expire. Democrats, already inclined to oppose lower taxes, will be hard-pressed to find other new tax revenue, or spending offsets from cherished entitlements, that would allow for making the tax provisions permanent.

Two important factors created the budget surpluses of the late 1990s: spending restraint and robust economic growth. Bill Clinton's enormous tax increase generated less than half of the promised new revenue by 1996, but cuts in the capital gains tax and death tax helped make up the difference. More importantly, technological innovation and higher economic growth generated new revenues. These new dollars, coupled with spending discipline, balanced the budget and paid down a substantial portion of the debt.

Pay As You Go has a different history. At Mr. Darman's urging, George H.W. Bush broke his famous 1988 campaign promise and signed on to a deficit reduction package that increased taxes and instituted paygo. The economy tanked, the deficit ballooned and the GOP suffered an electoral rout in 1992. Maybe there's a history lesson in there somewhere.

Mr. Armey, House majority leader from 1995 to 2002, is chairman of FreedomWorks.

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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 5:40pm.

He rails: “But deficit spending is caused by too much spending -- and under the House Democrats' paygo rule, entitlement spending, the lion's share of the federal budget, will grow unabated, as will the massive unfunded liabilities of Medicare and Social Security (currently approaching $70 trillion), which are not acknowledged under existing budgeting practices. Meanwhile, there are no enforceable caps on domestic discretionary spending -- and thus earmarks, even if restrained as promised, will do next to nothing to promote deficit reduction.”

However he cleverly omits that the size of the federal deficit has almost doubled under the Republicans and Bush in the last six years and that the size of the government has grown by almost 30%. I would too if I were him but lets not pretend that he is proposing any alternate plan at all and neither have the Republicans.

He also says: “Social Security reforms that turn empty promises into personally owned accounts -- real assets for retirement -- cannot be funded under paygo without massive tax increases or deep reductions in promised benefits.” I agree. What he fails to point out is that this is true under any foreseeable set of circumstances and is not a result of paygo. And incidentally, I would support privatizing as much of the Social Security program as possible. If it were up to me, I’d make it optional.

Republicans don’t like paygo because it interferes with their tax cuts for the rich if they have to actually pay for the legislation they approve. It’s that simple.

As for Armey’s partisan position, which he is taking precisely because he does not want to have to pay for tax cuts, I’ll stick with Alan Greenspan who testified before the Senate Budget Committee April 25, 2005, declaring, "The federal budget deficit is on an unsustainable path. Reinstating a structure like the one provided by the [1990] Budget Enforcement Act would signal a renewed commitment to fiscal restraint and help restore discipline to the annual budgeting process. One of the real problems we had was allowing PAYGO to lapse in September 2002, and were we to still be under a PAYGO regime, which I thought worked very well, I think we'd have fewer problems now."


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:00pm.

Go cut your tree. It's absolutely not a topic we can blog about- it's wayyyyyyy to complicated.

Should I assume that you do know that Dick Armey was a former economics professor (PhD) at North Texas State University or not?

By the way, Alan Greenspan is a Republican - now why in the world would your economic hero be Republican - like me? He was also the architect of the Clinton economic policy that I have described as 'about right'.

As for Greenspan- your fellow Democrats hated him in the end.

Democrats said the accusation by Sen. Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) reflected a real frustration in the minority party with Greenspan. Even before Reid's attack, Democrats say, they have been changing their view of Greenspan from one of an above-politics wise man to the Republican partisan he had been in the 1960s and '70s.

Click Here

Greenspan was a master in handling not only the economy but also the treacherous shoals of politics. He won nominations for the Fed job from four presidents _ three Republicans and one Democrat. The occasional critics said he was too political.

Upset over Greenspan's support of President George W. Bush's tax cuts, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, a Democrat, said Greenspan was "one of the biggest political hacks we have in Washington."

Click Here

It seems that something happened beginning in 2001 that wasn't ever considered in the fiscal planning - oh, I remember, we spent billions and billions on a war, and on natural disasters. There are short term solutions and stimulus (Demand Side) and long term (Supply Side)but like everything else now Jeff, we want to see results and we want the right NOW! As you may know from your investing model- short term is NOT the way to look to investing/economics if you want it (your investments) to be big, strong and stable.

