Some ideas on why all the illegal immigrants from Mexico

National Geographic did a piece on the wall we are building between us and Mexico. It mentioned that we didn't have a problem until NAFTA. I remembered how good old Ross Perue was so dead against it and how he kept saying "if NAFTA is made law, all you will hear is a giant sucking sound from the border as American jobs go overseas". He was right, but I had never thought it caused anything but prosperity on the other side. I did a closer look and here are some things I found on the subject that are very thought provoking. This is a very good read. http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_bp147
this is another good one too http://www.epinet.org/newsroom/realeases/03/11/031117nafta-ADV.pdf

bottom line, only investors gained and the poorest of the poor in Mexico were displaced because we dumped all our surplus corn on their market. Many American jobs were and are lost and our children will find it even harder to find jobs. It is plain that if we don't quit letting big buss run this country we are not going to have a future for our kids. We will have let the very riches take those from them. NAFTA was not a boon on either side of the border for the common man.

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Submitted by ptcjenn on Mon, 04/30/2007 - 8:07pm.

this article

If you read on page 2, the bit about NAFTA and the Farm Bill's effect on Mexico is really interesting, and I think relevant to this post.

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Tue, 05/01/2007 - 12:02pm.

It’s not a bad article considering he’s from Berkeley but it doesn’t say a whole lot; Americans eat a lot of cheap, high calorie food, and are a bunch of fat pigs. I’m shocked to hear that news! He is, however, correct in pointing out some of the problems with the farm bill. The biggest problem, which he minimizes, is that it’s a drain on our own economy, not Mexico’s. The Mexicans get cheap corn courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer. Their farmers are then free to grow something else or produce something totally unrelated that is more valuable to their consumers and ours.

To say that 2 million Mexican farm workers have lost their jobs due to cheap corn is a bit exaggerated, I believe. That would be 2% of the entire population. But even if that were true it would only highlight the gross inefficiency in their economy.

That gross inefficiency is why they are clamoring to get into America.

Maximus


Submitted by pukenputter on Fri, 05/04/2007 - 9:22am.

got in high gear about 2 years after it was put in place. I don't think National Geographic or the other web sites have any reason to lie. The Ford assembly closed by the airport this year. Jobs ARE going overseas and we are no better off. I don't know where you got the figure of &17 plus an hour for non management, maybe that is national, averaging in NY. and Ca. but it is not local. Ask someone at Home Depot, Lowes, or any of the cell phone companies, grocery stores, airline new hires or ANYWHERE around here and you will hear $8.00 That is $1280.00 a month. I don't know who can live off that. And these are jobs that can't be moved overseas! If you call customer service for a lot of companies, you wind up giving free English lessons to someone in India! The jobs are going away, not coming in because of NAFTA and so are the peasants of Mexico.

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Fri, 05/04/2007 - 11:05am.

I got the numbers right from the bureau of labor statistics – www.bls.gov.

The Ford plant closed because they have not been able to compete with more efficient manufacturers, and it isn’t too difficult to be more efficient. Companies that pay workers NOT to work and that have retirement healthcare benefits of over $1000 per vehicle produced (GM, I’m not sure about Ford) are not going to last long in any type of competitive market. I, for one, will not pay for it. And that brings us to the real problem – those pesky consumers that want the most for their money.

It sucks being the one involuntarily laid off, but the reallocation of resources (labor and energy) has to happen to keep the economy healthy. An average of about 4.3 million people leaves their job for one reason or another every month, but 4.5 million find a job. It’s a necessary dynamic and we are better off because of it.

Maximus

“Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.” Milton Friedman


Submitted by pukenputter on Fri, 05/04/2007 - 3:18pm.

I looked at that site, but I think it is flawed in many ways. It also averages in the management's wages with the workers. There is no breakout of workers. Other things like it has a forest ranger making 27.40 an hour and a chemist making 28.70 an hour. I doubt that anyone out in the woods counting tress and squirrels would make just a dollar and hour less than someone who has gone to college and majored in chemistry. Then look at the school bus drivers, that is REALLY flawed. I talked to my child's a year or two ago and she was making 650.00 a month. They also only work 9 months and only a couple of hours in the morning and a couple in the afternoon. To get the annual salary they show would never work. To get the 18000.00 a year they would have to work 43 hrs a week year round!

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Sun, 04/29/2007 - 10:53pm.

The problem with NAFTA is that it hasn’t resulted in even more free trade than it has. Mexico, Canada, and the U.S. have all played politics with it, making claims about “dumping” lumber, cement, produce, etc. in order to protect friends in certain industries, or to appease the idiots who listen to those like Lou Dobbs.

The reason Ross Perot didn’t like the idea is because it cut into the business going through his “free trade zone” at his Alliance airport in Fort Worth. His son controls it now.

The Economic Policy Institute is a socialist organization. Their whole purpose is to twist facts and statistics into arguments supporting socialism, or to “…ensure broadly shared prosperity and opportunity” to use their words. Take a closer look at your link. They claim that “NAFTA costs jobs in every state”. A completely bogus statement in itself, but the funny part is that their source is “EPI analysis of bureau of labor statistics and census bureau data”. In other words, they made it up.

