For once muddle, I absolutly agree with you. Very good comments regarding compensation for police officers. Great job, Muddle( If indeed that is your REAL anomymous screen name---).
Father David Epps

I appreciate that.

And, yes, it's really me--the perpetually anonymous muddle!

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My granddaugher, Amelia.

Fins and PTC80:

Why is PTC's Receation budget so high compared to all these other places? Well, how many fields and parks do all these other places have compared to PTC? Economies of scale - if they don't have as much as we do, then they don't have to budget as much to take care of it.

I'm sorry that the populous requested and got what they wanted with parks and recreation and libraries...I don't hear a groundswell of citizen support to say "I'll raise my taxes so City employees can get a 7% raise again". They did say, "I'll raise my taxes to build a new library". Your voters told you what they wanted.

And, PTC80 - the reason the union was formed was precisely for the perceived "loss of benefits". Budget cuts are a fact of life unless the City can somehow get more money...taxes need to go up. Who else is going to back me on that one? Who is willing to tell the council that? Crickets...crickets....

Funny - the police has no problem putting somebody on a computer all the time to catch online predators. Why not put those people on patrol - what's more important? We sure seem to be doing a job that others might be able to do for us (how many "predators" have we caught from PTC?). It's just a matter of priorities.

What's more important?

"And, PTC80 - the reason the union was formed was precisely for the perceived "loss of benefits". Budget cuts are a fact of life unless the City can somehow get more money...taxes need to go up. Who else is going to back me on that one?"

Wow, you said something intelligent - mostly. It's not a "perceived" loss of benefits, those are real dollar signs behind the smaller checks that employees are receiving. Sure budget cuts happen, that doesn't mean that workers can't protest the city's practice of balancing the budget on the backs of employees. Lastly, YES, increasing taxes is a good idea. However, the council and mayor are bunch of coward politicians (like most), who are too afraid to do the RIGHT thing for the city, and the city's future, because they might irritate a few linear thinking voters and not get re-elected.

"Funny - the police has no problem putting somebody on a computer all the time to catch online predators. Why not put those people on patrol - what's more important? "

Awwww, too bad. You said something moderately reasonable, and then you had to go and blow it with this statement. The hard facts are against you on this one. The Chief has been quoted multiple times speaking about this very issue. He clarified that there is only ONE employee who ever does this work, and it only takes about "20%" of her time. That seems like a reasonable investment to me. I don't know what the cash-value return is on catching somebody like that, but if there are fines imposed I'm sure that even further offsets the already low cost.

If there are fines imposed I'm sure that even further offsets the already low cost.

The City never seems a dime of any fines that might be imposed, which I don't believe is the case, as these are all state court offenses. The offenders go to jail and become sex offenders and get deported or go back to OTHER counties than Fayette.

My take is still that there are other agencies (FBI, GBI) that can do this job. That "20%" is 10 weeks a year of patrolling.

Employees deemed outstanding used to be rewarded with 5 percent merit raises plus 2 percent cost-of-living raises. "Fully satisfactory" employees got 2.5 percent merit raises.-FROM THE AJC

The only 7 percent I see is if someone can get an outstanding, which may be difficult to do, and the COLA.

Now:
outstanding —- will get merit raises of 1.5 percent, 3 percent and 4.5 percent.-FROM THE AJC

As for the officer sitting in an office, there's only one. Maybe you don't have children, but I worry about these people on the internet talking with my family and trying to get them to come meet them somewhere for God knows what.

You won't raise your taxes for them to raise the employees salaries and benefits, but the money that could be used for those salaries and benefits could come from all of the useless things that the city has done with the Tennis Center ldebt, the new golf cart bridge, and all of the pretty little things and pet projects.

Look around you for crying out loud, the taxes here are lower than the national average. They are lower than the local average and that fact is hurting us.

Priorities should be the safety of the community first. Anarchy would prevail without people there on the front lines to protect us.

All the police cars? How many openings are there for new officers? We have 7 or 8 and cannot get anyone to apply for the job because the pay is so low and the benefits are getting worse.

We need to get on our knees and thank God that idontknow isn't on the city council! When employees like our police officers, firefighters, etc. watch their benefits get cut and job duties expanded, and then they have to watch the mayor pay a million bucks (without approval from the constituents) for a bunch of illegal crapola, and then watch the mayor brag in the newspaper about wanting to double his salary, they deserve to be pissed off. Every taxpayer in this city should be pissed off.