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Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:44pm.

I've never been able to understand how Greenspan gets credit for our "economy," when we owe 8 trillion by the government (not counting the 8 trillion plus to the good that Clinton generated), and the "average" working citizen owes $35,000 on credit cards, and has spent nearly all the equity they did have in their home, or never have had any equity.
Lord only knows how much our corporations owe and how much inflated their stock prices are right now.
When it bursts we are 1929-1939 again. With beggars in the streets and country roads, and jumpers from the buildings and bridges!

Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:55pm.

Okay - let's pretend that the deficit is 30%, no, make it 40% of the GNP (it's not - it's less).

What percentage of you household income is in bills? (Mortgage, cable bill, Internet, Phone, Electric, Taxes, Gas, Insurance, credit cards, car payments, etc. etc.?)

Do you have 70% of your gross pay left over after paying all of your debt and expenses?

I don't- my taxes alone are more than that percentage.

Plus- we have 'pay raises' every time the GNP grows...cool huh?Cool

I think the economy will survive - call me an optimist.

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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:34pm.

I knew Greenspan was a Republican but like me he’s non-partisan! Hahahaha. (That’s at least as funny as Reid calling somebody a political hack.)

If you’ve never seen V for Vendetta, watch it tonight on HBO. Great movie. In fact, that’s where I got the slogan: People should not be afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of the people.

And don’t say its anti-Bush. It was made long before Bush. It’s anti Margaret Thatcher!

I’m taking the rest of the night off. Coals are ready, steaks are spiced and the wine is chilled. Have a great night and enjoy the movie.


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:47pm.

I enjoyed it. You are a neat guy. I hope I can one day get you on the RIGHT path.

Enjoy the steaks and grill time- I love to grill out.

I was planning on a movie tonight but I wasn't thinking about V- I heard it has a liberal SLANT

Night night Jeffrey. Watch "The Departed" when you get the chance.

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JeffC's picture
Submitted by JeffC on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:34pm.

posted twice


Denise Conner's picture
Submitted by Denise Conner on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 12:24pm.

Are there any Democratic candidates for a balanced budget amendment and the line-item veto? Are these in the Democratic Platform? (Is that the right word any more?)

Are you for eliminating any federal departments, thereby returning responsibility to the states?

What federal spending would you eliminate? What federal spending does any Democratic candidate propose?

By "balanced" budget I don't mean keeping increased spending by increasing taxation! Smiling

I could try to find these answers myself, but I thought I'd save some time by asking you. Laughing out loud


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 4:21pm.

But you would have opposition from Democrats because eliminating these departments would mean eliminating government jobs.

We should do what the private sector does and retrain them and eliminate the waste after 'downsizing'.

((i.e., Initiate the National Sales Tax/Fair Tax, eliminate 90% of the IRS, and retrain them (the collection agents) to go after the illegals - collect their unpaid fair share of past taxes and deport them. Retrain the remainder of the good employees (accountant types)to help examine other government programs to find ways to increase efficiency and give severance to the rest.))

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pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:50pm.

I see you were listening to the Herman Cain show today. Good man! Smiling

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Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:20pm.

I like Herman Cain, I would love to hear his show. When and where can I hear it? Should I assume he said something about the Fair Tax today? I know he is a proponent.

Between yard work and JeffC driving me nuts with 'economics' I have been a bit out of the loop today. What a waste of a good Saturday, huh?

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Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:45pm.

Cain announced recently that he is (his quote) "cancer free" which really surprised me.

Two years ago he had stage IV cancer in his colon and liver. Stage IV is the nastiest...that's when little "seed pods" of cancer cells burst and travel throughout your body to eat other organs.

They used to call Stage IV cancers "inoperable cancers". The mortality rate is 96% (for you folks who were home-schooled, that means only 4 out of 100 survive).

Cain had massive surgeries done, they cut out entire portions of his intestines and his liver. But it appears he's beaten the odds against him.

Good thing he could afford all that medical care!


pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 8:46pm.

(for you folks who were home-schooled, that means only 4 out of 100 survive)
Wow...a 2 second Google search proves Ms. Fredi Phelps-Banmati is lying again.

The average SAT scores of home-schooled students were 568 Verbal and 532 Math, above the national averages of 505 Verbal and 514 Math.

