President’s ‘surge’ plan may have a sinister complement: The ‘goad’ option

Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:23pm
By: Letters to the ...

President Bush’s latest attempt to salvage his woefully ineffective Iraq policy is predicated upon the assumption that a rather minor “surge” in the number of American troops, 17,500, into Baghdad will prove sufficient to turn the tide in a growing multifaceted insurgent environment (at last count there were 23 separate militia groups in Baghdad alone).

One element that has not been examined in our likely upcoming “surge” in Iraq is the fact that we are about to ratchet up what is the most challenging, tactically difficult and dangerous type of warfare: combat in cities and built-up areas.

We are not looking at a town or village, but a major metropolitan area, Baghdad, with a civilian population of somewhere between 6 and 7 million inhabitants, many of whom are women, children and the elderly.

Among these millions of civilian inhabitants is an unknown number of what are generally described as “insurgents,” that is thousands of armed individuals, who, for whatever reason(s), will do everything in their power to kill American and Iraqi soldiers.

They will: not follow the general guidelines of conventional combat; be dressed in civilian clothes; not appear in military formations; use small arms and improvised explosive devices (IEDs); and, worst of all, be virtually indistinguishable from the general civilian population.

With the above scenario, our soldiers are expected to root out the insurgents while, all the time, keeping innocent civilian casualties to an absolute minimum and win the “hearts and minds” of the noncombatant Iraqis.

Do we realize just what risks our troops are about to face? They will be inserted into a truly hostile environment where virtually any of 7 million or so inhabitants could be an “insurgent” or, even more difficult to determine, an “insurgent supporter.”

What are the rules of engagement? Who is in command, Iraqi or American officers?

We are expecting one tremendous degree of a combination of patience and discipline from an American soldier in his/her late teens/early 20s who will have to determine, instantaneously, if that shadow in a window from where enemy fire came seconds ago is that of an “insurgent” or innocent civilian who may have been used as a shield.

Of course there are examples of successful combat in cities, the prime one being that of Berlin at the end of World War II. But, let us be honest; the invading hordes of the Soviet Red Army were not restrained by the same conditions our soldiers will face in Baghdad.

The Red Army was eminently successful as the rules of engagement by which they played were quite simple: if ”it” moved and was unidentified, destroy it! In addition, the German Army was outfitted in combat uniforms and easily discernible from the civilian population. Furthermore, if enemy fire were coming from a building, destroy it by any means possible.

As a last thought, try and remember just what Berlin looked like from the air after the successful “combat in cities” operation was finished: rubble!

We too are fully capable of reducing a major city, Baghdad, to rubble, but is that what will be required for “victory”? Will we replay yet another Vietnam mantra of dubious value, “we had to destroy the village to save it”? Only this time it is not a village, but a major, historic city of millions.

Is that what will be required to win the “hearts and minds” of a reduced number of residents of Baghdad?

And, last, but not least, how many more American lives will have been sacrificed with, in all likelihood, the ”mission,” whatever the latest definition will be at that point in time, still not accomplished?

Hopefully, despite the lack, to date, of an outpouring of broad-based U.S. domestic support (36 percent approve of the “surge”), this change in strategy will prove the doubters wrong and lead to a robust effort by the Iraqi armed forces and national police, backed by the U.S. military, that will set the stage for a gradual and steady reduction in violence and the growth and spreading of both economic development and democratic government.

But, if the “surge” should prove to be as ineffective as previous “plus ups” in U.S. troop strength have shown, there is yet one additional “card” to be played by the Bush administration: the goading of Iran into performing some blatantly hostile act, of which they are eminently capable, either against U. S. forces directly or U.S. regional interests.

Why, one may ask, should there be any real concern that this administration will goad Iran into acting in a manner which will lead to a direct confrontation with the United States?

Let us assume, for the purposes of discussion, that the upcoming U.S. “surge” does not lead to a lessening of insurgent combat in Iraq and that the situation actually worsens. How does President Bush react?

The chances of him withdrawing, or downsizing, U.S. forces devoted to the Iraq insurgency are, based on past actions and statements, extremely low. So how does one save the situation?

Simple, expand the area of operations by air/cruise missile attacks on Iran and cite their support for insurgent elements in Iraq and associated meddling.