Maximus

“Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.” Milton Friedman


Submitted by pukenputter on Mon, 04/30/2007 - 7:09am.

I'm sorry, but all you have to do is look around you to see it isn't working. Illegals are coming here because they have been displaced in Mexico. The average wage for most non college jobs in the US is $8.00 an hour, which is poverty. A lot of college grads are walking the streets because companies are outsourcing everything from engineering to cartoon shows to India or Asia. American workers are forced to work for less, or not work at all, which means the rest of us foot the bill. Is you car cheaper now cause its made in Mexico? nope! The only people I can see that it hasn't touched are the NFL players, the hip hop singers, and the politicians. The big corporations are getting rich and paying themselves multi million dollar bonuses and you kids are stuck with poor paying jobs and a poor future. The flip of course would be if your kid became the vip at one of the corps, but that is highly unlikely cause you raised them to have values and be kind. Here is another read http://marketplace.publicradio.org/features/nafta/

maximus's picture
Submitted by maximus on Mon, 04/30/2007 - 8:45am.

Your evidence of “… look around you to see it isn’t working” is quite compelling. However, your made up data (or the numbers you got from the EPI and NPR, same thing), is not even close to reality. The average wage in March was $17.22, among non-supervisory workers. The unemployment rate of college graduates is 1.8%, and of high school grads is 4.4%. In other words, anyone who wants a job can get one.

Illegals are coming here because they’ve been displaced? Displaced by whom? They come here because even though the standard of living has gone up in Mexico over the past 20 years, it has gone up a lot more here. They come here to make more money. Like it or not, that’s not too hard to understand. They come here, like all the other immigrants from around the world, for the economic freedom that they don’t have back home.

Maximus


Submitted by swmbo on Sun, 04/29/2007 - 8:49pm.

**WARNING: RICHARD HOBBS, YOU'VE BEEN ASKING FOR THIS FOR MONTHS AND HERE IT COMES**

This was a major reason that I disliked Clinton. Anyone with half a brain knew that NAFTA was only good for very, very large corporations who could retain the tax incentives (established as a "reward" for creating jobs) while shifting jobs to Mexico. As I recall, the sales pitch went something like this: we won't have as many people illegally coming to the US because there will be good-paying jobs for them in their own country.

Of course, the biggest fallacy was in the belief that a corporation was ever going to create a good-paying job anywhere. In fact, it gave big business the best of all worlds -- people who knew nothing about organized labor, a government that thinks the word "monopoly" has no meaning beyond a gringo board game, none of those pesky OSHA safety regs that keep people from having to work unprotected from industrial machines that rip off limbs AND no minimum wage.

I remember news comentators touting the fact that NAFTA had bi-partisan support and thinking that there had to be something very wrong if both of them supported it, in spite of the fact that the nation was largely ignorant of the details and wasn't clamoring for this change.

Ultimately, the fallout from NAFTA is yet more proof that the only way we'll ever get a government that lives up to the promise of representation of the people, for the people and by the people, is to elect regular, middle-class people.

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If you and I are always in agreement, one of us is likely armed and dangerous.

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Mon, 04/30/2007 - 8:23am.

Hey, you discovered the big coverup, didn't you? All those "good jobs" transferred to Mexico---and they didn't even want them, they came here. Their middle class is performing them there.
Some people also never get it as to what hinders big business and a great economy: just what are a few missing limbs and eyes goughed out in a facory or ditch digging job if the company makes a lot of money and hires many, many replacements for the maimed and killed.
If a few hundred people get ill, or die, on e-coli Peanut butter from Con Agri, what is wrong with that if the stock goes up? Nothing.
Animals (and maybe humans) do not matter as to additatives to their food that makes them think they are eating well: the main thing is the economy created by an unfettered industry. What is a little liver and kidney failure among prosperity?
All kinda lke wars: man they produce economy and stock ups, and they are volunteers!

Submitted by pukenputter on Mon, 04/30/2007 - 7:22am.

politicians on both sides pushed it, old Ross was the only one that spoke against it. We need to let our congressmen know we don't like it and they won't stay in office if they continue to represent investors rather than the average American worker. Big corporations get their say and the average American is left out. Why? Because they are too busy and overworked to pay attention to what is really going on. I wonder who's border our kids will be crossing to find work? India? China?

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Sun, 04/29/2007 - 9:09pm.

We are on the verge of opening up our highways to Mexican truckers and trucklines. Their training and qualifications for licensing is on par with any third world country. What do you want to bet that like all the other laws the Mexicans are allowed to bypass that our Highway Safety Laws will be ignored as not to offend our Mexican brethern.

Guess instead of Merle Haggard and biscuits 'n gravy for breakfast at the truck stop it'll be burritos and Salsa playing. I need to get going on my Spanish lessons.

________

You may not be at war with Islam, but Islam is at war with you! If we lose.... They will follow.


Submitted by swmbo on Sun, 04/29/2007 - 9:25pm.

Training and licensing is only the beginning of that problem. What about the potential for an uninsured Mexican transport causing a collision? How much do you wanna bet the insurance companies are licking their chops at the chance to inflate premiums at the thought of that possibility?

But get rid of Merle and biscuits 'n gravy??! Them's fightin' words! Sad

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If you and I are always in agreement, one of us is likely armed and dangerous.

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