For Rice Queens educated in socialist indoctrination camps, that means home schoolers scored 18 points higher on the SAT math section than government educated kids.

There again is that wonderful rabid liberal illogic -- make a smear without any FACTS or LOGIC to back it up.

Sheesh...can't you even go one post without slandering someone or a group?

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Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 8:07pm.

I haven't heard that before bas. You are right about stage IV Cancer. Amazing.

I'm tired - JeffC wore me down. you liberals are persistant boogers.

Are in in NYC?

By the way, do you think he got his treatment in Cuba? Eye-wink

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pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:30pm.

Oh you weren't listening? I didn't hear much -- just a few minutes while out on an errand but I just assumed you were since a caller on there today said exactly what you are proposing -- get rid of 90% of the IRS and take that 10% to go after "undocumented workers" since they are so good at tracking down anybody that owes the Imperial Federal Government even just $1000. Actually that makes a lot of sense. Smiling

When and where can I hear it?
On the great AM 750WSB from 12-2pm. (Also home to Boortz, Hannity, and Savage!) If you got a broadband connection you can also listen live on the net at
WSBRadio.com.

And yes, Mr. Cain is a big supporter of the FairTax. In fact, that's one of the reasons I really supported him when he ran for Senate a year or two ago.

And thanks for your posts on economics...busy myself so I'm trying to read them and learn. I always love learning from someone else. Keep up the good work, buddy! Smiling

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Denise Conner's picture
Submitted by Denise Conner on Sun, 05/20/2007 - 3:20am.

Here's his website.

http://www.hermancain.com/

There's a radio archives, as well as other info.


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 8:02pm.

Maybe tomorrow someone will adopt my "Earn Amnesty Plan".

Jeff and I were all over the place in our discussions. You may not learn much - sorry.

I too am a Cain supporter and voted for him as well. I would be happy to work on his campaign should he chose to run again.

By the way, I’m jealous that you and Denise are an ‘item’. You’re a lucky boy!

PS- I have used Mozilla Firefox and Mozilla Thunderbird for a couple years now.

Thanks again-

Mixer

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Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:21pm.

Your posts are one-half off the page on the right-hand side?

Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:23pm.

That's because I am a 'right-winger'. What side did you think they would be on? I am after all a member of the 'Vast Right Wing Conspiracy".

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Denise Conner's picture
Submitted by Denise Conner on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 5:09pm.

"eliminate 90% of the IRS" -- I was worried there -- thought it should be 100% reduction but, at least, you have a plan for the 10% left.

"fair share" -- How'd that slip in?! Smiling


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 5:43pm.

Fast track?

Three years in Iraq serving the country you say you want to become 'legal' in (the U.S.A.).

Construction and English classes - 1st year,
Military service and second year of English- second year,
Military service, basic skills, GED training, and third year English for year three.

Paid as an E-1, E-2 and E-3 in years one two and three respectively.

State taxes going to the state you want to settle in.

Federal taxes paid at the same rate as American Citizen G.I.s.

Honorable discharge = Citizenship for you, spouse, biological children.

Any other discharge = deportation.

Let's do it.

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Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:35pm.

We have about 200,000 Iraqi mercenaries (we pay them and train them and feed them and uniform them) and an additional 130,000 mercenaries that we pay Halliburton to hire and send to Iraq at a time.
Now you want us to have a South American Army, Muslims too, I assume.
England tried that with us with Germans. It doesn't work.

pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:02pm.

Good to know you have such a high opinion of our brave troops, $. Sad

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Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:07pm.

You are really thick, aren't you?
The 200,000 are the Iraqi troops we thought would kill their fellow Muslims for us. They also have about that many so-called "cops." We pay for it all.
We have 140,000 of our own troop there, not mercenaries yet, but on the way with the huge bonuses they are giving them so that their families won't starve and their kids have no chance for a decent education. Too long in Iraq.

pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:22pm.

You are really thick, aren't you?
yez dolller im rally thik,,,,,didnt ya no that? i got brane problemz two. i jest soo dumb i kent knot undarsand yor logikal ponts bout hallibroton and irak. i do no dat bush lyed and kids dyed! channy is doktor eval to!!!11!!1 bush & chaanny ned 2 b empeechd!!1!!!1


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:55pm.