The scene for the above scenario is already being set. The U.S. Central Command, responsible for the Persian Gulf region, will shortly be under the command of a U.S. Navy admiral for the first time in its history.

With the prime military activity in his area of operations being ground combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, why would one place an undoubtedly extremely qualified senior naval aviator, whose background is in carrier operations and strategic nuclear warfare (he once led the Strategic Command) in charge of what is primarily a ground war? Think of “shock and awe” of March 2003.

In addition, we are in the process of dispatching a second carrier battle group and Patriot antimissile unit to the area. Who in the area presents a missile threat?

Hint, it is not Iraq or Afghanistan. How about Iran? Bingo! Now let us get to the “goading“ scenario.

For starters, how about the U.S seizing five or six Iranians who are associated with what is about to become an Iranian Consulate in the Kurdish area of Iraq and not even tell the Kurdish or Iraqi authorities that such an event is about to transpire?

Additionally, let us start emphasizing the supposedly greatly increased supply of sophisticated weapons and improvised explosive devices to Shiite insurgents by the Iranians?

Add in a potential border incident. Another bingo! What follows is a prime-time TV appearance by President Bush informing us that, based on all available intelligence (read selective “cherry picking” of such intelligence a la the rationale for the invasion of Iraq) he has no other choice than to authorize air and cruise missile attacks on military and suspected nuclear development sites in Iran to “protect the American people.”

The appeal goes out that this was the last option that the President was forced to “unwillingly” implement and he did so with a heavy heart. The positive poll ratings for the wartime commander in chief increase substantially.

If this is considered to be totally unbelievable, consider for a moment the Tonkin Gulf Resolution of Aug. 7, 1964 and what followed; for those too young to remember: Vietnam.

Both of the above factors, the “surge” and attacking Iran, involve one common element: the Congress of the United States. There is much talk of the Democratic Congress somehow not approving funds for the ”surge.”

Forget it, the funding will be provided and the “surge” will transpire. The truly paramount issue is not the issue of “surge” funding, but that of a truly bipartisan Congress taking an early stand concerning the legality of President Bush attacking another sovereign nation, Iran, without their approval.

The most sobering fact to face is: if somehow the Congress of the United States shirks its duty concerning Iran, this nation will have the same wartime commander in chief and his unyielding certitude, until January 2009, expanding military operations in that nation, as the one who initiated our current dilemma in Iraq.

Now, if that scenario does not cause serious, widespread, national concern it takes one tremendous stretch of the imagination to think what would.

Wade J. Williams
Colonel, USA (Ret.)
Peachtree City, Ga.

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Richard Hobbs's picture
Submitted by Richard Hobbs on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 9:33am.

In the fall of 2002, in a speech concerning Iraq, President Bush's major point in dealing with the problems in Iraq was about setting up an island of freedom in the middle east that by its very existence would infect and eventually topple the tyrannical regimes that surround it. (Such reasoning recognizes that the GWOT is really a long term ideological struggle, not a conventional war). Iraq had ignored dozens of UN resolutions, effectively destroying any logical reason for having such an organization save that of funding left wing thugs and their children in food for oil programs.

The speech went over like a lead balloon, (you know, President Bush isn't smart enough to understand that it was entirely about the oil), and subsequent justifications for going into Iraq revolved around WMD, violations of UN resolutions, aid and training of terrorists, etc. But I believe the 02 speech revealed what remains the major strategic thinking of the guys in charge. We are establishing bases not just for military action, but also for the war of ideas.

In addition to setting a stage for the hopefully remote possibility of armed action against the 2 members of the "Axis of Evil", I fervently hope that we are using our positions in Iraq to provide every possible assistance to resistance elements in Syria and Iran, of which there are many. We would we idiots not to do so, but I doubt seriously that any such activity would ever get talked about.

The Iran backed Shia insurgency and the Al Qaeda and other Sunni insurgents recognize the threat that a free Iraq would pose to the tyrants of the region, and they are going all out to stop it. They recognize the potential of a free Iraq even if the western public does not.

Let me re-state that again, the terrorists recognize the potential of a free Iraq even if the western liberal public media does not.