The fact that idontknow has a problem with our police apprehending adult men wanting to contact our young girls on the computer to later rape or who knows what else, is a sure sign we don't need to pay attention to a darn thing he says.

Idontknow's support, in another post, of council member Rutherford's verbal attack on a senior citizen in the audience - who by all accounts on this site did nothing to deserve it - is yet another indication of his cruel nature.

A lot of people are sick and tired of the idontknows and Direct PAC's of this world. I'm sure Mayor Logsdon is making all of you on the dark side very proud. It's been one heck of a year.

Vote Republican

I don't think I said that PTC police are bad for what they are doing (btw, I'd like Cal to ban thebigguy for a blatant personal attack saying that I would be compared to an online molestor, but I'll hold my breath - I'm sure I'll be banned AGAIN before that happens).

What I stated, and what you obfuscated, was if it's more important to have officers on the road, we can let the GBI and other agencies handle the internet crimes and get back to the crux of policework.

Does Fayetteville have an Internet crimes unit? How about Tyrone? The sheriff's office? Nope. That's my point - look at what we REALLY need. Do I believe recreation is important? Nope. But the voters seem to - when we put the library expansion to a vote, the majority said "sure, raise my taxes".

In the end, people who are afraid of opinions want them silenced. What are you afraid of, SRG? A debate of the issues on their merits instead of on sad emotional arguments and subterfuge?

So, have a wonderful day! And Cal, please ban thebiggun or at least let him know I don't appreciate being called a child molestor.

As they say the guilty dog barks the loudest. Now you decide to ask to ban someone that is asking you a direct question. Everyone on this blog knows that you are unstable with your comments. As to what other police departments do has nothing to do with Internet Safety. But as small minded as you are, you don't seem to understand that. I said nothing that was not true. If you defend not catching them, you support them. Simple as that. When I decide to call you a name, I will. You can bet on it.

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As for police work, you have no idea what police work is because if you did, you would not have made the bone headed statements you just made. No one on this end is afraid of anything you say because your words are like a dead mouse on the floor. Just need to pick them up and put them in the trash can. I tell you what, why don't you get on MY Space, and find a crowd of people that you can try to be the big man with. Might just feed you ego better then on these blogs. What a loser you are. Get a life.

I must have missed that in all the vitriol...would you mind restating it?

I don't defend "not catching them". I defend using our resources to go after the most important things. There are MANY departments that are NOT going after Internet predators because they don't have the resources to do it.

Sounds like PTC may wish to reconsider that....being on the front page of the paper or on TV may be "cool", but what does it do when you've got OTHER crimes still happening?

My position is simple - taxes should be raised to improve the standing of not only the police, but ALL City employees. Would you support that?

I do believe that idon'tknow is a guy

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Vote Republican Always And Forever

Everyone seems to be avoiding the REAL topic here. What are we, as citizens, going to do when all of our good cops up and move to a city that pays better and has better benefits. I like knowing that the men and women looking after my children and I are well educated professionals. It sounds like Chief Murray is loosing officers because City Hall is cutting benefits and pay. If they reduce the standards to bring in cops that are not applying now because they are going elsewhere, what kind of cops are going to get in stead? Has there ever been a situation where a PTC cop was sued for sexual harassment, beating a suspect, no. None that I know of. So mayor cuts the PTC cops budget and still throws money at the recreation department to solve the problem. According to him, if he doesn’t the crime rate will go up. How much is City Hall paying to install the air conditioning in the bathrooms at all the soccer fields? Where are the priorities? You tell me idontknow, which is more important? My families safety or the fact that little Johnny can go potty in an air conditioned bathroom after running around on a soccer field for an hour? What’s more important, our ability to sleep in peace at night, or pavement at Mead Field? Obviously City Hall feels that the Recreation Department’s needs should come first.

I was at the meeting, too, and you sure do have an amazing power to take three sentences in a 90 second statement discussing "non-internal issues" regarding the "loss of benefits" to mean as much as you're trying to say.

I never once heard the chief, or any other department heads, asking for money - The concern was how much money was getting taken away, and for what.

I guess you don't consider additional staff and supplies and new trucks and other things "asking for money".

All the arguments I heard from the city employees (police included) were just trying to hold onto what they've got, and not sacrifice their benefits to pay for over-hyped recreation projects.

Holding on to a perceived entitlement that certainly isn't the norm in government? Ask any of your government worker friends if they are eligible to get a 7% a year raise? Ask them how much they have to pay for insurance and how much does the City pay?

And can somebody name these "over-hyped" recreation projects? I'm not sure people can substantiate that with facts...