Why did I fall for this Subject Title? Why did I click it? I can't believe I was so stupid that I even completed reading this crap. AAAARRRRRRGGGHHHH! Shocked

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:02pm.

I see you are suggesting the purchase of sex toys on your "rest of the story."
How much stock do you own?

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 7:05pm.

Hmmmm.... Uhhhh.... Gee! Well????

Dollar. What the hell are you talking about or do I really want to know? I gotta ask. I just can't resist.

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 3:36pm.

I have tried to read all this stuff about wanting lower taxes for you and more for people earning less than me. It erupts my dander to know that there are people who think that they deserve more, which is ok, but they want it from those who already don't have enough!
Bush has already given huge tax decreases to people living fine now and taken it away from those making much less. What that didn't cover had to be borrowed from Japan and other people who don't give a rat for us except our money and resources.

pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 6:55pm.

It erupts my dander to know that there are people who think that they deserve more
Who are you talking about dollar? Are you talking about "fat cats"? If so, what's wrong with wanting to keep what is YOURS? Theft is theft -- it doesn't matter if it's a hooded bank robber or the tax man working for the Imperial Federal Government. Analogy: if I don't have a car, do you mind if I just take yours? Eye-wink

Bush has already given huge tax decreases to people living fine now and taken it away from those making much less.
Sigh. I can tell you get your news from PBS and NPR (and the like). A tax cut DOES NOT take any money away from anybody else. A tax cut simply means some people pay less in taxes. Bush didn't stick his hands in the poor's pockets and take money away from them as you make it sound!

Please, read and research before you just blurt out stuff.

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Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 3:44pm.

When was the last time a 'poor needy guy' created a good paying job for someone so they could support their family?

Who creates jobs in the 'private sector'?

Being anti "big-business" is saying that those who hire and support people is who you oppose. Keep hammering them and they will invest overseas.

Class warfare was made for a simpleton like you for the political gains of the Democrats and the expense of the national economy. You swallowed the bull hook, line and sinker.

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Denise Conner's picture
Submitted by Denise Conner on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 5:01pm.

"When was the last time a 'poor needy guy' created a good paying job for someone so they could support their family?"

Doesn't it take 20-30 welfare agency employees (just like $, nothing to back this up) for every 1 welfare recipient? Laughing out loud

Govt. agency employees multiply like rabbits, but you can't ever find one when you do actually need one, and most do NOT know what it means to work hard. Gotta get out of there by 5 till 5:00 & spend 30 minutes getting to leave!

"Who creates jobs in the 'private sector'?" -- President Clinton -- That's why the economy is so bad off since he's been out of office and why we need to get him back in, with Hillary as a bonus. Laughing out loud


hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 3:52pm.

is that scab bleeding yet?

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 4:10pm.

I was hoping you wouldn't notice. You got me - you got the tater - picked scab and all.

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hutch866's picture
Submitted by hutch866 on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 4:20pm.

I yam what I yam...Popeye


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 10:48am.

The President can Veto any bill he doesn't like. He proved that recently. He is simply not taking in enough income for what he signs to spend! Even the war is a side item out of the budget!
The problem is not the "lesser of two evils" it is agreeing with everything said and done by one side only.

Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 3:33pm.

Dearest Dollar,

If the President does not sign an approved budget, the budget dies and no money is spent. None. Nada. Zilch. Not some of the stuff and none of the rest - none of it. So, as you see, sometimes a President signs what he think is the best budget he can get. I assume you think President GW Bush is the only President to ever sign spending bills that we do not have the funds to cover. That assumption would be very, very wrong.

Thank you.

Mixer

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maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 1:26pm.

Decades of writing, advising, studying keynesian economics, but never understanding what drives people in their economic persuits, and never understanding how that drive raises our standard of living - thus, shallow.

Maximus

"Many reformers - Galbraith is not alone - have as their basic objection to a free market that it frustrates them in achieving their reforms, because it enables people to have what they want, not what the reformers want. Hence every reformer has a strong tendency to be adverse to a free market." Milton Friedman


Paul Perkins's picture
Submitted by Paul Perkins on Sun, 05/20/2007 - 1:30pm.

He was shallow in his theory. For classic Keynesian economics to work, you must have an ever growing stimulus by government.