Regarding the Colonel's opinion piece, I would suggest all liberals copy and paste and then save it for future conflicts. Its right out of the playbooks that the left uses every time we are in a conflict, and when the Public's attention span has waived. To a liberal, war is never an option. If its not the fighting in the city streets as being a reason to leave, its the fighting in a jungle; civilians will be killed; let them fight their own battles; world opinion is against us; . . . they will always find justification for not fighting, only many, like the Colonel, will wait until after the public has finally grown weary of hearing it all. Having strong public support for our Iraq effort is paramount to our fight. Liberals know that it will take time, but if they keep up the pressure, across the board, that they can help to effectively destroy that public support and thereby help to defeat the efforts we have made so far.

I'd ask the Colonel whose opinion the terrorists in Iraq appreciate more. Those of the left who want us to leave, out of fear that we might "goad" Iran into a war, or those that believe we should have the same goals as Winston Churchill had in 1940.

The timetable and measurable goals set by Churchill in May, 1940 were "Victory, however long and hard the road may be" What's wrong with that today?


AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 7:44pm.

A quote from your piece:
"...they will always find justification for not fighting, only many, like the Colonel, will wait until after the public has finally grown weary of hearing it all. Having strong public support for our Iraq effort is paramount to our fight. Liberals know that it will take time, but if they keep up the pressure, across the board, that they can help to effectively destroy that public support and thereby help to defeat the efforts we have made so far."

Spoken like a true warrior who has never risked his life for this country. I get sick of the oh so brave non-warriors like yourself who somehow try to diminish the opinions of braver men who have and do serve, yet feel troubled by our current direction. Would we be better off as a nation if we had a bunch of Bill kristols and Richard Hobbs to staff our military, or if we had a bunch of Colonels, jack Murthas, Rangels, Hagels, you know... men who actually served? I have no problem at all with the debate of ideas between combatants and civilians. We are all Americans. Our opinions all count. But when a "man" with your record of military service tries to tell a Colonel that "to a liberal war is never an option" you look like an absolute idiot! I'm trying to help you out here. You are trying to use credibility you DO NOT HAVE. Either debate this honestly, meaning admit that many of the people who feel our current stategy is flawed are not lefties, or pick up your deflated ball and your broken bat, and go home!

Kevin "Hack" King


Submitted by coachtangotango on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 8:04am.

Colonel, need to check your facts which you use to back your conspiracy theory. The new Admiral in charge of CENTCOM does not have a background in strategic nuclear warfare and was never in charge of Strategic Command. The main reason to put him in charge of CENTCOM is that its too important to put a new four star in charge of this...which is normal rotation for Combatant Commanders. ADM Fallon has had several "four star jobs" including most recently Pacific Command...check his record there in regards to China and your theory of taking on Iran (at least of him supporting such a strategy at exclusion of other options) goes out the window. Nice imagination though......

bad_ptc's picture
Submitted by bad_ptc on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 7:05pm.

Submitted by Eric Hanly on Wed, 01/17/2007 - 4:59pm.

Like the President said, it isn't going to be easy. Does that mean we just give up and hand victory to the jihadists? I'm just glad there's an 'Ret' after your name, Colonel. If the active duty army was full of people like you we would be in big trouble.
As for your conspiracy theory, take your aluminum skull cap off and try getting some fresh air. A job might do you some good too.
But I'm sure the Iranian government enjoys having you as part of their propaganda machine.

eh

AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Mon, 01/29/2007 - 11:25pm.

It's just you bring up some umm... errr... points? that are worthyish of addressing.

Question 1: How do we "hand victory to the jihadists" when they are less than 10% of the combatants in Iraq? Do jihadists know how to make Sunnis love Shiites and hold hands with Kurds? That is a new one for me, if true.

Question 2: Does "it isn't going to be easy" possibly mean "it isn't going to be possible?" Have you actually sat down, closed your eyes, and imagined being a non-Arabic speaking 20 yr old soldier going door to door in Baghdad trying to determine who are terrorists, insurgents, jihadists, and just ordinary Iraqis? I have, and that is one hell of a job title to have, isn't it?

Question 3: If provoking Iran is far fetched, did anyone invision us going to war with Iraq after Al Qaeida's 9/11 attack? But us intentionally provoking Iran is a stretch?

Question 4: The easy one. How many more Iraqis do we need to kill before they adopt democracy?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers!

Kevin "Hack" King


Submitted by Eric Hanly on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 10:32am.