"take three sentences in a 90 second statement discussing "non-internal issues" regarding the "loss of benefits" to mean as much as you're trying to say."

No, as I said, I base my statements on all of the information available to me. This includes, among other things, the several previous meetings I've attended, as well as several articles about ones that I have not.

"I guess you don't consider additional staff and supplies and new trucks and other things "asking for money"."

In the context of this conversation, no I do not. You started an argument regarding the union's intentions, and related it to requesting more pay - and that's what I meant by money. So I am correct in that statement, the chief never requested pay or benefit increases of any kind. They did ask for 10 police cars to REPLACE ones that are leaving service. They also asked for a few new police officers to help cover the increasing call volume from the PTC's rapid expansion from the West Village and Kedron Village phase II - as well as to help answer the community's requests for golf cart path patrols.

"Holding on to a perceived entitlement that certainly isn't the norm in government?"

If by "perceived entitlement" you mean a continuation of the benefits that led one to accept an already underpaid job in the first place - then yes, I think it's reasonable to be upset when somebody tells you it's being taken away or degraded. I also think you'll find your facts regarding benefits from other agencies to be quite untrue if you take the time to compare apples to apples. I can't remember the exact numbers, so I'm sure somebody else will quote them for me, but it came at one point that Senoia, Fayette County, and some other agencies were getting COLAs from 3-6% (and that doesn't even include standard performance based evaluation increases). That's only a local comparison of course, if you want to compare based on type of city, then you have go further out, but I'm sure you'll find their compensation to be quite similar to PTC's. If you want to compare apples to oranges, then I'm sure you can find some State employees or something that don't get these things. Whoop tee do. They took that job knowing that. The Peachtree City city employees took a job in a city that they can't afford to live in with the expectation of the compensation terms agreed upon when they were hired. They, like anyone else in any profession anywhere, have a right to protest the degrading of their benefits - whether YOU agree with it or not.

"And can somebody name these "over-hyped" recreation projects? I'm not sure people can substantiate that with facts..."

$80,000 to create a second entrance to Riley Field
$100,000 to put air conditioning in bathrooms at rec fields
$22,000 to keep the Clover Reach pool open - even though it only had like 40 registered users last year.
$600,000 to create another senior center
--- That's just a few that I could think of off the top of my head. I'm not going to bother elaborating further on the Recreation spending vs. other city departments, I think FINS already did a great job of quoting some numbers on that - and I think the discrepancy there is a probably a more resounding answer to your question than what I had to say.

You're missing the point - but I'll answer you anyway. Those were all things discussed in council meetings, as I said prior to the above reply, I'm not going to waste time trying to find you every single number and every tiny detail - so my bad if it's an "expansion" instead of another one... big deal. As I understood it from the last meeting where it was discussed, that was part of this year's budget. Sure, I don't know what exactly it's for, planning or building or what, that's not the point. These things go on forever, and I can't possibly keep up with everything that finally got approved or disapproved. IF the senior thing is not in the budget this year, then my mistake. Apparently you have a much more inside track on the city's functions than I do - or an incredible amount of time to spend keeping up with that kind of information. Why do I get the feeling it has something to do with where you work....

More importantly, as I said before, the greater topic is the spending differential discussed by FINS and some others - not how many recreation projects I can remember the details of off the top of my head.

Funny, Google and visiting the city's website can give you everything you'd ever need. You have the same tools at your disposal that I do, so it's not really "inside information". But try to blur the issue...and I was thinking the same thing about your interest in this being something based in your job position....hmmmm...

I just don't like folks who attempt to confuse the populous by distoring the facts, so I take the time to research them and know what I'm talking about.

Don't throw out the "facts" unless you know what you're talking about!

And you keep going back on the spending differential - that's what the people want. Why would they vote in a multimillion dollar library expansion?

I think you're of the opinion that we benefit one government department by punishing others, and I'm of the opinion that we try to benefit ALL departments if it's possible. They're BOTH important to Peachtree City.