Most conservatives start with the writings of Ludwig von Mises an Austrian economist and writer who understood globalization of the world economy before it was a common term.

For a simpler example from American history, one can look to William Bradford’s journal. In the first few years of the Plymouth Colony, a commune (Communistic) model was used. All shared food from community gardens. According to Bradford:

In 1620 Plymouth Plantation was founded with a system of communal property rights. Food and supplies were held in common and then distributed based on “equality” and “need” as determined by Plantation officials. People received the same rations whether or not they contributed to producing the food, and residents were forbidden from producing their own food. Governor William Bradford, in his 1647 history, Of Plymouth Plantation, wrote that this system “was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort.” The problem was that “young men, that were most able and fit for labour, did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men’s wives and children without any recompense.” Because of the poor incentives, little food was produced.

Faced with potential starvation in the spring of 1623, the colony decided to implement a new economic system. Every family was assigned a private parcel of land. They could then keep all they grew for themselves, but now they alone were responsible for feeding themselves. While not a complete private property system, the move away from communal ownership had dramatic results.

This change, Bradford wrote, “had very good success, for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been.” Giving people economic incentives changed their behavior. Once the new system of property rights was in place, “the women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn; which before would allege weakness and inability.”

Once the Pilgrims in the Plymouth Plantation abandoned their communal economic system and adopted one with greater individual property rights, they never again faced the starvation and food shortages of the first three years. It was only after allowing greater property rights that they could feast without worrying that famine was just around the corner.

Human nature at work. We like to keep a good portion of what we earn!


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 12:48pm.

Yes Max, I think you may be right about Jefferson, Washington, and others who owned and bred slaves personally.
Interference by the federal government was a pain for them, as to slavery.
Economic freedom came pretty easy with free labor, however.
All of the Jeffersons gathered a few years ago just to see how many there were who would admit it. I'm not sure of the exact number who showed up, but I think a few hundred.
Galbraith was a democrat and trusted people more than business or government.
You should be a conservative if you don't trust or care about others.
What you have to know about people like Jefferson and Washington is that the Federalist papers were many people's ideas, and certainly were a compromise for the elite.

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 11:06am.

The so-called conservatives running for President bring to mind the word hypocrite.
You said it well without confusing the issue with too many details as I often do.

Basmati's picture
Submitted by Basmati on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 10:36am.

I have to admit, Jeff, that when I read the first post in this blog, I clapped my hands in glee. I absolutely support Republican efforts to institute draconian “immigration reform”, though for purely partisan reasons. Every time a Republican thunders about “immigration reform”, another Hispanic voter registers as a Democrat.

Republicans, specifically conservative Republicans, have always needed someone to demonize in order to push their wedge issues through. In the past, they’ve used Jews, African Americans, and gays. They used homosexuals masterfully in the 2004 election to return Bush for a second term. The problem, in my opinion, is that there just weren’t enough homos to go around, and they can be somewhat difficult to spot (particularly the “closeted” ones). So the Republican brain trust came up with the idea to bash Hispanics in the 2006 election cycle. Hispanics seemed be an ideal choice: they were easily identifiable, they had their own culture and most importantly they had their own language….a piece of cake to stir up latent Republican xenophobia. They were “different”. They were “not like us”.

The results, of course, were disasterous. One of the few good things about George W. Bush is he appears to be very supportive of attempts to include Hispanics in the Republican party. Perhaps it was the fact that he once governed a state with a substantial Hispanic population that tempered his outlook. His outreach was paying substantial dividends, too, as more Hispanics voted for a Republican than ever before in 2004.

Those days are gone.

There still remain a number of Hispanic conservatives in America, but as evidenced by the 2006 mid-term elections they have deserted the Republican party in droves. The Repubs have essentially gone on record as saying they don’t want no steenking Spanish speakers in their party. Given the fragile, disintegrating coalition between social and fiscal conservatives, this is nothing short of Republicans cutting off their collective noses to spite their faces!


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:42pm.

We are in agreement. Perhaps once the bridge is built we can blow it? Whoops..... I can't say that! I'm not a member of the Left.

________

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CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 7:30pm.