You make me feel so welcome, but my doors are locked and the canine sentry is posted. He’s tougher than he looks.

To answer your multiple question post here is my multiple answer reply. Normally I wouldn’t take the time to do so since these have all been discussed ad nauseam for years, and this is an old post. But for my pal Hack...

1. The definition of jihadist that I’m using is “those who want to kill all the infidels”. Only 10%? Not likely, but even if it is only 10% why is it so far fetched for them to be victorious? All they have to do is create and maintain chaos.

2. “It isn’t going to be easy” means “it isn’t going to be easy”. How many battles are? Is the job of the 20 year old warrior made easier by all the rhetoric of people like Williams and these idiotic non-binding resolutions? Should we never engage an enemy because the outcome might not be exactly as we would hope? Should we completely revamp the military into a defense only force?

Imagine being a non-Arabic speaking 20 yr old soldier going door to door in Baghdad trying to determine who are terrorists, insurgents, jihadists, and just ordinary Iraqis. Now imagine doing it after watching John Kerry, Jack Murtha, Chuck Hagel, John Edwards, etc, etc, on CNN telling you that you can not succeed, for you have already failed, and that you are a bigger problem now than ever existed before, you murderer.

3. We aren’t goading Iran. We know that they are supporting the insurgents, which includes the Shiite militia groups, and trying to undermine any efforts to establish a democratic government. We also know that they are developing nuclear weapons. We also know that they are governed by madmen. If we are ever forced to strike back it won’t be because we goaded them in to something. Why would bush want to do that, to increase his poll numbers and lower the price of oil?

4. “How many Iraqis do we have to kill”? First see answer 2 above, especially the part about all the rhetoric not helping our warriors. Were they better off under Sadam? The mass graves are still being discovered, the infrastructure was eroded to almost nothing, the palaces and Sadam’s personal cash horde were still growing, and his iron fisted rule over every aspect of their lives was complete. Besides all that, they are killing each other. That is what we are attempting to stop right now.

Richard Hobbs's picture
Submitted by Richard Hobbs on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 1:46pm.

Eric,
Answers are not what they want, unless its in full agreement with their politics. Definitive action by President Bush is embarrassing to them because it makes them look bad for failing to lead.

From Jimmy Carter's failure to support the Shah and thereby cause directly the 'Islamic revolution in Iran in the 70's, to the quickness with which our troops are returned home, once blood shed it let, i.e. Beirut in 83 or Somalia in 97. America is lacking in Leadership and whenever anyone does attempt to lead, liberals are there to complain and whine and claim they could have done it so much better.

We have several very fundamental problems in our Country today that requires Leadership. 1.) Islamic Terrorism-which Bush is attempting to directly effect, rather than ignoring the problem like Clinton did. And 2.) Immigration, which neither party is willing to do anything about.

Liberals need to take their 20/20 rose colored glasses off and face the music, . . . to quote a couple clichés.


Submitted by Eric Hanly on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 3:13pm.

Unfortunately ignoring the problem hasn't worked with the Islamic terrorists or the border.

Gump's picture
Submitted by Gump on Wed, 01/17/2007 - 11:43pm.

Do you have any idea what it takes to become a full Colonel in our armed forces? Or how few officers are able to rise to that level in their careers? Obviously not, or you wouldn't insinuate that the Colonel is a coward, a nut-case, or a traitor. Instead of slinging mud at somebody's character, when they have already proved themselves with several decades of service to their country, why don't you try to stick to the issues?

Haven't you noticed that every General that has taken a public position that differs with the administration has been forced out or retired? Starting with Gen. Shinseki, who warned before the war that we would need many more troops than were being planned. Maybe he was a nut-case too--what do you think?

Personally, I don't believe that this buildup is a deliberate attempt to get us into a war with Iran, mainly because Sen. McCain favors it, and I respect his integrity. (another veteran who has already proved himself many times over) I think the administration is finally fully realizing the mess we are in, and is trying to get a handle on it. I hope they are successful. Right now, it's looking like a long shot. Only time will tell.


Submitted by Eric Hanly on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 2:16pm.