The whole reason I made that comment was because I could not find the rest of those details on google - or the city's website. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think so. If you've ever read a post I've made before you know that I always look up as many of the available facts as possible when responding to people like you. You say I'm distorting facts, but all you've had to say that undermines any statement I've made is that you don't think the senior center expansion is in this year's budget. That's not distorting facts, I couldn't find a hard copy of the budget hearing agenda where that was discussed, nor any written disposition regarding it. The entire argument in this thread is because of you throwing out information when you don't know what you're talking about - so don't try and turn the focus to me. On top of that, you just accused me of talking about things I don't know about, but you claim to know "what the people want". Wow, that's pretty amazing. I don't see any figures anywhere to back that up - and please don't even try to argue that people voted this council into office on that platform - because they did not. The citizens voting for the library expansion does not mean that they believe our city should be lopsided on all of it's spending. I was pro-library, but that's just one topic. Lastly, no I don't think we need to benefit one department by punishing others - I do think that's very near to what's happening right now (thus the differential I brought up) - but that's not the point. I bring that up because I don't think it's what's best for the city, and I care because I plan on living here for a long time with my family and I want Peachtree City to stay the wonderful place it was when I moved here. I appreciate that recreation is important to the community, and it's one of the reasons that I like the city, but so is the low crime rate. I agree that having a higher than average recreation budget in a place like Peachtree City is integral to maintaining some of the city's attractiveness, but at some point you can go overboard with that - and I believe it has happened. We're really getting off topic from what this discussion started about - but on the issues not related to the union we're really saying alot of the same things - just in disagreeable ways. There's really no point in continuing to drag this out so I'm done.

(by the way, I'm glad the edit button works again - what happened to it the last few days? I tried to edit my post that started this portion of the argument right after I made it, and it wouldn't work)

Um....well...

$80,000 to create a second entrance to Riley Field
Last year's retreat - multiple citizens complain about noise and crowds for football and cheerleading at Riley Field. Concerns about drainage and parking lead city to consider alternatives. The $80,000 is for parking improvements to help traffic not crowd up onto Wisdom Road and to make sure that rainwater does what it's supposed to.

$100,000 to put air conditioning in bathrooms at rec fields
I still haven't seen this one anywhere...someone might want to throw a specific quote out there from a reliable source, like something published in the paper or on the City's website with a date or something...
$22,000 to keep the Clover Reach pool open - even though it only had like 40 registered users last year.
I believe that the Recreation director said they had increases in attendance last year. By the way, all the pools lose money - should we close them all?
$600,000 to create another senior center
Um...this was to expand the existing senior center, not build a new one. And I don't think that money is in this year's budget. I think the council stated they could get some initial design work to bring to groups to help the seniors RAISE the funds and that the City was going to wait to see how the First Baptist Church community center got built and use that for programming.

But please, don't let the facts get in the way of your story!

I agree that city employees don't get paid enough. I also, however, know that times are tough all around - ask your friends at Delta how they're feeling now. Or call over to your friends who used to work at Ford or GM or had a tech support job that's not there anymore. Facts are times are tough, and the "promises" that might have been there aren't concrete. There are no contracts in municipal rank-and-file employment, so enjoy what you can.

The union, by the way, doesn't have to be recognized by the City. Ask the Fire Department how their union is doing....I think they've had one for a while (from what I remember reading in one of the letters to the editor about a year or so ago). In my opinion, it's a bit foolish, but good luck to 'em!

you would think the bank and the devlopers would be paying him enough, now he needs our money too...

The officers here are a cut above the rest. It seems as though nobody notices the difference between our guys, and every other city I have ever lived in.

I have lived here many years and I have never ever heard of one police brutality case.......ever.......this alone speaks of the quality officers we hire here. Quite frankly I don't know how they do it.....dealing with idiots like bladderican't drive , and idon't haveafreackingclue.......I don't know how they hold it together without punching, ooooppps I mean accidently "seeing these idiots trip on their own 2 feet"(accidently) I would last about an hour, and then Chief Murray would have to fire me after the last parent said "not my angel" Puuuulllleeeeessseee I don't know how you hold it together, when dealing with people like bladder Ididn't do it.

Do any of you remember what the Atlanta City Council was dealing with Wed Nov. 29th? While we were having our "special payoff, ooooppps, I mean "meeting", yeah, that's it. The Atlanta City Council was also having a special meeting, to deal with the unfortunate event of the shooting of a 92 yr. old women.

Everytime I get pulled over in Atlanta I swear the officer is going to hit me......they are soooo angry.....that is one thing we don't have to worry about here. Our guys will never let you go with a warning.....but they won't hit you either.

We need our cops more than they need us. The fact that crime is up, even though the recreation budget is over by 250%....speaks volumes

Even though many kids have been arrested and put away amazingly enough you people find a way to produce more destructive violent brats. As soon as one goes to juvie, you people have got 4 more on the paths causing vandalism. They are like termites coming out of the woodwork......I have never seen anything like it. Is it the water, do we have a factory here whose sole purpose is to create destructive kids?