Isackson is to the Republican Party the same as Zell Miller is to the Democrat Party. Isakson is no more than a useless RINO Hack. Wish that position was held by Herman Cain.

Robert... Washington really does suck doesn't it? And so does their Amnesty Bill.

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


RetiredArmyMAJ's picture
Submitted by RetiredArmyMAJ on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:21pm.

I urge you NOT to support the draft legislation announced today!

Secure the borders first, then look at a guest worker program. This bill rewards law breakers.

The last Amnesty was supposed to stop illegal immigration. It did not and this one will not either.

No law is better than a bad law! Enforce the laws on the books NOW.
Sincerely,

________________________________________________________________
Fighting for truth, justice and the American way, while ignoring the ignorant!


Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:39pm.

I really don't think they care what you or any of us think. The Basmati types are slowy winning.

I do agree that most of the problems we're facing in this country these days could be solved by "Enforcing the laws on the books NOW".

We the voters are no longer relevant anymore....... Sad

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

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Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 7:33pm.

If Herman Cain runs again, me and you will campaign for him. He's great!


pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 10:20pm.

Count me in too! Smiling I had the honor of meeting him once. He is a brilliant, insightful, articulate (whoops! I hope I don't get Klanpoints for that!!!! Smiling ) man and one I'd support wholeheartedly. He's the only candidate I've ever actually voted for -- not just against the candidate's opponent.

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Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 7:40pm.

I can't think of another person on the scene right now that I would invest my time doing campaign grunt work for. I've wasted enough of my valuable time over the years on worthless hack pols like Wastemoreland, Seabaugh, and Isakson.

I'd chew glass to get Herman in there.

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 7:55pm.

...and I'll give away signs.... then we'll go eat and hand out flyers and bumper stickers. I'll bet we can get GaConservative and Mixer, Maximus, and Denise to join us! Maximus is all about economics and Mr. Cain is a great Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, invisible hand, economist.


maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:06pm.

How did you know economics was my favorite subject? I've listened to Herman several times and thought he was great. I didn't even know he had run for office before.

Maximus


Denise Conner's picture
Submitted by Denise Conner on Fri, 05/18/2007 - 6:15am.

Here's his website.

You can hear him each Saturday from noon – 2 p.m. on WSB 750 AM. Herman's website has a radio archive.

I met him once; he seems like a welcome alternative to typical politicians. Has anyone read his book They Think You're Stupid?


Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 8:44pm.

Iraq Vs. Vietnam

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pentapenguin's picture
Submitted by pentapenguin on Sat, 05/19/2007 - 8:51pm.

I'll answer for $ since I know what he will say....

but...but..haliburton doctord those there graphs! bush & cheny are still evil. they send our troops into nothing ness just like a blank hole. thats what irak is -- a blak whole in the galaxy of foreign relations. like a blac hole we cant never escape gravity and hallibruton has pulled us into a unwinnable war where millions of dollars go to bush's friends and are never seen again.

Smiling

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Mixer's picture
Submitted by Mixer on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:26pm.

Enigma knows everything. It's scary but in an odd way, it's cool.

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Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:13pm.

If only...... Sad

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


Submitted by bladderq on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 7:52pm.

Now did you do this grunt work for the 1st or 2nd Westmoron run? The 1st one I said I had more in common w/ a black Repub from Columbus than a white guy from Sharpsburg. You thought dif?
I saw something out of the corner of my eye about Sonny being VP material....kinda irrrrelaent since the Elephant Party can't win in the next election having to pull their Iraq mess thru. a swamp.
I've actually thought about running a People's Camp. for Senate.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 8:10pm.

For clarifications sake let me just say that I NEVER supported or voted for Wastemoreland for Congress. I was on to that clown long before he vacated his state house seat. I voted for him once... when he first ran for his GA House seat. I've screwed up lots of times in life "once".

The black Repub from Columbus whose name is Dylan Glynn was the one of the last campaigns that I threw my self into. Must you bring up the hurts of my life? You could have run over my dog and it wouldn't have had the effect Westmoreland's undeserving victory had on me on that sad election night.

Did that answer your question?

I've actually thought about running a People's Camp. for Senate.

You can go to work for Vernon Jones in his bid to lose to Saxby this next go around.

________

"That man was Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard".

CLICK HERE FOR THE REST OF THE STORY


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