I don't really see where we disagree on this issue. The points have been made many times before by many people including your hero McCain. We are there and we HAVE to win.
As for the detractors in uniform, every war has had them and every war time president has had to fire some. Whether they like it or not he is the Commander. I served under Bill Clinton, for one, and though I despised the man I never would have dreamed of publicly disparaging his military decisions.

eh

Gump's picture
Submitted by Gump on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 3:12pm.

My only issue with you was with what sounded like an attack on the Colonel's personal character or integrity. But I have to also point out that the Bush administration has a track record of turning a deaf ear to anybody who gives them information that they don't want to hear, such as what happened to Gen. Shinseki before the war. Since you mention being prior military, I'll just say that I always thought that my duty was to give my supervisor the absolute honest truth as best I knew it, then follow his/her orders without reservation, once the decision had been made. (..to "shut up and color", as the saying went) You don't fire somebody for telling you the truth. But that's what it seems this administration has done to several generals over the last few years. I totally agree with firing a subordinate who is either not getting the job done, or is actively pulling in the other direction. An example of the latter was Gen. MacArthur, who rightfully got fired by Truman.

By the way, I think Bush did the right thing in letting Rumsfeld go, as his approach was obviously not working, and just like an NFL coach who fails to produce a winning season, it was time for Rumsfeld to go. At this point, we do have to win, but what is the best course to achieve that is very much up for debate. Willingness to debate the president's strategy in this forum is not the same as being a traitor. I hope that clears up what I meant.


Submitted by Eric Hanly on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:07pm.

It was debated and decided. Some people didn't like the decision and wouldn't shut up.
Even though MacArthur may have been right he didn't seem to undertstand his role, and as you point out was rightfully fired.

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 4:51pm.

Too bad we can't fire Cheney, the real "mastermind" of this oil fiasco.
The army does not give their boss the absolute truth. They fumble around for the PC answer unless the president has listened to enough of them to be trusted.

Submitted by myword_mark on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:07pm.

You make the absolute most bizarre statements I have ever read anywhere in a majority of your blogs.

You are without question, completely blinded by hate for all things Bush.

You constantly advance black helicopter theories and claim to be a John McCain supporter.

But what astounds me the most is you do all of this without any facts to back any of it, as if you somehow know something the rest of the world does not.

In this one little blog you state that we are involved in an oil fiasco constructed by Cheney (that alone would let Bush off the hook), you accuse the Army of being PC (what about the Air Force, Navy, et.al.?) and then accuse them all of lying to their ‘bosses’ (which is completely ridiculous) and finally you state your usual “the military is not to be trusted”.

Geez dollar, it’s a good thing we have you to figure out all of this conspiracy stuff. And to think my time in the Military and College was all for naught!

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:19pm.

I know nothing about black helicopters? I trust the army (includes the Navy, etc.) just not the generals and the pressure they put on subordinates to lie.
Bush knows what Cheney does.

Submitted by myword_mark on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:42pm.

I gotcha now *wink *wink.

Git Real's picture
Submitted by Git Real on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:40pm.

Enter Here [________________] the theme to the "Twighlight Zone"


Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 6:12pm.

That's the best I can do for the twilight zone. But you nailed that call Git. He's a mess.


Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 2:41pm.

And welcome home - I served under Carter among others so I feel your pain Eye-wink


Submitted by Eric Hanly on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:08pm.

I started off under Carter as well. It was not a good time for the military.
e

AF A-10's picture
Submitted by AF A-10 on Mon, 01/29/2007 - 10:37pm.

We haven't been properly introduced. I'm Kevin "Hack" King, one of the few real name users on the posts. Don't get the wrong impression about me by the way I bit@h slap Dick Hobbs on the posts. He's done some past race-bating that has caused me to not care for him as a human being. So much for that "For whom the Bell tolls" stuff about each of us being a part of the whole. I've divorced the Hobb's part of this collective.
Anywho, you will come to love me, I'm sure. Hunt and peck around, as I have addressed some of the issues you raise where you have raised them.

Let's take the above "Carter" reference: I am one of a family of many veterans stretching back to WWII and hitting every battle since. When you say military life under Carter "was not a good time", what exactly do you mean? Does it pale in comparison to the GREAT FUN we are having now? Did President Carter so completely populate Walter Reed Army Medical Center? Did the military suicide and financial insolvency rate under Carter compare at all to what we see now? Did we populate Haley Houses and Fisher Houses under Jimmy Carter?