You are one of the 3 old maids, you and dollar and armymaj. Who are you kidding.
Hey by the way spotted you tonight as you blew throught the stop sign at Peachtree and Crosstown, the car with the kids yelling and screaming in the back.....one was screaming COPTER out the window. Awesome ride.....

You don't follow the post. My kids drive and are being harASSed by the college educated professional accredited police department. I was actually at the Knott waiting for Harold to buy him a beer for knott reading the small print in the TDK contract.
I think armymaj will take umbrage mentioning me w/ him.

with all of the money oooopppps... I mean christmas gifts he recieved.

I wrote: I was actually at the Knott waiting for Harold to buy him a beer for knott reading the small print in the TDK contract.

Once again I want to say all the time I have spent at the 'knott, I have actually never seen the Harold there.

He has only done what he said he would do. Ya'll elected him. To quote Popeye (& Harold), "I am what I am and that's all that I am."

It must be urban myth, I don't hang out there so I don't know.

He really hasn't done what he said he would....because he raised our taxes, which he needed to. I wrote him letters asking him to raise our taxes.....and I'm asking for the same this year.

It is a foolish foolhardy plan for ANY politician to promise no tax increase....

I guess you would have to ask Pres Bush I ("Read My Lips") about that one. JEFFC might want to chime in here about 'Line Item Veto'. I guess it would be best to have a plan before you take office before you make a pledge.

With the cost of living going up every year, you as a politician will have to raise taxes everytime.....and it is foolhardy to say that you won't.

Hey jerk it is nice to see you finally crawled out of your hole for more police bashing. You are a worthless and any law enforcement supporter that reads your anti police bashing, hopes one day you finally get yours at the end of a police night stick. Do us a favor and go away. Go away mad like you always do, but please just go away.

Your reply seems much more angry than any I have ever posted. To refresh your memory; I was ticketed, went to court and actually WON. I do admit I have told one of the college graduates (& I applaude and appreciate their level of intlligence & professionalism, as I have dealt w/ lower forms of; shall we say, "education"), "I didn't know having a law degree was a requisite for employment?"
I did find it offensive when the pilot, several years ago, told the cop his car cost more than he made.

"I do admit I have told one of the college graduates... "I didn't know having a law degree was a requisite for employment?""
So, I'm guessing English isn't your native language. No offense intended, but what you wrote doesn't really make sense (especially with the question mark). Even if it was worded correctly, I'm not sure what kind of point you'd be trying to make by saying something like that to an officer. I'm not insulting you, I just honestly don't get it.
By the way, what is this ticket you say you won against? And lastly, I saw on another thread that somebody stated bladderq is your real last name - any truth to that?

Everyone is silent to the numerous good that unions have done for employee groups who have elected union representation.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of union success stories which you won't hear from many on these "the needs of the business/corporation" boards. But a few examples:

-Maternity and paternity leave are the products of unions in concert with the ACLU. So many feel "civil liberties" by definition are evil. As a family first, then job type of guy, I will not hang my family out to dry to satisfy a boss. my family comes first. Before maternity leave became the norm, working women were forced to make a choice: Give up the critical bonding in the first weeks of your infant's life or risk losing your job; not a very "family values" position for companies to take was it? Thanks to the efforts of unions, mothers (and fathers when necessary) can use leave time to help their children's early development. And please save the "should women work" argument. My guess is single moms will answer, "yes, we should and we MUST."

-in or around 2000, a major airline determined that a non-union employee's mandatory urine sample was diluted (low creatine levels). This, according to company policy, was justification for immediate termination. Never mind that immediately prior to the random test she had consumed copious amounts of water on an international flight. The union represented this non dues paying, non member pro bono (hardly seem like leeches) and won this woman's job back. She was a woman with 0 history of drug use or criminal activity.

-The miner's union has been fighting for mining safety for years. Mining companies, concerned with the "bottom line," have been slow to innovate and integrate safety equipment into their daily operations. The consequences of this resistance are evident with a review of recent history.

-Unions fight to keep truckers from driving beyond reasonable hours, pilots from flying fatigued (or hung over ), and other employees from working beyond reasonable, arbitrated limits to balance productivity with safety.

There are certainly abuses and inefficiencies in any bureaucracy, but let's not be one-sided with our arguments. This is one time I don't mind the "Fair and Balanced" monicher. If we are going to complain about Americans wanting and receiving cost of living increases, we must start with our politicians and yes, our military, all of whom receive tax-payer funded raises year after year (and I thank you all!)

Cheers,

Kevin "Hack" King