I just need some clarification, that's all.

Cheers,

Hack


Submitted by Eric Hanly on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 9:51am.

The Carter reference was about the military’s complete lack of readiness and operational capability (except maybe for a hostage rescue or something like that), low morale and high drug use. The purpose of the military is to destroy our enemy not provide a welfare program, which is what it was during the 70s.

Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:10pm.

That may well be the understatement of all time.

"First There"


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Wed, 01/17/2007 - 7:11pm.

If five years in Afghanistan and Iraq where the countries are far worse now than before we got there isn't enough to prove an ill-conceived plan which now can not be saved without a million men on the ground, then happy Viet Nam! One dead Saddam doesn't help.
What we need is for more Colonels and Generals to say their mind even if they don't have the retirement designation. I know that they would have to retire, but they should. Country before pension.
As in Viet Nam we never lost a battle in Afghanistan or Iraq, but we did not have the where-with-all to hold what we won.
Iraq won't be a threat now for many years and we should get out. Even when and if Iran and Syria want to occupy the place, let them. Then they can have the religious idiots instead of us.
We should not have gone with so few.

Submitted by Eric Hanly on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 2:31pm.

First you say Afghanistan and Iraq were better off before we liberated them, then you say we should not have gone with so few. Which is it?
Btw, what does dollaradayandfound mean?

Submitted by myword_mark on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:14pm.

I see you asked our beloved “dollar” what his moniker means.

Well, as you have probably already discovered it is ancient Greek for “hears black helicopters sent by George W. Bush and big businesses”

And that is coming from a (former?) Democrat. Run Bill Richardson, Run!

Submitted by Eric Hanly on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 6:23pm.

Thanks for the explanation. I knew that cowboy bit was a bunch of malarky

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 3:19pm.

First choice: Leave them to their own troubles. Don't go, just pin them down.
Second choice: If you must go, go to win, and occupy.
As to dollaradayandfound: I regret some of us know so little of our American history. Cowboys in the 1800s worked on the trail for a dollar a day and found (or available food and shelter that he could find).

Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:24pm.

History like "don't cut and run" (Vietnam), "Peace in our time" (Neville Chamberlain) or like "give me Liberty or give me death" (Patrick Henry)?

Oh, you mean like when the Cowboys gave up and let the indians or Mexicans kick the sh#$% out of us at Custers Last Stand or the Alamo?

Or do you mean like when we let Japan kick our as^%# at Pearl Harbor?

I'm confused.


Submitted by Eric Hanly on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 4:58pm.

dollar,
Thanks for the history lesson. I didn't even know the NFL existed in the 1800s. Was Tom Landry the coach when they only paid a buck a day? I think they get more than that now.

e

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:02pm.

There were also Cleveland Indians in the 1800s. They mostly stole and didn't work much. Kinda like Vick.

Submitted by myword_mark on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:19pm.

... and big oil. That's why the military is stealing the queens jewels. To fund the raiding of toombs in the antartic. The military tells Bush Jr. where the queen oif England is and Cheney calls a press conference with her. Then Vick sneeks in and steals for Bush. We need to get out now before the military tells the truth and they catch Haliburton with their hand in the jewelry jar.

doallaradayandIfoundablackhelicopter

Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 7:57pm.

This is your best: Vick steals because if Bush, etc. But, remember
secretly, in Iraq, we have been storing all of the oil pumped there in big holes in the ground. A pipeline is being built through Turd territory in the North, to Turduckin, where we will pick it up in Constanoble (or is it Istanbully?).
Halliburton has nothing to do with this oil line nor the queens jewels---only Cheney's family jewels.
The antiartic is melting so fast now that it is unsafe to tomb dig there anymore. Northeast Alaska is being used, instead. This is where the Navy and Coast Guard and Air Force come in on this deal.
The army won't go to north Alaska. All of their grease freezes up.
I used to work at the pentagon in the plans department but they said I was always coming up with something that might work and they let me go. They gave me my pension so I left.

Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Wed, 01/17/2007 - 8:01pm.

Here you go again: "If five years in Afghanistan and Iraq where the countries are far worse now than before we got there isn't enough to prove an ill-conceived plan which now can not be saved without a million men on the ground, then happy Viet Nam! One dead Saddam doesn't help."

Aside from being nearly incoherent, I find your statement to be ridiculous. Do you sincerely think that Afghanistan and Iraq were better off before we got there? As for me, "give me liberty of give me death". You sir, are no Patrick Henry.

I won’t even bother to list all of the atrocities that Saddam Hussein is responsible for. I will say that you may be the first person in history to proclaim that people are better off under a mass murdering dictator than a democracy where people can determine their own destiny. Nouri al-Maliki may not be in complete control, but he is no dictator and mass murderer. Do you ever wonder why no matter how often the insurgents bomb people lined up to get jobs as police, they just keep on lining up to serve? As for me, "give me liberty of give me death". You sir, are no Patrick Henry.

We took a lot longer than five years to settle our country and you expect Iraq to be transformed in less than five years. Your thinking parallels that of the democratic leadership that, in my opinion, is clearly wrong for our country, for the Middle East and for economic stability.

As for Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, the first democratically elected president of Afghanistan might take exception to your statement as well. Prior to him, the Taliban and Mujahideen were killing men, women, and children who disobeyed strict Muslim Law in public executions. They were the 13th century enforcers that demanded all of the occupants of Afghanistan follow strict madrassas teachings or suffer death. As for me, "give me liberty of give me death". You sir, are no Patrick Henry.

Soccer stadiums became concentration camps and death houses. Summary executions were publicly performed on dozens of people at a time for crimes ranging from being a Christian 'infidel' to women exposing their faces in public. But now they actually play soccer in them and have a national team that can lose without being beheaded. You know dollar, maybe you think they were better off, but they sure as hell don’t. As for me, "give me liberty of give me death". You sir, are no Patrick Henry.

Perhaps you should back of your rhetoric, take your meds, and then do a little research before you decide that the people who survived the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were better off before we arrived. As for me, "give me liberty of give me death". You sir, are no Patrick Henry.


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Wed, 01/17/2007 - 8:35pm.

Do you sincerely believe that Afghanistan and Iraq will be a true democracy within the next thousand years? Their heritage isn't geared for democracy and I think we know it. We wanted a stronghold in that area to control the oil as much as possible, and we are there to stay, somewhere. We can afford many thousand deaths and several legions of maimings, plus maybe a million Iraqis and Afghans dead and wounded over the next 20 years.
You sound like Rumsfeld: they will eventually great us with rose pedals and just do everything we say forever and ever. Not going to happen, we didn't occupy enough and hold it; it is as simple as that.

Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Wed, 01/17/2007 - 9:04pm.

Dollar, what I said was your statement that it would take a "million" troops and that they were "better off before" was ridiculous.

We (including you) don't know what they will be 1000 years from now - that is up to them.

Are you aware that we lose more college students from suicide than we have lost in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last five years?

In fact, we lost more college students to suicide in one single year than we have lost since the Iraq invasion began. We have lost about 3000 people in the conflict this far, and 14,000 to 20,000 will die from drunk drivers this year. At the current rate, it would take approximately 25 years in Iraq to lose as many citizens as we will lose to drunk driving this year alone. Do you want to talk about how many are killed by illegal immigrants each year in the USA?

I don’t doubt your concern and I can’t change your mind; however, we are now there and in my opinion we need to "finish the job" by giving the new government adequate time and a chance to take advantage of the first opportunity for democracy they have ever had.

In my opinion of course.


Submitted by dollaradayandfound on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 9:01am.

The middle ages saw MILLIONS of christians and muslims killed by the crusades. also. WWl, WWl, saw millions more. Six million jews and others were slaughtered in the 30s and 40s. Also, every human who has ever lived since the earth has existed has died, with the exception of the ones curently alive! So what could 3-4 thousand killed and 25,000 maimed (so far) of ours (200,000 of theirs) possibly have to do with stopping this dumb thing?
We have already antaganized the entire world with our stupidity and will pay for that forever, in my opinion.
What do you think is going to happen there? Suddenly they will see the light and do everything we want and we can come home? No way.

Enigma's picture
Submitted by Enigma on Thu, 01/18/2007 - 9:44am.

Agreeing that we should not be in this position is fruitless. We shouldn't be but we are.

Bottom line: we are in Iraq now, so what do we do? We simply disagree on where to go from here


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